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Thread: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

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    Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Hi guys,

    so the news is out. Pentax delivers the same sensor as P1 in weather sealed package, 3fps, 100k OR 200k iso, live view, movie mode (this is amazing!!) for a mere 10k USD!

    Does anyone also share the opinion that this puts the value proposition of P1 and Hassy to shame?

    The only remaining "advantage" left seems to be tech cam readiness and wifi tethering?

    I think this is truly game changing and revealing as to the incredible profit margins of P1...

    Personally I am thinking of just buying a 645II as I am pretty much sure that even on a trade-in of my aptus I will get another insane quote from P1...

    Regards

    -P

    SOURCE: http://translate.google.com/translat...14_635195.html

    VIA: photorumors.com
    Last edited by Paul Spinnler; 15th February 2014 at 13:43.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Choice is a wonderful thing. I don't think that just comparing using 'tech cam readiness & tethering' really sufficient otherwise we're back to the A7r/D800e rat hole.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Where did you get these specs from?
    Any link?

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by mbn View Post
    Where did you get these specs from?
    Any link?
    SOURCE: Google Translate

    It appears the iso range is not yet confirmed but either 100k or 200k!

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    From DC Watch:

    yCP+z645D 2014i‰¼Ìj‚ð‚Í‚¶‚ߐ·‚肾‚*‚³‚ñ‚̃ŠƒR[ƒCƒ[ƒWƒ“ƒO - ƒfƒWƒJƒ Watch

    The sensor is given as somewhere between 40–50MP. ISO up to 100K or 200K.

    It looks like the zoom lens will be smc PENTAX-FA645 33-55mm F4.5 AL.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+


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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Tilting LCD!

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Pentax is crazy that way. They feel that a modern DSLR should have the functions most modern DSLRs have. Preposterous.
    Will

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Just looks to good to be true!
    I'm more into the tech cam and don't even have/want a dslr body, but this pentax could help with the phase/hassy prices and features they are willing to offer in the future.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    The point is that P1 and Hassy only have their medium format market whereas Ricoh Pentax is a multi billion dollar conglomerate with some serious engineering, distribution and economies of scale advantage. No chance that P1, a formidable group of primarily well-paid danish engineers (yes, they own leaf and mamiya) can beat them in price/technology.

    I just hope that the market forces will drive P1 / Hassy prices down as people realize that they're essentially paying a car on top for the same sensor in a different enclosure.

    I am sure that P1 / H1 reps will quickly start to point out some marketing blabla advantages such as "superior color, smoother gradients, etc." but in the end it's the same sensor and people will hopefully see that and vote by skipping P1 / Hassy in favor of Pentax.

    One can only dream of what will happen when one Sony camera executive realizes that they have some formidable medium format capability in-house that cries to be leveraged... for a bombastic market entry!

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Well, I hope people buy the camera they want. Whether that is Pentax, Phase, or Hasselblad. Each person will decide the relative merits of each system. Yes, price is important, but not the only factor.
    Will

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Although I think Hasselblad will pitch their 'packaging' of Sony's sensor at $7.5 -$10k (?) less than Phase's 'packaging' of the same thing, I don't think either will reinvent their pricing structure as a result of the 645D v2. They've been operating the same 'reassuringly expensive' model for so long that they can't help but redo it at every product launch and watch the $ roll (trickle?) in. Sadly for them, like most economic models - especially where prosumer-grade electronics are concerned (even expensive ones) - it only has a finite lifespan - and this one is definitely entering old age. Justifying it ad nauseum by reference to custom sensor designs, R&D costs, dealer networks/relationships/postcards at Christmas yadayadayada is looking harder to do now more than it did even just a couple of years ago. The shonky DF+ body alone costs $6k, or $7.5k with the V-grip ... and yet Pentax can go all-in, sensor included plus a whole host of other stuff for $2.5k more. $2.5k - seriously?

    Of course this still leaves the tech camera segment to them - but hang on a sec, the first CMOS sensor they release that would actually be of real use to that segment of the market doesn't look too wide-angle friendly, and it's 33x44. It's clearly one for the DSLR brigade … who don't really need live view unless they want to shoot movies ... which they can't becasue it doesn't support it. $35k, a CMOS sensor, live view and no movies, doh! - there goes the chance to shoot some 8k UHDTV footage. Oh, hang on a second, it looks like the 645D v2 does - anyone want to buy my IQ250*? Who'd have thought, a MFDB beginning to look strangely dated within just a couple of weeks of launching. Interesting times indeed.

