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A down to the line decision

H

Howard Cubell

Guest
Good evening everyone!

As some people might know I've not had a happy ride with my Phase One gear and after several rocky road episodes that I won't re-hash here, my dealer has sensibly offered me a refund (I asked for either that or a swap with cash adjustment for a Hassy HD39 plus 28mm + TS adaptor) on the basis that the hassy TS adaptor is still a horizon rather than an event.

Firstly let me make my needs clear: I mostly 'do' fine art work with a landscsape or 'architectural landscape' bent. Anyone with the time or inclination can see specific examples at

http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p203936640

What I need is:

* The ability to do tilt AND shift
(hopefully for long night exposures sometimes too)
* Lots of large pixels for large prints with fantastic quality
* A setup which is as light as possible given the aim of the exercise. In other words hopefully avoiding carrying a digibody alongside a tech/field body.
* A setup which avoids, if at all possible, dark cloths, sliding adaptors, upside down composition using loupes on ground glass, central graduated ND filters etc.


It seems to me that Phase have been quoted here as agreeing that their new TS lens, on which most of my hopes were pinned, is kinda blurry at the edges. Now this is a huge shame because the images from my P45+ back are amazing. And it does incredible night shots. Really amazing. But it's the glass that's troublesome.

So should I wait for the Hassy TS, buy an HDII 39 or 50 now and then strap on the adaptor? Or should I stick with the Phase for its night ability and bear the (back) pain of adding a Silvestri Flexicam and putting up with the general grief of the extra body, weight and fiddle?

I want to make images printed to the largest exhibition sizes in fantastic detail with corrected verticals and enhanced DOF. I'll lug light-meters and tripods and so on uphill and dale if I have to, but what do people think of the potential difference in quality of let's say a 60" x 45" print taken on a hassy with their 28mm F4 and the T/S adaptor, versus the Sivlestri/Phase combo, in a sort of 'I'm willing to trade of a little bit of ultimate image quality at the furthest margins in exchange for a lot more convenience, but only a little for a lot' kind of a way...

Tim

ps my dealer suggested Horseman or Cambo with the Phase - but they're all tilt and no shift! And I do realise that few people have seen the Hassy TS results in action in the field rather than a studio...
Tom:
Based upon your needs and lack of comfort with the logistics and workflow of working with a technical camera in the field as a second camera to your "main" camera, the preferred solution seems clear. The Hasselblad H3D with the HTS. However, that presupposes that the image quality with the HTS is first rate and it is not a dog like the Phase T/S lens appears to be. The initial reports are "promising" from those that have played with it, but until it ships and you have your own opportunity to try it out in the field with your type of work, who knows? So, take the cash refund on your system and wait and see whether the HTS delivers. Of course, if the technical camera option is just not a desirable option for you(as it is not for me), then the proper comparison is not between the HTS and a technical camera but between the Hasselblad with the HTS and the Phamiya with no tilt/shift capability to extend depth of field. Put differently, even if the use of the HTS entails "some" loss of performance in the HC lenses at the same lens aperture, are you still better off because of the extended depth of field it offers(and perhaps the ability to use a larger aperture)?
 

carstenw

Active member
Tim, as for the options you listed, how far does your budget stretch? The Cambo is offered with a Hasselblad back mount (SLW-89), so in theory, you could have both systems, side-by-side, and simply move the back to the camera you need it on. This would allow you to use each camera in its area of strength. The savings on the HTS would go far towards the Cambo, and hopefully you could find a way of traveling with both. The HTS is about the same size as the Cambo WRS 1000, without lens, and the Cambo is only 500g heavier. With the Cambo, however, you will be able to go much wider with no performance penalty. No tilt though.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I’ve been following this thread for sometime now and decided to add my 2 cents worth. As many of you know I shoot landscape with the occasional wildlife thrown in; with many of my landscape images panoramas in the 30x60 range.

I have been hesitant in adding my thoughts here as I like many others bring a certain amount of bias whenever we discuss the “ultimate” kit to capture our images, but what the heck; I thought I’d plunge in anyway.

I had a Canon T/S when I was shooting landscape with my 1Ds and found that for whatever the reason I just didn’t use it that much, the reason could have been my style or more simply put what I was looking to accomplish. Shortly after switching to MF I brought a Hartblei to use and found I used it a total of one trip (Sequoia National Park) selling it as I was making my switch to the Cambo RS.

