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Thread: A down to the line decision

  1. #51
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    no one has mentioned this yet, but it is extremely difficult to see desired focus when tilting by viewing the ground glass on a 4cm x 4 cm image and good luck getting a loupe in there. It ain't 4x5!

    what I have found to work pretty well is a pair of magnifier glasses, with little telescopes for each eye (your dentist uses them). you may still need a dark cloth if outside.

    i might sheepishly mention i still have that Horseman SWC with 35mm Rodenstock for sale, shifts only, but a nice tidy package

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The other *huge* issue with movements on the DB's is the color shift and requirement for the associated LCC white correction frame. However, digital's instant review and processing convenience are compelling.
    Jack, 'scuse my ignorance but does this mean that when I attach a Phase back to the Silvestri with a wide lens, color shifts will be such that I'll need to shoot white corrections all the time?


    thx

    t

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Tim I believe there is no free lunch with any backs doing T/S. You will need a calibration image on every setup
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Tashley

    I started a thread a short while back on LCC’s. Based on the responses I would have to say there’ll two camps on the subject with one camp saying yes and the other no. The yes camp says that you need to shoot a LCC each time. The no camp says that you can develop a library of LCC’s for each lens covering all possible movements.

    Based on what I believe is the expert advice from Doug Peterson I went into the no camp. I currently use a 35 and 72mm lens and did LCC’s at both 10mm and 5mm movements for a total of 25 (each lens). Even though I have this library at my disposal I still understand that there will times I do something outside of what I did and will need an LCC for that event.

    Here are some articles on the subject:

    http://www.phaseone.com/upload/cases...skerod_001.pdf

    http://www.phaseone.com/upload/phaseone_horseman.pdf

    Each LCC you take is registered to the individual back making sharing not possible.

    don
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post
    Tashley

    I started a thread a short while back on LCC’s. Based on the responses I would have to say there’ll two camps on the subject with one camp saying yes and the other no. The yes camp says that you need to shoot a LCC each time. The no camp says that you can develop a library of LCC’s for each lens covering all possible movements.

    Based on what I believe is the expert advice from Doug Peterson I went into the no camp. I currently use a 35 and 72mm lens and did LCC’s at both 10mm and 5mm movements for a total of 25 (each lens). Even though I have this library at my disposal I still understand that there will times I do something outside of what I did and will need an LCC for that event.

    Here are some articles on the subject:

    http://www.phaseone.com/upload/cases...skerod_001.pdf

    http://www.phaseone.com/upload/phaseone_horseman.pdf

    Each LCC you take is registered to the individual back making sharing not possible.

    don
    Lordy lordy. Now this I never had to do with my Wista 4x5!

    So as I understand it, if I want a good range of movements with a digital back I have to choose between

    * The Devil - being a field/tech type cam that offers a wide range of movements with non retrofocus lenses that give ultimate quality but will require all sorts of buggering about with central ND grads and LCC shots and appropriate adjustments in post.
    * The Deep Blue Sea - being the Hassy h3DII39 with the T/S adaptor, where the glass though good will not be as good and where the way it performs in real world situations is yet to be proven. However, big advantage, no buggering about since Phocus will know the details and adjust accordingly.

    I think I have this straight now...

    ???
    Last edited by tashley; 15th January 2009 at 15:57.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    I have been on the sidelines looking for a view camera movement solution to arrive.

    I am grateful for Jack's experience in this area - particularly his comments on movement and steadiness when using the typical LF set up. I am also mindful of Marc's experience with RollieXact system - which is a positive one for studio use.

    After checking out Arca and Linhoff - pretty as they look, I am unconvinced about their ability to be used easilly and without hassle in the field and in studio with digibacks.

    Therefore I am happy to wait and see for rmyself how good the Hasselbald HTS system will be ( or not) - basically a flexbody with lens and digital readout into DAC software corrections - removing a lot of the hassle involved with other solutions.

    This is all big buck stuff we are talking about and patience is an important part of the equation...I must say that I am dismayed at the cost of these solutions. It seems that investment in movement also means investment in a range of lenses.

    If I can get what I need from the HTS - and save on the expense of digi specked view camera use only Scheider or Rodenstocks- that means a lot to me.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Lordy lordy. Now this I never had to do with my Wista 4x5!

    So as I understand it, if I want a good range of movements with a digital back I have to choose between

    * The Devil - being a field/tech type cam that offers a wide range of movements with non retrofocus lenses that give ultimate quality but will require all sorts of buggering about with central ND grads and LCC shots and appropriate adjustments in post.
    * The Deep Blue Sea - being the Hassy h3DII39 with the T/S adaptor, where the glass though good will not be as good and where the way it performs in real world situations is yet to be proven. However, big advantage, no buggering about since Phocus will know the details and adjust accordingly.

    I think I have this straight now...

