A down to the line decision

[tashley]

The Sinar arTec is really perfect, compact and T/S. It is just very pricy.

At about $9,000 plus sales tax it sure is pricey and doesn't seem to meet my fairly average needs more than the Silvestri at about $1,500.

However it is beautiful and very wantable. Good job it's only in Sinar Hy6, Leaf AFi interface, and Hasselblad V fit...

 

[Don Libby]

Am I the only one who thinks that it is a big benefit if you use a technical camera which could be used handheld as well? (with technical camera I include cambo,alpa, horseman etc. - I hope this is correct wording)

Cheers, Tom

Tom

Just noticed you never got an answer to this.

Yes it’s doable at least with the Cambo. Michael Reichmann used his handheld while he was in a zodiac last time (prior to this trip) Antarctica. I tried to do the same with my RS 1000 and found it doable provided you have the proper shutter release like Kapture Group; being the cheap bastard I am :toocool: I’m using the excellent Capture Integration setup which cost several hundred dollars less. It worked for me but I felt I needed an extra hand while handholding.

don

 

[shakeshuck]

The other *huge* issue with movements on the DB's is the color shift and requirement for the associated LCC white correction frame.

Jack, do the Betterlight backs have the same problems with colour shift, are they any better/worse than MFDBs?

 

[tashley]

I thought people might find this comparison useful: it shows the difference in quality at the edge of the frame between a Hassy 35mm retrofocus lens and a Schneider on a tech camera. Significant but not as great as I would have expected...

http://www.phaseone.com/upload/wide_angle_product_info.pdf

 

[Jack]

Jack, do the Betterlight backs have the same problems with colour shift, are they any better/worse than MFDBs?

Nope, the Bettelight is not cursed with this anomaly as there is nothing over the scanning sensor array itself -- it is protected by being stored inside the metal back when not scanning -- though you do need to therefore place an IR cut filter over the lens.

 

[dougpeterson]

I thought people might find this comparison useful: it shows the difference in quality at the edge of the frame between a Hassy 35mm retrofocus lens and a Schneider on a tech camera. Significant but not as great as I would have expected...

http://www.phaseone.com/upload/wide_angle_product_info.pdf

The HC35mm is a good lens.

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/

At the bottom of that link we have a comparison of that lens to the Rodenstock 35mm. With no shift the differences in chromatic aberration and sharpness at the frame-edges is easily visible. Whether it's "huge" or "minor" I guess depends on what your standards of measure are. Download the samples and judge for yourself.

However, keep in mind the primary reason you buy a tech camera is to allow distortion-free perspective-corrected rise. So the ability to start with a 35mm perspective and rise 10mm is huge (or the 28mm and rise a bit). The more relevant comparison then would be a tech camera with a 28mm, 35mm, or 47mm lens with rise compared to an HC28mm with an HTS1.5 (equivalent of a 44mm) with rise (meaning you're pushing through the worst part of the glass. We'll have to wait until the HTS is shipping, but I don't there is anyone here who would be optimistic for the 28mm in that comparison.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

 

[tashley]

The HC35mm is a good lens.

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/

At the bottom of that link we have a comparison of that lens to the Rodenstock 35mm. With no shift the differences in chromatic aberration and sharpness at the frame-edges is easily visible. Whether it's "huge" or "minor" I guess depends on what your standards of measure are. Download the samples and judge for yourself.

However, keep in mind the primary reason you buy a tech camera is to allow distortion-free perspective-corrected rise. So the ability to start with a 35mm perspective and rise 10mm is huge (or the 28mm and rise a bit). The more relevant comparison then would be a tech camera with a 28mm, 35mm, or 47mm lens with rise compared to an HC28mm with an HTS1.5 (equivalent of a 44mm) with rise (meaning you're pushing through the worst part of the glass. We'll have to wait until the HTS is shipping, but I don't there is anyone here who would be optimistic for the 28mm in that comparison.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

Doug, that is incredibly useful and I should certainly have checked your site: it usually has the most useful comparisons and tests!

For me (and due to glitchy broadband this evening it took me forever to download so I only looked at the F11 shots) the unshifted shots were moderately different in favour of the Cambo setup on the left and more evident on the right, but that latter could be the result of a number of factors. In any event it was clear that the cambo was better on the edges though the centre was harder to judge. The MF lens may or may not show better centre resolution but it seems to have slightly more acuity though again that could be down to a number of factors. What is clear is that the shifted shot was really really good and I agree that I would place no bets on the Hassy t/s setup getting very close.

