Speculation : Sony MF system

[Qamaro]

I doubt Sony will want to spend it's first profit in the past 5 years on creating a new system / mount / lenses (which they totally lack). My take is that they will continue to sell sensors reap those benefits and go with the strategic alliance / partnerships route.

Sony will want to go anywhere where costs and risks can be shared. I still state that the deal they have with Hasselblad has more nuances than the cursory glance. That deal just looks like the possible making of an acquisition story should the market move toward larger sensors. In particular of the fact that Hasselblad is now using lots of parts from the Sony bin.... just my 2 cents.

 

[BANKER1]

Mamiya 7 in Mirrorless digital ala Sony would be cool. Doubt it would happen but they have the sensor tech

Bingo! And, it will have a Hasselblad badge using existing Hassy lenses. Shortly, too, I have heard.

Greg

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

1. It makes no sense for Sony to make a medium format camera or system. Still they might do it. They are totally unpredictable.

2. The megapixel war is not over. Sony themselves recently launched 24 and 36 MP mirrorless cameras, up around 100% from most of the competition. Most photographers think they make better photos with more megapixels at their disposal. Camera manufacturers are more than happy to help them.

3. There is no limit as to how many pixels can be crammed into a postage stamp. My Nokia has 41 MP, and although it's no Hasselblad or Nikon, it's surprising what can be done with it.

4. Although there are many good reasons why certain things shouldn't be done, in the end, one can be rather certain that somebody will do it. It's human nature.

5. Whatever Sony does, I'm quite sure that it won't be based on a Kyocera design, for many good reasons.

 

[Shashin]

Forget mirroless, we need lensmore. This is the future:

3D World TL 120-1 (II. Version)

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Forget mirroless, we need lensmore. This is the future:

3D World TL 120-1 (II. Version)

If one lens is good, three lenses must be three times as good

 

[drevil]

well the name contax should reside back with zeiss these days.
and since sony and zeiss are pretty good partners for a long time why not.
i just wonder why sony would want to make a contax branded MF camera.
although alot of people, including myself, would love to see a C645 mark II for sure, with revised C645 lenses :thumbs:

wasnt it sony(or was it canon?) who said they already invested a significant amount of money in a european MF company?

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

well the name contax should reside back with zeiss these days.
and since sony and zeiss are pretty good partners for a long time why not.
i just wonder why sony would want to make a contax branded MF camera.
although alot of people, including myself, would love to see a C645 mark II for sure, with revised C645 lenses :thumbs:

wasnt it sony(or was it canon?) who said they already invested a significant amount of money in a european MF company?

The lens designs and Contax name belong to Zeiss, the rest to Kyocera. Unless, that is, Kyocera sold those bits to Fuji. The design of the X-T1 may indicate that some kind of transfer has been going on between the two. They didn't pay Porsche Design millions only to have any old camera maker copy the design.

 

[fotografz]

Interesting speculation.

While Sony is something of an enigma, if we step back and look at what they are doing it isn't terribly hard to figure out what they are up to.

Sony is a consumer electronics company, and that mindset extends well into their imaging division. If you doubt that, simply look at all the consumer oriented settings even on their highest end cameras.

Today's consumer landscape has changed. The movement is away from larger, less convenient ways of capturing images, to more connectivity and convince. Obviously, the best expression of that is the smart phone.

Yet, the smart phone is limited, and consumers know that. Even Sony wasn't prepared for the success of its own QX WiFi "lens camera" which quickly outsold production estimates and capability.

When surveying the market, Sony is side-stepping head-to-head competition with entrenched Nikon and Canon. On the Alpha A mount front, they have totally abandoned the Optical Viewfinder to offer the alternative EVF/SLTs. However, that doesn't tick off the right boxes for enough consumers … but the now merged NEX/Alpha E mount is starting to do exactly that. Smaller, more convenient, better image quality (better/larger sensor and interchangeable lenses), and more connectivity. That advanced amateurs, and even many pros see the price/value in that, is all the better.

