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Thread: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

  1. #51
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Jon,

    Yes, thanks, I have held a Pentax 645D. Though it's a bit insulting that you'd think I have not.

    We could go back and forth on the details forever. For instance the live view on the *shipping* IQ250 is excellent, contrary to what "you've heard" (where did you hear this??). See our IQ250 Live View video as one example).

    But my point was not that the Pentax 645D II isn't going to be a good camera. I assume it will be a very nice camera, like it's predecessor. I'd also be happy to agree there are some features the current Pentax 645D has over comparable Phase/Leaf/Hassy offerings, and the same will be likely true of the Pentax 645D II.

    In other words I wasn't attacking your camera.

    My point was only that the sky is not falling for Phase/Leaf/Hassy and that, as counter intuitive as it is, having a lower-end product enter a market segment often helps the dominant players. Phase/Leaf sold more The Mamiya ZD didn't kill Phase One's P25 sales; if anything, they improved them. Leica will still sell lots of M bodies even though you can buy a Sony FF rangefinder with arguably "more features" for less money. Phase One IQ140 and Credo 40 sales weren't crushed by the Pentax 645D (mark 1); to the contrary, sales were up over that period.

    The theory, and in the last several years my practical experience has been, the more offerings they are for higher-end cameras the more people start researching all their options (they may hear about a ZD, or a Pentax, but they're going to spend at least a few hours checking out the relevant competition before they commit) and the more people start researching their options the more total people will end up finding a Phase One or Leaf is the best choice for them (some/many will also end up reaffirming their original plan to go with the ZD/Pentax/etc).

    And re: "i think Phase One is great for studio" - working for the largest dealer in the US does provide some insight here: about 50% of our customers at this point spend little or no time in a studio.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    You people have a point on the price of the excretable DF body. Going through DF shutters like water we're on the point of having to buy a second DF just to have while we send the other for repair.
    Notably with your digital back you can slap it on the back of a cultural heritage camera designed specifically for the art reproduction work you're doing and your shutter issues would vanish.

    Art Repro and cultural heritage is tough on ANY SLR shutter. Hell even with our camera's million-release warranty our cultural heritage clients frequently exceed the warranty and have to replace a shutter at (we've been averaging) around 1.5 million releases.

    With an all-in-one design the Pentax would not be able to work on such a camera.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Wow....is the Phase One DF+ body really that expensive? I can certainly see paying more for a detachable MFDB, but $6k for the body with no back? That seems a little high. What are they thinking?
    The vast majority of DF+ are sold as part of a kit, where the body and Schneider 80LS or Phase One 80D are bundled with a back at a much lower effective price. The DF+ and 80D are, for instance, included in the Credo 40 bundle promo.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    ....
    My point is I don't think the look of camera is matter. "Ugly women always get married".

    Pramote
    No matter how well she performs in bed---she's still ugly. Well, maybe with the lights off...

    We're just being tongue in cheek fun here and it doesn't matter except where the Pentax performs (paper bag handy or lights out). I'm serious here---I'd like to see how the Pentax 645D II would be as a converted IR camera. That's IR with live view. That's huge. Graham? You got room in that camera cart land rover ...

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Notably with your digital back you can slap it on the back of a cultural heritage camera designed specifically for the art reproduction work you're doing and your shutter issues would vanish.

    Art Repro and cultural heritage is tough on ANY SLR shutter. Hell even with our camera's million-release warranty our cultural heritage clients frequently exceed the warranty and have to replace a shutter at (we've been averaging) around 1.5 million releases.

    With an all-in-one design the Pentax would not be able to work on such a camera.
    Doug,

    Your objectivity is waning as are the continuous sales pitches. The DF has had notable MLU issues, and in some cases shutters that destroy themselves inside the camera. Let's be honest about photo gear because we will all benefit if we can share our experiences without reprisals wrapped in sunshine and lollipops and the always cute emoticons! The price of MFD does not mean you will always get the best when most firmly believe they should...and why not?

    As for new camera releases from other companies increasing your sales is perplexing unless your just comparing studio / tech only photographers with limited end use, but these specialized photographers already know those limitations. Oddly, you left out the D800 when comparing models. For an all around MFD camera with competing resolution that will suffice for many shooters without the insult of entry prices, you should be pleased then that Pentax is releasing the 645DII, as your profit margins will surely be realized.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 16th February 2014 at 07:58.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    From a distance, its interesting to watch the price sniping going on here. If the Pentax were 70-80% of the cost of more expensive cameras, heck, the conversations might even be more fierce. But since we're dealing with multiples of difference (2X or more), something else might be occurring. With such variation, its likely price is not the primary factor as people make these choices. It was probably always this way in photog, but seems even more evident in MFD.
    www.gigi-photos.com
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    I don't see the 645DII as a game changer anymore than the 645D was. The 645D uses the same sensor as the Hasselblad 40MP and an equivalent Kodak sensor to that used in the Leica and those companies don’t appear to have been impacted to any large extent. Sure it may have caused some pricing pressure, but not as much as the Nikon 800 (IMHO). I love my 645D, but lenses, system and support continue to be an issue for Pentax, most especially in the US. I'm not particularly tempted by the 645DII at this point, other than higher ISO it doesn't offer much that is important to me.