    ???
    It boils down to choices…

    Choose a (fill in you choice) technical camera with movements and what do you get? Technical cameras offer (dependent on your choice) total or near total choice of movements (tilt, rise, and shifts) add the lens associated to technical cameras and you get superior image quality. You also get a camera that is totally manual with a difficulty level way higher than a DSLR. So introduce trade-offs. The trade off of having a technical camera is that while it’ll be much more difficult to use, once you do you’ll be able to make it sing; think of obtaining images (very large images) where you can literally see the color of a ant’s eye at 50’ (okay an exaggeration).

    I can only speak from my experience. I feel I have the best of both words now as I own both a technical camera as well as a “normal” 645. My main camera for landscape work is now the technical camera while I keep the AFD for what I’d call point and shoot. The technical camera will get a work out during my redwoods trip while I’ll probably use the AFD (along w/300mm) while I do coastal images.

    Bottom line? Think about getting both the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea; in other words why not have both a technical camera and a 645 that will share the same digital back. You get the best of both worlds (knowing that you’ll need separate stable of lens)

    It’s all about choices and image quality. Good luck my friend – there’s just isn’t an easy or simple answer here.

    don
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Jack, 'scuse my ignorance but does this mean that when I attach a Phase back to the Silvestri with a wide lens, color shifts will be such that I'll need to shoot white corrections all the time?


    thx

    t
    Simple answer is maybe

    If you use anything wider than the 35, then you almost assuredly will need to do an LCC for every frame. If you use the 35 and up un-shifted (or non-tilted) then probably not. If you use any lens with associated movements, then yes, you'll likely need an LCC.

    For shifts, (but not tilts) you can build a pre-library of LCC's so to speak for each direction AND amount of movement, but be advised the 5mm or 10mm 'up' generic LCC you made may not be adequate for the 7mm or 8mm UP frame you actually took...

    All this is my way of saying that you'll probably want to get ino the habit of taking an LCC for every shifted or tilted or hyper-wideangle frame you capture and save them as pairs...

    Kinda sucks, doesn't it?
    Jack
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post

    Bottom line? Think about getting both the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea; in other words why not have both a technical camera and a 645 that will share the same digital back. You get the best of both worlds (knowing that you’ll need separate stable of lens)
    Exactly -- unless something like the HTS with available lenses will suffice for the movement side of the equation.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Agreed, but the magnification also serves to INCREASE the *effective* focal length -- including DoF, aperture change, and all -- no getting around that, so you do not have the use of a lens that behaves as a 40mm any more. In the above example, your 40mm f4 lens is now effectively a 56mm f5.6
    Yes, based on a 6x6 format (80mm IC), the 40mm lens becomes an effective 56mm lens with the PC-Mutar, but it is also true that it still has a 40mm effective focal length with a 113mm IC, with a lot more ability to shift.

    However, even without the PC-Mutar as I mentioned before, with a MFDB I am able to get a decent amount of shift as a straight 40mm lens due to its larger 6x6 image circle, more shift than possible with the Rodenstock 35HR, for example.

    The Hassy 40IF may not be as wide as the Rodenstock 35HR, but then you will have much less shifting ability with that Rodenstock lens. Unfortunately, you can not have it both ways. The wider the lens you want at the sensor size, the less shifting ability you will have.

    I built this camera for digital product photography, and in that capacity it succeeds extremely well for me. I find it much easier to work with than a view camera. It is not intended for interior architecture work, where you may indeed need something like a 24mm lens.

  11. #61
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Exactly -- unless something like the HTS with available lenses will suffice for the movement side of the equation.
    *******
    This discussion is very informative...It will be interesting to see if the combined electro-mechanical-software HTS approach will be better/worse/or the same as the current situation.

    Steve

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Tim, I curious about your "need" for movements. Could you quantify it? As far as I understand, you have gotten on without so far.

    If your need is closer to desire than to hardship (!), then there are some half-solutions which might last you for a while, such as looking for a good copy of the Hartblei (not the Phase). It depends on how much shift you need though. There is a decent amount of tilt, but not so much shift.

    Or, you might shoot film and scan... It worked for everyone for a long time, and the more time you need to invest in LCCs and so on, the less the time penalty for film. It depends a bit on your expected volume, I suppose.

    It just sounds a bit like you are looking for a solution which does not exist (and which everyone else is looking for too). Something small, easy, and part of a single system, yet with large movements and no quality penalties. The HTS comes closest, I suppose. Although there must be quality compromises with it, no one has gone on the record yet saying that they can see them. The wide angles remain the primary compromise there.
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Very interesting thread.
    I ask myself which movements would one use how often (and of course this will differ from person to person) and for what purpose.
    I think the interesting thing in solutions like the cambo RS or horseman that you could use it with some movements, but you could also use it handheld. I could see myself putting a nice viewfinder on it and use it like a digital Hassy SWD.
    If it was just about rise and fall, and if you are not at the limit with Megapixel I also have the thought that one could choose a lens one step wider and get the rise/fall effect by cropping the image afterwards. So one would have the choice to either use the full image circle of a lets say 24mm lens, or crop it to 35mm FOV and get rise/fall effect if wanted.(However I assume that rise/fall is not the most important movement for most of you?)

