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Thread: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

  1. #151
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Not ground breaking? Please point out another MFD product with a CMOS sensor?

    Somethings are expensive because they cost a lot to make. I guess there is no difference between a Ford Focus and a Bugatti Veyron: they will both get you to work and be able to reach the speed limit. Maybe the Bugatti has better cup holders, but it still a car. If you have the cash to buy a Bugatti and you want one, who cares that something cheaper will "do the job."

    My "lack" of enthusiasm is more to do with being fortunate to have been able to use lots of great cameras and a realization that the grass is not actually greener on the other side of the fence and that putting time into shooting and my skill makes a greater impact than buying new products. Heresy? Probably, but there you have it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Not ground breaking? Please point out another MFD product with a CMOS sensor?

    Somethings are expensive because they cost a lot to make. I guess there is no difference between a Ford Focus and a Bugatti Veyron: they will both get you to work and be able to reach the speed limit. Maybe the Bugatti has better cup holders, but it still a car. If you have the cash to buy a Bugatti and you want one, who cares that something cheaper will "do the job."

    My "lack" of enthusiasm is more to do with being fortunate to have been able to use lots of great cameras and a realization that the grass is not actually greener on the other side of the fence and that putting time into shooting and my skill makes a greater impact than buying new products. Heresy? Probably, but there you have it.
    1. A CMOS sensor in and of itself is not particularly significant to me. All I care about is what the camera can and cannot do to facilitate my work as a photographer. I don't care whose name is on the camera or the back. I don't care if it is a Phase, a Hasselblad or a Pentax 645D like some who post here. Would the IQ250 improve my ability to focus accurately? Would it improve my ability to handle high contrast light? Would it offer a lighter and smaller form factor? Would it offer clean, high ISO? I expect that the IQ250 MAY check box 4, but at the cost of a 1.3x crop factor and a lower resolution than what I now have.

    2. I am glad you recognize that putting more time into shooting and your skill is more important than buying new products. I agree. However, you do have over three thousand posts here. I dare say you spend much more time posting than I do buying new camera equipment! Think about how much additional time you would have had to work on your photography if you spent less time posting.

    3. You completely misunderstand my comments about the IQ250. What's with the Bugatti analogy? I am not shocked or put off by the pricing. I fully expected Phase to come in with a high price for the first medium format digital back with a CMOS sensor. I also do not think Phase is pricing the IQ250 in a way that is unjustified by the R&D costs scaled against the sales volume of these backs. What I am disappointed about is that relatively little is being delivered for $35k when I think about my needs as a photographer. The IQ 250 would have been impressive 4 or 5 years ago. Now, not so much.

    4. What I was hoping for was a new mirrorless camera with a full frame 60-80 mp sensor that has the Live View and EVF capabilities and the form factor of the Sony A7R. Maybe it's coming from......Sony!
    hcubell
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  2. #152
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    1. A CMOS sensor in and of itself is not particularly significant to me. All I care about is what the camera can and cannot do to facilitate my work as a photographer. I don't care whose name is on the camera or the back. I don't care if it is a Phase, a Hasselblad or a Pentax 645D like some who post here...
    Mind you some of the below are based on the specs and only a few hours of hands on time. I'd want to test it for several days before being to assertive, and more importantly I'd want you to test it yourself to see if these things hold true for you and your use. But based on my brief use:

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Would the IQ250 improve my ability to focus accurately?
    Very likely yes. Live view on the IQ250 is very significantly ahead of previous IQ2 backs and will provide an excellent means to establish critical focus (I don't know what PDN's article was referring to, but I found focusing via live view to be both straightforward and accurate).

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Would it improve my ability to handle high contrast light?
    Yes. Better DR than previous backs.

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Would it offer a lighter and smaller form factor?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Would it offer clean, high ISO?
    Yes. At least in comparison to any back you've used before. I don't know what your standards are for "high" and "clean". It won't shoot ISO25,600 with the texture of a baby's butt, but it's better than any digital back I've used.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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  3. #153
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Mind you some of the below are based on the specs and only a few hours of hands on time. I'd want to test it for several days before being to assertive, and more importantly I'd want you to test it yourself to see if these things hold true for you and your use. But based on my brief use:



    Very likely yes. Live view on the IQ250 is very significantly ahead of previous IQ2 backs and will provide an excellent means to establish critical focus (I don't know what PDN's article was referring to, but I found focusing via live view to be both straightforward and accurate).



    Yes. Better DR than previous backs.



    No.



