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Thread: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

  1. #51
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Large sensors is both good and bad for low light photography. Good thing that you get more area to gather light, bad thing you need to stop down more to get reasonable depth of field. Probably the 36x24mm sensors with f/1.4 lenses is a better tradeoff for low light photography than what we have here, although 44x33 is not *that* much larger, but the availability of fast lenses is limited.

    This widens possibilities though and we've not yet seen where this new capability will bring medium format.
    The cost/benefit of 44x33 over 36x24 just got even harder to justify. For the extra real-estate, the camera/back combo is slower, less user friendly and costs 10x. Unlike previous CCD vs CMOS debates, the sensor tech is essentially the same Sony sensor in a larger format.

    If/when we get a CMOS sensor with 24-30fps LV, 55x40 real-estate, fully usable on tech cams, good ISO to 6400, 60-80MP, lets talk

    BTW, the back is available for sale on Monday, but Phase has not tested performance on a tech cam yet? How does this make any sense?
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    What I am wondering, is why Sony developed such a sensor ?
    - They are just a chip provider, and they thought it would be a good business (i.e. they think they can sell enough MF chips just as a chip-maker)
    - They have their own MF system in the works, and they also sell chips to other manufacturers (as an "extra"), like they do for their other (smaller) CMOS chips.
    Interesting times...

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I guess everyone's needs are different.

    I've been doing this for six years now and the top three feature complaints I've heard from people who were considering buying a back were:
    1) crappy LCD
    2) poor ISO performance
    3) no live view

    Phase One basically eliminated #1 with the IQ series. It's that good.

    Phase One improved #2 and #3 with the IQ series. They got good ISO1600 and ok ISO3200, but only at reduced resolution. They got Live View but it's fairly slow, and doesn't handle low or contrasty light very well.

    With the 250 #2 and #3 are very well handled.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you - if you don't need or care about ISO then it won't mean anything to you. I was just trying to explain why I think I'll continue getting the massive volume of "I'm interested" email that I've seen in the last hour.
    Doug, these advances would have been really impressive 4 years ago. Now, it all seems like a day late and a dollar short. The LCD, the high ISO performance and the Live View appear to be much better than what was previously available in medium format, but are not really state of the art. I sort of think when I am spending $35,000, I should get BETTER than the Sony A7R, not worse. Moreover, big surprise, this all comes at the price of a 1.3X crop factor.
    Phase and Hasselblad better hope that Sony doesn't drop a sensor of this size into an upscaled version of the A7R with a new line of Zeiss lenses.
    hcubell
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    The cost/benefit of 44x33 over 36x24 just got even harder to justify. For the extra real-estate, the camera/back combo is slower, less user friendly and costs 10x. Unlike previous CCD vs CMOS debates, the sensor tech is essentially the same Sony sensor in a larger format.

    If/when we get a CMOS sensor with 24-30fps LV, 55x40 real-estate, fully usable on tech cams, good ISO to 6400, 60-80MP, lets talk

    BTW, the back is available for sale on Monday, but Phase has not tested performance on a tech cam yet? How does this make any sense?
    Fundamentally, I agree with you. However, when you consider that most published images are cropped closer to a MF ratio than a 35mm ratio, there is a lot bigger gap jumping from 39MP to 50MP as it's more like a 32MP to 50Mp jump. It will also be interesting to see if the MF designers are able to extract more quality data from each pixel.
    Different photographers are going to have different perspectives on what this new back brings to the table. I suspect the wedding/portrait and fashion shooters are going to be all over it, whilst the ultra-wide/tech-cam wallahs are going to go "so what?". As an architectural pro who also shoots landscapes and nudes for the love of it, I can't see that I will ever move to a smaller sensor than my IQ180. As it is I shoot over 90% of my images on my 23mm and often wish I had an 18 or 20mm. I routinely shoot at 35ISO without any drama, so whilst I'm excited that the MF-CMOS hurdle has been crossed, I'm not reaching for my wallet yet. What I REALLY want for Christmas is a replacement for my DF which overcomes all its shortcomings. Sadly, I guess we have to wait till Photokina for that.
    Siebel
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    There is no question Schneider wides are out of the question. But which Rodenstock lenses, with how much movement, can be used is still an open question...
    That's a real shame. Moreso given the 44x33 size - the popular R/S 40mm (actual focal length ~42mm) now effectively becomes a 51mm lens (wrt its behaviour on an IQ180), probably with restricted movements. The hugely expensive R/S 32mm (actual focal length ~33mm) now acts like a 40mm (wrt its behaviour on an IQ180), again probably with limited movements. Maybe the Digaron-S's are the answer, but it looks to me like this DB is one for the SLR users out there.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    My desire for an IQ260 just went up. Weird...