    Now if one needs all the movements I understand it is very important to really see what you do - and in this case I would say the new Sinar Artech does sound pretty appealing.

    Am I the only one who thinks that it is a big benefit if you use a technical camera which could be used handheld as well? (with technical camera I include cambo,alpa, horseman etc. - I hope this is correct wording)

    Cheers, Tom

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Tim, I curious about your "need" for movements. Could you quantify it? As far as I understand, you have gotten on without so far.

    If your need is closer to desire than to hardship (!), then there are some half-solutions which might last you for a while, such as looking for a good copy of the Hartblei (not the Phase). It depends on how much shift you need though. There is a decent amount of tilt, but not so much shift.

    Or, you might shoot film and scan... It worked for everyone for a long time, and the more time you need to invest in LCCs and so on, the less the time penalty for film. It depends a bit on your expected volume, I suppose.

    It just sounds a bit like you are looking for a solution which does not exist (and which everyone else is looking for too). Something small, easy, and part of a single system, yet with large movements and no quality penalties. The HTS comes closest, I suppose. Although there must be quality compromises with it, no one has gone on the record yet saying that they can see them. The wide angles remain the primary compromise there.
    Good questions Carsten.

    I know you're familiar with some of my history of gear and with some of my work.

    My current dilemma has the following history: I have been shifting more towards a strange mixture of what I call 'architectural landscape' which is largely about the relationship between landscapes and the structures that humans put in them. This also involves exploring themes of the passage of time and decay.

    With the Lyonesse series finished (and half way through a very successful limited edition print auction on behalf of the charity Photovoice) I am moving on to a series exploring man's territoriality: the way he claims, marks off, monitors and defends his land and the structures on it.

    So what all this requires me to do is take pictures of

    a) landscapes with man made structures in them
    b) much closer up situations such as interiors

    Additionally what I want is for all this to be in absolute crisp focus from near to far and corner to corner. I want total 'dead pan' with no suggestion that a camera was involved. No selective DOF, no blur, nothing.

    My M8 is almost perfect for much of this. No need for shift, since with the right glass and aperture the DOF suffices very well and the files blow up to large exhibition sizes very well. But I found myself wanting sometimes to correct verticals and sometimes wanting to crop or enlarge beyond 24 x 36 so I bought a film based field camera and used that for a while. However, lugging it around on trips, along with all my other gear, and in particular trying to get really good quality development and scanning proved to be a real hassle. I often need, if I've driven a long way to shoot a scene, to be able to confirm I have the shot as I want it before I leave and 4x5 film makes this impossible.

    So I moved to digital on the understanding that I could get the movements I want soon enough with either the Hartblei (Reichmann had reviewed it and said that on screen it was as sharp as his Zeiss glass) or the Hassy T/S.

    Now I did totally understand that the ultimate quality of the edges was not going to be as absolutely perfect as with a field cam and non-retrofocus lens setup but I did think it would be very good and that by stopping down there'd be a sweet spot that met my needs. Otherwise why would professionals buy the stuff, hey? ;-)

    Then I find that the Hartblei not only makes the shots look like they were taken through a coke bottle, at any aperture, but that the alternatives with the Phase back require almost as much (and in some ways, e.g. LCC frames more) hassle as the film setup.

    So, I need to shoot scenes which in 35mm FOV terms vary usually between 20mm and 50mm. They need to have perfect perceived focus from let's say five or ten feet away to infinity when printed to very large dimensions (let's say 1 metre wide) and I need to be able to correct verticals both internal and external.

    I do understand that this will take time, patience serious money but it is slowly becoming clear that there actually isn't a solution (unless the Hassy TS turns out really well or Hartblei come up with a very good batch of rotators!)at any price that avoids the need for a serious amount of buggering about! More importantly, buy the time you've packed all this stuff for a trip you certainly need at least two largish bags just for the camera gear. Maybe I should sell my toothbrush and clean underpants!

    List for camera bag for average trip:

    Tripod
    M8 and three lenses
    Phamiya body
    One or two Phamiya lenses
    Silvestri Body
    L bracket for Silvestri on tripod
    At least one lens for Silvestri
    Centre graduated ND filters
    Black cloth
    Loupe
    Meter
    Wi-Bal card
    Opaque sheet for LCC shots and iPod voice recorder attachment for noting the LCC shots
    Releases, wake-up cable,
    Sensor cleaning gear
    Laptop
    Chargers, cables cards
    Osteopath
    ...
    Last edited by tashley; 16th January 2009 at 02:37.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    doesn't sound to me like swings/tilt is what you want. that will not change the range of DOF, only move the planes of focus, and it is definitely a lenslike effect.

