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Thread: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

  1. #1
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    Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Hi forum!
    Sit back and enjoy a tale of mystery, intrigue, international espionage, SEX, medium format digital cameras, Israeli hostage negotiations, pole dancing, and murder!….

    Actually I made up the parts about sex, pole dancing, and murder… just to try and maintain some interest
    But the rest is mostly true…mostly…

    Sorry for the long story, but thought some may find it interesting and hoping for some advice.
    I wanted to get your thoughts about what I should do about an issue I am dealing with regarding repair of my Leaf AptusII-12 back.

    I am not going to name anyone or any company I am dealing with, because I do not want any hard feelings. I have always been served well by my sales rep, and Mamiya/Leaf, and the company I purchased my mfd gear from.
    Unfortunately; some things have happened that are unusual and making me question the service I am getting. I am hoping for some feedback.

    A few weeks ago, one of my studio assistants was reaching for a falling fill card on the set and accidentally hit the release button on the DF. She caught the back, so it didn’t hit the floor or anything major like that, but the IR filter did hit a rubber grip on the tripod head, causing it to break in front of the sensor. I called my sales rep and he said to package it well and send it in immediately.
    I was informed that this may incur a repair cost of as much as $2500+ but we will see when they get it.
    We have access to a real “clean-room” and inspected the sensor with a 10x loop, and saw no sensor damage at all.
    One of my assistants boxed it up like the delicate instrument it is, wrapped entirely in anti-static and foam… and sent it in.

    A few days later I received a report saying that the cost of repair would be about $1500 and all that was necessary was a new IR filter, and to authorize a credit card for this. We did.

    A few days later, I received an email that said they wanted to send it to the factory in Israel for “better more extensive cleaning of the sensor. I was told they would handle all this internally (they would ship) and they were doing this because that they just did not have the appropriate “factory” facilities to do a thorough job. They said they did not expect further costs but would let me know if incurred.
    I said OK, go ahead.

    A week and half later, I received an email saying that “significant increase in repair costs needed to be approved….The report said that the entire CCD sensor now needed to be replaced, as well as its Firewire800 assembly…incurring a new revised repair cost of $15,085.00!!!
    I was also told that “if I refused all service, I would now be charged $700… just for the diagnoses.
    So in other words, they have my Leaf AptusII-12 back, want $15K to repair, or $700 to return it un-repaired (I assume).
    I have repeatedly inquired for any further clarification of these “damages” to the sensor that render it “inoperable” but have not received any reply other than “The sensor has now been deemed “damaged and inoperable and must be replaced, as well as the FW assembly”

    I feel like my mfd back is being held hostage, in Israel, for at least $700 I never agreed to, for damages I can not verify, or get any clarification of.

    My business insurance doesn’t cover damage, only theft or total studio loss.

    So I am now questioning the meaning of life, the universe, and everything…or at least what $15k may get me in used mfd replacement gear, any trade-in value from Leaf or PhaseOne?….or whether I should pay the $15k and get back an “as new” 80MP AptusII-12 back and get better insurance for next time?
    Should I fight the $700 charge and just get the Aptus back and take my chances? What if it was damaged further after “they” received it? How would I know?

    Any thoughts or advice is always appreciated.
    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Egor; 8th February 2014 at 10:50. Reason: add pic

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Wow---that sounds like a horrible nightmare.

    Something doesn't sound right---particularly the decision by the servicing party to now see some need to send the back in for more "extensive cleaning." Then to later be hit with $700 if you refused service seems to add more insult to injury. Do you know how much sex and pole dancing you can get with $700? Just outrageous. (had to work that back into the story line).

    It sounds to me more like "theft by trick or device." Theft being covered by insurance.

