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Thread: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

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    Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Hi all... here is the press release..

    This will certainly shake up the MF business...

    Press Release
    Gothenburg, January 21, 2014


    Hasselblad set to launch world’s first medium format CMOS sensor camera


    Hasselblad is set to launch the world's first 50MP medium format camera using CMOS sensor technology. The groundbreaking H5D-50c will go on sale in March.
    Ove Bengtson, Hasselblad Product Manager said: "This pioneering 50 megapixel CMOS sensor camera is based on our H5D-50 model but will offer a faster capture rate; longer shutter speed capability and much greater ISO performance. It will provide greatly improved Live Video in Phocus and will also be available with Multi-Shot functionality."

    He added: "We believe this will provide a highly compelling option for professional photographers who prefer a more versatile camera that enables them to immediately embrace a wider range of photo-disciplines but still encapsulating the exceptionally high-end image quality associated with Hasselblad."

    Hasselblad's new CEO Ian Rawcliffe said: "We are extremely excited about this highly adaptable new camera which will offer an even broader palette of shooting options for our high-end customers.

    "This is a world-first and underpins Hasselblad's status at the forefront of camera technology. It will be the first of a number of medium format capture innovations we have planned for the coming months."

    Further information and prices for the new H5D-50c models will be announced in March.




    (This press release will be available for download at the Hasselblad Press Lounge later today)


    Corporate Communication & Public Relations Department
    Hasselblad | 385 Centennial Avenue, Centennial Park, Elstree Herts, WD6 3TJ, UK
    Telephone: +44 (0) 20 8731 3254
    Email: [email protected]
    Hasselblad Press Lounge | Hasselbladusa.com
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Interesting ! If I read between the lines, no live view "in camera" ? Wonder why that would be ? Perhaps it's such a battery hog ? Or hardware / temperature limitations ?
    I hope this puts Hassi back in the MF business - after all the Lunacy.

    I am a P1 user, but competition is good. Very good.

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Yes, this does make one wonder what Phase will have at Photokina.

    However the press release only states: prices and more info available in March as I read it. Also seems at first Live view is via phocus which I believe would mean tethered at least during this version.

    Things are changing for sure. Curious who made the chip, Sony? if so it might put more realism into the 54MP 35mm chip that Sony supposedly has coming. I realize a MF chip is much different but some of the manufacturing fab may cross over.

    Times are changing for sure.

    Thanks for the info.
    Paul Caldwell

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    If any of the cryptic rumors are true, the sensor is a new type of CMOS invented by Sony. We'll see.

    Also, on the Hasselblad news release site, there was a photo of a H camera with the headline "The Rumors Are True" … the camera looks like it is all black … but it's difficult to tell from the lighting.

    That the new camera will also be offered in Multi-Shot is also quite interesting.

    - Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If any of the cryptic rumors are true, the sensor is a new type of CMOS invented by Sony. We'll see.

    Also, on the Hasselblad news release site, there was a photo of a H camera with the headline "The Rumors Are True" … the camera looks like it is all black … but it's difficult to tell from the lighting.

    That the new camera will also be offered in Multi-Shot is also quite interesting.

    - Marc
    Marc,the partnership with Sony seems to be making sense now,I expect this sensor to have great DR and good high ISO,there have been rumour's of it being CFA free,either way I am really looking forward to seeing the files.

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    The OP's quote says The groundbreaking H5D-50c will go on sale in March. Hasselblad learned a hard lesson when it took over nine months to bring the H4D60 to market, so I do not think that will happen again. Prior to the last Photokina, I thought Hasselblad would introduce a larger than 35mm full frame rangefinder that would use the current lens lineup. The new Sony sensor could make that happen. And, I think Sony is capable of manufacturing the camera, as well. Now, I have good reason to believe that camera is on the horizon prior to this year's Photokina.

    Greg

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    And there was me thinking it would be 18 months or so before a CMOS MFDB appeared !

    '...improved Live Video in Phocus...' - hmm, I really hope there is a DSLR equivalent live view on the DB itself (without having to be tethered). If there is, the whole thorny issue of focussing (high precision rings, ultra-fine helicals etc.) goes out of the window. What a breath of fresh air ! At one stroke, cameras like the Linhof Techno, A/S ML-2 etc. will come into a league of their own.

    As ever, I suspect pricing will folow the flawed model of 'reassuringly expensive' ... and end up the wrong side of $40k ... ho, hum.