    As to appearance, none of the MF cameras is something I would display as art (well, maybe a tech cam). I really liked the appearance of the Pentax 645 film cameras and found the softer, wider shape of the 645D a bit of a disappointment – something like a 645N that had been eating too many doughnuts.

    I like the appearance of the Sony A7 - no curves, angular - very crystalline.

    Tom
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Notably with your digital back you can slap it on the back of a cultural heritage camera designed specifically for the art reproduction work you're doing and your shutter issues would vanish.

    Art Repro and cultural heritage is tough on ANY SLR shutter. Hell even with our camera's million-release warranty our cultural heritage clients frequently exceed the warranty and have to replace a shutter at (we've been averaging) around 1.5 million releases.

    With an all-in-one design the Pentax would not be able to work on such a camera.
    It was going to be one of my first options Doug. Problem is that Live View with our Aptus II is just not good enough for consistent accurate (close to) macro distance focusing. From our testing AF gets sharper results pretty much every time. Mainly due to the lag with the LV. What is the price of your camera? Close focus distance? Can it be triggered electronically? I'm willing to change my mind. We blew through our DF+ new shutter (they put the DF+ shutter rated for 100K in our DF last time) in 7 months, i.e. just a month after the warranty was up. If we go for a manual focus solution it has to be easy to use across multiple workers and thousands of pages per day. I'm worried about consistency of focus between photographers and books in a fast paced environment.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    I recently got an email for a promo on brand new Credo 40 kits with DF and lens for like 13K. So we can't be that far off the price. Granted it is a different back.

    The Phase/Hassy prices will have to drop in the mid-long term. There is no way you sell a cropped 50MP back for 35K when there are competing 40MP backs in the 10-15K range from below, and 60-80MP used backs in the 15-30K range from above.

    The Phase secret sauce can be argued till the cows come, but I have certainly chomped on my share of lips and teeth in it. The last of these was the "oops" we forgot to put LV in the Achro 260, and "OOPS" we forgot to tell you when you shelled out 45 large for it. Ironically, with the IQ250, there is an entire campaign being run around LV. In all this time, not a single correspondence from Denmark explaining the situation of why a cornerstone feature of the IQ series was an afterthought, even worse, spoken of multiple times in their literature on the back when promoting its sale...BTW, did I mention it was 45 large and I waited 4 months after giving 1/2 money up front for the order, investing in a bunch of filters and only to find out it could not focus off spectrum without a bunch of workarounds? The IQ was wonderful, but the experience was terrible and the workflow for me was not practical. Apparently a lot my experience was used to improve the launch process for the IQ250, so that gives me a nice warm and fuzzy and I will add up the time I wasted and the money I lost and see if Revenue Canada will allow me a deduction.

    My dealer was kind enough to take it back. Any good service we see from Phase is from the dealer network and the time they spend with their customers' issues, making up for the manufacturer's shortcomings. I feel for these guys are the unsung heroes, and they are stuck in this "cottage" industry with nowhere to go. At least they have their rental businesses to keep them supplemented.

    Most annoying is the double talk. It is sickening, some can be written off to marketing, but you cannot start talking about 1-2 fps as capable of shooting sports, or tout CCD as a unique look and then start claiming CMOS is better when you finally have a back out, or claim the DF focus compares to DSLRs.

    Yes I am griping but I expect more when I spend this kind of money. I still have an IQ180 and DF and lenses and so yes, I do have their kit and some experience dealing with them. On a positive note the crappy Phase service is certainly delivered with less arrogance than the crappy service from Leaf - yes I also and an Aptus 12 for a while! If anyone wants to debate this, I'd be happy to forward emails. I will not even get into the Capture One "GPU" certification process!

    For me, tech cam use will always keep in the the MFDB game. When time, patience, and expensive lenses are in abundance, the results cannot be matched by any other system yet. However, I am of the opinion that MF can only be sustained by critical mass. Sony appears to be doing this by making the this sensor ubiquitous. I appreciate there may be subtle differences as we see in skin tones between Leaf and Phase, but I don't expect anything earth shattering.

    I do think we will have a rangefinder type EVF implementation in a mirror less body soon with these CMOS sensors, but purely speculative.

    Pentax is coming at this from a DSLR starting point, and in that sense they do have an advantage. In the end, these are tools and the decision will be made on price/value/performance and invested base already in an individual's kit.

    Our incumbent vendors - Phase/Hassy need to change their business models. USB 3 still not fully implemented, new DF, 4 years later still a pipe dream, issues like what I described regarding LV on the Achro etc. are simply not acceptable. Would I drop 45K on a Bimmer take it home and find out it has no seats, and will never have seats, but I can use my lawn chairs in it as a workaround?

    BTW, I saw the new Hassy Sony A99 rebadge in Frankfurt. Looked like an A99 drowned and was pulled out of the water 9 months later. Was front and centre in a display case with a 6999Euro price next to it. What a joke!!!