    Jim

    *I don't have one, so please don't ask.
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    The first Pentax 645D didn't seem to have much impact on Phase or Hasselblad. So I doubt that a 645 II will be much different. Pentax will continue to offer a lot for the money but I don't think it will change much how Phase or Hasselblad operate, offering higher end systems for much higher prices. People are willing to pay a premium for what is perceived as a better overall system or a system that is just a better choice for a photographer.

    At most, I think both Phase and Hassy offered lower entry feeder models/kits, and to that extent, more choices.

    While low price can be an obvious factor/advantage to some, it may not be the deciding factor to others (e.g., detachable back, tech camera use, studio view camera, tethering capability, rental access, current investment in lenses, workflow, etc.).

    I still think the Pentax 645D/II is an ugly camera, but for 10K I could grow to like it, maybe as a converted IR camera with live view....


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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    The first Pentax 645D didn't seem to have much impact on Phase or Hasselblad. So I doubt that a 645 II will be much different. Pentax will continue to offer a lot for the money but I don't think it will change much how Phase or Hasselblad operate, offering higher end systems for much higher prices. People are willing to pay a premium for what is perceived as a better overall system or a system that is just a better choice for a photographer.

    At most, I think both Phase and Hassy offered lower entry feeder models/kits, and to that extent, more choices.

    While low price can be an obvious factor/advantage to some, it may not be the deciding factor to others (e.g., detachable back, tech camera use, studio view camera, tethering capability, rental access, current investment in lenses, workflow, etc.).

    I still think the Pentx 645D/II is an ugly camera, but for 10K I could grow to like it, maybe as a converted IR camera with live view....

    Wow, a medium format IR camera with live view and movie mode!!

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Well, things get a lot more complicated. Sure I could buy a Pentax 645D II for $10K, but I could into the Hasselbad system for the same $10K with the HV (AKA as a Sony a99) which comes with a really neat hard case.
    Will

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I still think the Pentax 645D/II is an ugly camera..
    Compared to what? A Phase DF or a Hasselblad H? I don't think the MFD market is actually loaded with a lot of good-looking cameras.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    "Compared to what? A Phase DF or a Hasselblad H?"

    Yes.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Well, I thought the Hasselblad H was one of the ugliest cameras ever made. I think the Lunar beats it. But few others.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Well, I guess we could add some wood handles onto the Pentax 645D/II.

    But I wouldn't want to step on Hassy's toes.

    I'll settle on using a paper bag.


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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Ok, but would anyone seriously pay 25k USD premium for a marginally better "look"? Even this is debatable, the 645D II doesn't look too bad imho.

    25K difference! Phase one: lower your prices! iq250 for 13.9k might be a good way to start for example ...

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Right, Phase needs to match Pentax's prices.

    I haven't noticed, but are people demanding that Leica match Sony's?

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Compared to what? A Phase DF or a Hasselblad H? I don't think the MFD market is actually loaded with a lot of good-looking cameras.
    Well, in the ugly MFD camera competition, this one wins hands down.

    In the best looking beauty pageant, Leica S gets the crown, with the Contax 645 as runner up.

    - Marc

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Uh guys, regardless of your aesthetic judgement and your opinion on how camera companies should or shouldn't run their business, I think the new Pentax camera is really interesting. The devil is in the details and I would like to see how they implement dark frames. I really like they essentially let the photographer decide the high ISO. It will be interesting on what they do with the video. And that presents some interesting possibilities.
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Right, Phase needs to match Pentax's prices.

    I haven't noticed, but are people demanding that Leica match Sony's?
    In my cotton candy and unicorn dreams it does.

    Then I wake up in the real world with an empty wallet and a bunch of lumps on my scull from the wife's iron skillet.

    ( BTW, I think it is great that Pentax keeps the door open for folks to get into MFD without leaping to far into Dante's Inferno).