    Jim

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Sweet. That 'bout says it all if lives up to expectations.

    "Dear Santa, if y'all don't mind I'd like an all-black H5D-50C with a 100/2.2 & 35-90. Oh, if you could toss-in a new Profoto Hassy TTL AiR remote (why not?) i'd be grateful"

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Would all those who said that Hasselblad were finished and had abandoned MF when they launched the Lunar and Stellar please put their hands up?

    Thanks very much.

    Nick-T

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Great news!

    But I am afraid of the possible price tag

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Very exciting news and they seems to have more interesting things to present later on.

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Bildifokus View Post
    Very exciting news and they seems to have more interesting things to present later on.
    They do

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Pleased to see Hasselblad getting their mojo back. Hopefully the Lunar escapades will fade into memory as just a revenue generating exercise and they'll get their credibility back where it belongs with their excellent medium format and digital offerings.

    Even though I'm a Phase One shooter (albeit I do own a 503CXi), I'm really glad to see some new churn and activity in the MF digital arena. It's good for all of us.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    I can't see a post like this and not quote myself from back on 17 Oct 2013. I am glad Hasselblad is coming back. I shoot Phase as well but competition makes everyone better and Hasselblad is fighting back.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/542918-post6.html

    17 Oct 2013

    "In all honesty, I think Hasselblad has something up their sleeve probably being the first to introduce CMOS based MF(probably with a Sony made chip). They didn't really have an answer to the IQ line and something tells me they chocked up their losses on that generation and are moving to the next generation while trying to make a few bucks on a Sony contract that none of us agree with."

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    I just wonder how many of those that say that they want competition and are hoping Hasselblad succeeds actually demo'd a Hasselblad camera and considered it before buying a Phase One back.

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    My guess is that it is what they say, live view tethered only. I would guess they've done mimimal changes to the current H5D-50, just to be able to deploy and be first with a CMOS product. A DSLR-like live view in the DB itself is likely quite a large development effort, possibly requiring extra pieces of special circuits. It will eventually come for sure, but maybe not until H6D(?).

    I'm also is very excited to see what the sensor can do in terms of tech cameras. CMOS sensors often have really really bad color cast issues with low angles, meaning that even the (weak) retrofocus Rodenstock wides could be problematic with this back. I hope to be proven wrong about this, but I've set my expectations low.

    To work great with tech cameras we'll need low color cast, and good high ISO in live view. Even if we don't shoot at high ISO it must be there so it can present a live view with reasonable refresh rate in varying lighting conditions, so it can actually be used for focusing. A heavy vignetting symmetric wide angle with small aperture and center filter (eg SK35XL) will certainly not provide the same focusing experience as a f/1.4 Zeiss Otus on a Sony A7R. But it could possibly be "good enough" and a step up from ground glass.

    Although I'm quite confident in handling ground glass focusing, I would not hesitate ditching the sliding back and ground glass and just compose and focus on live view as I do with my DSLR. As you say it could be a game changer in the tech cam space, greatly increasing the popularity of view cameras.

    I doubt this camera back can provide that, but hopefully it's a step in the right direction.

    Concerning pricing my guess is that it will be more expensive than the H5D-50, but not so much, probably cheaper than the H5D-60. We'll see . If it's becoming extremely expensive I wonder who's going to buy it. CMOS with its high ISO can be a cost saver, you can work with simpler lighting and be more all-around etc, so I think making it super-expensive would be like cancelling out the advantages it's supposed to provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    And there was me thinking it would be 18 months or so before a CMOS MFDB appeared !

    '...improved Live Video in Phocus...' - hmm, I really hope there is a DSLR equivalent live view on the DB itself (without having to be tethered). If there is, the whole thorny issue of focussing (high precision rings, ultra-fine helicals etc.) goes out of the window. What a breath of fresh air ! At one stroke, cameras like the Linhof Techno, A/S ML-2 etc. will come into a league of their own.

    As ever, I suspect pricing will folow the flawed model of 'reassuringly expensive' ... and end up the wrong side of $40k ... ho, hum.

    Jim

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I just wonder how many of those that say that they want competition and are hoping Hasselblad succeeds actually demo'd a Hasselblad camera and considered it before buying a Phase One back.
    What's your point?

    If hasselblad hadn't been so closed and proprietary with their later H versions then they might have had a better opportunity to appeal to folks who would like to mix and match gear. I think that they somewhat shot themselves in the foot by shutting out other backs from the bodies plus I still couldn't live with an external battery pack for tech cam use.