    Yes. At least in comparison to any back you've used before. I don't know what your standards are for "high" and "clean". It won't shoot ISO25,600 with the texture of a baby's butt, but it's better than any digital back I've used.
    Thanks, Doug. I know that the high IS0, the Live View and the DR of the IQ250 will be "better" than earlier CCD IQ backs. What remains to be seen is how much better, not just compared to the CCD IQ backs, but also the best DSLRs with CMOS sensors from Nikon, Canon and Sony. For me personally, even if these boxes were ticked, I still would not trade my IQ180 for an IQ 250. The crop factor is just a non-starter. The lower resolution is also an issue as I make and sell large prints.
    I really do hope Phase is successful with the IQ 250 with what is the likely target audience. I want all of you guys to succeed so you have the resources to make new products.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    2. I am glad you recognize that putting more time into shooting and your skill is more important than buying new products. I agree. However, you do have over three thousand posts here. I dare say you spend much more time posting than I do buying new camera equipment! Think about how much additional time you would have had to work on your photography if you spent less time posting.
    Well, then I would not be able to share my wisdom with you and you would not be able to benefit from it. Aren't you lucky!

    But that is what it means to be a part of a community. That is to share. Rather than just come once in a while to get what you want and leave.

    So, I guess from your post you agree with me. The back is a tool and if you need it, so be it, if not, move on. Which was my point.
    Last edited by Shashin; 28th January 2014 at 17:18.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, then I would not be able to share my wisdom with you and you would not be able to benefit from it. Aren't you lucky!

    But that is what it means to be a part of a community. That is to share. Rather than just come once in a while to get what you want and leave.

    So, I guess from your post you agree with me. The back is a tool and if you need it, so be it, if not, move on. Which was my point.
    Pearl of "wisdom" in Post 3091: "The back is a tool and if you need it, so be it..."

    Constructive member of the "community" speaking in Post 3091: "...if not, move on."

    With all of your experience posting here, I would have thought that you would be better at avoiding ad hominem remarks by now. After all, this is not the Third Reich here with you as the Chancellor telling those whose opinions you dislike to "move on."

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    One of the finest things about this forum is the spirit in which discussion is conducted. I sincerely hope that despite different viewpoints, approaches and styles, that will be maintained here. It's what makes this place special.
    Ed Hurst, www.spiffingpics.com
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Seems to me that it's started to spiral down to certain folks taking the viewpoint that you've got to be insane to want a flexible medium format camera system that can be used anywhere when you could buy a D800 or A7/A7r.

    They're never going to buy one and don't see how anyone else would want to shoot and use a medium format system when so many other smaller, cheaper, arguably technically superior solutions exist. However, if you're a MF shooter that doesn't matter a jot IMHO. It was the same when the D800 hit the streets and all the fora were full of people extolling the virtues of that camera and why you must be insane to continue to shoot with MF digital.

    Oh well. Personally I think that it's a great step forward in versatility although I will openly admit my bias.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Howard

    Think about all the killed kids, moms and dads, the next time you feel the need to come up with the dritte reich... in a photography forum.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Pearl of "wisdom" in Post 3091: "The back is a tool and if you need it, so be it..."

    Constructive member of the "community" speaking in Post 3091: "...if not, move on."

    With all of your experience posting here, I would have thought that you would be better at avoiding ad hominem remarks by now. After all, this is not the Third Reich here with you as the Chancellor telling those whose opinions you dislike to "move on."
    Well, I am nonplussed. If you thought my post was a personal attack, then I apologize. There was no intent, but if you found it my text, then I am sorry. I thought I was just trying articulate some things related to your comments. Not about you, but in the way I view equipment and stuff. Apparently, I had done that badly.

    Naturally, your followup about the number of my posting was surprising for me. I know a few member think am a NAZI, but more in a fun-loving Mel Brooks kind of way and usually about viewing distance. Although, I kind of agree with mbn, and really don't think that ever makes a good comparison as it really trivializes a brutal period in history and the people who suffered throughout it.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Pearl of "wisdom" in Post 3091: "The back is a tool and if you need it, so be it..."

    Constructive member of the "community" speaking in Post 3091: "...if not, move on."

    With all of your experience posting here, I would have thought that you would be better at avoiding ad hominem remarks by now. After all, this is not the Third Reich here with you as the Chancellor telling those whose opinions you dislike to "move on."
    Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I have to admit, I never thought I'd see it here.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    And only the forth page...

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Seems to me that it's started to spiral down to certain folks taking the viewpoint that you've got to be insane to want a flexible medium format camera system that can be used anywhere when you could buy a D800 or A7/A7r.