    - Marc
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I haven't noticed, but are people demanding that Leica match Sony's?
    Nah... they just buy an A7r instead (this is meant in jest). Hopefully Pentax/Ricoh will dot a couple other "i's", such as:

    1) faster CPU, providing a quick image review
    2) reducing the shutter vibration
    3) wider spread on the auto-focus points

    Also, Pentax / Ricoh would do well to introduce a new zoom lens comparable to the 30-90mm types that Hasselblad and Leica both offer. Pentax could also brush off the dust on the 150/2.8 and 200/4 AF's, give them a refresh (sort of like what Mamiya and Phase One did with the "D" lenses) and round out their lens line up. I'm looking at this 645D II as the Canon 1Ds Mark IV update that I never got from Canon. Not quite apples to apples, but close enough.
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ( BTW, I think it is great that Pentax keeps the door open for folks to get into MFD without leaping to far into Dante's Inferno).
    Especially for the Nikon D3X and Canon 1Ds Mark III crowd that was acclimated to $7999 pricing.
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, I thought the Hasselblad H was one of the ugliest cameras ever made. I think the Lunar beats it. But few others.
    People love their children, and rarely see them through the eyes of others

    This is one ugly kid, and diverting attention to someone else's ugly kid ain't working.

    - Marc
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    If Pentax steps up to the US dealer channel and ships this on time it could be a game changer. CI sells the 645D, I wonder if they will pick up this one?

    If it is a Sony Chip, I can't believe that Sony can make a separate 40mp chip for Pentax, plus the old 645D was at 39MP.

    Lots of things happened on the old 645D, it was 3 years or more late, shipped way after the P65+ was either announced or shipping. Pentax had very few US dealers and warranty support was a bit hard. Their lens lineup in the US was getting rather short. (the 35FA was no longer shipping in the US by the time Pentax finally shipped the 645D). They also stopped shipping the old 35-55 zoom (I can't remember the exact focal here) but it was a mid range zoom and thought to be very good. However both lenses were still sold in Japan for years. Something I never figured out.

    If they come out with a few new lenses on the wide end, this camera could do very well, especially if the chip is the same as the 250 Phase One. The range of that chip is pretty amazing!

    As for body beauty, I guess it's all up to the beholder, as I don't see the 645D or 645 2014 as ugly at all. I see a functional body with modern AF, modern tilting LCD, view view etc. Looks darn good to me. But I agree with Ken, I would love to see the old wooden handle from the 67, that would be cool.

    Paul C.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    People love their children, and rarely see them through the eyes of others

    This is one ugly kid, and diverting attention to someone else's ugly kid ain't working.

    - Marc
    So why bring it up...

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    Nah... they just buy an A7r instead (this is meant in jest). Hopefully Pentax/Ricoh will dot a couple other "i's", such as:

    1) faster CPU, providing a quick image review
    2) reducing the shutter vibration
    3) wider spread on the auto-focus points

    Also, Pentax / Ricoh would do well to introduce a new zoom lens comparable to the 30-90mm types that Hasselblad and Leica both offer. Pentax could also brush off the dust on the 150/2.8 and 200/4 AF's, give them a refresh (sort of like what Mamiya and Phase One did with the "D" lenses) and round out their lens line up. I'm looking at this 645D II as the Canon 1Ds Mark IV update that I never got from Canon. Not quite apples to apples, but close enough.
    Question:

    Does Pentax have any leaf shutter options?

    All three of the high priced systems have this in spades … Hasselblad, Phase One, Leica S. Sorry, can't live without that.

    However, even without leaf shutter lenses or ability, Pentax should pull a Leica and offer fully operational H mount, Contax 645 mount, and … (he, he) … Leica S mount adapters.

    Ugly or not, I'd grab one of these for $10K if I could use my Hasselblad 100/2.2 or a Contax 80/2, or a Hassy 30-90 zoom, or my Leica S120/2.5 Macro in full operational mode with exif info and all that.

    I think Pentax would not be able to keep up with demand.

    - Marc
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    1) faster CPU, providing a quick image review
    Supposedly, Pentax will do that.

    2) reducing the shutter vibration
    What problems do you have with your 645D? I have found the dampening very good.

