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Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know, and Q&A

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
High ISO work is IMO not what an MF camera is supposed to be used for anyway. If this CMOS technology offers a better usability for tech camera work it's a benefit. If not I see no real development here...
I guess everyone's needs are different.

I've been doing this for six years now and the top three feature complaints I've heard from people who were considering buying a back were:
1) crappy LCD
2) poor ISO performance
3) no live view

Phase One basically eliminated #1 with the IQ series. It's that good.

Phase One improved #2 and #3 with the IQ series. They got good ISO1600 and ok ISO3200, but only at reduced resolution. They got Live View but it's fairly slow, and doesn't handle low or contrasty light very well.

With the 250 #2 and #3 are very well handled.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you - if you don't need or care about ISO then it won't mean anything to you. I was just trying to explain why I think I'll continue getting the massive volume of "I'm interested" email that I've seen in the last hour.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Doug - appreciate that you're juggling lots of questions from multiple places at the moment, but if I may ask again in case you missed it...

At what shutter speed does the dark-frame kick in?
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I can't wait to see this sensor in a Pentax body. I shoot at ISO1600 quite often--I did not know I wasn't supposed to do that, sorry. If I can get two more stops, then that is very interesting. Even without the small increase in resolution, the noise should not be a problem. Well done Phase.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Huh? What's this comment from the LuLa review mean??

"Limited only by the attached camera, with a Phase One DF camera continuous 1.2 FPS shooting is possible. It will be interesting to see what frame rates are possible with next generation cameras."

So the back can capture at a greater frame rate? It's the DF that's limiting it to 1.2FPS?

I wonder what it can do on an FPS...
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Doug - appreciate that you're juggling lots of questions from multiple places at the moment, but if I may ask again in case you missed it...

At what shutter speed does the dark-frame kick in?
Dark frames are done at all shutter speeds. When possible it reuses the dark frame - like with all other IQ/IQ2 backs. At some point they kick in on every frame instead of as needed. This is not done at one specific shutter speed. I suggest you work with your dealer to test your specific use case (temperature, frame rate, use of LCD or not, ISO) to see when/where you're able to consistently reuse the dark frame rather than have it be taken anew every time.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Huh? What's this comment from the LuLa review mean??

"Limited only by the attached camera, with a Phase One DF camera continuous 1.2 FPS shooting is possible. It will be interesting to see what frame rates are possible with next generation cameras."

So the back can capture at a greater frame rate? It's the DF that's limiting it to 1.2FPS?

I wonder what it can do on an FPS...
No idea on the FPS, but yes, faster frame rate expected on other bodies.

Maybe upwards of 2fps on a 500 series (where no electronic communication is required at all). Though you'll have a hard time cranking the winder that fast! :)
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Dark frames are done at all shutter speeds.
All? You sure about that?

They're certainly not on the IQ180. It kicks in at something around the 1.5 second mark.*

Kind regards,

Gerald.

*Hmm. Actually, now you've got me wondering whether they do exist below that and it's just that I've never noticed it because you don't see the timer counting up and down...
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
All? You sure about that?

They're certainly not on the IQ180. It kicks in at something around the 1.5 second mark.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
Your IQ180 applies a dark frame to all exposures. At short speeds it creates it at the first frame of a given shutter speed and uses it for following images at the same shutter speed. Set a speed of 1/500th, put the body on continuous, and hold the shutter. There will be a larger gap between [frame 1] and [frame 2] than between all subsequent frames. That gap was the creation of a dark frame. As you go to longer exposures you'll find that it occasionally gaps in continuous shooting because the back requires a new dark frame for that shutter speed - basically any time the sensor's firmware thinks it's temperature has changed enough to require it. As you get to even longer shutter speeds you'll find it does it every time regardless of anything else.

Notably at exposures like 0.5 seconds you're unlikely to notice the capture of the dark frame as it only takes 0.5 seconds. It's really when you're at 2+ seconds when it becomes hard to miss.
 

torger

Active member
Large sensors is both good and bad for low light photography. Good thing that you get more area to gather light, bad thing you need to stop down more to get reasonable depth of field. Probably the 36x24mm sensors with f/1.4 lenses is a better tradeoff for low light photography than what we have here, although 44x33 is not *that* much larger, but the availability of fast lenses is limited.

This widens possibilities though and we've not yet seen where this new capability will bring medium format.
 

jagsiva

Active member
Large sensors is both good and bad for low light photography. Good thing that you get more area to gather light, bad thing you need to stop down more to get reasonable depth of field. Probably the 36x24mm sensors with f/1.4 lenses is a better tradeoff for low light photography than what we have here, although 44x33 is not *that* much larger, but the availability of fast lenses is limited.

This widens possibilities though and we've not yet seen where this new capability will bring medium format.
The cost/benefit of 44x33 over 36x24 just got even harder to justify. For the extra real-estate, the camera/back combo is slower, less user friendly and costs 10x. Unlike previous CCD vs CMOS debates, the sensor tech is essentially the same Sony sensor in a larger format.

If/when we get a CMOS sensor with 24-30fps LV, 55x40 real-estate, fully usable on tech cams, good ISO to 6400, 60-80MP, lets talk :)

BTW, the back is available for sale on Monday, but Phase has not tested performance on a tech cam yet? How does this make any sense?
 

miska

Member
What I am wondering, is why Sony developed such a sensor ?
- They are just a chip provider, and they thought it would be a good business (i.e. they think they can sell enough MF chips just as a chip-maker)
- They have their own MF system in the works, and they also sell chips to other manufacturers (as an "extra"), like they do for their other (smaller) CMOS chips.
Interesting times...
 

hcubell

Well-known member
I guess everyone's needs are different.