    I appreciate most of you have a lot invested in this gear and there is a certain emotional obligation that comes with it. I feel the same way, but sometimes a sh1t sandwich is just that. For the rest of the debates from people that have never shot extensively with these cameras or dealt with these companies, the arguments are not much different from a group of pre-pubescent boys debating the merits of a Ferrari vs. a Porsche!

    One sliver of hope is that larger established companies like Ricoh and Sony are now investing more in this product category, and that can only elevate the entire market.

    Sorry for the rant, I've now got to go change some diapers.
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    A few comments. Specs look really good for 645DII but I'm not quite ready to let go of my CCD 645D just yet till an in depth comparison of low ISO Raw files is compared between the two cameras. Think of the image charateristic differences between the CCD M9 and the high ISO feature laden CMOS Leica M240. Time will tell but I do have confidence that it's performance will be notable.

    I too wish the new wide angle zoom was much akin to Leica's 30-90 zoom. I think that would have peeked the interest of Landscape 35mm photographers who are thinking of moving up to MFD. We already have the legacy 45-85 645 zoom which for a relatively poultry sum is a exceptional performer, especially between 45 and 65mm. Unfortunately it's not a weather sealed lens.

    I always wondered why Leica never offered a adapter to use Pentax 645 lenses on the S camera as they do for Mamiya 645 lenses. This always perplexed me. I do agree if Pentax offers adapters for Hassy, S and other MF manufacturers lenses, they are likely to increase their user base for the new camera.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    i've said this before, but if Sony were to put their A7R business end in a "back" they would offer something quite similar to the IQ250: same sensor/pixel size, articulated LCD with mag focus, live view, live exposure with histogram. Hard to imagine the price of that would get to even $5k
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Bravo, jagsiva...bravo!

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Back to beauty pagent contestants - she has my vote



    And if someone would make a full frame 6 x 6 sensor I would mortgage my house in a heartbeat.
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Maybe when a long post trashing Phase and Leaf elicits a "Bravo!" it's time to give this subject a rest.

    How about concentrating on trashing the Las Vegas photographer and the taste of Americans for a while?

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Maybe when a long post trashing Phase and Leaf elicits a "Bravo!" it's time to give this subject a rest.

    How about concentrating on trashing the Las Vegas photographer and the taste of Americans for a while?
    My definition of trash talk is shooting my mouth off without first hand evidence or experience. In my case this is not the case. I'd be happy to share whatever you like. This has been my experience and I have not seen it improve despite multiple attempts on my part.

    For example, I had to open support ticket with Phase to find out the Achro back did not have LV. Below is the excerpt. Do you really think that is the service we should get on a product that was clearly advertised with this feature, not to mention that LV has been a cornerstone of IQ capability? Of course nobody from Denmark contacted me. I did reach out to their US sales guy and the response was that he did not have an answer for me and not really his department. I also posted here, but none of the often helpful dealers were able to shed any light on the matter either.

    I have similar emails from LEAF when I tried to upgrade my Aptus 12 to a Credo 80.

    So, no this is not trashing anyone, but simply stating the facts.


    01. Aug 2013 14:45
    Customer Support DK
    5. Finished

    Latest comment
    Hi Jag,

    Noted. Apologies you were not informed.

    Support


    01. Aug 2013 14:30

    2. Input from web

    *
    Latest comment
    Please do. This is simply not acceptable, and I'm sure he or she will be getting call from my dealer today as well.

    BTW, let them know that I am still waiting for LV over USB on my IQ180.

    Simply disgusted by your company's behaviour on this.

    Jag

    01. Aug 2013 14:23
    Customer Support DK
    5. Finished

    Latest comment
    Hi Jag,

    I will forward your concerns to the product manager.

    Support

    01. Aug 2013 14:13

    2. Input from web

    Latest comment
    This is mind numbing! Why is this not stated in any of your literature? LV is one of your major features with the IQ series!

    Jag

    01. Aug 2013 14:10
    Customer Support DK
    5. Finished
    *
    Latest comment
    Hi Jag,

    Live view is not possible with Achromatic - live view requires binning (Sensor +) which is not available on the Acho sensor.

    Support

    01. Aug 2013 13:36 - 2. Input from web
    *
    Latest comment
    Hi, I just received a new IQ260 Achromatic back and I don't see live view on the menu. Can you please let me know if I have missed something?

    I also have an IQ 180 and am familiar with your backs and how live view is used.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    I used the word "trash" as a verb: as in to bad-mouth or criticize. I think you'd agree that your post was critical, no? My point was more that this thread his sunk to the level that fans of one product or another say "bravo" when the "enemy's" product is criticized.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Notably this is, as far as I can tell, just rumor, and not actual product information. But sure, let's go ahead and take it at face value...

