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Thread: PENTAX 645D II

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    What I find the most interesting of all in these releases is EVERYONE turned to Sony for the 50mpx Sensor. To me regardless of form factor on bodies this is truly unique and at the same time not a very good sign for the MF sensor players out there. We went from 3 to 1 sensor maker and the one left standing was the CMOS maker Sony. I find this very odd and also makes Sony holding the cards. I would watch it this stops Sony at nothing throwing this sensor in a body of there own or even a cut down version for there A series bodies.

    Right now with the A7r they certainly have the tech to do just about anything and more important the balls to do it.
    Although I realize different cameras that utilize the same chip such as the D800 and A7r often have different imaging attributes due to electronics and optics used, there certainly is a similarity or family resemblance as to image characteristics. This in itself has me a bit worried with regards to all these MF cameras now using the same 50mm Sony chip. At the price points of some of the MF cameras, one would hope to see great diversity in image look from them.

    Whether that's the case is to be seen but like Guy I to am a bit worried when it now comes down to a single chip maker for implementation.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    I think CMOS vs CCD is a myth, and it's all about CFA (plus raw converter and profiling) which I think can be different between manufacturers even if the base sensor is the same. Thus I'm not too worried.
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    How big is Pentax 645D in studio, fashion, commercials? I'm thinking that it's the space held by Hasselblad and Phase, and Pentax is more for the outdoor shooter, but I'm not sure.

    I'd surely choose the Pentax over the Phase 645DF+ if I would have only one camera. But money aside I choose a Phase back with a tech cam over a Pentax for shooting landscape. I just love the tech cam workflow. But again, the reason I use MF is because of the tech cam. For DSLR-style of work I'm quite satisfied with my Canon, despite it's DR limits
    Sure, folks have preferences. While Pentax is new to the MFD market, it was not in the film market in commercial and fashion photography. I don't think there is such a thing as indoor or outdoor cameras. Steve McCurry used Hasselblad MFD cameras for his documentary work. I have use the Pentax in the studio--when I was looking to buy the camera, I found some videos of commercial photographer trying out the 645d for fashion.

    Now the big question is also price. If Pentax hits $10K again, many photographers that thought MFD was too expensive to enter would be interested. There are very few photographers, professional or amateur, that can drop $35K on a camera. I imagine Hasselblad is going to be closer to Phase in price.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    What I find the most interesting of all in these releases is EVERYONE turned to Sony for the 50mpx Sensor.
    That way, when Sony goes bankrupt, we are all .

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Although I realize different cameras that utilize the same chip such as the D800 and A7r often have different imaging attributes due to electronics and optics used, there certainly is a similarity or family resemblance as to image characteristics. This in itself has me a bit worried with regards to all these MF cameras now using the same 50mm Sony chip. At the price points of some of the MF cameras, one would hope to see great diversity in image look from them.

    Whether that's the case is to be seen but like Guy I to am a bit worried when it now comes down to a single chip maker for implementation.

    Dave (D&A)
    Me too Dave. I'm not liking the fact they are all relying on one chip maker. And as Will said above . Hello
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Right now Bob mentioned too me Sony stock is not so hot right now due to many factors outside the camera side. Being aggressive they may just do something radical here.

    Let's face it even if you own Phase you still want Hassy, Pentax, Leica, Sinar and Leaf in the market as a end user.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Me too Dave. I'm not liking the fact they are all relying on one chip maker. And as Will said above . Hello
    Still a good chance that Leica will turn to CMOSIS for the next S chip...

    Rob

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    I have no doubts Leica will, the writing is on the wall with the M240. They will leverage that chip.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    The success of this camera could trigger very interesting possibilities for the market and of course, for users as well. Sigma could start an Art series line for 645 cameras and tilt adapters could sprout to use with "true" MF lenses for correction or flat stitching. Or maybe they already exist?!!!
    Eduardo

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Zork does an adaptor that allows the use of Pentax 67 45mm lenses on smaller medium format systems with movements.
    Ed Hurst, www.spiffingpics.com
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    The 645D was never really a big success mainly thanks to the D800E. The 645D just does not have much better image quality overall than the Nikon (dynamic range is even a touch less on the Pentax). Specially for landscape situations. It is one of the reasons I sold it. For working with people it is awesome though because of the good AF, superb handling and different color and generally shallower dof (has a different look even at mid apertures) although I much prefer the look of the Dalsa sensor in the IQ backs.