Another reason I’ve stayed off this thread is that I simply do not shoot architectural type photography. I won’t stand here and say I’ve never had a need for tilt as I have; the times I’ve needed it or just could of used it have been rare and in each case software fixes have saved me.

I wanted to include the above information to provide what might be considered my bona fides.

If I were to make the next move into a system that will provide all the movements that the RS has and add the ability to tilt/shift (and here’s where my bias is showing) I’d go directly to the Cambo Ultima 23. Yes, the 23 is a tank (weighs in at over 11 lbs) but look at what you get – complete movements using large format lens – the ability to have a sliding back (something that would be nice to have on the RS).

So there I’ve said it.

don


Just a comment of lens:

I have a Mamiya 28mm lens which has turned out to be an excellent copy (no I didn’t sell it after all) however I believe the 35 and 72mm lens I have along with my RS is stunning compared to anything I’ve seen taken with normal medium format. I truly believe the lens used in technical cameras out perform any other lens.

Edited:
I just looked at the current message and see that you’ve accepted the offer for the return of your money. I wish you well and good luck on what you try next hopeful you’ll find the perfect solution to your needs and will be willing to share it with us.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
(snip)


I’d go directly to the Cambo Ultima 23. Yes, the 23 is a tank (weighs in at over 11 lbs) but look at what you get – complete movements using large format lens – the ability to have a sliding back (something that would be nice to have on the RS).

So there I’ve said it.

don


Just a comment of lens:

I have a Mamiya 28mm lens which has turned out to be an excellent copy (no I didn’t sell it after all) however I believe the 35 and 72mm lens I have along with my RS is stunning compared to anything I’ve seen taken with normal medium format. I truly believe the lens used in technical cameras out perform any other lens.

Edited:
I just looked at the current message and see that you’ve accepted the offer for the return of your money. I wish you well and good luck on what you try next hopeful you’ll find the perfect solution to your needs and will be willing to share it with us.
Hi Don,

Actually, because I need a solution and because my dealer is willing to help find one, for now at least I'm not taking the money back: the dealer's going to see if a decent Phase/Hartblei turns up in the first batch (seems unlikely but Michaeil Reichmann at least did have a good one) and assuming that doesn't happen we're going to give the Silvestri Flexcam a go with the Phase back. This weighs about a kilo but has well calibrated front tilt/swing/shift and a sliding back. It's smaller than the Phamiya body too and will allow those great lenses you talk about...

But I suspect that reverting to black cloths, loupes, upside down composition etc might be too much of a retrograde step so I do have the option, if it does feel that way, of going straight into the Hassy system.

I know prices are largely going one way (except for the factor of the weakness of £) but I am loath just to take my money back and run because I do feel that the dealer is making good efforts and that it would be cynical to take advantage of that...

All the best

Tim
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Tim, as for the options you listed, how far does your budget stretch? The Cambo is offered with a Hasselblad back mount (SLW-89), so in theory, you could have both systems, side-by-side, and simply move the back to the camera you need it on. This would allow you to use each camera in its area of strength. The savings on the HTS would go far towards the Cambo, and hopefully you could find a way of traveling with both. The HTS is about the same size as the Cambo WRS 1000, without lens, and the Cambo is only 500g heavier. With the Cambo, however, you will be able to go much wider with no performance penalty. No tilt though.
That's what I'm planning with the Silvestri, which is the smallest, lightest field/tech type cam I can find with a good range of movements: it's really importnat to me to keep the weight down. Travelling with gear these days means an M8 and capsule lens collection, a P&S and MF so to have to carry two MF bodies is a pain, literally, that needs to be minimised! Don't forget, seperate bodies also means extra glass to carry whereas the Hassy T/S doesn't just add TS functionality, it also gives you a 1.5x converter so if you carry a 28 and an 80 you should have a serviceable 42 and 120....
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
If I were to make the next move into a system that will provide all the movements that the RS has and add the ability to tilt/shift (and here’s where my bias is showing) I’d go directly to the Cambo Ultima 23. Yes, the 23 is a tank (weighs in at over 11 lbs) but look at what you get – complete movements using large format lens – the ability to have a sliding back (something that would be nice to have on the RS).
I *have* to comment on the Ultima...