    i have tried Helicon Focus and urge you to try it out. Woody Campbell has shown a few images that sold me. you simply click off a series ( i've used five or six) of focus bracket shots and process in computer and it is fast. if nothing has moved in the image, it is very difficult to perceive the blends

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    doesn't sound to me like swings/tilt is what you want. that will not change the range of DOF, only move the planes of focus, and it is definitely a lenslike effect.

    i have tried Helicon Focus and urge you to try it out. Woody Campbell has shown a few images that sold me. you simply click off a series ( i've used five or six) of focus bracket shots and process in computer and it is fast. if nothing has moved in the image, it is very difficult to perceive the blends

    Yup I've considered this but things do move: I often take shots with water in and in Britain at least, it's nearly always windy to some degree so trees and grasses are moving. I think focus blending is fine for studio packshots and mountains but it probably won't suite me. Whereas a couple of degrees of tilt is what landscape chaps use to increase the perceived DOF and I have seen it done (even done it myself) such that it doesn't look 'lenslike'!

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Linhof have a new Technica designed specifically for digi backs - giving you very portable fold out camera on rails ( all Carbon I believe) with what may be enough of every movement to satisfy...

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    The Sinar arTec is really perfect, compact and T/S. It is just very pricy.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Yes, based on a 6x6 format (80mm IC), the 40mm lens becomes an effective 56mm lens with the PC-Mutar, but it is also true that it still has a 40mm effective focal length with a 113mm IC, with a lot more ability to shift.
    But it's then still a 56, just on a larger format -- and yes, 56 on a larger format may have the same *effective* focal length as the 40 on your 6x6, but you don't gain a thing except a longer lens with more IC to shift to. More to the point, since you *have* to shift it to get the larger sensor area to get back to 40mm FoV, you do NOT 'gain' the 40mm FoV effect with more shiftable IC... Instead you simply ended up with a longer lens that has a correspondingly larger IC and therefore allows shifts.

    Like most things in photography, there's no free lunch!

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    But it's then still a 56, just on a larger format -- and yes, 56 on a larger format may have the same *effective* focal length as the 40 on your 6x6, but you don't gain a thing except a longer lens with more IC to shift to. More to the point, since you *have* to shift it to get the larger sensor area to get back to 40mm FoV, you do NOT 'gain' the 40mm FoV effect with more shiftable IC... Instead you simply ended up with a longer lens that has a correspondingly larger IC and therefore allows shifts.
    True enough. In fact, the two are so closely related that all you got in the end was more work and more resolution.
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Yep. And you only gain resolution if the lens plus Mutar combo can still resolve higher frequency than the pixel pitch. (And as good as the Mutar is, it is *not* a foregone conclusion that combo will out-resolve a 6.8u sensor. In fact, I'd be willing to bet the 40 by itself cannot outresolve a 6.8u sensor outside the central 2/3rds of the IC...)

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Myself I just can lose a 28mm focal length and stitching is not always a option and honestly for me it is a last resort. T/S is something for the studio doing product work and if that is the case and did it on a regular basis i would just go for a 2x3 view camera. In this case i maybe looking more at focus blending as the option for the greater DOF with a T/S is not really there and the loss of really wide angles does not appeal to me. Now this is my case and what i shoot but after this pre-dawn morning and the use of the Mamiya 28mm for the last couple months i am seriously addicted to it and not sure I could live without it and I get plenty of DOF.

    BTW not sure how I ever got away without a 1200 Elinchrom Ranger before. If I had it my way i would have 3 more
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    But it's then still a 56, just on a larger format -- and yes, 56 on a larger format may have the same *effective* focal length as the 40 on your 6x6, but you don't gain a thing except a longer lens with more IC to shift to. More to the point, since you *have* to shift it to get the larger sensor area to get back to 40mm FoV, you do NOT 'gain' the 40mm FoV effect with more shiftable IC... Instead you simply ended up with a longer lens that has a correspondingly larger IC and therefore allows shifts.

    Like most things in photography, there's no free lunch!

    Cheers,
    Yes, of course. If you do not wish to stitch, then you do not get the 40mm FoV. In that case, with the PC-Mutar, the 40IF becomes similar to a large format lens (like the Schneider 58 SA-XL) or to the Rollei 55mm PCS Tilt/Shift lens (but with more movements in my case).

    Again, even without the PC-Mutar, I am getting +/- 16mm of shift with the 40mm FoV, which is about what you would get from a 35mm digitar.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post

    Again, even without the PC-Mutar, I am getting +/- 16mm of shift with the 40mm FoV, which is about what you would get from a 35mm digitar.
    David:

    That is still obviously excellent Is the 16mm figure for a 1.1 crop DB or a 1.3 DB? Also, any chance you could post a 100% pixel crop of the corner frame at full 16mm shift?

    Thanks!
    Jack
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Yep. And you only gain resolution if the lens plus Mutar combo can still resolve higher frequency than the pixel pitch. (And as good as the Mutar is, it is *not* a foregone conclusion that combo will out-resolve a 6.8u sensor. In fact, I'd be willing to bet the 40 by itself cannot outresolve a 6.8u sensor outside the central 2/3rds of the IC...)