    I hope you find a better resolution---and hope your dealer will come clean and go to bat for you. ~$16K isn't chump change. Maybe a better explanation by the servicing center on how the CCD sensor was damaged and why the entire FW800 assembly now needs to be replaced would help. It doesn't sound right.

    ken

    p.s. You wouldn't know if the damage was incurred after the service center received it---you rely on honesty and integrity of the facility technicians. But that IR filter looks like it took a nastier hit than just a bump and hairline crack. *ouch*

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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Did you try to shoot with the back after the damage but before sending it in?

    You could tell them to just replace the IR Filter and send the back back....
    That will cost you the $1.500.

    Peter
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Well, first, I would get them to drop the $700 of the evaluation if they promised no charge. You have to have the claim for free service in writing. Then you can get your back back. If the offer was verbal, then you will need to pay $700 as you have no proof. I would also get the service folks on your side so they can pressure the factory.

    I am suspecting the sensor was damaged in the fall and the service people misinterpreted the damage with dust.
    Last edited by Shashin; 8th February 2014 at 11:30.

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    It was mostly just a series of hairline cracks and my assistant caught it upside down and decided to remove the IR filter (while still facing down) so as to not allow any glass particles to touch the sensor. So the breaks you see fell out after sensor was removed.

    No I did not authorize shooting without the IR filter because I was concerned about ESD damage if powered up. Probably should have and it probably would have been fine (other than no IR filter) but will never know. I am afraid that if I pay the $1500 and replace the IR filter it will come back "non-working and I will be out over $2k
    (probably will be $2200 because they will now want the addl $700)

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Give your assistant a raise and then deduct the cost of the repair from her paycheck? You could break even...

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Hi Shashin,
    Great minds think alike! My acct says that repairs are deductible either way so it's a good idea but not necessary I think. No different than just lending the money to myself and depreciating...iow, hell with her, give myself the raise!

    I do not have any proof in writing that they wouldn't charge me for evaluation, but numerous emails that do not mention it and say specifically that there would probably be no addl charge (to send to Israel) but if so they would let me know.

    I have figured out how to actually work in the sex, pole dancing and murder aspects of the story:

    The assistant who broke the back is sexy, Scottish, and looks like Amy Pond from the Doctor Who series
    She was essentially "dancing" around a 9ft Cambo UST stand to catch the camera, which is essentially a giant steel pole
    If this ends up costing me $15k there is a good chance my wife will murder her
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    What a nightmare :-(

    It surprises me that a sensor replacement is $15K. I would expect the sensor cost $5K tops, if even that. Reason backs are expensive is due to low sales volumes, not ultra-expensive sensors or other expensive manufacturing. But maybe these "non-standard" 80 megapixel sensors really are super-expensive. Does sound to me like they're charging more than they need though, but sure they're free to do that. It's more expensive to buy a new one.

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    I hear you, torger.
    Are you familiar with the story of the nuclear engineer who puts a pencil "x" on a trouble spot at a nuke plant? They get his bill for $50,000.25 broken down as

    #2 pencil___$0.25
    knowing where to put pencil mark__$50,000

  10. #10
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    I had a similar situation when I broke the IR glass on my Aptus 65. It went to MAC group who assessed the sensor as being damaged beyond economical repair as a few glass specs had impacted the sensor itself, resulting in a small number of spots on the sensor. Since these are probably less than the amount of dust on my main back on a bad day, plus they correct out with an LCC, I asked them to sell me the IR filter alone and let me fit it in a 'clean' environment and be done with it. However, they initially refused and wanted the $1200 or so I think it was to replace and mount the IR glass using the 4 screws on the back. This was just going to be for fitting - no re calibration etc etc. Having been a Kodak DCS645M user where the removable filter was a "feature" I wasn't really impressed by this.

    In the end my dealer went to bat for me and convinced MAC to sell the replacement IR filter on its own (it comes in a snazzy green metallic finish box btw - I was surprised!). Net result was I got the filter for $850 and replaced it myself. The back is still rolling along although I got the originally broken glass filter frame cleaned up and a 720nm IR pass filter fitted so that now I can swap between regular IR cut or IR pass filters.