What many of you may not know about me, is I shot with 4x5 and 8x10 view cameras of all sorts before stepping down to direct MF digital capture. In that fray were bouts with Arca F-Metrics, Ebony's, Sinar P2's, Calumet, Toyo, Horseman and yes, even the Ultima in 23 form for use with my Canon 1Ds2...

Here's what I can tell you about using a film-designed view camera with smaller sensor digital: It sucks. The biggest issue with the Ultima is not its weight, nor its size -- in fact the mass of bulk helps to steady a view camera. However, one area often overlooked is the ability to lock the standards without having anything move. The Ultima's focus lock is a simple pressure pin on the rail next to the geared focus knob, and when you tighten it, the focus standard shifts slightly as it nestles into its track -- maybe 1/2 a mm or less, but enough to screw up focus, especially on smaller formats. Focus-shift tolerance goes down geometrically with sensor size; minor movements that would go unnoticed on 4x5 film will ruin an MF DB capture.

To put this in perspective, when I was shooting with my Betterlight scanning back, the realtime software had electronic focus confirmation. And the digital resolution allowed for instant and critical, 100% pixel view review of the captured image. With a 210mm lens at f11, a shift of 0.5mm on the focus standard would move precise focus from 30 meters to over 300 meters away(!) I never could "see" this viewing a 4x5 film image with an 8x loupe on a light box, or if I did, simply assumed I blew the precise focus...

Right now, having used most all of them, I think the Rollei X-Act and Linhof 679 are probably the most digital friendly view cameras avaialble. Also, I am confident this is why Sinar, Arca and Silvestri are making their newer dedicated MF tilt/shift camera designs.

Me, I'm waiting on either the Arca RM3D or the Silvestri Bi or Flexi cam as I see them as being the closest to ideal MF configurations for my needs -- assuming they lock down without anything moving.

~~~

Topic #2: how often do I really need tilt.

The simple answer is less often as I go shorter on focal length. With 4x5 and larger formats, it was used in almost every shot; with smaller formats, the added DoF from diminished format size seem to carry the day for many images. IOW, I wish I had it from time-to-time on a 45mm or longer MF lens, but rarely would feel the need on a 35 or 24mm MF lens.

The other side of this coin is that tilt can only maintain focus in a single plane of focus (or more accurately wedge of focus), which does not often help in an image where we want to extend DoF throughout the entire frame. With digital, we have the benefit of being able to exploit focus blending. I am no expert in this, but my first trials with it are very promising. While it doesn't completely replace the need for tilt, it does offer a solution that accomplishes the same task for maybe 90% of my images that would need tilt in the first place.

Sorry if I took up too much space in this thread, and should probably have started another thread on the merits of camera movements with the MF digital back...

Cheers,
 

David Klepacki

New member
Total Weight: 3 lbs. (2lbs. without PC-Mutar)
Size: 6.75in x 6in x 4.5in (H x W x D)
Lens and Back mount: Hasselblad V
Tripod mount: Arca-Swiss

Lenses: 30CFi - 350CFE (all Hasselblad V lenses with leaf shutter)
With PC-Mutar: enlarges image circles to 113mm for 30,40,50,60, 80 lenses, and to 96mm for 100 lens)

Rear rise/fall: +/- 14mm
Rear tilt: +/- 28 degrees
Front rise/fall: +/- 16mm
Front shift: +7mm / -3mm (+23mm / -19mm with PC-Mutar rotated)
Front swing: +/- 15 degrees
Extension: -2mm / +24mm
 
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tashley

Subscriber Member
Sorry if I took up too much space in this thread, and should probably have started another thread on the merits of camera movements with the MF digital back...

Cheers,
Jack, I found that incredibly useful. I too have shot large format film but not tried to use an MF back on such a beastie. I was attracted to the Silvestri (have you handled one BTW? they are very small and cute) for tis size rather than anything else so when I trial it I will be careful to see how sensitive the focus is. It runs on a knurled knob and feels quite sensibly damped but it may be a 'settler'

As for DOF. Hmm. Interesting. I generally prefer (with the exception of graduated filters!) to do as much in camera as possible so focus blending seems to me un-Tim-like and I'm convinced (with no evidence whatsoever!) that I'd be able to 'see the join' even if subliminally. And I agree that with shorter focal lengths, for landscape work, tilts will rarely be used. In fact Phase and my dealer suggested a shift-only solution with a Cambo or Horseman. But I think that if I'm going this way, there's nothing to lose by getting the Silvestri and retaining the ability to shift even if used only rarely...

T
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Total Weight: 3 lbs. (2lbs. without PC-Mutar)
Size: 6.75in x 6in x 4.5in (H x W x D)
Lens and Back mount: Hasselblad V
Tripod mount: Arca-Swiss

Lenses: 30CFi - 350CFE (all Hasselblad V lenses with leaf shutter)
With PC-Mutar: enlarges image circles to 113mm for 30,40,50,60, 80 lenses, and to 96mm for 100 lens)

Rear rise/fall: +/- 14mm
Rear tilt: +/- 28 degrees
Front rise/fall: +/- 16mm
Front shift: +7mm / -3mm (+23mm / -19mm with PC-Mutar rotated)
Front swing: +/- 15 degrees
Extension: -2mm / +24mm
Nice. Why oh why isn't there one for Phamiya (assuming it works!)?
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Tim:

I have not yet handled the Silvestri in person, thus my comment about waiting on it. I have seen other Silvestri cameras and the build quality while very good, is not as refined as say Arca or Linhof.

I *hope* to have a demo Sivestri FLexi sample with us in Moab in a few weeks. In the meantime, I am pretty sure there is a Silvestri dealer in the UK -- Linhof House or something similar? -- that stocks them, so might be worth you looking them up?