    3) wider spread on the auto-focus points
    That would be nice. If they have live view, it would be interesting if they also have contrast detect AF with that.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    The shonky DF+ body alone costs $6k, or $7.5k with the V-grip ...
    Jim
    Wow....is the Phase One DF+ body really that expensive? I can certainly see paying more for a detachable MFDB, but $6k for the body with no back? That seems a little high. What are they thinking?

    Gary
    Happy just to have my 645D I.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, I thought the Hasselblad H was one of the ugliest cameras ever made. I think the Lunar beats it. But few others.
    Be careful Will!
    You've started a war my friend! There are many Hassie H fans around here and I am one of them. I think it's a beautiful camera.
    But I still like you

    Pramote
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, in the ugly MFD camera competition, this one wins hands down.
    In the best looking beauty pageant, Leica S gets the crown, with the Contax 645 as runner up.
    - Marc
    Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. I don't find the 645D ugly at all and it is supremely comfortable to hold and use.

    On this point however we do agree....the Leica S is the best looking camera by far.

    Gary

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Anyone investing in Medium format is investing in a system, not just a body. The Pentax might be a good camera but its likely irrelevant to anyone with an investment in Hassy or Mamiya mount lenses. And for pros, the price is secondary to system support.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Notably this is, as far as I can tell, just rumor, and not actual product information. But sure, let's go ahead and take it at face value...

    First, I think it's great and a net positive for everyone that Pentax would do a nice crop-CMOS camera. MFD is a small sliver of the overall market and everyone in it (Phase, Leaf, Leica, Hassy, Pentax) benifit when more photographers hear about, try, or purchase medium format. The main path to growth for anyone in MFD is to increase the size of the pie by getting another 1% of the total market. As much as the narrative is more fun to enjoy when it's billed as P1 vs Hassy or P1/Leaf/Hassy vs Pentax the truth is the narrative is more [all MFD] vs "good enough".

    Second, this is nearly post-for-post the same conversation that takes place every time a new camera is released in the lower-end pricing range. Go back and read the posts here or any other forum when the 1D, 1Ds2, Mamiya ZD, D3X, 5D2, D800, or Pentax 645D was announced/rumored/shipped. Basically some people say the sky is falling. Yet Phase One has done *better* and better (revenue/profit/product-quality) every year since the financial crises.

    Notably to this thread this has included the years for which Pentax had offered a roughly $10k Pentax 645D at 40MP which was more or less the same sensor as in the H4D-40 and similar (at least in spec) to the p40+ and IQ140.

    Someone said earlier the only difference would be flash sync and wireless tethering and tech camera compatibility. Here's a continuation of that list in no particular order:
    Capture One compatibility (both for tethering and for raw processing where the algorithms have been fine tuned with great effort to get the most out of the camera), tethering experience and speed (not all "usb3" cameras will have the same actual tethering speed, a lot depends on the quality of the usb3 implementation and internal processing speed of the camera), color profiles, quality of the high ISO (specs are meaningless here, if/when hassy and Pentax ship a comparable camera we will have to compare the final resulting images at high ISO. And don't assume because one company has spec'd a higher ISO setting that they are getting better quality at high ISO). Availability in rental houses and rental studios as a main camera or backup to a personally owned camera, familiarity of digital techs and assistants in major and minor markets, quality and speed of professional support/repair in a particular market, quality and variety of made-for-digital lenses, look/feel of camera, burst speed/depth (very very few MF shooters need 3fps, but many want sustained shooting which has no buffer limit and want review of the last image to be immediate even when a long burst is shot), fast focus mask in the back (useful for fashion, but amazingly useful for sheimflug movements, double tap for 100% focus review on a specific area without having to first zoom then second scroll around, customizable highlight warning, variety of grid overlays including user movable guides, metadata entry for at-time-of-capture horizon/pitch for automatic batch correction of perspective and horizon, FireWire 800 in addition to usb3 (nice as a backup and for longer cable lengths including a manufacturer approved 33' cable), extremely high build quality with great history of durability and longevity (we have many h25 users still despite being 11 years old) compatibility with 3rd party cameras like the RZ, Contax, Fuji 680, etc with unique features like waiste level viewfinders and built in movements and dedicated fan bases.

    O, and yes, flash sync speed, wireless review/control, and tech/view camera compatibility .