Close enough though? Hmm... I am still irritatingly caught between the slightly lazy option of going for the Hassy because it's far less hassle and keeping fingers crossed that it gets 'close enough' - or holding out for the best by going with a Silvestri and Schneider setup.

Having said all that, I look again in detail at the Superhero poster on the right and it looks like a higher res camera altogether in the Cambo shot.

Damn!

But thanks, really, thank you very much indeed. I think this might be my answer.

One question: I was going to get the Silvestri Flexi because it has all movements and is light. The Cambo is kind of large and heavier and only has shift, so the Horseman seems better (smaller, lighter) but also is only shift. For landscape use with wides, I figure I can give up tilt due to the DOF of a 28 or 35 on a Horseman but for interiors, wouldn't tilt help avoid stopping down into the diffraction zone?

One more: would you use the grad centre ND's or do it in post? And do you shoot LCC for every shot or just use a standard library?

Best

Tim
Best

Tim

 

[Paratom]

One question: I was going to get the Silvestri Flexi because it has all movements and is light. The Cambo is kind of large and heavier and only has shift, so the Horseman seems better (smaller, lighter) but also is only shift. For landscape use with wides, I figure I can give up tilt due to the DOF of a 28 or 35 on a Horseman but for interiors, wouldn't tilt help avoid stopping down into the diffraction zone?

One more: would you use the grad centre ND's or do it in post? And do you shoot LCC for every shot or just use a standard library?

Best

Tim
Best

Tim

Tim,
what about the Cambor Wide RS, I wouldnt expect it to be large and heavy.

 

[tashley]

Tim,
what about the Cambor Wide RS, I wouldnt expect it to be large and heavy.

Phase have details of both on their site and there are reviews of both on Luminous Landscape. The Cambo is quite a bit bigger and heavier...

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

The HC35mm is a good lens.

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/

At the bottom of that link we have a comparison of that lens to the Rodenstock 35mm. With no shift the differences in chromatic aberration and sharpness at the frame-edges is easily visible. Whether it's "huge" or "minor" I guess depends on what your standards of measure are. Download the samples and judge for yourself.

However, keep in mind the primary reason you buy a tech camera is to allow distortion-free perspective-corrected rise. So the ability to start with a 35mm perspective and rise 10mm is huge (or the 28mm and rise a bit). The more relevant comparison then would be a tech camera with a 28mm, 35mm, or 47mm lens with rise compared to an HC28mm with an HTS1.5 (equivalent of a 44mm) with rise (meaning you're pushing through the worst part of the glass. We'll have to wait until the HTS is shipping, but I don't there is anyone here who would be optimistic for the 28mm in that comparison.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

Doug,

You are making a lot of assumptions on the HTS + 28mm combo without actually using a production unit. This is unfair and likely to sway people's decision either way.

I would say to any user to test it in their use / situation and make their own assumptions.

The HCD28 is an excellent lens with corner to corner sharpness and a solid startpoint for the HTS.

I would agree that a specific Rodenstock / Schneider lens will perform better on an Alpa-esque camera but for somebody like Tim he wishes to balance this with useability in the field.

Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare to gain that extra 10% in quality if it is that at all.

The H3D + HTS is a powerful one-kit combination which could be very useful to any photographer. The tests we made with the 28 with very early HTS units without full corrections and full optimisation already performed extremely well.

With the 'polished' lens elements (pun intended) I expect a really really useful photographic tool.

HTS units we have leant to photographers have wondered how they ever survived without it.

Best,


David

EDIT - Another thing to mention is not having to do an LCC shot with the HTS. So far we have not seen this as necessary.

 

[Paratom]

Phase have details of both on their site and there are reviews of both on Luminous Landscape. The Cambo is quite a bit bigger and heavier...

The review and phase infois about the Cambo WIDE DS, the newer Cambo RS ( WRS-1000) is quite a bit smaller and lighter.

 

[tashley]

Doug,

You are making a lot of assumptions on the HTS + 28mm combo without actually using a production unit. This is unfair and likely to sway people's decision either way.

I would say to any user to test it in their use / situation and make their own assumptions.

The HCD28 is an excellent lens with corner to corner sharpness and a solid startpoint for the HTS.