    In the meantime, I genuinely believe that competition and innovation is good for everyone,
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I just wonder how many of those that say that they want competition and are hoping Hasselblad succeeds actually demo'd a Hasselblad camera and considered it before buying a Phase One back.
    Yes, I loved the viewfinder!
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    too bad we can't just piggy-back an A7 on the blad/phase body and use that for a "viewfinder" only.

    or maybe hasselblad will add focus mag and peaking to complement the live view

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Sensor size will be interesting, likely 44x33, similar pixel size as a7r, or closer to 47x39. Full frame seems unlikely with that pixel count.

    Maybe 44x33 and significantly cheaper than the current h5d-50? Could be a great camera for wedding photographers.

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Sensor size will be interesting, likely 44x33, similar pixel size as a7r, or closer to 47x39. Full frame seems unlikely with that pixel count.

    Maybe 44x33 and significantly cheaper than the current h5d-50? Could be a great camera for wedding photographers.
    A version based on a scaled up D7100 sensor would be very interesting,full 60mp size chip would contain approx 158mp. ;-) (based on 3.7um)

    The H5Dc is just the start,there will be more to come..

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Was about time for CMOS coming into MFDB. Although all my Hasselblad gear is sold (and I probably will never get int MF) I appreciate that finally Hasselblad starts leading again.

    Will be interesting when Leica and Phase will follow?

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Interesting news, and hopefully the sign of a new direction. This from dpr:

    "This development comes weeks after Hasselblad was reported to have quietly replaced its CEO, Dr Larry Hansen. He was the man responsible for the tie-up with Sony that created the Hasselblad Lunar and has been replaced by former chief operating officer Ian Rawcliffe. It is unclear whether the change of management spells the end for the Hasselblad Lunar and Stellar cameras."

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Was about time for CMOS coming into MFDB. Although all my Hasselblad gear is sold (and I probably will never get int MF) I appreciate that finally Hasselblad starts leading again.

    Will be interesting when Leica and Phase will follow?
    I think that it is VERY premature to think that Hasselblad is leading anybody and everyone else following based on the information so far. Let's see the goods before making proclamations like that.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 21st January 2014 at 18:59.
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Everyone knows Hasselblad needs additional revenue to survive. They way they tried to attain that goal with the Lunar was flawed in every sense of the word and at every level. Larry Hansen had to go, and he did so months ago (very quietly).

    Leica set the example for marketing other cameras under their brand, so it should have been a model for Hasselblad. And, even using designers could have put a Hassy spin on it. Maybe, after all the ridicule, Hasselblad has come to their senses and will use their partnership with Sony to bring groundbreaking products to market.

    Greg
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    I doubt that this camera was a last minute development, or a signal that they have come to their senses. It had to be a parallel R&D effort in tandem with Sony. Sony is getting really aggressive with sensor development, and the new stuff they all ready have working models of is jaw dropping tech … with the last hurdle being cost containment. Be interesting if some of that made it into this camera.

    Live View in-camera may have its own set of issues given the power requirements and existing battery of the H5D, and/or heat issues.

    Be great if it was the same size sensor as the current 50, and not crop frame like the H5/40.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by BANKER1 View Post
    Everyone knows Hasselblad needs additional revenue to survive. They way they tried to attain that goal with the Lunar was flawed in every sense of the word and at every level. Larry Hansen had to go, and he did so months ago (very quietly).

    Leica set the example for marketing other cameras under their brand, so it should have been a model for Hasselblad. And, even using designers could have put a Hassy spin on it. Maybe, after all the ridicule, Hasselblad has come to their senses and will use their partnership with Sony to bring groundbreaking products to market.

    Greg
    1. Unless you are Hasselblad's banker, I don't understand how you know whether the Lunar has been a financial success or not.

    2. I find the Leica model of limited edition cameras in grotesque colors and exotic materials equally offensive.

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I think that it is VERY premature to think that Hasselhlad is leading anybody and everyone else following based on the information so far. Let's see the goods before making proclamations like that.
    Well, my statement was WRT finally we have one of the MFD players getting CMOS in - which will be the future till any other technology comes up maybe ....

    So I am happy that Hasselblad is doing this, as they were not too successful in the past years and actually could really need such a boost.