    Btw, I had to force MAC Group to send me their test images that showed any damage to the sensor. They weren't at all happy about having to do that but my dealer really helped push them.

    You have my sympathies at being held hostage by Leaf. As Will said, if you weren't aware of the extra $700 diagnosis fee then I'd strongly fight them over this. I would definitely get them to justify their damage assessment with evidence. I think it's too easy for a tech to decide unilaterally what constitutes damage worthy of $15k of work vs what you might deem economically and practically acceptable for images in the real world.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 8th February 2014 at 21:19.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Hi Graham,
    Your story gives me hope! Thank you!
    Like I said, I like my dealer and have always had good service from him. Perhaps he is going to bat for me and I just don't know it yet. Lately he has been somewhat less communicative than usual, but I give him the benefit of the doubt because I suspect he may be busy with the new IQ250. Then again, its been 3 weeks now, he nevah calls, he nevah writes...oi vey

    My main assistant has been saying the exact same thing, and thinks the damage may be totally acceptable to us. I keep asking for more info about the "actual" state of the back and keep getting the same response. Possibly a communication error with the Israeli techs at Leaf? In any case, I will definitely try to get more info from him starting Monday morning.

    I have also found a P65 that I can get for sub-$10k and am considering it as a replacement. I always wanted a P65 anyway so that may work out quite nicely. (except for the being out $10k I wasn't expecting this year ...still better than being out $15k ) and if the Leaf back returns and is useable...

  12. #12
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    I've had a support issue with Leaf concerning a back that wouldn't work in the cold. I eventually got help and I'm very pleased with the end result but I took a lot of patience and nagging. It was very clear to me that they have an organizational problem, they can't really do support well. I was surprised that an organization that sells to professionals don't have better support, as I was thinking support was a prior concern for professionals. I've understood afterwards that what you need to get a good support is a super-dealer that takes the Leaf/Phase fight for you, if you have a busy undermanned dealer which don't have time to help you much (which I'd say is common here in Europe) you need to fight for yourself.

    But if you are patient and push (or have a dealer that can push for you) then it can sort out in a good way. Of course if the sensor really is broken beyond use it's bad, but if it's still usable you should be able to get it back with just the IR filter replaced. First step is to get them to precisely specify what the error is, eg send you test images and show to you how broken (or not) it is. It's the least one could ask when they want to charge you with a $15K repair. I find it quite upsetting that they're so sloppy handling these kind of very costly repairs.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Your dealer generally is your friend in these matters. In my experience all of the dealers and techs I've dealt with have always been very helpful in pushing the manufacturers. Let's face it, keeping the customer happy in MF is WELL worth their while and so without exception all of my dealers (Optechs, CI and DT) have been very helpful even if they didn't sell me the gear the first time around (although they all sold me plenty of other stuff as replacement or later!!).

    Have faith with your dealer first. They have an economic incentive to act for you, if they're smart.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  14. #14
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Btw, in all Leaf matters I highly recommend contacting Yair Shahar here and also Ziv Argov at Leaf directly. A direct call for the inside track can really help.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    I had a filter replaced and the whole camera checked to spec on a H3D-II/39. It was $550 + shipping to Sweden.

    $1,500 seems deliberately high, $700 inspection/hostage fee seems ludicrous, and $15,000 for an unspecified, non-detailed sensor replacement is beyond outrageous. Frankly, even if it were documented in detail, $15,000 seems outrageous IMHO.

    Someone at Leaf needs to wake up and smell the MFD forest burning. This kind of bad PR goes well beyond any cost of being considerate and supportive of the small cadre of MFD faithful. The internet is a powerful tool for or against you. They should know that.

    That said, I think it borders on insanity to operate a studio without full gear insurance … just jack up the deductible to reduce the premiums, which keeps it more for "disaster" coverage like this one (IF it actually is a disaster).