    They're never going to buy one and don't see how anyone else would want to shoot and use a medium format system when so many other smaller, cheaper, arguably technically superior solutions exist. However, if you're a MF shooter that doesn't matter a jot IMHO. It was the same when the D800 hit the streets and all the fora were full of people extolling the virtues of that camera and why you must be insane to continue to shoot with MF digital.

    Oh well. Personally I think that it's a great step forward in versatility although I will openly admit my bias.
    I am not sure who you are referring to, but I don't think I fit the boogeyman profile you describe. First, I have an IQ180 and fully understand why I bought it and continue to use it. Second, I would never describe those that buy an .iQ250 or any other piece of camera equipment as "insane". I think its a very disappointing offering in absolute terms. I have no issue at all with charging premium or even obscenely high prices for a CMOS back, but it should offer a commensurate level of performance . After all, if I bought a Ferrari, I would not be happy to be told that it's slower than a Prius, but be pleased, it's still faster than earlier Ferraris.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Actually Howard I wasn't necessarily referring to you re D800/A7r but there are a few here that can't see beyond the other systems.

    And on the Ferrari analogy, it wouldn't bother me that the Ferrari was slower than a current Prius because ultimately it's STILL a Ferrari. Compare a Ferrari 308 to any mainstream vehicle and it'll seem like a boat anchor with no brakes. However, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one for all of the other intangible reasons. Ditto these cameras/backs.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    It shall be interesting to see where this back find its home. To me it seems like it would fit best in a studio which has many MF cameras, and this back could be added to the bunch to be used in special assignments where you might stumble on difficult light.

    I find it harder to see that you'd want this back if you're going to have only one back. You're not using MF to shoot high ISO. As it costs almost as much as a full-frame CCD back I think most would rather spend the amount on a CCD back, and stick with the DSLR you already own for the high ISO work.

    If high ISO quality turns out to be better than the initial samples we've seen (I think the MF world is not really used to high ISO processing so it will take some time before we see good results) it could be a fine event/wedding camera.

    Haven't seen the tech camera testing yet. Although I think angular response will be a real problem, maybe it still works quite fine with the Digaron-S line (recently heard nice stuff about Sony A7r and Digaron-S, that it would take even the 23mm, if that's true this sensor will likely handle it too), and that together with it's live view could be a killer. Digaron-S + 44x33 is not how I like my own tech cam system to be, but there are other views than mine.

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    I think as owners or prospective owners of digital medium format most of us are interested in the development of the MF platform.

    I would like to contribute some points to the conversation ( I currently use an IQ180 and a Canon 1D (4).

    1. The High ISO images posted on Phase One Unveils First Medium-Format Camera With CMOS Sensor: Hands-On Test, in my opinion were unfortunate in the fact that the figures which represented the focal point/subject of the photos, actually represented a fairly small % of the area of the image - therefore, when you zoomed in on the figures they lacked sharpness/detail and this detracted from the iso performance which was the subject of the test.

    2. Because the subject in each case was well lit by a strobe, the noise was less obvious than it might have been in a poorly lit scene, (as it is with the IQ180 when one shoots in bright light with a higher iso) - I'm not saying the IQ180 is as good, not even suggesting, nearly as good - but just making the point that high iso in really bright light reduces the ugly noise - from my limited experience.

    3. I think it was a shame that they didn't bother to shoot some really traditional 100iso portraits to render the colour of the CMOS sensor in a positive light.

    All in all I think the high iso examples showcased so far have been less than inspiring and it might have been better if a more balanced selection of images had been posted to showcase the full potential of the new back.

    If I was buying again now?
    Well for one I would not believe that Phase One will bring out a new DSLR camera body soon, which I did when I bought into the IQ180 and secondly I would not part with my money on the basis of a handful of early release photos (which I am sure are really a poor examples of what this back can produce).

    I guess we all look forward to seeing more examples in due course.

    Mal
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Seems to me that it's started to spiral down to certain folks taking the viewpoint that you've got to be insane to want a flexible medium format camera system that can be used anywhere when you could buy a D800 or A7/A7r.

    They're never going to buy one and don't see how anyone else would want to shoot and use a medium format system when so many other smaller, cheaper, arguably technically superior solutions exist.
    GrahamWelland-

    There's shades of an oxymoron in there..."flexible medium format"


    The Leica S/S2, and lens lineup has lot's of appeal to me now!

    It's only a community when other ideas and viewpoints can be shared in an objective manner... and you don't diss Shashin's Pentax 645D
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    3. I think it was a shame that they didn't bother to shoot some really traditional 100iso portraits to render the colour of the CMOS sensor in a positive light.
    Phase One did - a huge volume of them actually as part of the profiling process. More on this when my feature length article is released (now looks like Monday since the publishers are traveling).