    The 645D II changes this being that it has a 50MP sensor and Live View. So it separates itself nicely from the D800E for Landscapes. Should give up nothing to the Nikon in regards to Dynamic Range, High Iso / Long Exposure performance (if anything it might be better) and functionality (thx to Live View!) and of course 50mp is a significant increase from 36mp. Not huge, but significant enough, at least for marketing purposes and it should do very well against the D800E in side by side tests.

    .
    I find even from websize images the IQ from the Pentax 645 looks much better than that of the nikon. just my subjective impression.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    As a user of the D800E and 645D (for their different strengths), I have to agree. 645D files are much better (for me). I only use the D800E when its relative strengths require it (better at high ISO, ability to shoot long exposures without dark frames). But, in market terms, you may be right. The perception that the D800E is close to medium format quality is enough to knock sales, I expect...
    Last edited by Ed Hurst; 6th February 2014 at 14:00.
    Ed Hurst, www.spiffingpics.com
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Me too Dave. I'm not liking the fact they are all relying on one chip maker. And as Will said above . Hello
    The biggest problem in having one chip maker, which I personally see as a god thing, is how are the MFDB makers going to legitimize their prices if this Pentax is only $10K? Most coming from medium format film could never legitimize a switch to medium format digital, but Sony's involvement might start driving prices in the right direction.

    For now, Phase and others will still have the larger CCD chips to draw people in, but I can't imagine spending so much more for the Phase or Hassy back with this new 33x44 CMOS sensor, assuming this new 645D does fall around $10K. The larger chips will always be more expensive, because it takes more than two stitched sensors to build them, but this 33x44 crop chip only takes two stitched sensors, just like a 35mm sensor, so the prices should reflect that.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    This seems to be an economy of scale. While MFD companies may be swapping market shares, the over-all share is pretty small.

    In a Forbe's interview with Leica's head of Professional Photo, Stephan Schulz said they estimate the core MFD market at roughly 6,000 units per year world-wide, for all brands. He claimed Leica already had 20% of that (1,200 units, which outstripped Leica's ability to manufacture). Even if Phase has 50% of the market, that's 3,000 units spread out over a whole line of various different backs between Leaf and P1.

    How Leica Camera Is Reinventing The Medium-Format Market On Its Own Terms - Forbes

    The unknown since then is the continued impact of a persistently challenging photo economy, and the continued onslaught of high res 35mm. Hey, when you are running out of business capital, 36 meg FF for under 3K starts looking very good.

    All these sensor makers have bigger businesses in industrial and smaller sensor manufacture both CCD and CMOS. Reinventing the wheel for every new low volume MFD camera doesn't seem likely.

    Whether Leica adopts this Sony sensor or turns to CMOSIS for a upsized version of the M240 base sensor remains to be seen. Either way, it's an "odd man out" sized sensor anyway.

    Whether the CCD CMOS difference is a myth, is a myth itself. It needs to be proven, and so far the difference hasn't been disproved, especially in the areas of color that is so important to consistent MFD users. Maybe Phase with Capture One will finally do exactly that. We'll see.

    Gotta hand it to Phase One they beat everyone to the punch again. I must say, if they had a camera to go with those backs it'd be all over but the "cry in and whining". Probably P1 and "boutique" Leica left standing.

    Just my opinion.

    - Marc

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    I don't think Phase beat anybody. So far they, Hasselblad, and Pentax have announced a CMOS MFD camera. Even though Phase has the product out first, the other two are on the horizon. Unlike a good beer, I don't need an MFD camera now. I can wait. Besides, being first has its downsides if something goes wrong.

    I also wonder if Phase is paying a premium to be first...

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Pentax success for decades for better or worse has always been a value leader and the 645D was no exception. I believe that will continue with the new 645DII. In that regard I think Pentax in some respects is in a slightly different market than Phase, Hassy, Leica etc. Their recent lens introductions though at high price points I believe was in some instances in the wrong direction and not in true Pentax spirit of an entry way to MFD.