    --Matt
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    That's a real shame. Moreso given the 44x33 size - the popular R/S 40mm (actual focal length ~42mm) now effectively becomes a 51mm lens (wrt its behaviour on an IQ180), probably with restricted movements. The hugely expensive R/S 32mm (actual focal length ~33mm) now acts like a 40mm (wrt its behaviour on an IQ180), again probably with limited movements. Maybe the Digaron-S's are the answer, but it looks to me like this DB is one for the SLR users out there.
    The answer is the Canon TS-E's on an FPS.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I guess everyone's needs are different.

    I've been doing this for six years now and the top three feature complaints I've heard from people who were considering buying a back were:
    1) crappy LCD
    2) poor ISO performance
    3) no live view

    Phase One basically eliminated #1 with the IQ series. It's that good.

    Phase One improved #2 and #3 with the IQ series. They got good ISO1600 and ok ISO3200, but only at reduced resolution. They got Live View but it's fairly slow, and doesn't handle low or contrasty light very well.

    With the 250 #2 and #3 are very well handled.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you - if you don't need or care about ISO then it won't mean anything to you. I was just trying to explain why I think I'll continue getting the massive volume of "I'm interested" email that I've seen in the last hour.
    You're right, everyones needs are different. Personally, I don't think the LCD of my P30+ is that bad . In fact I think it's great (you even can turn it off)! And so is the ISO performance of that back. I cannot complain the least.

    BUT (especially at that price point) I'm a bit disappointed because I had hoped for much greater improvements over a back that is seven years old. The fact that sensor size is no improvement over the P30+ either just contributes to this feeling.

    Anyway, I hope you'll be selling a lot of these backs. Perhaps someday there will be enough money for Phase Ones R+D to develop a sensor larger than 645 film...
    http://maxkissler.com/
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    I'm a little surprised at the level of negativity about the new back. I'm sure that for it's target clientele - the MF DSLR pro user who wants a truly flexible MFDB solution - it'll do very well. That silent majority isn't typically hanging out on these forums.

    Kudos to Phase One on a major update of the platform. I hope that there's a ripple back to we IQ2 "classic" users in terms of firmware updates, wifi fixes and general reliability improvements.

    Now just get on and develop a bigger sensor that's more SK tech camera lens friendly!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    One interesting thing about the IQ250 is the pricing.

    It's clearly intended to replace the IQ140 (which is being dropped), and yet the price increase is (relatively) astronomical.

    IQ140's are, what - $20K new?

    The IQ250 is I believe $35K.

    How's that trade-in going to work I wonder?!

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I'm a little surprised at the level of negativity about the new back. I'm sure that for it's target clientele - the MF DSLR pro user who wants a truly flexible MFDB solution - it'll do very well. That silent majority isn't typically hanging out on these forums.
    pdnonline has a review up of the IQ250. Read the summary of the Live View on the IQ250: not bad in a pinch, but not very useful for assessing sharpness, and certainly nothing that would make you forget your DSLR.
    For $35k, many of us expect more, not less.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Lets see; Phase delivers the first MF CMOS back that has been promoted by forum posters as the new "holy grail" to save MF with modern ISO ect................................

    And we have it received with derision for not being enough.

    Wow. Tough crowd.

    Don't worry, the golden cow of MF will show one day, followed by complaints that it is plated and not solid gold.

    Granted I am still shooting with the obviously useless, archaic, too small (33x44) and just plain ridiculous with the release of the fabulously superior D800e, Aptus 65s; I have no room to talk.

    I personally think this is pretty exciting. A true alternative, large sensor back in the word of medium format. Not just an "improved" CCD, but something new!

    A catalysis for a new camera capable of harnessing the advantages inherent in the CMOS structure.

    Sure beats adding fancy wooden handles to my WRS.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    I'm probably in a minority of one
    but - limited tech cam use (tilt/swing specially) and limited wides, means i'm still waiting for Santa ..

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    I wonder how Hasellblad feels today

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    I'd love to see this on a H2 with 100 f2.2 or with the Mamiya 80 f1.9 and used for some milky way landscape images
    Rick Rose
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I have to disagree with that conclusion.