    - Marc
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Yes, Marc, I never really gave it much thought. I didn't know, until it was too late, that I could insure for breakage and the like. I had just the usual liability insurance and fire/theft/vandalism kindle thing. I self-insured for equipment failure all these years as my "photography empire" grew around me. (See attached)
    I now have joined PPA and have extra ins. from their plans; and have breakage and location insurance for gear and employees from package choice. I just didn't know about it before and had lots of other things to think about without realizing I was amassing a fortune in gear, furniture, computers, and software all the time

    Insanity? Guilty as charged! Total bonehead I was! What a rube, eh? Moron, thats me! OK I think we all get the idea...my bad

    In my defense....Almost all gear related to this business comes and goes obsolete so fast that I just didn't think insurance for such a thing was even out there....AND why didn't any of you geniuses out there tell me about this, or even discuss it from time to time!!!??? Or my insurance agent??? Or my dealer??? Yeah!! I blame everyone else!!Thats the ticket

    Graham, do you have those "inside track" phone numbers to Yair Shahir or Ziv Argov? That could really help me out here.
    Last edited by Egor; 9th February 2014 at 08:34.

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Kind of reminds me that I need to improve my own insurance. So far I've had the principle to not buy anything as expensive that I could not buy a new one if it would break. However my system has now grown so big and costly that if everything got destroyed at once in a fire or something I would certainly become a 135 shooter again

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    Yes, Marc, I never really gave it much thought. I didn't know, until it was too late, that I could insure for breakage and the like. I had just the usual liability insurance and fire/theft/vandalism kindle thing. I self-insured for equipment failure all these years as my "photography empire" grew around me. (See attached)
    I now have joined PPA and have extra ins. from their plans; and have breakage and location insurance for gear and employees from package choice. I just didn't know about it before and had lots of other things to think about without realizing I was amassing a fortune in gear, furniture, computers, and software all the time

    Insanity? Guilty as charged! Total bonehead I was! What a rube, eh? Moron, thats me! OK I think we all get the idea...my bad

    In my defense....Almost all gear related to this business comes and goes obsolete so fast that I just didn't think insurance for such a thing was even out there....AND why didn't any of you geniuses out there tell me about this, or even discuss it from time to time!!!??? Or my insurance agent??? Or my dealer??? Yeah!! I blame everyone else!!Thats the ticket

    Graham, do you have those "inside track" phone numbers to Yair Shahir or Ziv Argov? That could really help me out here.


    Yeah, it seems simple but actually isn't. Insurance agents usually don't have a clue unless they specialize in business policies. So not much help there. Most folks here are advanced amateurs so usually don't get all tangled up in business coverage.

    Here's a hard earned tip:

    I once had an "all inclusive" rider on my homeowners that covered my gear as line listed items. I asked my agent what all inclusive meant, and they replied anything listed for any possible occurrence of any kind.

    Wrongo.

    At the time I was just shooting a few weddings and my 503CW with a digital back went down a flight of marble steps (long story). Make the claim, adjuster calls, asked what I was doing, shooting a wedding for chump change, sorry no business use covered. So much for all inclusive.

    Conversely, my buddy that owns a big studio goes to Jamaica on vacation, gets mugged for all his Nikon gear, makes claim on his business policy, denied because he wasn't shooting for pay.

    I now have a policy that covers any item up to $6K without a line listing @ $500 deductible. Line listed items over $6K have no deductible, and are paid out via my assessed value. I just update that on their website when I sell something or get something new. Usually once a year is enough.

    I contend that big insurance is how the Mafia went legit. Trace back the holding companies and we'd find Lucky Luciano, Inc.

    - Marc
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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    I once went to a Berkshire Hathaway shareholders meeting. After the ten minutes of official business, Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger answered questions from the audience. A woman asked Buffett if Berkshire carried "key man" insurance to pay if he died. Buffett replied, "We sell insurance; we don't buy insurance."
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Woah, sorry to hear about this. Did you by chance take pictures of the sensor when you were inspecting it prior to sending the back in for service? Do you know for sure if the back was working?