    Lastly, like aspects of high end audio equipmenr, the ears or eyew as one would have it, sees or hear things that lot can't always be measured in numbers. My gut feelings so far has usually favored CCD output for color depth perception and the overall look of image output. Whatever it's due to has been my impression. That's not to say there aren't knock your socks off CMOS based cameras.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 6th February 2014 at 16:54.
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Pentax success for decades for better or worse has always been a value leader and the 645D was no exception. I believe that will continue with the new 645DII. In that regard I think Pentax in some respects is in a slightly different market than Phase, Hassy, Leica etc. Their recent lens introductions though at high price points I believe was in some instances in the wrong direction and not in true Pentax spirit of an entry way to MFD.
    Dave (D&A)
    I agree Dave. I think if Pentax had re-released many of their best FA lenses at sub-$2k prices when the original 645D was released, they would have been in a better position to lure new buyers, who didn't already have a stake in the P645 or P67 film systems. For many of those people, a more complete 645D system might have been an attractive alternative to a Nikon D800 or to other cameras at the low end of the MFD market.

    It's my impression that those 645 FA lenses are still available new in Japan. If that's true, Pentax should have ramped up production to deliver these lenses with the 645D in global markets. They could have still released some of the higher end lenses, like the new 25mm and 90mm lenses for those who wanted the ultimate in IQ, while they continued to develop a line of weather resistant lenses specifically for the 645D.

    Instead, many people were left scrounging for used P645 or P67 lenses wherever they could find them.

    Oh well, that's water under the bridge now. One way or another however, they need more lenses for this system, if it's going to have a long term future....no matter what improvements they make to the camera. I hope the new wide angle zoom is something on par with the FA 45-85mm lens (or wider) and is in the $2k price range, not $4k+.

    Gary

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post

    I also wonder if Phase is paying a premium to be first...
    "To be first" is the definition of "beating someone to the punch".

    Hasselblad announced it's H4D/60 on the "Horizon". Turned out that "Horizon" was well over a year away.

    - Marc

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Pentax success for decades for better or worse has always been a value leader and the 645D was no exception. I believe that will continue with the new 645DII. In that regard I think Pentax in some respects is in a slightly different market than Phase, Hassy, Leica etc. Their recent lens introductions though at high price points I believe was in some instances in the wrong direction and not in true Pentax spirit of an entry way to MFD.

    Lastly, like aspects of high end audio equipmenr, the ears or ears as one would have it, sees or hear things that lot can't always be measured in numbers. My gut feelings so far has usually favored CCD output for color depth perception and the overall look of image output. Whatever it's due to has been my impression. That's not to say there aren't knock your socks off CMOS based cameras.

    Dave (D&A)
    Sure, Pentax 645 has always been a value leader, but there's a bit of a difference between saving $1000 in buying the Pentax 645NII vs. the Mamiya 645AF in 2002 (with a film back and standard lens,) compared to the $25,000 one would save in buying the 645D II (assuming it'll be around $10K) vs. the IQ250...and that doesn't even include the price of the camera to put on the IQ250!

    As I mentioned earlier, I could see someone justifying the price of the larger CCD backs from Phase and Hasselblad, but I can't imagine someone spending $25K more for the Phase or Hasselblad back, if the 645Dii is only $10K, and that includes the camera body. We'll see.
    Last edited by douglasf13; 6th February 2014 at 16:40.
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    The larger chips will always be more expensive, because it takes more than two stitched sensors to build them, but this 33x44 crop chip only takes two stitched sensors, just like a 35mm sensor, so the prices should reflect that...
    You would hope so:
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I
    ..............It's my impression that those 645 FA lenses are still available new in Japan. ..................

    Gary
    And Asia, Europe, Canada etc. It's my understanding that it was Pentax USA who declined to bring in the old lenses; they didn't even want the 645D. John Carlson (marketing manager) said they would never sell more than 200.
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Gary, spot on! I think if Pentax had made available most of their legacy lenses brand new, there would have been a larger number of individuals who would have considered the 645D. As it was Pentax did continue production of many of these lenses but only authorized Pentax entities in Japan and parts of Europe and Asia were privy to their availabilty. Pentax USA opted out except for allowing those authorized to sell the 645D in the US, to special order certain select legacy lenses and made only a few models available.