    And YES - I am convinced that CMOS meanwhile is better than CCD - but actually I do not care for any religious discussions - simply use what you like to use best.
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    No religion from my side. If it takes Sony throwing their hat in the ring with a partner like Hasselblad then it's good all ways around. Heck, my favourite long term camera is an XPan II (I've had three and I'm not selling again!) and that was produced by Fuji but in conjunction with Hasselblad. Ditto the Zeiss and Fuji glass they use. If it works I think all of us will embrace it.

    I just want to see a real camera with a real sensor with real software before declaring it nirvana. I'm sure that the Lunar/Stellar was a well intentioned part of the Sony partnership (and Hasselblad cash cow) but it really hurt Hasselblad's credibility IMHO.

    (Btw, lest anyone think that I'm an H hater, I would FAR FAR rather gone with an H system for my Phase One backs than the Phamiya DF/DF+. In so many ways it's a better DSLR IMHO)
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    1. Unless you are Hasselblad's banker, I don't understand how you know whether the Lunar has been a financial success or not.

    2. I find the Leica model of limited edition cameras in grotesque colors and exotic materials equally offensive.
    1. The financial success of the Lunar is not my issue as much as the clearly ugly and EXPENSIVE camera. Equally offensive was the squandering of their rich heritage to hawk a clearly overpriced and ugly camera.

    2. I could care less about colors. I can choose to buy any color I want, but really the choice should be about the quality of the images it produces.

    Greg

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by BANKER1 View Post
    1. The financial success of the Lunar is not my issue as much as the clearly ugly and EXPENSIVE camera. Equally offensive was the squandering of their rich heritage to hawk a clearly overpriced and ugly camera.

    2. I could care less about colors. I can choose to buy any color I want, but really the choice should be about the quality of the images it produces.

    Greg
    Giving a pig a Prada handbag doesn't make it a Gisele Bundschen. (Not that the Sony is a pig btw). At least Leica dressed up what was already regarded as their premium camera and whatever cosmetic changes didn't come with a 10x price increase, plus let's be honest they were immediately collectible and almost without exception went Up in value.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Damn... now if they'd just make a new inexpensive 24(ish)mp large-chip camera for the rest of us (with the new tech and body), they'd really be on to something (for those of us who want the MF look but generally post all of our work in the digital domain and only print large on occasion)... . Glad to see Hasselblad potentially coming back into the fold!
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by BANKER1 View Post
    1. The financial success of the Lunar is not my issue as much as the clearly ugly and EXPENSIVE camera. Equally offensive was the squandering of their rich heritage to hawk a clearly overpriced and ugly camera.

    2. I could care less about colors. I can choose to buy any color I want, but really the choice should be about the quality of the images it produces.

    Greg
    Really? You said that Hasselblad needed/needs revenue to survive (that's unusual), and the Lunar strategy was flawed in every respect. Well, if they are making millions selling them, I can think of one respect in which the strategy is brilliant.
    My sense is that Hasselblad is just following the lead of Leica. Selling cameras as collectibles to people who really aren't buying them for serious photography. However, I could care less. This is a free country. You make a ton of money legally, buy whatever you want and do what you want with it. If it helps a camera manufacturer finance the R&D for the products I care about, all the better. How can that be a bad thing?
    BTW, do you have a NEX 7? I do. Very nice image quality.

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I think that it is VERY premature to think that Hasselblad is leading anybody and everyone else following based on the information so far. Let's see the goods before making proclamations like that.
    I agree. Completely. Let's see and test real shipping products before jumping to conclusions about how much of an advance this camera really is over the CCD offerings now available. After all, if hasselblad 's implementation of Live View is anything like My IQ180, we can all have a good laugh!

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    It is going to be a very interesting few weeks.

    PhaseOne IQ250 coming soon with a.... new 50MP CMOS sensor | Photo Rumors

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    How can that be a bad thing?
    Destruction of brand credibility, potentially hurting its sales in the long term. If they make obviously over-priced pimped versions of yesterday's camera technology, at least I start to doubt their honesty, which in longer term can hurt the view on their medium format cameras.

    I hope that the Lunar turns out to be a financial fiasco so they'll stop murdering their brand. Hopefully not so bad financially that their are brought down on their knees though.

    I'm a Swedish citizen. Sweden is a very small country and we feel pride of our internationally known companies, so it hurts to see Hasselblad do something that surely makes Victor Hasselblad turn in his grave.

