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Thread: Speculation : Sony MF system

  1. #51
    Member fmueller's Avatar
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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    OK, so it seems there is a consensus that an 33x44 fixed lens or better yet, interchangeable lens camera from Sony would be a game changer, even Lloyd Chambers dreams of a MF Sony sensor cam. Right up until the day it is introduced and everybody starts howling about it being a crop sensor when it should be a full frame MFDB. Heaven help us if they would dare put a focal plane shutter on it...

    Some day you will be able to buy an IQ260 for $5000, but the year will probably be 2024 and I'll bet it will work about as well as the day it was new.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    Quote Originally Posted by markymarkrb View Post
    I think the interesting part of this "war" is that 35mm full frame has now hit 36mp. The question is then how much more MPs can you cram into the space of a full frame sensor at the expense of affordable lenses? From what I have seen, glass is going to have to get quite a bit better to go beyond the 36MP on a postage stamp. This will deter a big part of their market. In other words, I think they have backed themselves a little into a corner with the 36MP sensors. I love my IQ180 but I can't see me enjoying the look of an image that is smaller than the 5.2 micron size. This is where the MF world has an inherent advantage. The IQ250 is not full frame but the sensor but the IQ3XX will be. MF can keep getting bigger and bigger without shrinking the pixels even up to the image circles of tech lenses. By the way, If someone can talk to the right person to get me a 617 digital sensor, let me know. I hate stitching shots at the beach.
    so seconded!


    I would not be surprised to see a canikon move up to medium format. The megapixel wars are over as far as 35mm and crop cameras are concerned. Diffraction does indeed start to creep in at higher pixel counts.

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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    I would personally love to see a a 645 Digital Rangefinder/Mirrorless, someday, with this new technology. Something like the Mamiya 7.
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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    I longed for this years ago, and was hopeful when Phase bought Mamiya that a ZD2 or 7III digital would appear, but it never did. Phase are not interested - they are supporting the bulk of their users and the Mamiya 645-SLR based options, with full retrofocal lenses, and big mirrors slapping about. That will be reflected in the upcoming new Phase camera, which will work with legacy lenses, of course. I cannot see the IQ250/CMOS live view changing any of this, sadly.

    Another problem with the digital 7/MF rangefinder concept is the true wide-angle (Biogon type) lenses, which the original rangefinder cameras deploy, will result in a lot of off-axis color casts. Probably unacceptably so. It all needs to shift to Apo-Distagon type wides, (moderate retrofocal, highly corrected) which are bigger, bulkier and pricier. Rodenstock has already done this with their MF tech lenses, and they are superb, clearly superior to the Phase/Schneider MF wides.

    The answer is indeed for Sony to break the logjam, make a fixed lens MF camera with a Zeiss ~50mm specially developed for this sensor, and correction programmed into the firmware. Hopefully with a leaf shutter, like the RX1R. Phase will not do that. I remain unconvinced that Sony would undercut its MF partners this way, but that said - I would certainly buy one!

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    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    Quote Originally Posted by markymarkrb View Post
    I think the interesting part of this "war" is that 35mm full frame has now hit 36mp. The question is then how much more MPs can you cram into the space of a full frame sensor at the expense of affordable lenses? From what I have seen, glass is going to have to get quite a bit better to go beyond the 36MP on a postage stamp. This will deter a big part of their market. In other words, I think they have backed themselves a little into a corner with the 36MP sensors. I love my IQ180 but I can't see me enjoying the look of an image that is smaller than the 5.2 micron size. This is where the MF world has an inherent advantage. The IQ250 is not full frame but the sensor but the IQ3XX will be. MF can keep getting bigger and bigger without shrinking the pixels even up to the image circles of tech lenses. By the way, If someone can talk to the right person to get me a 617 digital sensor, let me know. I hate stitching shots at the beach.
    You can cram as many pixels on there as you want, and, while there may be a need for new lenses to take advantage of higher resolution sensors, you won't be at a disadvantage using older lenses. Plus, more megapixels is still an improvement when downsized, and moire is decreased.

    I could easily see 24x36 chip megapixels go up to 100mp+, where diffraction at even large apertures would probably start limiting the practical advantages of going any higher.