I would agree that a specific Rodenstock / Schneider lens will perform better on an Alpa-esque camera but for somebody like Tim he wishes to balance this with useability in the field.

Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare to gain that extra 10% in quality if it is that at all.

The H3D + HTS is a powerful one-kit combination which could be very useful to any photographer. The tests we made with the 28 with very early HTS units without full corrections and full optimisation already performed extremely well.

With the 'polished' lens elements (pun intended) I expect a really really useful photographic tool.

HTS units we have leant to photographers have wondered how they ever survived without it.

Best,


David

EDIT - Another thing to mention is not having to do an LCC shot with the HTS. So far we have not seen this as necessary.

David, you have a PM...

 

[tashley]

The review and phase infois about the Cambo WIDE DS, the newer Cambo RS ( WRS-1000) is quite a bit smaller and lighter.

Hmm, it still weighs in at 33% more than the Horseman but it does look tasty...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The WRS-1000 is very small Tim. I will have one in Moab next week and shoot it along side something that you can recognize for size purposes.

 

[tashley]

The WRS-1000 is very small Tim. I will have one in Moab next week and shoot it along side something that you can recognize for size purposes.

Thank you Guy - that'd very interesting! So you have one? What do you think?

 

[dougpeterson]

Doug,

You are making a lot of assumptions on the HTS + 28mm combo without actually using a production unit. This is unfair and likely to sway people's decision either way.

I would say to any user to test it in their use / situation and make their own assumptions.

The HCD28 is an excellent lens with corner to corner sharpness and a solid startpoint for the HTS.

I would agree that a specific Rodenstock / Schneider lens will perform better on an Alpa-esque camera but for somebody like Tim he wishes to balance this with useability in the field.

Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare to gain that extra 10% in quality if it is that at all.

I think it should be clear to the board that I greatly respect David, and give Hasselblad credit where credit is due. The HTS is a really great idea and I think it will provide many photographers a very useful and high quality tool. The HTS is still a work-in-progress so none of us know how good it will be, though it seems likely Hasselblad will impress with a well made system.

However, I will eat my hat* if the HC28mm on the HTS when shot with shift or tilt can stand next to a Schneider/Rodenstock 47mm on final image quality.

Furthermore, 47mm (which is the widest the HTS system goes) is not all that wide, so the availability of 35mm, 28mm, 24mm, 23mm lenses is a not-so-minor difference between the platforms. Throw in the ability to shift the 23mm, 28mm, and 35mm and the wide-angle options clearly favor the tech body.

I'll be the first to caution that none of these solutions are that different at small print sizes. Even a double-truck in a magazine is unlikely to be night-and-day. However, interior and landscape shooters who are choosing a P1 or Hassy are not going for "good enough" they are going for the best. In this case there can be zero doubt that the best solution is large format glass on a tech body and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare.

There is just as little doubt that the HTS or P1 45TS are more convenient and faster than a tech camera. You simply cannot have both the most convenient and the highest quality solutions. Let's look at these limitations though:
Viewfinder: Tech cameras require a rangefinder. You can confirm exact composition on the LCD immediately after capture.
In-Camera Metering: You have to use a light meter. You can confirm exposure via histogram on the LCD immediatly after capture.
Lens Corrections: You take an LCC at the time of capture. Not convenient, but really quite easy. Sharpness fall-off, light fall-off, and pincushion/barrel distortion are not corrected because the lens is pristine to start off with.
Single Source of Battery: All modern Phase One backs work on a tech camera with the same one battery that they use on any body. The requirement of a separate module for power/storage when on a tech camera is a limitation of the Hasselblad H backs.

So David is right, if you are unable or unwilling to adapt to the slower workflow then a tech body is not for you. However, it IS higher quality and it is light years faster than a 4x5, so pick your poison.

*I received a really great Fedora from my girlfriend for Christmas.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

 

[dougpeterson]

One question: I was going to get the Silvestri Flexi because it has all movements and is light. The Cambo is kind of large and heavier and only has shift, so the Horseman seems better (smaller, lighter) but also is only shift. For landscape use with wides, I figure I can give up tilt due to the DOF of a 28 or 35 on a Horseman but for interiors, wouldn't tilt help avoid stopping down into the diffraction zone?

One more: would you use the grad centre ND's or do it in post? And do you shoot LCC for every shot or just use a standard library?

Best

Tim
Best

Tim

I shoot an LCC on every shot, but either method works.