    Typically when releasing a new product manufacturers (for better or worse) tend to focus on what this product can do that the previous/other ones cannot. Hence the IQ260 was focused very heavily on being a long exposure back, despite the fact it was also quite a nice all-round back and the IQ250 launch marketing is focused very heavily on high ISO, frame rate, and live view, despite the fact it's a quite nice low-ISO back as well (stunning DR from the preliminary testing I've done so far).

    A lot of other testing and shooting took place; the images that get published for initial marketing represent a very very small % of those shots.

    Also notable that P1 traditionally pushes most marketing and customer outreach to the dealer network. What photographers want to see/evaluate in China, NYC, and South Cape are surprisingly different. So it will take a while for the dealer network to receive their demo units, do the testing relevant to their markets and get that information out.

    Then the most important part comes shortly thereafter, the opportunity for photographers to do their own testing and shooting. That's where the rubber really meets the road.

    Any product launches with two phases: flash and then substance. For better or worse. We (DT) try to offset this by getting as much real/useful info as possible as quickly as possible, and I think P1 is trying as well by getting the back in the hands of working photographers early in the process. But let's face it, marketing is marketing; if you're looking for marketing to tell you what product is best for you the answer is always "our product is perfect for you" .
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 29th January 2014 at 07:51.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    They did
    I think Mal was referring to what was actually released at launch for the public to see, both from Phase One and in early hands-on reviews. Ie much focus on the high ISO which is a "new" feature, but too little showing that the CMOS is making good images at base ISO. Which we hopefully will get later on.

    Many MF users are skeptical about CMOS performance at base ISO, and in later years DSLR vs MF has been much about CMOS vs CCD some going so far that CCD is a key aspect in what makes the MF look, so CMOS technology will have to prove itself concerning base ISO color rendition.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Seems to me that it's started to spiral down to certain folks taking the viewpoint that you've got to be insane to want a flexible medium format camera system that can be used anywhere when you could buy a D800 or A7/A7r.
    When this argument rears its ugly head. And it is ugly. It is always one of physics and not of photography, so let them spiral down and down and down. Each photographer must choose their tool, based on how well it works for them. That could be anything. I recently shot a whole series on my iPhone, Lomo style. I have friends plugging away in studios, with regular newspaper and magazine still life contracts, working with P25's. Owned for years and years, they keep going, making great images.

    The technical side is far too hyped. This suits the manufacturers, who keep the customer wanting the next technological advance. It helps sales. D800 today, D900 tomorrow.

    The Leica S/S2, and lens lineup has lot's of appeal to me now!
    Now that caught my eye. The ergonomic body, those beautiful lenses and weather sealed. Just make it 4x3 format Leica! For gods sake. ARE YOU LISTENING LEICA?
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKißler View Post
    ...Still I think the IQ250 is a step in the wrong direction. ISO performance is just, at least in my opinion, of minor importance with MF cameras...
    It may not be great for everyone, but I think it is a step in the right direction. There is a large contingent of medium format film photographers that handhold outside of the studio for fine art or personal use, but the price and high ISO performance of MFDBs, up to this point, has forced most of those shooters into 35mm, if they want to shoot digital.

    By simultaneously bringing CMOS and Sony into the MFDB mix, I see this as the first step towards democratizing the format a little bit. Not only is the high ISO going to be better, but, particularly in regards to the less than full frame 33x44 chip, which I believe still only takes a single stitch to make (like 35mm sensors,) I can see Sony getting the cost down of these things over time.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Interesting thread. I have been quiet for now but here comes my analysis how I see this release:

    Phase One was under pressure (as are all the other MF makers) for a new CMOS technology (lets spare out the technical details here-I want to see it from a product placement and marketing point of view). Right now the DF+ Body does not make all the users happy, but it is the base platform for the actual back portfolio. Phase One themselves have called their CCD products not idealy suited for sports or action photography, as well as for low light shots with for high ISO (not to be mixed up with long exposure capability with low ISO ! I also think the Pixel Plus is only giving only a second grade solution as the resolution is only a quarter of the full one, but that´s another story).
    This gap had to be filled and as you can see from the presentation on the Phase website, that is what the purpose was to reach.
    I don´t think this makes much sense on a tech cam, although I understand the interest of many of my colleagues for better focusing also for their tech cams.
    As I have proposed here for several times some time ago, the only way to get to a larger (than 24x36) CMOS chip was cooperation with other companies to increase the volume, otherwise the production would have been impossible.
    The common denominator for all 4 existing customers of this Sony chip is the format that Leica and Pentax are using (which draws an interesting image of the proportions per company of the projected chips).
    So this chip is tailored mainly for a more compact and SLR oriented concept. Phase has used this to scale it as an extension of the existing back portfolio.