A larger camera with a MFD sized sensor, requiring much larger lenses, and the added difficulty of transferring that level of IQ to Cloud storage doesn't seem to fit in with where the volume money is in the marketplace.

That said, a Mamiya 7-II sized camera with EVF and a 50 meg sensor supported by a nice set of Zeiss (Mamiya 7 sized) optics would most certainly capture some attention amongst this group here … whether that'd pay out in the end is doubtful.


- Marc

 

[torger]

Sure, no reason for Sony not to make a MF point and shoot. Creating a new camera is easy.

For Canon, Nikon, Sony etc it is. Look at the number of new compact cameras they put out each year. The same technology is reused in larger systems. The difference between a 24 megapixel 36x24mm RX1 and 50 megapixel 44x33 RXm would probably be quite minimal. Possibly they would need more processing power in the body due to the higher pixel count, then it could be a little more difficult but these companies have resources.

It's not like they need to remake live view and sensor interaction technology from the start like MF companies may have to do. Sony has had real live view and this type of CMOS sensors for several years already.

It's all about if they find a reason to do it. It would not sell in large numbers. However RX1 is also not a large volume camera, it's "wrong" in terms of what Sony should be doing, but they surprised us with that (the 44x33 sensor itself is also "wrong", it will sell in tiny numbers compared to the more normal sizes). Due to that I would not be too surprised if they make a similar camera with the new 44x33 sensor, even if it does not really make sense for a mass-market type of company like Sony.

 

[robmac]

IF Sony enters the MF market, I suspect it will be with a player Like Hassy and a co-branded unit, akin to the Leica S using existing H mount lenses, etc., and adding some co-developed lenses with optics heavily designed by Sony/Zeiss and with mechanics (shutter, etc.) and firmware by Hassy.

A nicely-priced 50MP +/- Hassy-Sony S style body with True Focus, etc in H mount with a growing list of co-developed lenses would sell well me thinks.

It would get their name into more higher-end pro studios with a well-established player w/o the need to develop a entire new camera body, lens mount, etc. There's no need for them to invest heavily to become a new player in a small and hotly contested market facing pressure from SLRs (oddly enough thanks to their own sensors) when they can partner instead.

That said, who knows. They may be perfectly happy just selling sensors and watching the cage match from the sidelines.

 

[Ken_R]

If Sony wanted to make a Medium Format Digital system I am sure they can do it and do it quickly. MUCH quicker than Pentax did. Look at how quickly the designed and made a Full Frame Mirorless system. Yes, Sony had extensive experience with the NEX system but the A7/A7R are a step ahead. I know, there are only 3 Sony FE lenses available but they are very good.

Could you imagine a Medium Format Digital Mirrorless system with an awesome EVF? It would be superb. Much smaller and lighter form factor, specially the lenses.

With the IQ250 external EVFs are possible and in theory you could build a mirror less MF camera with the IQ250, the Alpa FPS an an external EVF. You could do the same with an Arca (please make an FPS!) or Cambo but obviously not have an electronic shutter (I know schneider makes lenses with the e-shutter but they require a large controller)

IMHO the technology is available today to make a truly innovative medium format system from the ground up as a mirroless slr-style system with EVF. I hope someone does it.

That said the IQ250 is a great addition to a superb line of digital backs. Can't complain about that!

 

[jlm]

if sony had just clipped off the front of the A7R so the flange to sensor matched a phase back they would have rocked some boats

 

[Ulfric Douglas]

Sony might just have signed a "we won't do it!" agreement before the Medium-Format manufacturers agreed to buy this new sensor.
If I was Phase, Hasselblad, Pentax I'd not trust Sony an inch and insist on them not undercutting the whole market with their own camera or back.

 

[Shashin]

Sony is a consumer electronics company, and that mindset extends well into their imaging division. If you doubt that, simply look at all the consumer oriented settings even on their highest end cameras.