    Cheers,
    I think you are in for a very pleasant surprise. The older 40mm lens from Hasselblad does not have the needed resolution at the edges .... but the newer 40IF does! I believe Kornelius at Zeiss measured over 100 lp/mm at the edges (and over 200 lp/mm in the center).

    Also, the PC-Mutar is a rather different beast. It is not like telephoto converters where the lens elements are fixed in that case. The PC-Mutar has a movable lens element that sweeps across the shifting area, which more effectively magnifies the lens without degradation.

    All I can say is that even with the PC-Mutar, this thing is razor sharp from corner to corner with the 40IF. I am not the only one here who has this equipment, so maybe you can get independent assessment from Marc.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    David:

    That is still obviously excellent Is the 16mm figure for a 1.1 crop DB or a 1.3 DB? Also, any chance you could post a 100% pixel crop of the corner frame at full 16mm shift?

    Thanks!
    It is for a 1.1 crop (36 x 48).

    I will try to get something over the weekend to show corners at full shift.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    David:

    Indeed, it sounds quite promising!
    Jack
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    I wanted to adapt one of these to the Mamiya body at one point. It does look interesting but I don't think i can adapt a mamyia lens to a Hassy mount. The other way around yes but not sure how i could accomplish this. Make for a nice shift lens if I could
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Myself I just can lose a 28mm focal length and stitching is not always a option and honestly for me it is a last resort. T/S is something for the studio doing product work and if that is the case and did it on a regular basis i would just go for a 2x3 view camera. In this case i maybe looking more at focus blending as the option for the greater DOF with a T/S is not really there and the loss of really wide angles does not appeal to me. Now this is my case and what i shoot but after this pre-dawn morning and the use of the Mamiya 28mm for the last couple months i am seriously addicted to it and not sure I could live without it and I get plenty of DOF.

    BTW not sure how I ever got away without a 1200 Elinchrom Ranger before. If I had it my way i would have 3 more
    That's really nice subtle light Guy, very clean and even but lying on the subject enough to give nice depth and detail. Did you mildly HDR it, or use fill of some kind?

    Tim

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    No but I do have a darker sky and was thinking of a HDR. I did use color picker and worked it a little
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The Sinar arTec is really perfect, compact and T/S. It is just very pricy.
    At about $9,000 plus sales tax it sure is pricey and doesn't seem to meet my fairly average needs more than the Silvestri at about $1,500.

    However it is beautiful and very wantable. Good job it's only in Sinar Hy6, Leaf AFi interface, and Hasselblad V fit...

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Am I the only one who thinks that it is a big benefit if you use a technical camera which could be used handheld as well? (with technical camera I include cambo,alpa, horseman etc. - I hope this is correct wording)

    Cheers, Tom
    Tom

    Just noticed you never got an answer to this.

    Yes it’s doable at least with the Cambo. Michael Reichmann used his handheld while he was in a zodiac last time (prior to this trip) Antarctica. I tried to do the same with my RS 1000 and found it doable provided you have the proper shutter release like Kapture Group; being the cheap bastard I am I’m using the excellent Capture Integration setup which cost several hundred dollars less. It worked for me but I felt I needed an extra hand while handholding.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The other *huge* issue with movements on the DB's is the color shift and requirement for the associated LCC white correction frame.
    Jack, do the Betterlight backs have the same problems with colour shift, are they any better/worse than MFDBs?

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    I thought people might find this comparison useful: it shows the difference in quality at the edge of the frame between a Hassy 35mm retrofocus lens and a Schneider on a tech camera. Significant but not as great as I would have expected...

    http://www.phaseone.com/upload/wide_...oduct_info.pdf

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by shakeshuck View Post
    Jack, do the Betterlight backs have the same problems with colour shift, are they any better/worse than MFDBs?
    Nope, the Bettelight is not cursed with this anomaly as there is nothing over the scanning sensor array itself -- it is protected by being stored inside the metal back when not scanning -- though you do need to therefore place an IR cut filter over the lens.
    Jack
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I thought people might find this comparison useful: it shows the difference in quality at the edge of the frame between a Hassy 35mm retrofocus lens and a Schneider on a tech camera. Significant but not as great as I would have expected...

    http://www.phaseone.com/upload/wide_...oduct_info.pdf
    The HC35mm is a good lens.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/

    At the bottom of that link we have a comparison of that lens to the Rodenstock 35mm. With no shift the differences in chromatic aberration and sharpness at the frame-edges is easily visible. Whether it's "huge" or "minor" I guess depends on what your standards of measure are. Download the samples and judge for yourself.