    That's one of the reasons I went on a mission to test as big a variety (and multiple samples) of as many legacy lenses as possible and list my results here on Getdpi. With a modest investment and a fair amount of testing, it's possible to put together a reasonable size and priced kit of the these lenses but not everyone entering a system wants to do this or rely on used lenses.

    I also agree, having a mix of more expensive weather resistant lenses along side some of their legacy lenses at a lower cost, would definitely make this a highly desirable and popular entry way for many interested in MFD.

    I too spent a lot of time testing the D800 vs. the 645D in terms of file quality and overall appeal of the image and my findings parellel those of Ed and others. On paper the two cameras have similar resolution but that's where the differences end in my opinion. Each tool has their strengths and weaknesses for a variety of applications but in terms of shear image quality, it's easy for me to pick the one that appeals to me most often.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Lol...Tom, I was busy typing my post above while you posted yours about Pentax USA and legacy lenses. Yes Pentax USA wanted little to do with the 645D and especially investing heavily in 645 legacy lenses. It was during economic difficult times both in general and for Pentax USA as a whole. The timing was bad. If the 645D had come out some years earlier or even at this current date, I believe we might have seen a more supportive Pentax USA.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    This seems to be an economy of scale. While MFD companies may be swapping market shares, the over-all share is pretty small.

    ...............- Marc
    It may be small market, but Pentax's decision to go ahead with the 645DII is a positive sign. Phase and Hasselblad only do medium format, they have little choice but to continue with MF (excluding the Hasselblad dressing up of Sony bodies). Pentax could drop the 645 and focus on the K series, but they seem to think the MF market is there.
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "To be first" is the definition of "beating someone to the punch".

    Hasselblad announced it's H4D/60 on the "Horizon". Turned out that "Horizon" was well over a year away.

    - Marc
    ??? Hasselblad announced the H5D-50c would go on sale in March. That is a month away. A month difference is about as simultaneous a release can be with two different companies in the photo biz.

    Beside, the H5D-50c is the World's first MFD with a CMOS! Don't believe me? Just read the Hasselblad press release! Who is beating who and what kind of feathers are they using?

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    It may be small market, but Pentax's decision to go ahead with the 645DII is a positive sign. Phase and Hasselblad only do medium format, they have little choice but to continue with MF (excluding the Hasselblad dressing up of Sony bodies). Pentax could drop the 645 and focus on the K series, but they seem to think the MF market is there.
    The sixty-four-thousand-dollar question is the price. I hope it also not the answer.
    Will

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The sixty-four-thousand-dollar question is the price. I hope it also not the answer.
    Or even half that. Based on what I've read, 10k is a target price for Pentax and frankly if the 645DII is much more, it will have a hard time competing with the 645D at 7k.
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    When they release the 645DII, it will mean that stocks of the 645D are gone or almost gone. They may even drop the price of the 645D a little more to clear it out.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Assuming the larger CMOS fab costs the same as the 35mm sensor fab.

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    The larger chips will always be more expensive, because it takes more than two stitched sensors to build them, but this 33x44 crop chip only takes two stitched sensors, just like a 35mm sensor, so the prices should reflect that.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    This Sony sensor thing reminds me of the good old days of film. Remember when you could buy a Mamiya, Hasselblad, and Pentax camera and stick the same roll of film in them?

    And this is what I think is going to be really interesting to see how each manufacturer handles signal processing and color. It will fun to see where these cameras intersect and diverge.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    This Sony sensor thing reminds me of the good old days of film. Remember when you could buy a Mamiya, Hasselblad, and Pentax camera and stick the same roll of film in them?