    However, this new release of a real camera with new sensor technology in their MF range is very good news indeed. Maybe the rumoured IQ250 will steal the show anyway, we'll see. My guess is that it will be as usual, IQ250 will be substantially better digital back (with proper live view, battery in the back, etc), but the H5D-50c will be cheaper and (arguably) mounted on a better camera body.
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    By the way, I assume "I could care less" is american english for "I couldn't care less", right?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCUsPnKD1gk
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    By the way, I assume "I could care less" is american english for "I couldn't care less", right?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCUsPnKD1gk
    I only knew a rant by David Mitchell, which now seems kind of a rip off.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    I was thinking the same thing and trying not to comment. Then failed ;-)

    Take a look at this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw

    Sent with respect and affectionate amusement :-)
    Ed Hurst, www.spiffingpics.com
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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Didn't see your post before posting mine

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    By the way, I assume "I could care less" is american english for "I couldn't care less", right?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCUsPnKD1gk
    Right.

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post

    I'm a Swedish citizen. Sweden is a very small country and we feel pride of our internationally known companies....

    Maybe the rumoured IQ250 will steal the show anyway, we'll see. My guess is that it will be as usual, IQ250 will be substantially better digital back.
    You really show your cultural "pride"!

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    I am sure Phase One will have a followup. and more than likely the same brand of sensor or maybe Dalsa has figured out how to make CMOS in this size.

    If you have a Sony chip in the this upcoming Phase, then it's fair to expect:

    1. Amazing DR at base iso, same as the Sony 36MP chip in the current A7r and older chip in Nikon D800 family. This should produce impressive files at base iso, (50 I assume) with a 2.75 range or close as this is what you can get with the Nikon.

    2. Longer exposures at your whim, no need for special iso 140

    3. Possible end of need for sensor plus as again based on current Sony modern high MP chips, you should see iso 1600, easily and possibly 3200 at full resolution.

    4. Color issues, CMOS to CCD, maybe, but I don't see that much difference in my work between CMOS (Nikon) and Phase 260

    5. 50MP vs 60MP not that great a gap IMO especially if you get Live view on the already excellent Phase One IQ LCD screen

    It's fair to say photographers on the fence for a 260, may now postpone any decisions for a while.

    Paul Caldwell
    Paul Caldwell
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    www.photosofarkansas.com
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    It is going to be a very interesting few weeks.

    PhaseOne IQ250 coming soon with a.... new 50MP CMOS sensor | Photo Rumors

    This is absolutely exciting news!

    Cannot wait till Leica announces the CMOS bases S camera
    Life is an ever changing journey
    http://photography.tomsu.eu/
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    You really show your cultural "pride"!

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by JeRuFo View Post
    I only knew a rant by David Mitchell, which now seems kind of a rip off.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
    Texting must drive the man to distraction

    Oh, BTW, Dave, it isn't America … it is the United States of America. Canada is also American. So is Mexico and all of South America :roll eyes:



    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    This is absolutely exciting news!

    Cannot wait till Leica announces the CMOS bases S camera
    I can wait if its anything like the color out of the M240, with banding at 3200.

    I'm also not in a huge rush to shell out for another $22,000+ body

    However, I am absolutely sure the next S will be CMOS.

    - Marc

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Oh, BTW, Dave, it isn't America … it is the United States of America. Canada is also American. So is Mexico and all of South America :roll eyes:



    - Marc
    So when your Presidents begin their addresses with "My fellow Americans,...", they are all wrong, every time? Jeez, you'd think that with all those highly paid advisors and speech writers, the White House would have got it right by now.

    Ray
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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I can wait if its anything like the color out of the M240, with banding at 3200.

    I'm also not in a huge rush to shell out for another $22,000+ body

    However, I am absolutely sure the next S will be CMOS.

    - Marc
    Maybe by then they will have worked out those issues. I guess those of us who own an M will know first hand as the firmware updates continue to arrive....and maybe they'll lower the price point again. $17k? One can dream!

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    Re: Hasselblad CMOS 50 announced

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    So when your Presidents begin their addresses with "My fellow Americans,...", they are all wrong, every time? Jeez, you'd think that with all those highly paid advisors and speech writers, the White House would have got it right by now.

    Ray
    But we aren't the one's striving correct anyone … U R

    If we don't have the correct word or phrase needed, we make one up … Time magazine's Henry Luce was famous for this … so was Yogi Berra … and even our own Guy Mancusio

    To quote Yogi in my defense … "I really didn't say everything I said."

    So, "It ain't over until it's over"

    - Marc

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