    First, I think it's great and a net positive for everyone that Pentax would do a nice crop-CMOS camera. MFD is a small sliver of the overall market and everyone in it (Phase, Leaf, Leica, Hassy, Pentax) benifit when more photographers hear about, try, or purchase medium format. The main path to growth for anyone in MFD is to increase the size of the pie by getting another 1% of the total market. As much as the narrative is more fun to enjoy when it's billed as P1 vs Hassy or P1/Leaf/Hassy vs Pentax the truth is the narrative is more [all MFD] vs "good enough".

    Second, this is nearly post-for-post the same conversation that takes place every time a new camera is released in the lower-end pricing range. Go back and read the posts here or any other forum when the 1D, 1Ds2, Mamiya ZD, D3X, 5D2, D800, or Pentax 645D was announced/rumored/shipped. Basically some people say the sky is falling. Yet Phase One has done *better* and better (revenue/profit/product-quality) every year since the financial crises.

    Notably to this thread this has included the years for which Pentax had offered a roughly $10k Pentax 645D at 40MP which was more or less the same sensor as in the H4D-40 and similar (at least in spec) to the p40+ and IQ140.

    Someone said earlier the only difference would be flash sync and wireless tethering and tech camera compatibility. Here's a continuation of that list in no particular order:
    Capture One compatibility (both for tethering and for raw processing where the algorithms have been fine tuned with great effort to get the most out of the camera), tethering experience and speed (not all "usb3" cameras will have the same actual tethering speed, a lot depends on the quality of the usb3 implementation and internal processing speed of the camera), color profiles, quality of the high ISO (specs are meaningless here, if/when hassy and Pentax ship a comparable camera we will have to compare the final resulting images at high ISO. And don't assume because one company has spec'd a higher ISO setting that they are getting better quality at high ISO). Availability in rental houses and rental studios as a main camera or backup to a personally owned camera, familiarity of digital techs and assistants in major and minor markets, quality and speed of professional support/repair in a particular market, quality and variety of made-for-digital lenses, look/feel of camera, burst speed/depth (very very few MF shooters need 3fps, but many want sustained shooting which has no buffer limit and want review of the last image to be immediate even when a long burst is shot), fast focus mask in the back (useful for fashion, but amazingly useful for sheimflug movements, double tap for 100% focus review on a specific area without having to first zoom then second scroll around, customizable highlight warning, variety of grid overlays including user movable guides, metadata entry for at-time-of-capture horizon/pitch for automatic batch correction of perspective and horizon, FireWire 800 in addition to usb3 (nice as a backup and for longer cable lengths including a manufacturer approved 33' cable), extremely high build quality with great history of durability and longevity (we have many h25 users still despite being 11 years old) compatibility with 3rd party cameras like the RZ, Contax, Fuji 680, etc with unique features like waiste level viewfinders and built in movements and dedicated fan bases.

    O, and yes, flash sync speed, wireless review/control, and tech/view camera compatibility .

    The point is the sky didn't fall before (quite the opposite actually) and isn't falling now. But we are, as quality-discerning photographers getting more and different options, and that's great news for everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Jon,

    Yes, thanks, I have held a Pentax 645D. Though it's a bit insulting that you'd think I have not.

    We could go back and forth on the details forever. For instance the live view on the *shipping* IQ250 is excellent, contrary to what "you've heard" (where did you hear this??). See our IQ250 Live View video as one example).

    But my point was not that the Pentax 645D II isn't going to be a good camera. I assume it will be a very nice camera, like it's predecessor. I'd also be happy to agree there are some features the current Pentax 645D has over comparable Phase/Leaf/Hassy offerings, and the same will be likely true of the Pentax 645D II.

    In other words I wasn't attacking your camera.

    My point was only that the sky is not falling for Phase/Leaf/Hassy and that, as counter intuitive as it is, having a lower-end product enter a market segment often helps the dominant players. Phase/Leaf sold more The Mamiya ZD didn't kill Phase One's P25 sales; if anything, they improved them. Leica will still sell lots of M bodies even though you can buy a Sony FF rangefinder with arguably "more features" for less money. Phase One IQ140 and Credo 40 sales weren't crushed by the Pentax 645D (mark 1); to the contrary, sales were up over that period.

    The theory, and in the last several years my practical experience has been, the more offerings they are for higher-end cameras the more people start researching all their options (they may hear about a ZD, or a Pentax, but they're going to spend at least a few hours checking out the relevant competition before they commit) and the more people start researching their options the more total people will end up finding a Phase One or Leaf is the best choice for them (some/many will also end up reaffirming their original plan to go with the ZD/Pentax/etc).