    In deeper conversations with Phase One R+D the answer will NOT be clear until further testing is done. That's rather why they mention they'll be doing testing I reckon. Light falloff is expected to be worse than with the IQ180 but color cast will likely be better. Again - testing is needed.

    We'll likewise being doing testing.

    There is no question Schneider wides are out of the question. But which Rodenstock lenses, with how much movement, can be used is still an open question. But one which we will answer soon .

    This is not a conclusion, but more of an initial statement to let our clients know to keep their technical camera expectations low. The sentences following reflect that we are not concluded and will be doing our own testing. Keep in mind Dave Gallagher wrote this top 10 at the end of a 23 hour day on an airplane, so....impressed it was as cogent as it was.

    We've actually slightly modified this statement, so it reads "may not be an option" just to be more clear in our position.

    https://captureintegration.com/phase...mp-cmos-iq250/


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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by JonMo View Post
    ....
    Sure beats adding fancy wooden handles to my WRS.
    Whoa, them's fighting words!

    Actually, I think the IQ250 may be ideal for the photographer who isn't yet in the medium format digital fold, as opposed to those already with MFDBs. It seems to offer a broad range of capabilities. Overall, kudos to Phase and Hassy for offering something new. After all, having choices and different capabilities is what is important in photography, imho. I really don't want a jack of all trades (master of none).

    Hey---where's the voice activated phone capability on the IQ250? It'd be sorta nice to be able to order a pizza and have it ready at the conclusion of my shoot.

    I'm happy with my IQ180 and don't see myself moving from it for the long haul. But it's hard for me to be critical of the IQ250 when I haven't seen what it can do in practice, and not just on paper. I'm hoping we have an IQ250 at CI in Carmel to actually put through the paces on both a Phase DF+ and technical camera.

    ken

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post



    Hey---where's the voice activated phone capability on the IQ250? It'd be sorta nice to be able to order a pizza and have it ready at the conclusion of my shoot.


    ...


    ken

    See, you guys laugh about my Alpa iPhone viewfinder but guess what it can do? Yup, voice activated pizza delivery on demand! Ken, you need look no further

    Ditto on the MFDB needs. The IQ250 looks great but for now the IQ260 fits my needs better since I'm not replacing all my wide technical camera glass to Rodies any time soon.

    The thought of high ISO for night shooting is appealing but not &35k appealing unfortunately.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    The back it self is an nice piece of technology, imho!

    Pair it with a DF+ and it's capabilities in terms of action and low light shooting are limited by the af system.

    Pair it with a tech cam to use it's nice live view, and you will be limited by light falloff and color casts.

    It's not made for me, but a good step forward, i think... maybe.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Now just get on and develop a bigger sensor that's more SK tech camera lens friendly!
    Amen to that!

    Peter
    Last edited by Pemihan; 24th January 2014 at 12:15.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    I see the 250 as very much like the older P30 only on steroids. Much better resolution with the ability to shoot faster. This is very much a back for those who either don't know what a tech camera is or just doesn't care. Sure we might be able to shoot it on a tech cam with limitations. My general thought is that if you don't shoot with a tech cam and need the ability to shoot fast in low light (weddings come to mind) then this is a huge step up from a 35mm.

    There's no way there's ever going to be a one-size-fits-all camera so we need to stop looking for it. If it fits your needs then go for it or look for something else that will fit most of your needs; notice I say needs not wants. I need a camera that'll all me to shoot in all weather and switch back and forth between platforms (645 & tech). I want to be 20 years younger and have more hair....
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    .... I need a camera that'll all me to shoot in all weather and switch back and forth between platforms (645 & tech). I want to be 20 years younger and have more hair....
    I can help you with one but don't know what to do about the other.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    As posted above, tough crowd.

    What I am interested in is what price the Pentax 645D will be. Phase at $35K and Hasselblad close to that, if Pentax gives another 10K camera with lots of stuff people already have on their 35mm/APS DSLRs, I am not sure how that is going to bode for the market. Especially if the DF is not getting a face lift.

    Interesting times.

    Actually, I am really quite optimistic about MF CMOS sensors. Sony has a way of making good sensors and making them cheap. This is a first step.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerimar View Post
    I'd love to see this on a H2 with 100 f2.2 or with the Mamiya 80 f1.9 and used for some milky way landscape images
    Exactly!

    I started working in low-light, low-noise digital imaging in 1992.

    That same year, I started shooting medium format, with an M645 1000s and an 80/1.9. Astrophotography being my main passion.

    I have waited TWENTY TWO YEARS for these technologies to finally come together!! Today could well be that day.