    And this is what I think is going to be really interesting to see how each manufacturer handles signal processing and color. It will fun to see where these cameras intersect and diverge.
    True but optics will also play a big role in image output too. Look at the original Leica S2 and 645D...apparently same sensor yet image characteristics quite different. I attribute this more to the lenses than anything else. From what I've seen first hand of Pentax 67 lenses on the S2 via adapter, they were quite similar to those same lenses on the 645D.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    True but optics will also play a big role in image output too. Look at the original Leica S2 and 645D...apparently same sensor yet image characteristics quite different. I attribute this more to the lenses than anything else. From what I've seen first hand of Pentax 67 lenses on the S2 via adapter, they were quite similar to those same lenses on the 645D.
    Dave (D&A)
    Wow...I didn't know that the 645D and Leica S2 had the same sensor. Do you have a link you could post here about that Dave?

    I have got to get out there and shoot more with my 645D. With a whole arsenal of P645, P67 and Hasselblad Zeiss lenses to use on the 645D, I have no excuses.

    Gary

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    True but optics will also play a big role in image output too. Look at the original Leica S2 and 645D...apparently same sensor yet image characteristics quite different. I attribute this more to the lenses than anything else. From what I've seen first hand of Pentax 67 lenses on the S2 via adapter, they were quite similar to those same lenses on the 645D.

    Dave (D&A)
    Dave, the lenses will have some influence. But it is possible to put the same optics on all three. I would also imagine modern lenses will be closer and the companies will profile them. And to be honest, Pentax 67 lenses are not a great test. I had the 105mm for my 645D and the difference in color and contrast between that and the DFA 55mm is striking (the 645D works differently with 67 lenses and 645 lenses). I sold the 67 lens for the macro 120mm and the color is much closer to the new Pentax lens. I think if you tested those cameras with their native 120mm macros (all fine lenses), you would get a pretty good idea in the difference among cameras.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    I have a great idea. We need four East coast members: one to buy the Hasselblad, one to buy the Phase, one to buy the Pentax, and I will buy the beer. We get together and take pictures and drink beer. I am sure we will have results!
    Will

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Right now Bob mentioned too me Sony stock is not so hot right now due to many factors outside the camera side. Being aggressive they may just do something radical here.

    Let's face it even if you own Phase you still want Hassy, Pentax, Leica, Sinar and Leaf in the market as a end user.
    Hi

    I remember reading that - what is keeping Sony Corp above water is the - Believe it or not - their insurance division. Their electronics division has yet to turn a profit in recent years. Surely the demise of "point and shot " cameras - due to cell phones is not helping.

    Phil

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Maybe a red herring - but does bit depth have anything in real life to become a selling point? The IQ 250 is advertised as 16 bit.

    Phil

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    I'd also like to see the source of the info that the S2 and 645D used the same sensor. To my knowledge, it was the Hasselblad H4D/40 and the 645D that used the same Kodak sensor.

    I have had the opportunity to use two sets of modern optics on the S2 some of the newer HC and HCD Hasselblad lenses, and the native S and CS Leica optics.

    I initially tested a H4D/40 against the S2 using the same HC and HCD lenses on both cameras.

    I then sold the H4D/40 because the S2 with S lenses outperformed the Hasselblad H4D/40 (Leica claimed that the S lenses made up for the smaller sensor size of the S2 and could compete with a 50 meg sensor). IQ itself wasn't enough to swap, but the S form factor and dual shutter ability, plus full functioning H to S adapter made the Leica more attractive long term.

    As far as I know, the original S2 sensor is the same one used in the newer S. The processing engine and buffer was altered to improve some performance factors.

    Point is, while using other system lenses can be fun and creatively interesting IMO, a system needs its native lenses for optimal performance. The ground up S system had this advantage going it although the lack of S lenses initially made it less attractive, that is an issue since resolved.

    - Marc

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Can you draw that conclusion Marc or is the conclusion that the S lenses are simply superior?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Different sensors:
    Leica S2/S use Kodak 45mm x 30mm 7500 x 5000 pixel 6.0 um CCD
    Pentax 645D, PhaseOne P40+/IQ140, Leaf Creo 40/Aptus II 8 use Dalsa 44mm x 33mm 7360 x 5562 pixel 6.0 um CCD

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Can you draw that conclusion Marc or is the conclusion that the S lenses are simply superior?
    "Superior" is going to be subjective no matter how you look at it Ben. Leica makes that claim, but it is in the eye of the beholder in the end.