I recommend the Centre ND for the 24mm. On the 35mm it is less important, but still a good idea. I have less experience on the 28mm and 23mm.

As for tilt I think you'll find you need it less often than you think, even for interiors. Here some points that will help you decide if you need it.
1) Tilt only helps apparent DOF if there is nothing in the foreground toward the top of the frame. So chandeliers, paintings on near walls, kitchen cabinets etc all exclude tilt.
2) On the 35mm and 24mm we've found f/11 and f/8 to be not meaningfully different. F/16 is diffracted and some micro detail is lost, but it is still darn good. Only at f/22 does the sharpness really fall off.
3) At the really wide angles f/11-f/16 covers a lot of ground. On the 35mm at f/11.5 you'll have critical focus from around 2 meters to infinity, and acceptable focus a bit closer than that (depending on your personal definition of 'acceptable').
4) The fall-off in sharpness and out-of-focus areas (Bokeh) is very pleasant.
5) Remember that f-stops are like focal lengths; they mean different things on different formats. So f/16 on a MFDB has the same DOF as f/45 on a 4x5 view camera (calculator).
5) Interiors are a great situation for DOF-stacking (built into CS4) in which you can attain limitless DOF without losing any sharpness to diffraction.

So in short: you won't miss tilt as often as you think, and on the occasion that you do DOF-stacking is a good substitute.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

 

[Don Libby]

Let me add my experiences as they pertain to a Cambo RS 1000 and Phase One P45+ back:

Viewfinder: Haven't bought one yet and so far haven't needed one. I've never lost a shot (picture me knocking on wood) then again my "vast" experience to date has been shooting the Grand Canyon - check back with me after I finish shooting the Redwoods next week. I do confirm composition on the LCD.

In-Camera Metering: While I have a light meter I rely on the histogram more than anything else.

Lens Corrections: I've got a library of LCC's that I put together with my more common shifts however I'll still shoot the occasion LCC to be on the safe side. Remember it's always better to have and not need than to need and not have.

Single Source of Battery: The only power consumption is the back thus there's only one battery (okay 2 as I always carry an extra in my pocket).

Shooting a technical camera forces you into a totally different time zone. The capture workflow is much slower which is not necessarily a bad thing. It has taken me several minutes from the time I set the tripod down, put the camera on it, leveled everything, taken the lens cap off, checked distance, checked focal length on the lens, turn the back on, cock the shutter, and finally take the first image. During this time I'm composing the image sometimes finding the reason I stopped wasn't as good the area next to it which I may not have seen if I had my eyes glues to a viewfinder. I'm slowing training my eyes to become my viewfinder!

Personally I enjoy the slower pace of shooting with a technical camera as I "feel" closer to the image; my only regret is that I hadn't made the switch sooner.

I'm currently shooting with either a 35 or 72mm lens.

don

 

[etrigan63]

Doug,

You are making a lot of assumptions on the HTS + 28mm combo without actually using a production unit. This is unfair and likely to sway people's decision either way.

I would say to any user to test it in their use / situation and make their own assumptions.

The HCD28 is an excellent lens with corner to corner sharpness and a solid startpoint for the HTS.

I would agree that a specific Rodenstock / Schneider lens will perform better on an Alpa-esque camera but for somebody like Tim he wishes to balance this with useability in the field.

Giving up a viewfinder / in-camera metering / single source battery / lens corrections based on meta data (not guesswork) / ease of use / composition may be too much to bare to gain that extra 10% in quality if it is that at all.

The H3D + HTS is a powerful one-kit combination which could be very useful to any photographer. The tests we made with the 28 with very early HTS units without full corrections and full optimisation already performed extremely well.

With the 'polished' lens elements (pun intended) I expect a really really useful photographic tool.

HTS units we have leant to photographers have wondered how they ever survived without it.

Best,


David

EDIT - Another thing to mention is not having to do an LCC shot with the HTS. So far we have not seen this as necessary.

You have a PM from me, too.

 

[Clawery]

Here is a link that Jeffrey T. had posted showing the differences between the Cambo RS and WDS.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2677&highlight=Cambo+RS

The Cambo RS is 1.2 kg (2.6 lbs) and measures 155mm(6.1") x 165mm(6.5")
(without lens).

The Cambo WDS is 1.4kg (3.2 lbs) and measures 170mm(6.9") x 183mm(7.3") (without lens).

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
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