    However, keep in mind the primary reason you buy a tech camera is to allow distortion-free perspective-corrected rise. So the ability to start with a 35mm perspective and rise 10mm is huge (or the 28mm and rise a bit). The more relevant comparison then would be a tech camera with a 28mm, 35mm, or 47mm lens with rise compared to an HC28mm with an HTS1.5 (equivalent of a 44mm) with rise (meaning you're pushing through the worst part of the glass. We'll have to wait until the HTS is shipping, but I don't there is anyone here who would be optimistic for the 28mm in that comparison.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The HC35mm is a good lens.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/

    At the bottom of that link we have a comparison of that lens to the Rodenstock 35mm. With no shift the differences in chromatic aberration and sharpness at the frame-edges is easily visible. Whether it's "huge" or "minor" I guess depends on what your standards of measure are. Download the samples and judge for yourself.

    However, keep in mind the primary reason you buy a tech camera is to allow distortion-free perspective-corrected rise. So the ability to start with a 35mm perspective and rise 10mm is huge (or the 28mm and rise a bit). The more relevant comparison then would be a tech camera with a 28mm, 35mm, or 47mm lens with rise compared to an HC28mm with an HTS1.5 (equivalent of a 44mm) with rise (meaning you're pushing through the worst part of the glass. We'll have to wait until the HTS is shipping, but I don't there is anyone here who would be optimistic for the 28mm in that comparison.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

    Doug, that is incredibly useful and I should certainly have checked your site: it usually has the most useful comparisons and tests!

    For me (and due to glitchy broadband this evening it took me forever to download so I only looked at the F11 shots) the unshifted shots were moderately different in favour of the Cambo setup on the left and more evident on the right, but that latter could be the result of a number of factors. In any event it was clear that the cambo was better on the edges though the centre was harder to judge. The MF lens may or may not show better centre resolution but it seems to have slightly more acuity though again that could be down to a number of factors. What is clear is that the shifted shot was really really good and I agree that I would place no bets on the Hassy t/s setup getting very close.

    Close enough though? Hmm... I am still irritatingly caught between the slightly lazy option of going for the Hassy because it's far less hassle and keeping fingers crossed that it gets 'close enough' - or holding out for the best by going with a Silvestri and Schneider setup.

    Having said all that, I look again in detail at the Superhero poster on the right and it looks like a higher res camera altogether in the Cambo shot.

    Damn!

    But thanks, really, thank you very much indeed. I think this might be my answer.

    One question: I was going to get the Silvestri Flexi because it has all movements and is light. The Cambo is kind of large and heavier and only has shift, so the Horseman seems better (smaller, lighter) but also is only shift. For landscape use with wides, I figure I can give up tilt due to the DOF of a 28 or 35 on a Horseman but for interiors, wouldn't tilt help avoid stopping down into the diffraction zone?

    One more: would you use the grad centre ND's or do it in post? And do you shoot LCC for every shot or just use a standard library?

    Best

    Tim
    Best

    Tim

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    One question: I was going to get the Silvestri Flexi because it has all movements and is light. The Cambo is kind of large and heavier and only has shift, so the Horseman seems better (smaller, lighter) but also is only shift. For landscape use with wides, I figure I can give up tilt due to the DOF of a 28 or 35 on a Horseman but for interiors, wouldn't tilt help avoid stopping down into the diffraction zone?

    One more: would you use the grad centre ND's or do it in post? And do you shoot LCC for every shot or just use a standard library?

    Best

    Tim
    Best

    Tim
    Tim,
    what about the Cambor Wide RS, I wouldnt expect it to be large and heavy.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Tim,
    what about the Cambor Wide RS, I wouldnt expect it to be large and heavy.
    Phase have details of both on their site and there are reviews of both on Luminous Landscape. The Cambo is quite a bit bigger and heavier...

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The HC35mm is a good lens.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/

    At the bottom of that link we have a comparison of that lens to the Rodenstock 35mm. With no shift the differences in chromatic aberration and sharpness at the frame-edges is easily visible. Whether it's "huge" or "minor" I guess depends on what your standards of measure are. Download the samples and judge for yourself.

    However, keep in mind the primary reason you buy a tech camera is to allow distortion-free perspective-corrected rise. So the ability to start with a 35mm perspective and rise 10mm is huge (or the 28mm and rise a bit). The more relevant comparison then would be a tech camera with a 28mm, 35mm, or 47mm lens with rise compared to an HC28mm with an HTS1.5 (equivalent of a 44mm) with rise (meaning you're pushing through the worst part of the glass. We'll have to wait until the HTS is shipping, but I don't there is anyone here who would be optimistic for the 28mm in that comparison.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
    Doug,

    You are making a lot of assumptions on the HTS + 28mm combo without actually using a production unit. This is unfair and likely to sway people's decision either way.

    I would say to any user to test it in their use / situation and make their own assumptions.

    The HCD28 is an excellent lens with corner to corner sharpness and a solid startpoint for the HTS.

    I would agree that a specific Rodenstock / Schneider lens will perform better on an Alpa-esque camera but for somebody like Tim he wishes to balance this with useability in the field.

    Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare to gain that extra 10% in quality if it is that at all.

    The H3D + HTS is a powerful one-kit combination which could be very useful to any photographer. The tests we made with the 28 with very early HTS units without full corrections and full optimisation already performed extremely well.

    With the 'polished' lens elements (pun intended) I expect a really really useful photographic tool.

    HTS units we have leant to photographers have wondered how they ever survived without it.

    Best,


    David

    EDIT - Another thing to mention is not having to do an LCC shot with the HTS. So far we have not seen this as necessary.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Phase have details of both on their site and there are reviews of both on Luminous Landscape. The Cambo is quite a bit bigger and heavier...
    The review and phase infois about the Cambo WIDE DS, the newer Cambo RS ( WRS-1000) is quite a bit smaller and lighter.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Doug,

    You are making a lot of assumptions on the HTS + 28mm combo without actually using a production unit. This is unfair and likely to sway people's decision either way.

    I would say to any user to test it in their use / situation and make their own assumptions.

    The HCD28 is an excellent lens with corner to corner sharpness and a solid startpoint for the HTS.

    I would agree that a specific Rodenstock / Schneider lens will perform better on an Alpa-esque camera but for somebody like Tim he wishes to balance this with useability in the field.

    Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare to gain that extra 10% in quality if it is that at all.

    The H3D + HTS is a powerful one-kit combination which could be very useful to any photographer. The tests we made with the 28 with very early HTS units without full corrections and full optimisation already performed extremely well.

    With the 'polished' lens elements (pun intended) I expect a really really useful photographic tool.

    HTS units we have leant to photographers have wondered how they ever survived without it.

    Best,


    David

    EDIT - Another thing to mention is not having to do an LCC shot with the HTS. So far we have not seen this as necessary.
    David, you have a PM...

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    The review and phase infois about the Cambo WIDE DS, the newer Cambo RS ( WRS-1000) is quite a bit smaller and lighter.
    Hmm, it still weighs in at 33% more than the Horseman but it does look tasty...

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    The WRS-1000 is very small Tim. I will have one in Moab next week and shoot it along side something that you can recognize for size purposes.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The WRS-1000 is very small Tim. I will have one in Moab next week and shoot it along side something that you can recognize for size purposes.
    Thank you Guy - that'd very interesting! So you have one? What do you think?

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Doug,

    You are making a lot of assumptions on the HTS + 28mm combo without actually using a production unit. This is unfair and likely to sway people's decision either way.

    I would say to any user to test it in their use / situation and make their own assumptions.

    The HCD28 is an excellent lens with corner to corner sharpness and a solid startpoint for the HTS.

    I would agree that a specific Rodenstock / Schneider lens will perform better on an Alpa-esque camera but for somebody like Tim he wishes to balance this with useability in the field.

    Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare to gain that extra 10% in quality if it is that at all.
    I think it should be clear to the board that I greatly respect David, and give Hasselblad credit where credit is due. The HTS is a really great idea and I think it will provide many photographers a very useful and high quality tool. The HTS is still a work-in-progress so none of us know how good it will be, though it seems likely Hasselblad will impress with a well made system.

    However, I will eat my hat* if the HC28mm on the HTS when shot with shift or tilt can stand next to a Schneider/Rodenstock 47mm on final image quality.

    Furthermore, 47mm (which is the widest the HTS system goes) is not all that wide, so the availability of 35mm, 28mm, 24mm, 23mm lenses is a not-so-minor difference between the platforms. Throw in the ability to shift the 23mm, 28mm, and 35mm and the wide-angle options clearly favor the tech body.

    I'll be the first to caution that none of these solutions are that different at small print sizes. Even a double-truck in a magazine is unlikely to be night-and-day. However, interior and landscape shooters who are choosing a P1 or Hassy are not going for "good enough" they are going for the best. In this case there can be zero doubt that the best solution is large format glass on a tech body and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare.
    There is just as little doubt that the HTS or P1 45TS are more convenient and faster than a tech camera. You simply cannot have both the most convenient and the highest quality solutions. Let's look at these limitations though:
    Viewfinder: Tech cameras require a rangefinder. You can confirm exact composition on the LCD immediately after capture.
    In-Camera Metering: You have to use a light meter. You can confirm exposure via histogram on the LCD immediatly after capture.
    Lens Corrections: You take an LCC at the time of capture. Not convenient, but really quite easy. Sharpness fall-off, light fall-off, and pincushion/barrel distortion are not corrected because the lens is pristine to start off with.
    Single Source of Battery: All modern Phase One backs work on a tech camera with the same one battery that they use on any body. The requirement of a separate module for power/storage when on a tech camera is a limitation of the Hasselblad H backs.

    So David is right, if you are unable or unwilling to adapt to the slower workflow then a tech body is not for you. However, it IS higher quality and it is light years faster than a 4x5, so pick your poison.