    Reading your post it sure sounds like something happened to this after it left your hands. I mean you'd assume that when it first arrived at service they would have checked the sensor and back operations prior to giving you the first estimate of $1700.

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    EH21: Yes we took pictures of everything, but I was too afraid of ESD damage to the sensor to fire it up. As it was, the decision to remove the filter at all, was not recommended, but I couldn't think of any sensical reason to allow broken glass shards to fall against the sensor and made a quick executive decision to remove the filter. All of this within a few seconds so I think I handled it well but hindsight is always 20/20
    So I have no idea if the unit was working before sending out.
    I also have no reason to believe anyone is trying to deceive me or rip me off in any way. Like I said, I have always been treated well by my vendors and this particular sales rep. He has emailed me, probably read this thread, that he is working on my problem behind the scenes and is trying to get more info from Israel for me to work with.

    I guess one of the things I am asking advice on here is "what would you do?" kind've thing...I am assuming that the back really is busted $15k worth to fix, and if so, should I have it fixed and returned as essentially a new AptusII-12 with 0 actuations and a warranty for $15k? (pretty good deal I think all would agree, right?) or...cut my losses, get the back back and get a used P65 or equivalent and move on...possibly even getting some money for the non-working Aptus or trade value from my vendor?

    These are the questions I am grappling with today, as I go thru the "5 stages of grief" thing I believe I am currently at Stage#3: Bargaining

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    I would probably scrap it. Why? Well ... not sure how capital allowances (CA) for business work in the US, but here (UK) I would figure out what's left to claim of the CA - the more, the better - and go from there. So, thinking aloud here for a moment - if it was bought new for $40k ... and you've claimed $10k in total so far as a CA (over successive tax years here) ... means you have $30k left to claim. Scrapping it means you can claim the entire $30k this FY - in real terms that would have given you about $6k off your tax bill (@20%). Add this to the $15k you can 'save' by not repairing the Aptus, plus whatever you can get by putting the broken Aptus on eBay (you'll be surprised) and you have $21k + eBay sale to play with. I've seen used IQ180s go for this privately, so that might be an idea. CI have a couple of used IQ160s for $22k - or maybe get a used P65 and put the rest towards accident insurance.

    Of course, if there's little left to claim as a CA in the Aptus, this changes things a bit - lowering your overall budget.

    Jim

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    There's a user here (Vieri) who was trying to sell a gold-package Aptus II 12R for ages, and ended up sending it to a dealer (newoldcamera). Looks like it - or one very similar - is still there, listed at $19.7k. Since it's a buyer's market, you may be able to negotiate.

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Good points, Jim, I will have to see what has been depreciated so far. I have been thinking along same lines and considering options. I too, have seen sub-$20K IQ180's and even a sub-$10k P65....soooo...will just have to wait and see what my dealer has to tell me tomorrow and what my bookkeeper says are my tax ramifications. I am very interested in what the "real deal" is on the damages and will press for more info.

    Est. tax rate of 20% may be low, I was thinking more like 35% + local and state liabilities as well...its not pretty, tax wise, here in CA but could work to my advantage. Although my studio is a corp. soooo...it gets complicated

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    One final thing - I don't say scrap it lightly - I'm a big believer in reuse, repair, recycle - we've only got one planet after all. But, $15k for a repair of an electronic device, most of the components of which are plug 'n' play + the odd soldered cable. Seriously? Sure these things cost $40k new because they've got to recoup R&D from a (relatively) small number of people, plus everyone involved in the supply chain has to make a living. Understood. But then, when someone who has spent a king's ransom on one of these gets in trouble - as with you - they've got to cut some slack. A lot of slack infact. Bill for parts only perhaps? Yeah I know we should all have accident insurance but hey, make a $15k claim this year and see what next year's premium will be (if they'll reinsure you...).

    Keep us posted on how you get on - will be interested to see how this pans out.