    Ah...I wish I could be the one who takes that first IQ250, equatorially tracked, dark sky exposure or stack. I mean, I could really put it through its paces...I have a superb equatorial mount and direct access to very dark skies; see below for the sort of thing I do with a 5DII, and want to do in MFD. But alas, my wallet is not as deep as many around here, so that honour will fall to someone else. Just share the result with us, please, whoever you are.

    Which is not to say that I don't have reservations about this new product. Is the IQ250 perfect? No, nothing is. OK then - rephrase the question - is it as good as I was hoping and reasonably expecting? No, it falls short there too. This is a Sony CMOS sensor which is a little larger in area than their 35mm FF sensors. It should be operated in exactly the same manner as those sensors, just scaled up accordingly. But it isn't! There is no provision to opt out of the in-situ dark frame, which just kills your productivity in the long exposure regime.

    That is a huge disappointment, and it was a completely unnecessary design decision on the part of Phase One. Could I remind readers that even the primitive DSLRs and DBs of 10-15 years ago had a menu setting, which allowed the user to toggle between darks always off / darks on above a certain exposure time / darks always on. It's as simple as that.

    Ray

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    My harsh take:
    IF (like me) you prefer a 2:3 frame ratio, this camera has slightly higher pixel size than D800 or A7r, the same DR, and on the long end will give enough extra pixels to print 1-3" longer depending on print resolution. But you'll have to use it on a Phase body and with lenses that have no IS, not my idea of fun, or on a technical camera but not with you lovely landscape wides...

    That's how it stacks up against my needs at first sight. I'm always willing to be persuaded otherwise...
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    You are being very patient, Doug. Good job.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    This is not a conclusion, but more of an initial statement to let our clients know to keep their technical camera expectations low. The sentences following reflect that we are not concluded and will be doing our own testing. [...]

    We've actually slightly modified this statement, so it reads "may not be an option" just to be more clear in our position.
    Just for clarity I was disagreeing with Jai's conclusion. Your post was clear indicating more testing was required.

    We can race each other to do the testing - everyone will win.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by jsf View Post
    You are being very patient, Doug. Good job.
    You don't get to 2200 posts without developing tough skin!

    Product launches, whether for Phase, or for Apple, or for everyone else is always an interesting study in human dynamics. You will never, ever, find a product launch where the consensus is "it has everything we'd want, and the price is exactly what I want to pay".

    Look back to early threads about the original iPhone announcement to see a study in a product which sold like bonkers, opened an entirely new market for a company, but which was predicted to fail for lack of any number of specific features or for being too expensive. (note: I'm NOT saying the IQ250 will be on the level of success of the iPhone, that would be silly - just using it as an extreme example on the spectrum of "chatter" vs "reality" at the launch of a product.)

    As Abraham Lincoln said "You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

    My only regret is posting a crop of one file processed to my taste - it's a poor way to show off the high-ISO quality on this back. We have D800 vs IQ250 high ISO comparisons which I find favor the IQ250, and in general I can tell you that I (and I can only speak for me) will be very happy using ISO6400 on the IQ250 for my wedding shooting. But it seems best at this point to wait until Capture One 7.2 is out, our demo unit is in the office for testing by us and our clients, and we can share raws rather than processed-to-taste very small crops from very large files.

    I'm flying out shortly and will be on a plane for 16 hours, after which I will be spending some quality time with my wonderful girlfriend whom - 10 days in HK (a nice place, but obviously far from home) has left me longing for a nice afternoon walking through Central Park, cold though it might be.

    I'll see you all after the weekend. We'll have our demo unit next week and I can't wait to see what some of the extraordinarily talented photographers on this forum will do with it.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    You don't get to 2200 posts without developing tough skin!
    You can actually get a higher post count if you don't…
    Will

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Sounds interesting and knew it was coming but did not expect its features or non features. Have to wait to try it before commenting too much.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Now, one thing I would be interested in is color. There seems to be a trend to weaken the Bayer filters to get better signal. The downside is color fidelity. I get much better color from my 645D than my RX-1--both have nice color, just prefer the 645D. Whether that is this Bayer filter thing, I am not sure as there are more factors that could be going on here.

    The other interesting thing is an engineer from Pentax about a year ago in an interview expressed a wish to make a mirrorless 645D. Well, with CMOS, this is possible. Hard to say whether it was wishful thinking or a slip of the tongue. Ricoh has very deep pockets, far deeper than the competition. Mirrorless MFD is an interesting idea. Not sure if I would be totally on board, but interesting nonetheless.