    *I received a really great Fedora from my girlfriend for Christmas.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    One question: I was going to get the Silvestri Flexi because it has all movements and is light. The Cambo is kind of large and heavier and only has shift, so the Horseman seems better (smaller, lighter) but also is only shift. For landscape use with wides, I figure I can give up tilt due to the DOF of a 28 or 35 on a Horseman but for interiors, wouldn't tilt help avoid stopping down into the diffraction zone?

    One more: would you use the grad centre ND's or do it in post? And do you shoot LCC for every shot or just use a standard library?

    Best

    Tim
    Best

    Tim
    I shoot an LCC on every shot, but either method works.

    I recommend the Centre ND for the 24mm. On the 35mm it is less important, but still a good idea. I have less experience on the 28mm and 23mm.

    As for tilt I think you'll find you need it less often than you think, even for interiors. Here some points that will help you decide if you need it.
    1) Tilt only helps apparent DOF if there is nothing in the foreground toward the top of the frame. So chandeliers, paintings on near walls, kitchen cabinets etc all exclude tilt.
    2) On the 35mm and 24mm we've found f/11 and f/8 to be not meaningfully different. F/16 is diffracted and some micro detail is lost, but it is still darn good. Only at f/22 does the sharpness really fall off.
    3) At the really wide angles f/11-f/16 covers a lot of ground. On the 35mm at f/11.5 you'll have critical focus from around 2 meters to infinity, and acceptable focus a bit closer than that (depending on your personal definition of 'acceptable').
    4) The fall-off in sharpness and out-of-focus areas (Bokeh) is very pleasant.
    5) Remember that f-stops are like focal lengths; they mean different things on different formats. So f/16 on a MFDB has the same DOF as f/45 on a 4x5 view camera (calculator).
    5) Interiors are a great situation for DOF-stacking (built into CS4) in which you can attain limitless DOF without losing any sharpness to diffraction.

    So in short: you won't miss tilt as often as you think, and on the occasion that you do DOF-stacking is a good substitute.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Let me add my experiences as they pertain to a Cambo RS 1000 and Phase One P45+ back:

    Viewfinder: Haven't bought one yet and so far haven't needed one. I've never lost a shot (picture me knocking on wood) then again my "vast" experience to date has been shooting the Grand Canyon - check back with me after I finish shooting the Redwoods next week. I do confirm composition on the LCD.

    In-Camera Metering: While I have a light meter I rely on the histogram more than anything else.

    Lens Corrections: I've got a library of LCC's that I put together with my more common shifts however I'll still shoot the occasion LCC to be on the safe side. Remember it's always better to have and not need than to need and not have.

    Single Source of Battery: The only power consumption is the back thus there's only one battery (okay 2 as I always carry an extra in my pocket).

    Shooting a technical camera forces you into a totally different time zone. The capture workflow is much slower which is not necessarily a bad thing. It has taken me several minutes from the time I set the tripod down, put the camera on it, leveled everything, taken the lens cap off, checked distance, checked focal length on the lens, turn the back on, cock the shutter, and finally take the first image. During this time I'm composing the image sometimes finding the reason I stopped wasn't as good the area next to it which I may not have seen if I had my eyes glues to a viewfinder. I'm slowing training my eyes to become my viewfinder!

    Personally I enjoy the slower pace of shooting with a technical camera as I "feel" closer to the image; my only regret is that I hadn't made the switch sooner.

    I'm currently shooting with either a 35 or 72mm lens.

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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Doug,

    You are making a lot of assumptions on the HTS + 28mm combo without actually using a production unit. This is unfair and likely to sway people's decision either way.

    I would say to any user to test it in their use / situation and make their own assumptions.

    The HCD28 is an excellent lens with corner to corner sharpness and a solid startpoint for the HTS.

    I would agree that a specific Rodenstock / Schneider lens will perform better on an Alpa-esque camera but for somebody like Tim he wishes to balance this with useability in the field.

    Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare to gain that extra 10% in quality if it is that at all.

    The H3D + HTS is a powerful one-kit combination which could be very useful to any photographer. The tests we made with the 28 with very early HTS units without full corrections and full optimisation already performed extremely well.

    With the 'polished' lens elements (pun intended) I expect a really really useful photographic tool.

    HTS units we have leant to photographers have wondered how they ever survived without it.

    Best,


    David

    EDIT - Another thing to mention is not having to do an LCC shot with the HTS. So far we have not seen this as necessary.
    You have a PM from me, too.
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  50. #100
    Member Clawery's Avatar
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    Re: A down to the line decision

    Here is a link that Jeffrey T. had posted showing the differences between the Cambo RS and WDS.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...light=Cambo+RS

    The Cambo RS is 1.2 kg (2.6 lbs) and measures 155mm(6.1") x 165mm(6.5")
    (without lens).

    The Cambo WDS is 1.4kg (3.2 lbs) and measures 170mm(6.9") x 183mm(7.3") (without lens).

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