    And re: "i think Phase One is great for studio" - working for the largest dealer in the US does provide some insight here: about 50% of our customers at this point spend little or no time in a studio.

    you didn't insult my camera at all, i know it's a great camera and nothing in the world justifies the price your company is charging, but the market will say this in my opinion.
    i simply noted that you dismissed many feature of pentax as not important, and pointed out only the strong point of a phase one.
    in my opinion phase one is better for studio and use of tech cam,. for the rest is simply behind.
    in my opinion the pentax 645d2 compared to 645 offer a lot more for the money and is a proposal that could steal customer from other medium format brand.
    but they are my opinion.
    i live in italy and professional world here is falling down, rent are closing , advertisement is less, features, less, competition high, maybe america is still an eldorado with thousand of photographer investing 50 k for a double camera system, without lenses.
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    in my opinion for example pentax cannot charge the price they are charging for new lenses, and they are shooting on their foot for this.
    they could charge much less, and attract customer.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    You people have a point on the price of the excretable DF body. Going through DF shutters like water we're on the point of having to buy a second DF just to have while we send the other for repair. We were playing with the idea of switching to the D800, with custom ICC profiles the colour was practically the same but the 2:3 sensor works against us. We end up losing too many megapixels at the sides. This however would give us the bigger chip at a correct ratio, more megapixels and we could buy two for the price we would sell the present setup and what we would have spent on the new DF body. I think I would be amiss not to be looking at it.

    How is tethering done with the 645D? Does anyone know what the shutter rating is on it?

    hi


    that 0s a mother point. with phase a double system camera, with one body as back up, will cost 65k, against 20....
    tethering is madre thorugh a program, then you can auto import in lightroon et voila...you can even remote control, even if I'm not sure of this but it should be...i personally use a wifi card in the 2 slots not the same.probaly with usb 3 the tethering will be faster and better

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I used the word "trash" as a verb: as in to bad-mouth or criticize. I think you'd agree that your post was critical, no? My point was more that this thread his sunk to the level that fans of one product or another say "bravo" when the "enemy's" product is criticized.
    Yes, I am critical because as a customer, I expect a baseline level of service and business practice, and when that is not there, I am entitled to make my case.

    I am no enemy of Phase, I have spent a lot of money with them, and I simply don't have the time for creating and managing any more enemies. My only request is that you please do not dismiss what I have said as another case of "sour grapes", I have been through this saga and spent my money on it. My experience with Phase on the Achro, and my experience with Leaf on the upgrade were both well outside acceptable consumer protection practices in my jurisdiction, and if I had the time or patience, I would have pursued the issue further. Moreover, I felt that my dealer was stuck in the middle of this and felt I owed him something. Please extend me the courtesy of understanding my position that there are no friends or enemies beyond the economic transaction in question.

    I don't know Pentax, I have never used their equipment. As such, I did not claim to know anything about their upcoming camera. My only take on the new camera is that companies like Ricoh and Sony can only bring a level of maturity, stability, predictability and scale to this business.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    It was going to be one of my first options Doug. Problem is that Live View with our Aptus II is just not good enough for consistent accurate (close to) macro distance focusing. From our testing AF gets sharper results pretty much every time. Mainly due to the lag with the LV. What is the price of your camera? Close focus distance? Can it be triggered electronically? I'm willing to change my mind. We blew through our DF+ new shutter (they put the DF+ shutter rated for 100K in our DF last time) in 7 months, i.e. just a month after the warranty was up. If we go for a manual focus solution it has to be easy to use across multiple workers and thousands of pages per day. I'm worried about consistency of focus between photographers and books in a fast paced environment.
    We are pretty far OT.

    Shoot me an email and I'll send you all the details on Tuesday. But in short: expensive, up to 2:1 magnification with no focus slippage, yes, and 1-million release warranty, and our (separate but compatible) copy stations are all built around the premise that the book should be raised to the same plane of focus which means you only focus the camera once per project.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    I'm proposing Pentax to come with a mirrorless 645 ASAP. Imagine the possibilities! Eduardo.
    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i've said this before, but if Sony were to put their A7R business end in a "back" they would offer something quite similar to the IQ250: same sensor/pixel size, articulated LCD with mag focus, live view, live exposure with histogram. Hard to imagine the price of that would get to even $5k

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    I see it as a "very possible" game changer. All the new features in this camera (body & sensor) are very appealling to dslr users. The price is almost sirensong-like. If there is a way to increase sales it must come from dslr users. A huge proportion of hi-end dslr users came from MF in the first place I think that even P1 and Hasselblad can't ignore this fact. Eduardo.
    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    I don't see the 645DII as a game changer anymore than the 645D was. The 645D uses the same sensor as the Hasselblad 40MP and an equivalent Kodak sensor to that used in the Leica and those companies don’t appear to have been impacted to any large extent. Sure it may have caused some pricing pressure, but not as much as the Nikon 800 (IMHO). I love my 645D, but lenses, system and support continue to be an issue for Pentax, most especially in the US. I'm not particularly tempted by the 645DII at this point, other than higher ISO it doesn't offer much that is important to me.

    As to appearance, none of the MF cameras is something I would display as art (well, maybe a tech cam). I really liked the appearance of the Pentax 645 film cameras and found the softer, wider shape of the 645D a bit of a disappointment – something like a 645N that had been eating too many doughnuts.

    I like the appearance of the Sony A7 - no curves, angular - very crystalline.