    The 50MP is really not a real jump from 40MP--12% increase in linear resolution. I'd rather 40MP and keep the pixel area and save filling up my hard drive so fast. Photography is light dependent, it is not plagued by it. This tiny pixel rush is not impressive. No matter how you slice it, it is easier to count photons in bigger buckets.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sounds interesting and knew it was coming but did not expect its features or non features. Have to wait to try it before commenting too much.
    I just hope they put in Sweep Panorama!
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Well not full featured live view like a Sony A7 or Canons/Nikons makes me wonder . But it's Gen 1 so will see
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    My harsh take:
    IF (like me) you prefer a 2:3 frame ratio, this camera has slightly higher pixel size than D800 or A7r, the same DR, and on the long end will give enough extra pixels to print 1-3" longer depending on print resolution. But you'll have to use it on a Phase body and with lenses that have no IS, not my idea of fun, or on a technical camera but not with you lovely landscape wides...

    That's how it stacks up against my needs at first sight. I'm always willing to be persuaded otherwise...
    I was wondering when someone would bring up the different aspect ratios. I'm in the other camp as far as 2:3 is concerned and find it fine for landscapes but typically too tall for portrait shooting. I'm far more comfortable with 3:4 ratio (actually I prefer square but that doesn't get you far these days!) and the 2:3 traditional DSLRs such as my Nikons don't quite gel.

    When it comes to resolution comparison I think people will need to compare like for like using the same aspect ratios on both cameras.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Here's hoping the specs that Hasselblad release are different, in the sense that I live in hope that that their offering is more tech camera, wide lens and movement friendly. How knows, they might have their sensor specced differently to achieve different end results? I doubt it, but I cross my fingers…

    Considering I can't afford to buy one anyway, it's a little unfair for me to comment; but I was hoping for more here. I was gunning for true full frame 645 and focus peaking with live view. In other words, the ultimate back to aspire to that I could bolt onto my Linhof Techno. It's fair to say that I still dream of the IQ260, but the future should hold exciting things if they can build on this.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Phase mentioned that the IQ250 has been thoroughly tested for the past few months. I would guess that means that Sony probably delivered the sensor to them over a year and a half ago. I wonder what is sitting on their desk for the IQ3… I am still waiting for the right replacement for my IQ180 and I haven't felt the pull yet.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    What's needed for us tech cam fans is that Sony becomes interested in developing CMOS that has wide angular response. I don't think that exists yet. May require radically new design with millions of dollars in development cost.

    Small sensor compacts would gain from it as it would make wide angle lens design simpler lighter smaller and sharper, so it's not impossible sony would try such a thing without thinking about mf. I don't think the tech cam market can drive such development on its own, and even if phase one might have the muscles they don't seem to have any interest, same can be said about Hasselblad as their own systems don't require wide angular response due to loooong flange distance

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    ...
    My only regret is posting a crop of one file processed to my taste - it's a poor way to show off the high-ISO quality on this back. We have D800 vs IQ250 high ISO comparisons which I find favor the IQ250, and in general I can tell you that I (and I can only speak for me) will be very happy using ISO6400 on the IQ250 for my wedding shooting. But it seems best at this point to wait until Capture One 7.2 is out, our demo unit is in the office for testing by us and our clients, and we can share raws rather than processed-to-taste very small crops from very large files.
    ...
    Don't worry about it. It has nothing to do with the product you're selling. IMHO ISO1600 just doesn't look good on any camera. If I had to shoot in very low light without a tripod, I'd rather take a 35mm camera but not because I think ISO performance is better but because of less mirror slap, image stabilization and faster lenses.

    When I was testing the A7r I was shocked how bad the files started to get at ISO1600. Just my opinion.


    EDIT: The Pentax 645D has good ISO performance at 1600 though.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    ...

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKißler View Post
    Don't worry about it. It has nothing to do with the product you're selling. IMHO ISO1600 just doesn't look good on any camera. If I had to shoot in very low light without a tripod, I'd rather take a 35mm camera but not because I think ISO performance is better but because of less mirror slap, image stabilization and faster lenses.

    When I was testing the A7r I was shocked how bad the files started to get at ISO1600. Just my opinion.


    EDIT: The Pentax 645D has good ISO performance at 1600 though.
    Depends on the camera, the 1Dx makes great ISO1600 shots, in that anything from ISO100-1600 looks basically the same.