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Thanks, everyone here, for the great advice and co-misery
    I have spoken to my sales rep (he was working behind the scenes for us) and have also received pics of the scratches on the sensor and more detail of the damage to the firewire assembly.
    My dealer has given me some good options to consider, including just fixing the firewire and IR filter and "live with the scratches" (see attached)
    So am still in Stage#3 of the stages of grief, "Bargaining" phase. I have many options to consider and greatly appreciate everyone here's help and advice. I will keep you updated on what we decide...just for closure sake, eh?

  27. #27
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Yes that looks similar to the mark on my Aptus sensor, although perhaps larger in your case. It was invisible when looking at the sensor but showed up when you shot an LCC or white field with the back. It's a bummer.

    I did wonder when I sent mine in whether it was made worse because they asked me to leave the broken IR glass in place and not remove it before shipping. The glass spalls off the back when it breaks plus the gap is pretty small between it and the sensor.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  28. #28
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    My studio manager has mapped out the damage on the full res raw captures received from Israel.
    Not exactly what you want to see on your gazillion dollar 80MP MFD back, but not entirely unfortunate as these things go, I guess.

    On a side note, its nice to know that you arent supposed to even look at these sensors directly for fear of damage of some kind....but writing directly on them with a grease pencil is A-OK! ??

  29. #29
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Only damaged on the side of the sensor? Looks usable to me. You could even crop away that part and have lots of megapixels left. Applying LCC when needed should help too I guess.

    Looking at the 100% crop the marks look rather narrow too, gathered dust on the sensor in normal shooting is often worse than that.

    I know some backs have the possibility to register damaged pixels in the back itself so the raw processor can compensate for that, with this narrow damage I think it would do a quite decent job, and as it's on the side it's probably not going to be a big problem. I think Phase One backs can do that. Not sure with this Aptus though.

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Update: The repair guys in Israel "refused" to partially repair and return, to let it live out its life with a scratched sensor, so I have taken them up on a very good offer to trade in my broken AptusII-12 and should be getting my brand new Credo-80 (with warranty) in a week or so.
    Been reading up on the Credo (wasn't that the green lizard loan sharjk guy in Star Wars? Han Solo shoots him under the table in the 1st episode)... and we are getting excited about it. One "feature" the Credo does NOT have, is an "easy-to-quick-release" button on the side, which proved "problematic" on the AptusII to say the least.

    R.I.P., AptusII-12...we had good times together, you will be missed
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    I'm pleased you're happy but a little bemused by Leaf's service and repair policy.
    $15K is absolute daylight robbery in my mind.
    However, may you have many years of good service from your new back!

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    Update: The repair guys in Israel "refused" to partially repair and return, to let it live out its life with a scratched sensor, so I have taken them up on a very good offer to trade in my broken AptusII-12 and should be getting my brand new Credo-80 (with warranty) in a week or so.
    Been reading up on the Credo (wasn't that the green lizard loan sharjk guy in Star Wars? Han Solo shoots him under the table in the 1st episode)... and we are getting excited about it. One "feature" the Credo does NOT have, is an "easy-to-quick-release" button on the side, which proved "problematic" on the AptusII to say the least.

    R.I.P., AptusII-12...we had good times together, you will be missed
    Very nice that it worked out in the end. The Credo 80 is an awesome back!

  33. #33
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Congratulations on the inadvertent upgrade to the Credo! That's how I ended up with my P40+ after the Aptus, although I did keep the Aptus and sensor spots

    A good friend of mine absolutely loves his Credo's - much more than the IQ series in fact. The leaf colour rocks IMHO.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  34. #34
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Eric, I think you have made the right decision. If you took the Aptus back without sorting out the sensor issue, you would have to work around it on a daily base (cropping, retouching, whatever...) but the re-sale value of the back would have drop considerably.

    I think you're going to be very happy with the Credo. Looking forward to seeing some new images from it!