    Tom

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    game changer?
    .. yes, i'd give it 10 to 35 odds ..

    shake up P1 ? (as in reality check) ?
    .. their choice

    vote with my money ..
    not yet!

    come on guys .. there is in nothing above that we haven't known .. we just kept quiet about it

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    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Why some people are considering the Pentax 645D a lower end camera?
    Some time ago Hasselblad was everyones dream. Mamiya and Pentax were the Japanese cheaper options in the market, but not lower end cameras!
    Now all of the sudden Mamiya is superior. Explain why?

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Wow!

    Some legitimate criticism based on experience, but holy moly some of it is really reaching. The vitriol is palatable like someone killed your dog or something

    Hey, we all select our tools for the job at hand, and that process is a mix of experience, logic, finances, and a wee bit of desire

    All kidding aside, the Pentax looks to be a fine tool. However, not a tool suited to everyone.

    Frankly, I cannot recall any camera system I bought into for the camera alone. Lenses first, camera second. Sometimes one even puts up with a lesser camera because the lenses are so good.

    Sometimes people either do not have the money, or they simply do not want to spend more than needed even if they do have the money. After retiring, I have sympathy for both points of view.

    If one doesn't have the ability, need or the desire to buy Phase One, or Leica or Hasselblad … or if one of them left a bad taste in your mouth, the solution is simple … don't buy it.

    Every negative point can be countered by those who had a different experience … which makes for bad blood, and numbered lists of grievances answered by laundry lists of positives.

    - Marc
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I'm serious here---I'd like to see how the Pentax 645D II would be as a converted IR camera. That's IR with live view. That's huge. Graham? You got room in that camera cart land rover ...
    Hmm, that would be interesting! LV for IR would rock. That said, with my current setup it just means shooting 2 or 3 insurance shots for focus or using older lenses with IR focus indication.

    The 645 II will be a welcome addition to the MF scene, just as it's well liked predecessor was. I just hope that Pentax USA decide that they want to support it here.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 16th February 2014 at 12:49.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    johnnygoesdigital,

    The S may have sealing, but using your fingertips to hold that camera...
    Sorry but I don't understand your meaning. Please can you explain?

    Regards,

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Rob,

    The form factor is such that when holding the camera with gloves on, the fingertips were the only positive contact I had with this camera. In comparison, the Hasselblad H has a battery grip I could wrap my hands around. What I did like about the S was that I could be covered in snow, and I didn't care about the camera.
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I used the word "trash" as a verb: as in to bad-mouth or criticize. I think you'd agree that your post was critical, no? My point was more that this thread his sunk to the level that fans of one product or another say "bravo" when the "enemy's" product is criticized.
    I understand your use of the word trash. However, using the word "enemy" is incorrect. Why is it when someone shares an opinion about products that they've actually used and accurately describe the experience, it's considered trashing? The fact that these experiences as it relates to MFD are somehow implied to condemn to the industry is not accurate. The dynamics of MFD have changed, and unless you're fully invested in a products lens line up, even brand loyalty can't help. Now on to the 645DII...

    So far the specs look good, but I would love LS lenses! There I said it!
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 16th February 2014 at 13:37.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Wow!

    Some legitimate criticism based on experience, but holy moly some of it is really reaching. The vitriol is palatable like someone killed your dog or something

    Hey, we all select our tools for the job at hand, and that process is a mix of experience, logic, finances, and a wee bit of desire

    All kidding aside, the Pentax looks to be a fine tool. However, not a tool suited to everyone.

    Frankly, I cannot recall any camera system I bought into for the camera alone. Lenses first, camera second. Sometimes one even puts up with a lesser camera because the lenses are so good.

    Sometimes people either do not have the money, or they simply do not want to spend more than needed even if they do have the money. After retiring, I have sympathy for both points of view.

    If one doesn't have the ability, need or the desire to buy Phase One, or Leica or Hasselblad … or if one of them left a bad taste in your mouth, the solution is simple … don't buy it.

    Every negative point can be countered by those who had a different experience … which makes for bad blood, and numbered lists of grievances answered by laundry lists of positives.

    - Marc
    Based on your criteria, you invest in lenses first and I think we can agree that prices on MFD lenses equate to a substantial part of that investment. If the second purchase is the camera itself, how can anyone begrudge another if after all that, it doesn't function as advertised? You've more or less committed to that brand with your lens investment. Some of us have followed your model, so let us vent a little because we can't be in the business of buying and selling photography equipment...we're here to sell photographs.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    The 645 II will be a welcome addition to the MF scene, just as it's well liked predecessor was. I just hope that Pentax USA decide that they want to support it here.
    Yup, more support from Pentax USA, including selling some of the existing FA lenses here, as is done in other markets around the world, would really help.

    Gary

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Yup, more support from Pentax USA, including selling some of the existing FA lenses here, as is done in other markets around the world, would really help.

    Gary
    Agree with all you wrote. As well intentioned Ricoh/Pentax in Japan is, Pentax USA is unfortunately a different entity and nothing like their former self who would be attentive to the needs of both the general consumer and the pro's they supported. I've had first hand experience with them for many years both before an after all the acquisitions.