    I thought the S lenses resolved better, and provided a micro contrast that had a similar look and feel to many of my Leica M lenses on a CCD M9. Other's have made a similar observation. Images shot with the S and M9 have a consistent look and feel, with the S simply being a larger file.

    What is also somewhat telling is the software profile corrections on the S lens images are much less severe than any others I've used. With some S lenses there is almost no corrections applied. Big correction difference between the Hasselblad wide angles and the Leica WAs. No comparison.

    However, Hasselblad's recent HC50/3.5-II was such an improvement over the lens it replaced that I'd say it challenges the superiority claim but I haven't tested it against Leica's new 45/2.8, nor am I likely to.

    The only Hasselblad lens I kept was the HC100/2.2 which exhibits more CA than the S lenses, but the character of the 100mm is worth it and there is nothing between the S70mm and S120 Macro with the S macro being to slow for fast paced AF portraits making the HC100/2.2 my default portrait lens on the S2.


    - Marc
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Wow...I didn't know that the 645D and Leica S2 had the same sensor. Do you have a link you could post here about that Dave?

    I have got to get out there and shoot more with my 645D. With a whole arsenal of P645, P67 and Hasselblad Zeiss lenses to use on the 645D, I have no excuses.

    Gary
    The S2 uses the KAF-37500 and the Pentax uses the KAF-40000,the Leica is 16bit and the Pentax 14bit afaik..

    Size is slightly different,45x30 vs 44x33..

    Rob
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    Different sensors:
    Leica S2/S use Kodak 45mm x 30mm 7500 x 5000 pixel 6.0 um CCD
    Pentax 645D, PhaseOne P40+/IQ140, Leaf Creo 40/Aptus II 8 use Dalsa 44mm x 33mm 7360 x 5562 pixel 6.0 um CCD
    Not sure this is correct either.

    A quote from reviews when the 645D was launched:

    "The PENTAX 645D incorporates a high-performance CCD image sensor produced by Kodak".


    To my knowledge, this was the same sensor as used in the Hasselblad H4D/40 although what each company did with the rest of the imaging chain was surely different. Dalsa made the later P1 and Leaf sensors, and Hasselblad used a Dalsa 60 meg sensor in its H4D/60.

    - Marc

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Pentax USA totally killed the 645D in the US. I tried really hard to work with them, and they disappeared when I pointed out basic use issues and sought help. By comparison, Pentax's man in Canada is terrific, but that's not enough. There needs to be a clean-out at Pentax USA. They have phenomenal products that need a company worthy to bring it to market.

    - N.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Capture Integration is a dealer for the current Pentax 645D if and when this new version is Shipped they should be able to give a good support. My only issue with the original 645D was it took almost 2 years to get to market and after waiting for a while I moved to Phase One and purchased a P45+.

    My issue was service and support and CI should be able to address that also.

    As many people have mentioned the other weakness was availability of good glass. One of the best lenses Pentax made (still does in Japan) was the 35FA. I owned one for years and it was a good copy. Us edit with a Zork adapter on Canon for 5 years. Finally sold it to a friend who had purchased the 645D. I should note that lens was made in Vietnam which surprised me at the time.

    Hope to see this new version do well in the US.

    Paul C

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Dave, the lenses will have some influence. But it is possible to put the same optics on all three. I would also imagine modern lenses will be closer and the companies will profile them. And to be honest, Pentax 67 lenses are not a great test. I had the 105mm for my 645D and the difference in color and contrast between that and the DFA 55mm is striking (the 645D works differently with 67 lenses and 645 lenses). I sold the 67 lens for the macro 120mm and the color is much closer to the new Pentax lens. I think if you tested those cameras with their native 120mm macros (all fine lenses), you would get a pretty good idea in the difference among cameras.
    Will, that's almost exactly what I did when I had the chance to perform a head to head simultaneous test between the 645D with its FA 120 645 macro vs. Both the Leica S and S2 bodies with Leica ' s own 120 "S" macro....In both close up portrait shooting as well as a few city scape distant shots. These two 120mm lenses are considered one of the best from each manufacturer. Since each camera supposedly has the similar sensors and there is no way to mount the Leica lens on the Pentax body (or visa versa), this was the closest test of the two sensors I could perform at the time.