~~~
A note on the Hassy Flex... David, that is a superb concoction! However, I have some concerns for my needs... The 30 is a fisheye, so the shortest usable rectilinear focal is the 40. Without the Mutar, IIRC the IC is 80mm, so about 10mm of free IC in any direction, correct? With the Mutar, the IC increases, but so does the focal by a factor of 1.4, so your 40 becomes a 56... Looks like a *GREAT* little device, but does not appear to solve two of my main needs -- a hyper-wide rectilinear at 24mm or thereabouts and a sharp 35 focal with enough IC for 10mm - 12mm shifts...

Cheers,
 

David Klepacki

New member
Nice. Why oh why isn't there one for Phamiya (assuming it works!)?
Yeah, it works beautifully with a few test shots indoors. Right now, I am a little snowed in, but as soon as I get out, I can test its utility outdoors as well. It sure beats the heck out of lugging a monorail system around, and easily fits into my smallest pack.
 
D

ddk

Guest
Another alternative...

Hi Don,

Actually, because I need a solution and because my dealer is willing to help find one, for now at least I'm not taking the money back: the dealer's going to see if a decent Phase/Hartblei turns up in the first batch (seems unlikely but Michaeil Reichmann at least did have a good one) and assuming that doesn't happen we're going to give the Silvestri Flexcam a go with the Phase back. This weighs about a kilo but has well calibrated front tilt/swing/shift and a sliding back. It's smaller than the Phamiya body too and will allow those great lenses you talk about...

But I suspect that reverting to black cloths, loupes, upside down composition etc might be too much of a retrograde step so I do have the option, if it does feel that way, of going straight into the Hassy system.

I know prices are largely going one way (except for the factor of the weakness of £) but I am loath just to take my money back and run because I do feel that the dealer is making good efforts and that it would be cynical to take advantage of that...

All the best

Tim
Hi Tim,

You ought to look at the Fuji GX680 III system with a rotating plate adaptor!

I recently went down the same road looking for a T&S solution for my Contax 645 setup and like you wanted something simple and light to use. After a lot of research I ended up with an Arca Swiss 6x9 F Line, very light and compact and after talking to them I opted out of the Metric and Orbix versions. Its a great camera but you have to deal with the pain of inverted images, sliding backs, loupes, etc., etc. that you mentioned so I continued looking and came across the Fuji. It might be what you're looking for, its a very complete slr camera system with wlf and prism finders and wonderful, sharp lenses. Its even more compact and lighter than the 6x9 Arca with many great samples readily available on e-bay.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
The GX680 is an outstanding system with great glass, but again the shortest lenses are the limitation -- 65mm for that system IIRC :(
 
D

ddk

Guest
The GX680 is an outstanding system with great glass, but again the shortest lenses are the limitation -- 65mm for that system IIRC :(
Actually the widest Fuji GX lens is 50mm and if you check you'll see that there are very few view cameras which can take anything wider. In practical terms, even if you have one of these cameras, focusing a 24mm or even a 35mm ultra-wide without LiveView and a nice computer screen isn't exactly that easy. In the field its panos and stitches when you need wider!