    If Phase One will make this perfect a full body with incorporation of this chip will be needed. I am nearly sure this will happen in the not so far future.
    And - I would not be surprised if they have listened to their customers very carefully and are preparing a solution that will be a market leading body , maybe showing some of the concepts already shown in the industrial cameras.

    I welcome this policy very much and for us as HCam producers this chip is also a godsent: it opens a much greater range of available lenses of the world market, very many cover this smaller format. And 50 Mpix is enough for most of todays working tasks( though a bit small for fine art imaging).

    It is the right decision, the CCD´s will hold their stake for some more years in the traditional highres range (which they do very well).
    This protects the investment of existing customers, opens the market for new ones and extends the usability of the DF+ system -Plus- gives a perspective for a future devellopment.

    Well done Phase One. Pure logic and good strategy !

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
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  22. #172
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    "That's quite the oxymoron!"

    Really? What do you think oxymoron means?
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  23. #173
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Actually, it's the juxtaposition of contradictory elements in this sentence, "flexible medium format". Perhaps more of a fallacy than a true oxymoron such as... What a big baby!



    Let's remember we're talking about the IQ250, not MFD as a whole.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 29th January 2014 at 18:35.

  24. #174
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Actually, I don't find those elements contradictory at all.

    ... And you are still cherry picking parts of my post ...
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member MaxKißler's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Interesting thread. I have been quiet for now but here comes my analysis how I see this release:

    Phase One was under pressure (as are all the other MF makers) for a new CMOS technology (lets spare out the technical details here-I want to see it from a product placement and marketing point of view). Right now the DF+ Body does not make all the users happy, but it is the base platform for the actual back portfolio. Phase One themselves have called their CCD products not idealy suited for sports or action photography, as well as for low light shots with for high ISO (not to be mixed up with long exposure capability with low ISO ! I also think the Pixel Plus is only giving only a second grade solution as the resolution is only a quarter of the full one, but that´s another story).
    This gap had to be filled and as you can see from the presentation on the Phase website, that is what the purpose was to reach.
    I don´t think this makes much sense on a tech cam, although I understand the interest of many of my colleagues for better focusing also for their tech cams.
    As I have proposed here for several times some time ago, the only way to get to a larger (than 24x36) CMOS chip was cooperation with other companies to increase the volume, otherwise the production would have been impossible.
    The common denominator for all 4 existing customers of this Sony chip is the format that Leica and Pentax are using (which draws an interesting image of the proportions per company of the projected chips).
    So this chip is tailored mainly for a more compact and SLR oriented concept. Phase has used this to scale it as an extension of the existing back portfolio.

    If Phase One will make this perfect a full body with incorporation of this chip will be needed. I am nearly sure this will happen in the not so far future.
    And - I would not be surprised if they have listened to their customers very carefully and are preparing a solution that will be a market leading body , maybe showing some of the concepts already shown in the industrial cameras.

    I welcome this policy very much and for us as HCam producers this chip is also a godsent: it opens a much greater range of available lenses of the world market, very many cover this smaller format. And 50 Mpix is enough for most of todays working tasks( though a bit small for fine art imaging).

    It is the right decision, the CCD´s will hold their stake for some more years in the traditional highres range (which they do very well).
    This protects the investment of existing customers, opens the market for new ones and extends the usability of the DF+ system -Plus- gives a perspective for a future devellopment.

    Well done Phase One. Pure logic and good strategy !

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    Interesting thoughts Stefan. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if Sony is sooner or later entering the MF business and the first to present a mirrorless MF system (A7r on steroids). It's a prospering company and they have enough money to drop a million or two (or a couple) on R+D for a new camera + lenses to wrap around a sensor they already produce. All it takes is a CEO who is enthusiastic about photography and off they go.

    Seriously, I was very surprised when they announced the A7/A7r. I knew they made the sensors for the D800 etc. but didn't think they had a camera of their own. Especially since they have the NEX series so I thought they'd stick with the APS-C format.

    In fact, they produce so many mirrorless cameras that I think it's hard to keep track of them all. The RX1 is also a 35mm FF camera so why an A7? And why not a MF mirrorless?

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    My desire for an IQ260 just went up. Weird...

    --Matt
    My pride on owning a IQ280 just went up !!

    Quips aside, I don't understand why the hype about the Live view.
    The way I see it, Live view for photography ( not video mind you ) is best utilized for fine art, landscape, still life images. For such images, what you need is a very good base ISO IQ and ability to print big. Both these will be sub-optimal here, compared to the current 60 and 80MP offerings.
    Phase should stick to what it does best, rather than bowing to peer pressure.