    BR

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  35. #35
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Thanks, Yair. Yes, we are excited about the new back and are all watching videos and reading up on it here at the studio to be up to speed upon its arrival. Looks like it will be a great back! We have $1000 invested in many FW800 cables all over the studio (the kind with the right angle end that fit the Aptus) and I am trying to figure out if they will fit the Credo as is, or if we are going to have to pull them all and reverse them setup wise.
    Any thoughts?

    I came to the same conclusion you stated, reluctantly. I was all ready to live with scratches on the Aptus sensor and buy a second "used" system as backup. Would really like 2 systems here, to be honest. Guess I will do that at some point, if all goes well this year, perhaps a Credo 40 or 60. I really believe in redundancy, and most of what we shoot here doesn't require 80MP, but does require the quality and accuracy of MFD (I have spent an additional 60hours in post over the last 3 weeks correcting color and contrast on Canon and Nikon files we have been using since the disaster)

  36. #36
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Have you considered using USB3? I think USB3 offers easier solutions than Firewire, which is on its way out.

    ken

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Yes you can reverse the FW800 cables, the straight end fits nicely into the Credo's FW port!

    Enjoy!
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  38. #38
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Yes, we will probably move to USB3 eventually, but our MacPro towers (6 of them fully loaded) do not have USB3 cards...yet.

    As with most things, its not the materials cost, but the labor cost that is considerable.
    The 30ft FW800 cables ($200/ea) are strung up thru the ceiling and pop down where the cameras and computers are to get them out of the way of stylists and shooters. So reversing them will cost, but I guess it must be done. Sounds like the right angle end won't fit the back but should plug into the computers just fine. At least the new Credo's aren't "powered" by the FW connection

  39. #39
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Or you can reverse the studio JJJJ

    The Credo CAN be powered through FW or by its battery, or power+charge at the same time
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  40. #40
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    HaHaHa...Thanks, Yair...Is that "out of the box" thinking or just good ole' Brit Wit?

    The "not so" Funny thing is that the reason we switched from 27in iMac shooting stations to MacPro Towers and specialized Leaf 30ft FW800 cables was FOR the AptusII-12!! grrrrr

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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    Been reading up on the Credo (wasn't that the green lizard loan sharjk guy in Star Wars? Han Solo shoots him under the table in the 1st episode)
    Close; that was Greedo.

  42. #42
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarnia View Post
    Close; that was Greedo.
    Oh, you are right, Sarnia. Hey, close enough,...40 years...not bad for the old Duder's brain though!

  43. #43
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    I don't understand why you would not have breakage insurance for such an item.
    You can get an Aptus 12 today for $18000.
    So, $15000 is total loss.
    With a good lawyer your insurance would have paid.

    In any case, I've recently moved from Aptus 12 to Credo 80, and it is much nicer (but in my case the insurance paid for it...)

    I think, for a back like this, you must make sure to have both constant warranty and full insurance including breakage and theft/robbery coverage for all the places it will ever be in.

    How much did they charge you for the upgrade?

  44. #44
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I don't understand why you would not have breakage insurance for such an item.
    I am not very bright, shlomi

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    You can get an Aptus 12 today for $18000.
    So, $15000 is total loss.
    With a good lawyer your insurance would have paid.
    Actually, I can get an Aptus 12 or even an IQ180 for less than that. You wouldn't believe the deal I could have had on a P65
    I haven't pursued any legal action against my insurance agent, I don't trust lawyers or the court system for stuff like this....I am pressuring the old fashioned American way...I have threatened to pull all insurance policies (multiple homes, businesses, automobiles, whole and term life, HC for my family and employees...etc) away from him if they don't help me on this. Thats actually a sizable chunk of change so we shall see...
    Like I stated earlier: I really didn't know there were policies for breakage out there. I have built a very successful business over decades self insured for breakage.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    In any case, I've recently moved from Aptus 12 to Credo 80, and it is much nicer (but in my case the insurance paid for it...)
    Good For you!
    Tell me how its going, since thats the same transition I am about to make, I really am interested!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I think, for a back like this, you must make sure to have both constant warranty and full insurance including breakage and theft/robbery coverage for all the places it will ever be in.
    I have, since this happened, researched better insurance that covers breakage and the like and purchased some.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    How much did they charge you for the upgrade?
    Make you a deal: You tell me who insures you and how much you pay and what is covered, and I will tell you

    Suffice to say that it was "an offer I couldn't refuse" and feel well cared for by my dealer.