 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Tim:

I have not yet handled the Silvestri in person, thus my comment about waiting on it. I have seen other Silvestri cameras and the build quality while very good, is not as refined as say Arca or Linhof.

I *hope* to have a demo Sivestri FLexi sample with us in Moab in a few weeks. In the meantime, I am pretty sure there is a Silvestri dealer in the UK -- Linhof House or something similar? -- that stocks them, so might be worth you looking them up?
My dealer has them but currently only in Hassy V fit. He's getting a Mammy fit in for me to try. But I've had a good look at one in the flesh and I like it very much.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Re: Another alternative...

Hi Tim,

You ought to look at the Fuji GX680 III system with a rotating plate adaptor!

I recently went down the same road looking for a T&S solution for my Contax 645 setup and like you wanted something simple and light to use. After a lot of research I ended up with an Arca Swiss 6x9 F Line, very light and compact and after talking to them I opted out of the Metric and Orbix versions. Its a great camera but you have to deal with the pain of inverted images, sliding backs, loupes, etc., etc. that you mentioned so I continued looking and came across the Fuji. It might be what you're looking for, its a very complete slr camera system with wlf and prism finders and wonderful, sharp lenses. Its even more compact and lighter than the 6x9 Arca with many great samples readily available on e-bay.

What's the back fitting for it? Sounds interesting...
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Actually the widest Fuji GX lens is 50mm and if you check you'll see that there are very few view cameras which can take anything wider. In practical terms, even if you have one of these cameras, focusing a 24mm or even a 35mm ultra-wide without LiveView and a nice computer screen isn't exactly that easy. In the field its panos and stitches when you need wider!
Cool on the 50 for the GX, I stand corrected :)

Also, understand the limitation with the stated lens standards on view cameras, but be advised 3rd party vendors offer more deeply recessed lensboards for many of those cameras that do allow for mounting shorter lenses.

Notwithstanding, the dedicated MF tilt/shift cameras can use lenses as short as 23mm (virtually no movements unless focused closer than infinity due to IC), and offer pretty healthy movements in the 35 and up focals.

My current favorite, the Silvestri Flex, appears basically like the Hassy Flex shown above, but for use with normal mount view lenses and a variety of back attachment options, so in that it solves all of my main criteria and is quite compact. As an option, one can use it with or without a sliding back, offering even more flexibility.

Cheers,
 
D

ddk

Guest
Cool on the 50 for the GX, I stand corrected :)

Also, understand the limitation with the stated lens standards on view cameras, but be advised 3rd party vendors offer more deeply recessed lensboards for many of those cameras that do allow for mounting shorter lenses.
Yes, but you're left on your own to find out which boards really work with which camera and how much t/s if any you have at infinity; and more likely than not you'll need live view using these boards.

Notwithstanding, the dedicated MF tilt/shift cameras can use lenses as short as 23mm (virtually no movements unless focused closer than infinity due to IC), and offer pretty healthy movements in the 35 and up focals.

My current favorite, the Silvestri Flex, appears basically like the Hassy Flex shown above, but for use with normal mount view lenses and a variety of back attachment options, so in that it solves all of my main criteria and is quite compact. As an option, one can use it with or without a sliding back, offering even more flexibility.

Cheers,
I guess since I don't do any serious architectural and only use the camera outdoors along with a lot less experience I probably have much less stringent needs than you Jack, I'm learning from these exchanges. The Silvestri sure looks interesting but you still face the same focusing issues with the widest lenses and you can't stitch with their sliding back when using longer lenses.




PS. The more I learn about large format and MFDBs the more I realize that film is going to be with us for quite a while longer!
 
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Don Libby

Well-known member
Just finished reading Jack’s message pertaining to technical cameras and medium format and wanted to say once again Thank-You! This is yet again an excellent example why wherever I’m near a computer with internet I come to GetDPI (sometimes before checking email).

don
 
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