    Add me to the tough crowd list, I think the IQ250 features are compelling for a back half the price (certainly not 35k?), since ultimately all you're getting is better low light and live view than an IQ140 or similar.

    I initially jumped from my seat when I heard the news, but this is fast not becoming the holy grail I was waiting for, so I guess it's down to waiting for the A7XL from Sony that will no doubt come out 2 years after the others had the lion's share.

    Edit 385: Also, video recording has to become a must, there are videographers out there who would kill for just a box that would let them capture MF-format video (65mm as it's known there), and it could become a whole new source of revenue. It's a market where $35k for a camera body is considered inexpensive.
    Last edited by Kolor-Pikker; 25th January 2014 at 07:47.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKißler View Post
    ..................................

    EDIT: The Pentax 645D has good ISO performance at 1600 though.
    Indeed it does. I rarely need to use it, but here's an example at 1600 (cropped). Mostly luminance noise which gives a film-like quality I like. I am still very happy with the files from this sensor. Still, it will be interesting to see if a 645DII appears and what sensor is used and which form the body takes.
    Tom

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    So does Sony's new 50Mp sensor being larger than 35mm mean that Sony, at least for the time being, have set an upper limit of 36Mp for the 35mm format?

    So what resolution will the new Nikon D4X sport, I wonder?

    Mal

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    If you compare the SNR at 18% of the D800E to the Pentax 645D there is nothing in it.

    Nikon D800E versus Pentax 645D - Side by side camera comparison - DxOMark

    I am not finding noise is the great breakthrough with the new cameras. DR, particularly in the shadows, is where progress is being made. If you like to underexpose and use high ISOs, then this new CMOS may be good for you.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    You know, this is an embarrassment of riches. We buy a new palace and we are amazed at the size and the fittings. Then, after a year or two, we grow bored with it--the grass is not green enough and the 2,000sqft closet does not hold enough shoes. So, we buy a bigger palace. Suddenly the old place is flubbed off as a run-down trailer home. The reality is the old palace is still great. At least it must be is the current fat-pixel back thread is any indication.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    ...
    Ok. In order not to contradict myself; ISO1600 on the Pentax is okay/usable not "good".

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    I cannot commend on the 1DX as I've never tested it. I can only speak for the cameras I'v ever considered buying and unfortunately this was not the case with the 1DX.

    You know, noise itself is generally not bothering me, it's the loss of detail that is an annoyance.

    Perhaps my opinion in this regard will change as soon as I'll try to process images from cmos sensors the way Anders suggested; Less color noise reduction to preserve more details and clarity.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You know, this is an embarrassment of riches. We buy a new palace and we are amazed at the size and the fittings. Then, after a year or two, we grow bored with it--the grass is not green enough and the 2,000sqft closet does not hold enough shoes. So, we buy a bigger palace. Suddenly the old place is flubbed off as a run-down trailer home. The reality is the old palace is still great. At least it must be is the current fat-pixel back thread is any indication.
    True. Maybe some of the rich people here would like to buy a new sedan and send me their old one...

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    So does Sony's new 50Mp sensor being larger than 35mm mean that Sony, at least for the time being, have set an upper limit of 36Mp for the 35mm format?

    So what resolution will the new Nikon D4X sport, I wonder?

    Mal
    Actually I feel it's very telling that the 45 to 54Mp Nikon D4x is closer to reality than I realized. Times they are a changin

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I was wondering when someone would bring up the different aspect ratios. I'm in the other camp as far as 2:3 is concerned and find it fine for landscapes but typically too tall for portrait shooting. I'm far more comfortable with 3:4 ratio (actually I prefer square but that doesn't get you far these days!) and the 2:3 traditional DSLRs such as my Nikons don't quite gel.

    When it comes to resolution comparison I think people will need to compare like for like using the same aspect ratios on both cameras.
    +1

    I crop my Canon 5D MK III images into 4:5 aspect ratio. 2:3 is too tall to my eyes in vertical orientation.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    To me, as an exclusive landscape photographer, ISO of 35 is all I need. From time to time, I may use slightly higher ISO. Only on occasion, I may use the Nikon D800E for ISO over 200.
    If this IQ 250 cannot be used with a Tech Cam, it is too expensive compared to the D800E or Sony A7R. I probably will wait for DX4, but do I need one? My lenses can't even keep up with 36mp.
    It is kind of funny there is no information about the tech cam when the back is almost available. Phase One has had this sensor for many months. I have a hard time believing they don't know whether there is a limitation of the back with the tech cam.
    My pictures still look (awesome) the same with my P25+!

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