    I just haven't had the time to post the unadjusted Raws nor crops nor describe the results ( which I hope to do in the future), but I got a good sense that what differences I was seeing was mainly due to the differences in the optics.

    Apparently the Pentax 120 macro was designed to go down to 1:1 and therefore performed optimally between it's closest focusing distance to mid range. It did well at infinity but one could easily see it wasn't optimized for distant subjects ( nor should it have been). The Leica lens only has a reproduction ratio of 1:2 and seemed to do best at subject distances from something just short of 1:2 till almost infinity. It seems that was Leica's intent of making it more of an all-rounder.

    There was small differences of color depth and tonal response and other small things I could decern, but I was pleasantly surprised how close the results between the two cameras were with these lenses. Its no surprise though that what makes the Leica S camera such an incredable performer optically, is its S lenses. This of course comes as no surprise to anyone. Even Pentax ' s arguably best 645 lens, the 120 macro, was able to hold its own compared to the Leica 120 at closer subject d
    Last edited by D&A; 7th February 2014 at 07:44.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Devlin View Post
    Pentax USA totally killed the 645D in the US. I tried really hard to work with them, and they disappeared when I pointed out basic use issues and sought help. By comparison, Pentax's man in Canada is terrific, but that's not enough. There needs to be a clean-out at Pentax USA. They have phenomenal products that need a company worthy to bring it to market.

    - N.
    Nick, you're exactly right! I had a close working and professional relationship with Pentax USA for many years and they were outstanding in their support and in working on technical issues I might come across in both using and testing out their 35mm and medium format equipment. It even surpassed my relationship with Nikon. That was at a time up till a number of years ago when Pentax was a family owned corporation and had close control over Pentax USA.

    That all changed when the merger with Hoya took place and Pentax USA was completely gutted. It was a shell of its former self and more of a clearing house than a subsidarary of Pentax Japan. Unfortunately this was just around the time of the 645D release and support for the system as you noted was virtually non existant. If the 645D was released a number of years earlier, I think we'd all would have been mostly pleased with not only support of the 645D but wider availabilty of new legacy lenses, at least here in the USA.

    From what I understand, it was Pentax USA ' S call in how they supported the 645D and for whatever reason, Pentax Japan hands were tied. In other words it didn't seem the home office in Japan was inclined to intervene...Unfortunately.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 7th February 2014 at 07:48.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    Maybe a red herring - but does bit depth have anything in real life to become a selling point? The IQ 250 is advertised as 16 bit.

    Phil
    Phase does this with all their backs. Basically, they simply put in a 16-bit A/D converter regardless if the sensor can actually produce 16-bits of data. There are no true 16-bit cameras available. DxO mark scores confirm this, BTW. This is just a little bit (no pun intended) dishonest of Phase.
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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    Different sensors:
    Leica S2/S use Kodak 45mm x 30mm 7500 x 5000 pixel 6.0 um CCD
    Pentax 645D, PhaseOne P40+/IQ140, Leaf Creo 40/Aptus II 8 use Dalsa 44mm x 33mm 7360 x 5562 pixel 6.0 um CCD
    But the underlying technology is not going to be different. Even if Leica puts in a 16-bit A/D converter. Leica simply seem to have bough exclusivity to the sensor.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    From what I understand, it was Pentax USA ' S call in how they supported the 645D and for whatever reason, Pentax Japanese hands were tied. In other words it didn't seem the home office in Japan was inclined to intervene...Unfortunately.

    Dave (D&A)
    Unfortunately, the overseas corporations are regarded as somewhat independent can can make choices over products. A number of cameras that are sold in Japan don't make it to the US. The other driver of model choice can be large retail buyers. If they don't want a particular model, it may be enough not to offer it in a region.

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    Re: PENTAX 645D II

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "To be first" is the definition of "beating someone to the punch".

    Hasselblad announced it's H4D/60 on the "Horizon". Turned out that "Horizon" was well over a year away.

    - Marc
    This is a great moment to infer if it was due to Phase One exclusivity on the sensor, due to lack of expertise with Dalsa Sensors (Phase one was smart and they buy leaf) or plain incompetence.

    Best regards,

    J. Duncan

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