While I agree that Sony is not going to enter the MFD market, that statement is far too simple. The Alpha and Nex line of cameras has a strong Minolta heritage. Minolta did have a strong bent toward consumer cameras with occasional burst of brilliance and innovation. They did have some professional-level products, but they never pursued the professional market the way Canon and Nikon did. I see more of Minolta in what Sony is doing than I see Sony's culture. But then I might be biased as a former Konica Minolta Photo Imaging employee that worked with a lot of the folks that moved to Sony. I also have no idea what Sony's culture is, or at least no more than anyone outside the company.

 

[torger]

if sony had just clipped off the front of the A7R so the flange to sensor matched a phase back they would have rocked some boats

An advanced DYI project perhaps? Taking apart an A7R and putting it together as a 36x24 digital back... would be cool

On a view camera you can use it as-is, as flange distance is not important there, focus on live view and you're fine, and the sensor can't do ultra-short flange distance lenses anyway. Arca-Swiss MF-two has a bellows coming this month. This is anyhow the type of camera this sort of hack would be used anyway, so I guess it's not so necessary to make a back out of it. Still would be a cool project.

 

[Shashin]

Sony might just have signed a "we won't do it!" agreement before the Medium-Format manufacturers agreed to buy this new sensor.
If I was Phase, Hasselblad, Pentax I'd not trust Sony an inch and insist on them not undercutting the whole market with their own camera or back.

While it is possible for a company to have another company develop technology for you under an exclusive agreement (Kodak and Leica did this with the S2/S sensor), I believe it is illegal to simply say you cannot enter a market. None of these companies can afford exclusivity.

I would also like to point out that Pentax actually undercut Phase and Hasselblad with their Kodak sensor camera. The same sensor those other companies used. They may do it again.

 

[torger]

The detachable digital back market (Phase One, Hasselblad) is quite different from the integrated body market (Pentax, Leica), and I think they can operate quite isolated from eachother.

I have zero interest in Pentax or Leica as I need a digital back to attach to my tech camera.

If Sony would do an "RXm" (fixed lens "compact" with 44x33 sensor), it would be another MF category still, not threatening the other systems regardless of how cheap the product would become. Such a product would also fit their "consumer" profile better, their camera interfaces is like a mobile phone, graphical and toyish, much less of the feeling of a professional tool like you would need out of a full-featured MF pro system to compete with Phase One and Hasselblad.

 

[fotografz]

While I agree that Sony is not going to enter the MFD market, that statement is far too simple. The Alpha and Nex line of cameras has a strong Minolta heritage. Minolta did have a strong bent toward consumer cameras with occasional burst of brilliance and innovation. They did have some professional-level products, but they never pursued the professional market the way Canon and Nikon did. I see more of Minolta in what Sony is doing than I see Sony's culture. But then I might be biased as a former Konica Minolta Photo Imaging employee that worked with a lot of the folks that moved to Sony. I also have no idea what Sony's culture is, or at least no more than anyone outside the company.

It isn't difficult to see what the Sony focus is … just look at their product line-up. Their hallmark (was) innovation in applying new technology to mass consumer e-products.

While they've abdicated that leadership to new companies like Apple, the way forward was paved by Sony innovation at first.

Maybe that's why Minolta was a good "cultural" fit for Sony? Strong consumer orientation with occasional bursts of innovation.

- Marc

 

[Geoff]

Now that's a great idea: stuff the 44x33 sensor in a body with a different set of mounts. Boy, now that would be fun. Scare the heck out of P1 etc. A cheap backup back, put on the back of your tech camera, live view, etc. Cool.

 

[fotografz]

There is a sort of parallel analogy regarding a sensor maker being in the same business that their sensor customers are in.

The Kodak Proback was quite an innovative at the time, and the progression of development, features, applications and pricing rocked the MFD DB world. Untethered shooting! Articulated LCD! ISO 400! Menu cropping choices! One has to wonder what it would be like had they continued in that manner?

This was a relatively short lived existence once other DB makers and camera companies began uniting. I'm sure selling sensors to other makers was more lucrative than marketing their own back … especially if all the competition moved their business to Dalsa or some other sensor foundry … and the cameras now owned by the DB companies shut Kodak out from camera protocols.

- Marc