I've been doing this for six years now and the top three feature complaints I've heard from people who were considering buying a back were:
1) crappy LCD
2) poor ISO performance
3) no live view

Phase One basically eliminated #1 with the IQ series. It's that good.

Phase One improved #2 and #3 with the IQ series. They got good ISO1600 and ok ISO3200, but only at reduced resolution. They got Live View but it's fairly slow, and doesn't handle low or contrasty light very well.

With the 250 #2 and #3 are very well handled.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you - if you don't need or care about ISO then it won't mean anything to you. I was just trying to explain why I think I'll continue getting the massive volume of "I'm interested" email that I've seen in the last hour.
Doug, these advances would have been really impressive 4 years ago. Now, it all seems like a day late and a dollar short. The LCD, the high ISO performance and the Live View appear to be much better than what was previously available in medium format, but are not really state of the art. I sort of think when I am spending $35,000, I should get BETTER than the Sony A7R, not worse. Moreover, big surprise, this all comes at the price of a 1.3X crop factor.
Phase and Hasselblad better hope that Sony doesn't drop a sensor of this size into an upscaled version of the A7R with a new line of Zeiss lenses.
 

goesbang

Member
The cost/benefit of 44x33 over 36x24 just got even harder to justify. For the extra real-estate, the camera/back combo is slower, less user friendly and costs 10x. Unlike previous CCD vs CMOS debates, the sensor tech is essentially the same Sony sensor in a larger format.

If/when we get a CMOS sensor with 24-30fps LV, 55x40 real-estate, fully usable on tech cams, good ISO to 6400, 60-80MP, lets talk :)

BTW, the back is available for sale on Monday, but Phase has not tested performance on a tech cam yet? How does this make any sense?
Fundamentally, I agree with you. However, when you consider that most published images are cropped closer to a MF ratio than a 35mm ratio, there is a lot bigger gap jumping from 39MP to 50MP as it's more like a 32MP to 50Mp jump. It will also be interesting to see if the MF designers are able to extract more quality data from each pixel.
Different photographers are going to have different perspectives on what this new back brings to the table. I suspect the wedding/portrait and fashion shooters are going to be all over it, whilst the ultra-wide/tech-cam wallahs are going to go "so what?". As an architectural pro who also shoots landscapes and nudes for the love of it, I can't see that I will ever move to a smaller sensor than my IQ180. As it is I shoot over 90% of my images on my 23mm and often wish I had an 18 or 20mm. I routinely shoot at 35ISO without any drama, so whilst I'm excited that the MF-CMOS hurdle has been crossed, I'm not reaching for my wallet yet. What I REALLY want for Christmas is a replacement for my DF which overcomes all its shortcomings. Sadly, I guess we have to wait till Photokina for that.
 

f8orbust

Active member
There is no question Schneider wides are out of the question. But which Rodenstock lenses, with how much movement, can be used is still an open question...
That's a real shame. Moreso given the 44x33 size - the popular R/S 40mm (actual focal length ~42mm) now effectively becomes a 51mm lens (wrt its behaviour on an IQ180), probably with restricted movements. The hugely expensive R/S 32mm (actual focal length ~33mm) now acts like a 40mm (wrt its behaviour on an IQ180), again probably with limited movements. Maybe the Digaron-S's are the answer, but it looks to me like this DB is one for the SLR users out there.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
That's a real shame. Moreso given the 44x33 size - the popular R/S 40mm (actual focal length ~42mm) now effectively becomes a 51mm lens (wrt its behaviour on an IQ180), probably with restricted movements. The hugely expensive R/S 32mm (actual focal length ~33mm) now acts like a 40mm (wrt its behaviour on an IQ180), again probably with limited movements. Maybe the Digaron-S's are the answer, but it looks to me like this DB is one for the SLR users out there.
The answer is the Canon TS-E's on an FPS.
 

MaxKißler

New member
I guess everyone's needs are different.

I've been doing this for six years now and the top three feature complaints I've heard from people who were considering buying a back were:
1) crappy LCD
2) poor ISO performance
3) no live view

Phase One basically eliminated #1 with the IQ series. It's that good.

Phase One improved #2 and #3 with the IQ series. They got good ISO1600 and ok ISO3200, but only at reduced resolution. They got Live View but it's fairly slow, and doesn't handle low or contrasty light very well.

With the 250 #2 and #3 are very well handled.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you - if you don't need or care about ISO then it won't mean anything to you. I was just trying to explain why I think I'll continue getting the massive volume of "I'm interested" email that I've seen in the last hour.
You're right, everyones needs are different. Personally, I don't think the LCD of my P30+ is that bad :loco: . In fact I think it's great (you even can turn it off)! And so is the ISO performance of that back. I cannot complain the least.

BUT (especially at that price point) I'm a bit disappointed because I had hoped for much greater improvements over a back that is seven years old. The fact that sensor size is no improvement over the P30+ either just contributes to this feeling.

Anyway, I hope you'll be selling a lot of these backs. Perhaps someday there will be enough money for Phase Ones R+D to develop a sensor larger than 645 film...
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I'm a little surprised at the level of negativity about the new back. I'm sure that for it's target clientele - the MF DSLR pro user who wants a truly flexible MFDB solution - it'll do very well. That silent majority isn't typically hanging out on these forums.

Kudos to Phase One on a major update of the platform. I hope that there's a ripple back to we IQ2 "classic" users in terms of firmware updates, wifi fixes and general reliability improvements.

Now just get on and develop a bigger sensor that's more SK tech camera lens friendly! :D
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
One interesting thing about the IQ250 is the pricing.

It's clearly intended to replace the IQ140 (which is being dropped), and yet the price increase is (relatively) astronomical.

IQ140's are, what - $20K new?

The IQ250 is I believe $35K.

How's that trade-in going to work I wonder?!
 
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