  45. #45
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    If you want to know about Credo/Aptus then you can email me:
    shlomibe at gmail.com

    My insurer is in Israel, so I don't think it can be useful for you.

  46. #46
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Thanks, Shlomi,
    I was just trying to be funny, I wasn't going to tell you what deal I got. Not gonna do it...wouldnt be prudent
    I'm dumb but not that dumb.
    I may be dumb about insurance....but if you are a major manufacturer and need about 600 sku's of new product shot, color corrected, masked out, and up on your website in a matter of a few days....you may want to hold onto my number. When it comes to doing stuff like that, I'm Einstein
    Last edited by Egor; 16th February 2014 at 20:37.

  47. #47
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    EPILOGUE:
    So its been a week or so since the decision was made to go for the deal on a new Credo-80 system and it arrived yesterday!
    We could not be more happy with this new camera (DF+) and back (Credo-80)
    This thing is sooooo much nicer than our AptusII-12 in almost every concievable way.
    -Primarily it appears to be built better (way better) it especially lacks the easy to release "quick-release" feature from the Mamiya that the AptusII had
    -no connection issues whatsoever (The Aptus made us build an hour or more into each day for "issues" usually related to connection), We shot for 8 hours straight today with it and not one "issue" not once!
    -the touchscreen controls are easy to understand and accessible,
    -Live View is better and the DF+ makes it so we dont have to walk over to the camera and change settings every shot just for the LV. I CAN NOT OVER_EMPHASIZE HOW HUGE THAT IS for tethered shooting and control with stylists. I dont know why more people havent brought that point up about the DF+
    -IQ appears better but that may be just our exuberance (its the same sensor after all)

    In any case, I want to thank my dealer, Lance Schad at Digital Transitions, as well as the Mamiya/Leaf support of Ziv, Francis, and Yair for making this happen for us. Thank you, guys, really!

    We will be putting this rig thru many paces in the weeks to come, macro work of medical instruments, art-repro of huge paintings using it on our P2 and sliding back, dramatic shoe shots and food, food and more food...Am looking forward to it now instead of dreading the usual fight between the tech and the vision thing.

    Yes, my assistant has "requested" a second Credo-40 kit as backup...I told him "I have something in my eye" while pointing to it with middle finger

    At least I have really really really good insurance now
    Peace

    e
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  48. #48
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    IQ is always different between generations, even though they never mention it for some reason.
    Noise and color response are not the same - I've compared directly with Aptus 12.
    Aptus has a problem of sometimes giving incorrect colors for certain hues, this seems to have gone completely. It gave me a lot of problems with some painters which demanded the exact same color which was impossible to get on some blue-greens of Aptus.
    Also it's more light sensitive, meaning the same light and ISO will give a brighter picture.

  49. #49
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    IQ is always different between generations, even though they never mention it for some reason.
    Noise and color response are not the same - I've compared directly with Aptus 12.
    Aptus has a problem of sometimes giving incorrect colors for certain hues, this seems to have gone completely. It gave me a lot of problems with some painters which demanded the exact same color which was impossible to get on some blue-greens of Aptus.
    Also it's more light sensitive, meaning the same light and ISO will give a brighter picture.
    Hi, that's a very interesting point.

    What are your thoughts about the color profiles between the Aptus and the Credo? Do you notice any differences?

  50. #50
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    Re: Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

    Yes, of course there are differences.
    In Aptus, you will get dramatically different results from different profiles.
    In Credo, the results are much closer together, clearly because there are less deviations in color interpretation.

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