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    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Fuji is probably the most likely candidate for a new digital MF camera.

    - They make their own sensors.
    The sensors in most of Fuji's X cameras are simply Sony sensors with Fuji's unique (I'm personally not a fan) X-trans CFA on top, and the X100 and XA-1 are regular Bayer on a Sony sensor. This isn't any different from Nikon, Ricoh, etc. who also use their own CFAs on top of Sony sensors. If Fuji went medium format, they might still use the Sony 33x44 sensor.

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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    Why can't Hasselblad design a mirror less camera, Fuji build it, and Sony provide the sensor? After all, Hasselblad has great working relationships with both companies.

    Greg

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    New Member Plateau Light's Avatar
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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Can't see it happening myself, for all the reasons mentioned already.

    What I can see happening though is what torger suggested in another thread - Sony releasing a mirrorless fixed lens camera utilising their chip. Now that I reckon there is a huge potential for.
    YES! That would be the ****! Imagine Sony with their new a12r medium format mirrorless system with an EFC that puts the Apla 12 FPS to bed at a fraction of the cost.

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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    The last "new" player to enter medium format digital was Pentax and it took them seven years between when they announced they were going to release a digital 645 until they shipped one to a customer – and they had some pretty decent prior experience in medium format with a range of lenses already designed.
    The main issues for Pentax during the lengthy time of development for the 645D was very limited financial resources and the exploding megapixel wars with cameras increasing in resolution by leaps and bounds every 6 months during various development stages of the 645D. This doesn't even include the accompanied developing tech that was also being added to each emerging new model of 35mm DSLR's at the time too which meant Pentax had to once again hold up production.

    Pentax was on shaky financial footing long before the global economic downturn and when they thought their prototype was getting close to final production with both specs and choice of resolution and sensor size, the market place and specs for 35mm DLSR's was growing so fast, that the various incarnations and specs of the 645D appeared already obsolete just when it looked like they were almost ready to go with it. Hence the interminable delays.

    Prior to the 645D Pentax was a co-developer of their first lalong with Contax's (Kyocera) 1st DSLR, the N1 (a company they have had a long time working relationship with) and poured in large sum of money to fund the project. Just when production was close to being ramped up, Pentax suddenly pulled out fearing the camera's specs have already been surpassed by Nikon & Canon in that segment of the market and they would loose their proverbial shirts by proceeding. Contax went ahead on their own and from what I know, Kyocera (Contax) took a financial beating and subsequently Contax was none more. Pentax learned from that experience and treaded very carefully with development and subsequent release of the 645D. They almost pulled it's production at the last minute, and that's why the inside compromise from what I understand was first release of the 645D in Japan and select markets and vitually no development of new lenses ...only the WR 55mm. Users had to relay on legacy lenses, most of which were produced on a very limited basis and of which had limited distribution. In other words Pentax was going to limit investment in case things went badly.

    After years of barely hanging on, Pentax had agreed to a partial buyout/merger with Hoya and then the eventual spinoff/sale of the Pentax division to Ricoh.

    Sony appears to rely on Zeiss for producing high quality optics for their cameras. I cannot see either company wanting to invest the necessary $$ or R&D for a new line of medium format lenses for a potential Sony MF digital, considering the market is too small. What I can envision is essentially a digital back with lens mount ala A7 which allows mounting various medium format lenses via adapters. Interesting times ahead.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 17th February 2014 at 18:11.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Speculation : Sony MF system

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    The sensors in most of Fuji's X cameras are simply Sony sensors with Fuji's unique (I'm personally not a fan) X-trans CFA on top, and the X100 and XA-1 are regular Bayer on a Sony sensor. This isn't any different from Nikon, Ricoh, etc. who also use their own CFAs on top of Sony sensors. If Fuji went medium format, they might still use the Sony 33x44 sensor.
    So let me put it another way:
    Fujifilm develop their own sensors and those sensors are unique to Fujifilm cameras. I doubt Fujifilm would launch an MF camera with an off-the-shelf Sony sensor. The CFA, in my view, is a part of the sensor. No CFA, no photo.

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