    The point is the sky didn't fall before (quite the opposite actually) and isn't falling now. But we are, as quality-discerning photographers getting more and different options, and that's great news for everyone.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 15th February 2014 at 16:43.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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  37. #37
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Be careful Will!
    You've started a war my friend! There are many Hassie H fans around here and I am one of them. I think it's a beautiful camera.
    But I still like you

    Pramote
    Well, I am much more interested in the beauty that comes out of your camera. I like everyone, regardless of the beauty of their equipment.

    Peace,

    Will
    Will

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    Angry Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, I am much more interested in the beauty that comes out of your camera. I like everyone, regardless of the beauty of their equipment.

    Peace,

    Will
    I would never have guessed this, judging from your childish remarks about the choice of camera equipment that others make.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Lol



    This one should fun. Bottom line is whatever the market decides. I think its great to have the competition out there.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Whoa, wait a minute, Guy. Is this the one----the one camera that you haven't owned yet? The Pentax 645D?

    The 645D II could be you. Well, maybe just for a few weeks.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    I need a buying rest. Lol

    My finger is sore from hitting buttons.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    I don't care how ugly the cameras are, I'll use anything that delivers the goods. I personally wouldn't call any of them ugly, with the notable exception of the Lunar/Stellar which are ugly in the same way a beautiful woman on "Jersey Shore/pick your glamour housewife show" is ugly when their personality is exposed.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    I think the new CMOS technology will make 135 users more likely to upgrade to a Pentax than before, as you won't need to sacrifice features as you had when going from CMOS to CCD. So in that aspect it could be a game changer.

    In the short term it won't affect Hassy and Phase, price difference was there already with the CCD version.

    As new photographers start with 135 systems it could be a change in the long term though. When MF digital was new the customers were MF film and large format film users. Today a photograper will already know how to make good results with 135 so making them wanting to upgrade to a $30+K MF system may be more difficult. Maybe Phase like Hassy will also try the luxury and status product path as an alternative in the future.

    The Pentax is priced about the same as a flagship Canon, so anyone wanting a fatter DSLR may go for the Pentax.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Notably this is, as far as I can tell, just rumor, and not actual product information. But sure, let's go ahead and take it at face value...

    First, I think it's great and a net positive for everyone that Pentax would do a nice crop-CMOS camera. MFD is a small sliver of the overall market and everyone in it (Phase, Leaf, Leica, Hassy, Pentax) benifit when more photographers hear about, try, or purchase medium format. The main path to growth for anyone in MFD is to increase the size of the pie by getting another 1% of the total market. As much as the narrative is more fun to enjoy when it's billed as P1 vs Hassy or P1/Leaf/Hassy vs Pentax the truth is the narrative is more [all MFD] vs "good enough".

    Second, this is nearly post-for-post the same conversation that takes place every time a new camera is released in the lower-end pricing range. Go back and read the posts here or any other forum when the 1D, 1Ds2, Mamiya ZD, D3X, 5D2, D800, or Pentax 645D was announced/rumored/shipped. Basically some people say the sky is falling. Yet Phase One has done *better* and better (revenue/profit/product-quality) every year since the financial crises.

    Notably to this thread this has included the years for which Pentax had offered a roughly $10k Pentax 645D at 40MP which was more or less the same sensor as in the H4D-40 and similar (at least in spec) to the p40+ and IQ140.

    Someone said earlier the only difference would be flash sync and wireless tethering and tech camera compatibility. Here's a continuation of that list in no particular order:
    Capture One compatibility (both for tethering and for raw processing where the algorithms have been fine tuned with great effort to get the most out of the camera), tethering experience and speed (not all "usb3" cameras will have the same actual tethering speed, a lot depends on the quality of the usb3 implementation and internal processing speed of the camera), color profiles, quality of the high ISO (specs are meaningless here, if/when hassy and Pentax ship a comparable camera we will have to compare the final resulting images at high ISO. And don't assume because one company has spec'd a higher ISO setting that they are getting better quality at high ISO). Availability in rental houses and rental studios as a main camera or backup to a personally owned camera, familiarity of digital techs and assistants in major and minor markets, quality and speed of professional support/repair in a particular market, quality and variety of made-for-digital lenses, look/feel of camera, burst speed/depth (very very few MF shooters need 3fps, but many want sustained shooting which has no buffer limit and want review of the last image to be immediate even when a long burst is shot), fast focus mask in the back (useful for fashion, but amazingly useful for sheimflug movements, double tap for 100% focus review on a specific area without having to first zoom then second scroll around, customizable highlight warning, variety of grid overlays including user movable guides, metadata entry for at-time-of-capture horizon/pitch for automatic batch correction of perspective and horizon, FireWire 800 in addition to usb3 (nice as a backup and for longer cable lengths including a manufacturer approved 33' cable), extremely high build quality with great history of durability and longevity (we have many h25 users still despite being 11 years old) compatibility with 3rd party cameras like the RZ, Contax, Fuji 680, etc with unique features like waiste level viewfinders and built in movements and dedicated fan bases.