    All I can say is Pentax USA is the very weak link in chain, especially when it comes to supporting their MF products. They need to wake up and smell the roses if things are really going to take off (relatively speaking), and people have confidence they will have someone to turn to if they run into a problem after spending $10,000 and more. This unfortunately hasn't been the case with the 645D for the most part.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Based on your criteria, you invest in lenses first and I think we can agree that prices on MFD lenses equate to a substantial part of that investment. If the second purchase is the camera itself, how can anyone begrudge another if after all that, it doesn't function as advertised? You've more or less committed to that brand with your lens investment. Some of us have followed your model, so let us vent a little because we can't be in the business of buying and selling photography equipment...we're here to sell photographs.
    Agreed. However, you have to investigate if the camera is then suitable before initially investing in all the optics. By suitable, I don't mean it has to be the latest greatest, do it all wonder cam.

    That also don't take into account some monumental failure of the camera and poor service afterward. That is inexcusable and well worth venting about.

    I've been lucky over the years I guess … 5 or 6 V cameras, 3 Mamiya RZ Pro-IIs, 2 Mamiya 645s, 2 Contax 645s, nine Hasselblad H cameras, and now the Leica S2P I currently use.

    A few hiccups along the way, but always quick and uncontentious service.

    Knock on wood

    - Marc

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Rob,

    The form factor is such that when holding the camera with gloves on, the fingertips were the only positive contact I had with this camera. In comparison, the Hasselblad H has a battery grip I could wrap my hands around. What I did like about the S was that I could be covered in snow, and I didn't care about the camera.
    Which is why I immediately add an adjustable hand strap to all my cameras. After you carry one of these bigger cameras around for a whole day, including any Pro 35mm DSLR, holding onto them gets difficult.

    - Marc

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Agree with all you wrote. As well intentioned Ricoh/Pentax in Japan is, Pentax USA is unfortunately a different entity and nothing like their former self who would be attentive to the needs of both the general consumer and the pro's they supported. I've had first hand experience with them for many years both before an after all the acquisitions.

    All I can say is Pentax USA is the very weak link in chain, especially when it comes to supporting their MF products. They need to wake up and smell the roses if things are really going to take off (relatively speaking), and people have confidence they will have someone to turn to if they run into a problem after spending $10,000 and more. This unfortunately hasn't been the case with the 645D for the most part.

    Dave (D&A)
    Hi Dave. What, if anything, do you think current owners of the 645D can do to encourage Pentax USA to move in this direction? Do you think it would be helpful for us to contact them? If so, who in Pentax USA would be the best person for us to contact?

    Gary

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    What, if anything, do you think current owners of the 645D can do to encourage Pentax USA to move in this direction? ....
    Gary
    Buy the Pentax 645D II. And then buy two of everything.


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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    My point was only that the sky is not falling for Phase/Leaf/Hassy and that, as counter intuitive as it is, having a lower-end product enter a market segment often helps the dominant players.
    I'm sure if the Pentax takes off Doug, you'll be the first dealership flying the Pentax flag.

    Can we all not play nice and respect each others choice based on performance/user suitability rather than how much we paid?
    Last edited by gazwas; 16th February 2014 at 17:24.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I'm sure if the Pentax takes off Doug, you'll be the first dealership flying the Pentax flag.

    Can we all not play nice and respect each others choice based on performance/user suitability rather than how much we payed?
    No disrespect was meant by my phrasing - as I've said several times in this thread alone I think the Pentax is a fine camera and I suspect the second iteration will be as well. I only meant on spectrum of options it's at the lower end of pricing.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    H5D has weather sealing.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    No matter how well she performs in bed---she's still ugly. Well, maybe with the lights off...

    We're just being tongue in cheek fun here and it doesn't matter except where the Pentax performs (paper bag handy or lights out). I'm serious here---I'd like to see how the Pentax 645D II would be as a converted IR camera. That's IR with live view. That's huge. Graham? You got room in that camera cart land rover ...
    Hi going down the IR road -- does Pentex have an adapter for Mamiya lens?
    This sound cooooool.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    ..............I always wondered why Leica never offered a adapter to use Pentax 645 lenses on the S camera as they do for Mamiya 645 lenses. ............
    Dave (D&A)
    Interestingly they do offer an adapter for Pentax 67 lenses.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I used the word "trash" as a verb: as in to bad-mouth or criticize. I think you'd agree that your post was critical, no? My point was more that this thread his sunk to the level that fans of one product or another say "bravo" when the "enemy's" product is criticized.
    I believe your are mis- categorizing jagsiva's post, “trash” as a verb or noun, is not appropriate. Reading his post, there are no undue verbs, or adjectives.

    I own Phase equipment; happen to be happy with it. Yet I certainly want to know about other’s experience ie. Achromatic back. I don’t see one critical word about any brand other than what jagsiva owns.

    My experiences with Phase has been limited, but all good, I happen to have a great Dealer in Capture Integration, which as noted in many many post, is at least 50% of the satisfaction equation, in making these decisions, and working out problems.

    Let’s not define personal experiences into easy to digest categories such as “fanboy”, enemy etc. Then say we are at that level.

    There are some good posts here without polarizing people into convenient camps.