    PS: had a great trip in NZ, will post some images soon.
    for posting images here ( I have never before ), what jpg settings do folks here generally use to export from C1 ?

    Have a great day,
    Saty

  27. #177
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    1200 on the wide side and srgb
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  28. #178
    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    You're not using MF to shoot high ISO.
    Why not?

    If you were intending to shoot high ISO with any other format camera, why not use a MF camera instead, for the larger sensor and all that entails?

    I mean, think about it: why did people use MF cameras with film? The same film emulsions that 35mm users used, including the "high ISO" ones like Konica SRG3200, Agfachrome 1000RS, Ilford Delta 3200 - all available in 120 format.

    And sure, there were MF film photographers who never wanted to use anything faster than Velvia 50 or Tech Pan rated at ISO 35 - just as now, there are MFD photographers who never want to use anything above ISO 50 on their P45+ or IQ160. But the difference is that the film guys could load up a roll of ISO 3200 film anytime they wanted, whereas the DB guys cannot crank their back to a full-res ISO 3200. OTOH, their FFDSLR brethren can.

    That's what this is all about: the long-overdue restoration of the universality (format independence) of camera sensitivity, which was the norm pre-digital. As I prefer using MF systems, that is why I've been clamouring for MF CMOS for years now.

    Over the past decade, it seems to me, a malaise has seeped into the minds of MF users: a resigned attitude that we cannot shoot high ISO digitally, therefore we should never expect to do so again, and that there's something amiss with anyone who says "Hang on, there is really something wrong with this situation. Why do we tolerate that now 35mm kicks our butt in basic sensitivity, even though we used to kick its butt by sheer size advantage with the same emulsion qualities?"

    But restore the sensitivity playing field, and once again, it's just a factor of sheer size advantage. Medium format is finally back on top, in every scenario!

    For me, that's why the Sony CMOS-sensored DBs are a cause for celebration. They might not get it completely right in this first iteration - nearly all of us would like a bigger sensor than 44x33 mm, and I'm particularly annoyed at the P1 mandatory dark frame, which is both unnecessary and damaging - but look at the bigger picture: it's as good per pixel as a D800E (yup, the same D800E which was to be MFD's assassin) but it's 70% bigger. Don't you see the amazing possibilities?

    Ray
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Why not?
    Because DSLRs do it so much better, concerning auto-focus, wide aperture, and sensor dynamic range-wise if we go up in ISO. It's the right tool for the task. Digital 135 also have considerably more resolution than film 135 had, so there's much less reason to step up in format to get more resolution in your high ISO image.

    I think it will be extremely difficult for MF to restore the "balance" from the film days in this aspect. But sure, this is one step on the way.

    In film high ISO is sometimes (often?) used for the look of the film itself, make a moody picture from the grain. Digital high ISO don't have that charm. If you can shoot low ISO you do it and add moody look in post-processing.

    I think some will use this anyway for high ISO despite it's the "wrong tool for the task", simply because they like and are used with the 645DF+ camera and would rather use one camera than have two, and they might not find it as important to have the best high ISO performance if they stumble across those situations quite seldom. And you can probably find some narrow high ISO use cases where it does serve you better than a D4 or 1DX, for example when you need fast sync speed and high ISO at the same time.

    I still think that in that price range the IQ260 is for the vast majority of users interested in MF still the most desirable back. Had it been priced after sensor size it would have been different, then the IQ250 would be attractive as an entry-level option. But with current pricing it must be the high ISO (or live view) that you specifically desire. It will take more time and more than one product to associate MF with high ISO and action. But when Pentax and Leica come with their contributions maybe we'll see a change and more MF in current "DSLR territory".

  30. #180
    Senior Member MaxKißler's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Ray, I think it's difficult to make direct comparisons. It's true what you say about film but in my humble opinion it's simply a completely different media. For example, shoot 35mm film and 35mm digital side by side and enlarge both to 30x40 (cm). Todays digital 35mm cameras go up to ISO25600 and even if this generally can't be considered "usable" so it's the case with Delta3200. Last time I shot a roll of 120 Delta3200 I was a bit shocked that even when I exposed it as 1000ASA film, it was hardly printable at all.

  31. #181
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Its sad but its true, 15 years ago anyone in photography, amateur or professional or just a police...could identify that a hassy 500cm or a mamiya 645 was in fact a photo camera.
    Today the DMF its a niche so small that in the field working with my H3D II sometimes even photographers ask me what its that? Huh? this say very very much about the industry.