    O, and yes, flash sync speed, wireless review/control, and tech/view camera compatibility .

    The point is the sky didn't fall before (quite the opposite actually) and isn't falling now. But we are, as quality-discerning photographers getting more and different options, and that's great news for everyone.
    as a pentax 645d user i can say that this is a great ads for phase one products, who show little knowledge of pentax product.
    iso performance is already great in pentax 645d compared to gassy or phase one, pentax has already showed that they can squeeze the best out of sony sensor with the best performing apec camera.
    second building. the 645d durability is simply amazing. for sure not behind the phase or gassy, who are not even weather sealed, but maybe i'm wrong
    tethering is already possible with pentax 645, and with double card you can tether also wifi, and sure the new model will have the usability with flu card.
    capture one is a good program but i don't see great difference with other raw converter. i find it less user-friendly and featured than other program.
    lenses the pentax has a great line up of lens. new are coming, but you can mount a 600 f 5,6 to a medium format camera. in my opinion if they come out with some new ls lenses they will close the gap even for studio shooters.
    the pentax 645d is a camera you can use like a d800 that produce outstanding images, surely not less than gassy or leica s. and cost less than a third.
    sure there will be rich men, and some very high end photographer who could buy a camera not even considering the price.but as a photographer i see the community of photography more and more in trouble as far as assignment, revenue and less photographer ready to fork out 35000 for a camera.
    in my opinion phase one is asking a price that is not justified by nothing. a
    when the 645d2 will come out.
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    the 645d ugly? when i walk with it every photographer watch it like it was a rolls royce.
    is amazing,for me but i agree everybody has its tastes.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Ugly camera? If that isn't an oxymoron, I don't know what is
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Notably this is, as far as I can tell, just rumor, and not actual product information. But sure, let's go ahead and take it at face value...

    First, I think it's great and a net positive for everyone that Pentax would do a nice crop-CMOS camera. MFD is a small sliver of the overall market and everyone in it (Phase, Leaf, Leica, Hassy, Pentax) benifit when more photographers hear about, try, or purchase medium format. The main path to growth for anyone in MFD is to increase the size of the pie by getting another 1% of the total market. As much as the narrative is more fun to enjoy when it's billed as P1 vs Hassy or P1/Leaf/Hassy vs Pentax the truth is the narrative is more [all MFD] vs "good enough".

    Second, this is nearly post-for-post the same conversation that takes place every time a new camera is released in the lower-end pricing range. Go back and read the posts here or any other forum when the 1D, 1Ds2, Mamiya ZD, D3X, 5D2, D800, or Pentax 645D was announced/rumored/shipped. Basically some people say the sky is falling. Yet Phase One has done *better* and better (revenue/profit/product-quality) every year since the financial crises.

    Notably to this thread this has included the years for which Pentax had offered a roughly $10k Pentax 645D at 40MP which was more or less the same sensor as in the H4D-40 and similar (at least in spec) to the p40+ and IQ140.