    I am interested whatever new equipment is introduced, and the opinions of it. As far as the Pentex is concerned, I have seen great images from some of our members, and know some people who own the 645D, we hang out together sometimes, we don’t compare systems, we compare images.

    My 2 cents
    Last edited by alajuela; 16th February 2014 at 17:56.
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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    Hi going down the IR road -- does Pentex have an adapter for Mamiya lens?
    No, because the Pentax 645 has a longer flange distance than the Mamiya 645, i.e. you cannot focus a Mamiya lens to infinity on a Pentax, even if the adapter had zero thickness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fotografz View Post
    Pentax should pull a Leica and offer fully operational H mount, Contax 645 mount, and … (he, he) … Leica S mount adapters.
    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I do agree if Pentax offers adapters for Hassy, S and other MF manufacturers lenses, they are likely to increase their user base for the new camera.
    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    If Pentax 645 II comes up with Leica S and Hasselblad H adapters, it will be a game changer!
    All these comments miss the (same) technical point. Just as Mamiya lenses won't focus to infinity on a Pentax, neither will Leica S lenses focus to infinity on a Pentax - or on any other MF SLR camera, in fact.

    But that is precisely what makes the Leica S the ultimate lens whore for other manufacturer's lenses. (And I mean that as a good thing! )
    For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I always wondered why Leica never offered a adapter to use Pentax 645 lenses on the S camera as they do for Mamiya 645 lenses. This always perplexed me.
    - that is indeed doable. I don't understand either why Leica haven't done it. Maybe it's just a case of "haven't done it....yet".

    Ray
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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by pozzello View Post
    And if someone would make a full frame 6 x 6 sensor I would mortgage my house in a heartbeat.
    I wouldn't mortgage my house for one, but I might sell a kidney....only if it would fit on a Hassy V body.

    Gary
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Buy the Pentax 645D II. And then buy two of everything.

    Why didn't I think of that? I'll discuss this plan with my wife tonight.

    Gary

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    Interestingly they do offer an adapter for Pentax 67 lenses.
    That's what is perplexing. If anything, I would have thought Leica would have first made an adapter to use Pentax 645 lenses on their S camera rather than an adapter for Pentax 67 lenses...if for not other reason, the size of 645 lenses is more appropriate for the S body. It's a wild guess but maybe Leica sort of looked at the Pentax 645 system with the newly introduced 645D and thought maybe Pentax 645 lenses or the system as a whole would be seen as "the medium format digital competition. This is in contrast to Pentax 67 lenses which offered no threat (so to speak) in any way to the Leica S system.

    Dave (D&A)

  48. #98
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Hi Dave. What, if anything, do you think current owners of the 645D can do to encourage Pentax USA to move in this direction? Do you think it would be helpful for us to contact them? If so, who in Pentax USA would be the best person for us to contact?

    Gary
    Gary, just months prior to the 645D body being released for sale, is when my final of many formal working relation contacts within Pentax USA ended. Even my fairly recent causal contact has left prior to the fall of 2013. I may re-establish something in the near future but I first want to see what develops while they are still reorganizing. In the meantime, any correspondence we might send to them with regards to their working more closely with the growing numbers of 645 D and 645D II users (once the camera is released), couldn't hurt. As the saying goes, strength in numbers.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    I look at the previous 'regulars' who carried the P1 flag real high and they are no longer users of P1 gear- of course for 'very good reasons'.

    LOL

    When photography went digital the die was cast. People HAD to pay for bleeding edge smoke and mirrors for a long time AND put up with 4th rate service from little cottage industry companies..

    Party is OVER folks - in fact it was OVER when Sony delivered the killer kidney punch to P1 and Hasselblad via the D800

    all that remains is for Sony et al to quietly dismember what is left of a dead or dying market segment over the next few years..

    but hey guess what? your 60K system still makes the same quality shots it did when you bought it - that has to be good news right?

    LOL
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Can't sleep tonight for some reason, so peanut gallery will chime in
    I like this new camera from Pentax and all the new Sony chip camera action because of the live view.
    But, as you may have read in my other post, my Aptus recently suffered a fatal blow in the studio so over the last few weeks we were forced to do hundreds of product shots with the the D800e as well as canon's top offerings.
    We are not dummies at profiling, lighting, and C1 raw post. Let me get that out of the way immediately.
    Sorry, but the color and contrast of the images from the Sony chip were so far off the mark that it cost us over 100 addl. man hours in post to render acceptable images to our clients.
    ...and even then these were noticeably inferior to what they had been getting straight out of the Aptus box.

    I do not have an IQ250 or this new Pentax and perhaps it is far superior to the D800 chip, or perhaps it is the lenses or a combination; but if it is the same, then thanks but no thanks.

    I have seen the sample images so far from the iq250 but nothing strikes me as acceptable for product shooting or art repro (which is what we do mostly).
    Having said that, I will be one of the 1st legion to embrace the new cheaper tech if it can deliver in what we do in our studios. I have no dog in the hunt, and I would rather not spend the $$ that the current CCD tech costs.

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