    We need a 28MP full frame 645 or 6X6 for 6.000 or 8.000$ entry level DMF system, to bring again a huge numbers o amateurs and newbies profissinals to this segment. ( not 6.000$ in a used system)
    I am thinking if in the present the photography schools still show the advantages of the Medium Format ??? or the 2 major brands invest marking in this segment?

    my best regards, and this medium posts are always a passion threat....hehehe

    My wish list - A 48x48mm 28MP back for 7.000$

    Pedro
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  32. #182
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Why not?

    If you were intending to shoot high ISO with any other format camera, why not use a MF camera instead, for the larger sensor and all that entails?

    I mean, think about it: why did people use MF cameras with film? The same film emulsions that 35mm users used, including the "high ISO" ones like Konica SRG3200, Agfachrome 1000RS, Ilford Delta 3200 - all available in 120 format.

    And sure, there were MF film photographers who never wanted to use anything faster than Velvia 50 or Tech Pan rated at ISO 35 - just as now, there are MFD photographers who never want to use anything above ISO 50 on their P45+ or IQ160. But the difference is that the film guys could load up a roll of ISO 3200 film anytime they wanted, whereas the DB guys cannot crank their back to a full-res ISO 3200. OTOH, their FFDSLR brethren can.

    That's what this is all about: the long-overdue restoration of the universality (format independence) of camera sensitivity, which was the norm pre-digital. As I prefer using MF systems, that is why I've been clamouring for MF CMOS for years now.

    Over the past decade, it seems to me, a malaise has seeped into the minds of MF users: a resigned attitude that we cannot shoot high ISO digitally, therefore we should never expect to do so again, and that there's something amiss with anyone who says "Hang on, there is really something wrong with this situation. Why do we tolerate that now 35mm kicks our butt in basic sensitivity, even though we used to kick its butt by sheer size advantage with the same emulsion qualities?"

    But restore the sensitivity playing field, and once again, it's just a factor of sheer size advantage. Medium format is finally back on top, in every scenario!

    For me, that's why the Sony CMOS-sensored DBs are a cause for celebration. They might not get it completely right in this first iteration - nearly all of us would like a bigger sensor than 44x33 mm, and I'm particularly annoyed at the P1 mandatory dark frame, which is both unnecessary and damaging - but look at the bigger picture: it's as good per pixel as a D800E (yup, the same D800E which was to be MFD's assassin) but it's 70% bigger. Don't you see the amazing possibilities?

    Ray
    Amen.

    All the rules photographers like to make up about what you can and can't do with a camera are simply arbitrary. Fortunately, there are photographers out there crazy enough not to know those rules exist.
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
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  33. #183
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    ...I'm particularly annoyed at the P1 mandatory dark frame, which is both unnecessary and damaging...
    I'm onboard with your entire statement...all but this bit.

    Hasselblad H5D 60 = 32 Seconds MAX
    Leica S = 8 Seconds exposure MAX (limitation of LS Lenses)
    Pentax 645D = 30 Seconds exposure MAX
    Leaf Aptus II = 32 Seconds exposure MAX
    Leaf Credo 40/60/80 (at ISO 50) = 1 Minute exposure MAX
    Phase One IQ260, IQ250, P20+, P21+, P25+, P30+, P45+ = 60 MINUTES MAX!!!!

    To suggest that a black frame is unnecessary seems rather ill informed. Phase One is able to do what no other digital system can, the cost is a perhaps inconvenient black frame but clearly it IS NECESSARY! And lets not forget they've been doing it since 2007. I would think that in the 7 years since, if they could find a way to make it unnecessary, they would have.

    I can understand someone not enjoying the wait but clearly it's there for a reason. If it wasn't absolutely necessary do we really believe it would be forced upon us by Phase for sport? Also, to say it's damaging seems strange, as without it the image would not be usable, being 1/2 of a complete capture.

    Ultimately I, like you it would seem, don't enjoy waiting for a black frame to take place but I accept it as the cost of getting a RAW file unparalleled in quality to any other device at long exposures and as there are no alternatives I accept it as part of the "secret sauce" that makes this possible.
    Last edited by Altdo; 31st January 2014 at 05:02.
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    The black frame is there also for short exposures.

    And you have it for DSLRs too. On my Canon 5D I've turned on black frame for all exposures above one second. And 30 seconds is not max, it's only max for the auto exposure. Bulb you can expose for as long as you want, longer will lead to more noise of course though. A few minutes should be no problem though with any DSLR.

    The thing is that with my DSLR you can choose to turn off black frame subtraction if that's better suited for your current application. The problem with Phase One backs is that the user is not provided with that option.