    Someone said earlier the only difference would be flash sync and wireless tethering and tech camera compatibility. Here's a continuation of that list in no particular order:
    Capture One compatibility (both for tethering and for raw processing where the algorithms have been fine tuned with great effort to get the most out of the camera), tethering experience and speed (not all "usb3" cameras will have the same actual tethering speed, a lot depends on the quality of the usb3 implementation and internal processing speed of the camera), color profiles, quality of the high ISO (specs are meaningless here, if/when hassy and Pentax ship a comparable camera we will have to compare the final resulting images at high ISO. And don't assume because one company has spec'd a higher ISO setting that they are getting better quality at high ISO). Availability in rental houses and rental studios as a main camera or backup to a personally owned camera, familiarity of digital techs and assistants in major and minor markets, quality and speed of professional support/repair in a particular market, quality and variety of made-for-digital lenses, look/feel of camera, burst speed/depth (very very few MF shooters need 3fps, but many want sustained shooting which has no buffer limit and want review of the last image to be immediate even when a long burst is shot), fast focus mask in the back (useful for fashion, but amazingly useful for sheimflug movements, double tap for 100% focus review on a specific area without having to first zoom then second scroll around, customizable highlight warning, variety of grid overlays including user movable guides, metadata entry for at-time-of-capture horizon/pitch for automatic batch correction of perspective and horizon, FireWire 800 in addition to usb3 (nice as a backup and for longer cable lengths including a manufacturer approved 33' cable), extremely high build quality with great history of durability and longevity (we have many h25 users still despite being 11 years old) compatibility with 3rd party cameras like the RZ, Contax, Fuji 680, etc with unique features like waiste level viewfinders and built in movements and dedicated fan bases.

    O, and yes, flash sync speed, wireless review/control, and tech/view camera compatibility .

    The point is the sky didn't fall before (quite the opposite actually) and isn't falling now. But we are, as quality-discerning photographers getting more and different options, and that's great news for everyone.
    1- tethering...pentax already has it ,and with flu card it will be possible to use remote control---
    2-capture one....pentax work with all the community of raw converter, personally i find capture one one of the less user friendly converter and poorly integrated with other editing software...so?
    3-building. you have never probably hold a pentax 645d. is built like a tank. and the viewfinder is amazing, better than leica s in my opinion.
    4-color profile. i have and produce color profile with a color checker. maybe i understood wrongly.

    pentax plus
    5- complete weather sealed system for wide angle.
    6-double slot card for back up or use wifi card to remote tethering and control
    7-small and cheap battery
    8 double tripod hole so you can create a l plate with small arca plate
    9- built like a k5...probably the best and most intuitive camera ever built
    10- af fine adjustment to check back and from focus ( don't know if phase one has this)
    11- first stabilize lens in format. a zoom like 35 95 is coming too.
    12- liveview mode usable to check focus, and probably video mode implemented ( from what i have seen the live view of phase one is a gimmick)
    13-plenty of external control


    i think phase one is great for studio and retch camera, pentax is more an all around camera, who open possibility for wedding photographer and reportage photog also.
    and i think that 35000 for a camera when another manufacturer can produce and sell it for 10000 will shake a bit the market.

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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    If Pentax 645 II comes up with Leica S and Hasselblad H adapters, it will be a game changer!
    I don't think any of the MF cameras are ugly, including this Pentax 645 II.
    At least they are more beautiful than the ugliest, Mamiya RZ, my most favorite camera
    My point is I don't think the look of camera is matter. "Ugly women always get married".

    Pramote
    Last edited by Landscapelover; 16th February 2014 at 06:47.

  49. #49
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    You people have a point on the price of the excretable DF body. Going through DF shutters like water we're on the point of having to buy a second DF just to have while we send the other for repair. We were playing with the idea of switching to the D800, with custom ICC profiles the colour was practically the same but the 2:3 sensor works against us. We end up losing too many megapixels at the sides. This however would give us the bigger chip at a correct ratio, more megapixels and we could buy two for the price we would sell the present setup and what we would have spent on the new DF body. I think I would be amiss not to be looking at it.

    How is tethering done with the 645D? Does anyone know what the shutter rating is on it?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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  50. #50
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    Re: Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

    The attitudes here border on passive/aggressive comments when talking about another's camera choice. I've had the Leica S, Phase DF, and several H models. The Pentax at least has a price point that's more realistic and weather sealed. Weather sealing is not rocket science and that one feature opens up so many more photographic opportunities than any other camera period! The S may have sealing, but using your fingertips to hold that camera doesn't instill confidence. The point is, whenever a new camera comes along that might actually have features and resolution that rivals most in certain areas the usual detractors wave their arms yelling look over here, look over here! Price point is the primary reason so many defend their camera purchases because they must have the best...no matter how obsolete!
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