    It's true though that Leaf Aptus backs have limited their exposure to 30 seconds max, ie you can't lengthen it even if you want. Which is a bit boring for me which is shooting in cold conditions at times where much longer exposures would be possible, if just the back's software would allow it. I agree with Ray that it's unfortunate when the MFDB software artifically limits what the photographer can shoot.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    The Black frame is only there for short exposures on the Phase back for the first. Then, if nothing changes, the same is applied to consecutive exposures.
    This is why the first exposure takes an extra beat while following shots are faster, the black calibration is collected on the first frame and applied to the rest.

    Over 1 second however, each frame collects it's own black calibration data.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    I suspect this sensor runs very warm, warmer even than the D800 sensor, and that the black frame subtraction is needed even at handheld shutter speeds, and especially with use of live view. Remember, this is an Exmor, and all of the active gain stages and A-D are on the sensor, and multiplied out by the number of columns. This sensor is the home of the bluish-magenta haze.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Another nice feature Canon has with the Dark frame is it runs totally in the background in the buffer on the more advanced models of full frame DSLRs, allowing you to continue to shoot on longer exposures. If you are shooting a series of 5 to 10 sec exposures you can leave it on and will see no problems as it just finishes in the background. After a series of 30 second exposures around 6 or 7, you will start to see the long noise reduction start to run out of buffer and stop the camera for a few seconds. It still gives you much more freedom than say Nikon which is a 1 sec+1 sec equal process, so shoot a 30 sec, wait 30 sec while frame is written in the foreground, not background. This is true for any exposure of 1 second or longer with Nikon. Phase apparently runs it on exposures but only locks the camera at 1 sec or longer, by lock, I mean you can't shoot again and the LCD shows the dark frame is running. I have never seen any discussion if DSLR's are running it on all frames or just exposures of 1 sec or longer.

    Example, you can take a 45 minute exposure with a 6D, 5DMKII or III with dark frame on, and when the first 45 minute exposure is done, you can get off at least one more shot before the camera buffers out. Back in the days I shot only long single exposures before stacking this was huge advantage for Canon since you were getting more out of the camera/battery. And since the shots were 40 minutes the files will most definitely be much cleaner. Nikon is like Phase One in that if Long exposure noise reduction is on (Dark Frame) then you are locked out until the dark frame finishes.

    Leaving Long Exposure Noise reduction on while stacking, won't work as after about 10 to 15 exposures (say 2 min each) the Canon will buffer out for a while. Always seemed strange to me that you could get 2 40 minute exposures off before the Long Exposure Noise Dark frame buffered out but on shorter exposures it happens much faster.

    I would also assume that this chip is going to have a bit of heat, but not sure why it would be any more than the same sized CCD.

    I have not seen any of the Phase One recommended temp ranges for the longer exposures as on the 260 and P45+ a 1 hour exposure was only listed at outdoor temps of 69 degrees F or lower and low to moderate humidity.

    Paul

  38. #188
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    it's as good per pixel as a D800E (yup, the same D800E which was to be MFD's assassin) but it's 70% bigger. Don't you see the amazing possibilities?

    There's good intentions in your overall comment, however, it's this part that will continue to poke MFD. Yes, for some only MFD will get those really big gallery wall prints, or a certain DOF. For some the "look" isn't about size, but of functionality, as it relates to investment.

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    For some the "look" isn't about size, but of functionality, as it relates to investment.

    Wait, are you saying that the Nikon costs less? Why would anyone pay more for something when they can get something different for less?

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Altdo View Post
    Leaf Credo 40/60/80 (at ISO 50) = 1 Minute exposure MAX
    The Credo 80 is rated to 2 minutes, not 1 minute as you have suggested, but it should be mentioned that there is no "handbrake" in the firmware so nothing stops you from keeping the shutter open for as long as you like, on any of the Credo models...

    I've done 3+ minutes on the Credo 80 at 35iso (and low ambient temp mind you) with decent results

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Hi Yair,

    That's interesting to know. Never knew about the "No handbrake" deal. Do you think 2 minutes is possible with a Credo 40 at around 25 degrees ambient?

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by synn View Post
    Do you think 2 minutes is possible with a Credo 40 at around 25 degrees ambient?

    Capture is possible. Whether the results are acceptable to you is something which would be better for you to answer with your own test (or having your dealer test for you if you don't already have one).

    Also depends hugely on whether you mean 25F or 25C. If you mean 25C the answer is a definite no. 25F puts it in the realm of possibility with the question of acceptable quality falling on you.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

    Thanks Doug. I meant 25C.

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