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Thread: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

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    Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    I want to acquire a wide angle lens to use on a Phase One DF, currently sporting a P45+, but in the near future an IQ260. I'm wondering what people are using. I use Capture One Pro so a lens that can be corrected/corrected additionally in software would be nice.

    It would also be nice if it could get wet without failing too.

    thanks in advance,
    garry.
    Last edited by postman; 24th February 2014 at 11:32. Reason: typo!

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    Member Nutcracker's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    The new SK 28mm for P1 is a very nice one.
    If you are not satisfied with it, there is the alternative of taking your back off the P1DF, mounting it on Alpa/Arca etc with HR32!

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by postman View Post
    I want to acquire a wide angle lens to use on a Phase One DF, currently sporting a P45+, but in the near future an IQ260. I'm wondering what people are using. I use Capture One Pro so a lens that can be corrected/corrected additionally in software would be nice.

    It would also be nice if it could get wet without failing too.

    thanks in advance,
    garry.
    Here is a link to some tests that we shot of a scene in Central Park that compares the Rodenstock 32HR , 28mmLS LS on Phase One DF and 28mm D on Phase One DF.

    Digital Transitions 28mm LS/D and 32HR Tests

    Lance
    LANCE SCHAD - Digital Transitions - Phase One,Mamiya | Leaf,Arca-Swiss,Cambo, Profoto
    direct/cell:610-496-5586 office:877-367-8537x224
    http://www.digitaltransitions.com email:[email protected]

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    @Nutcracker Thanks for the pointer. I'll check it out. I am already an Arca RM3DI and view camera user. Sometimes though I need to move a little faster and in environments that make the Arca impractical.

    @Lance I'll checkout the tests.. thanks for that link.

    I have heard bad things about the Leaf Shutters and long term reliability. Long term being greater than 1 year.

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    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Hi

    I don't know how wide you want to go. You did say DF so I am not assuming a tech camera -- I have the 28 Schneider, but I really like the the Phase 45D.

    If tech, then I have thought about the 23 - I have the 28 Rodi, but again the one I really like the best is the 40HR. The 40 give you ability to shift - the 23 and 28 - not so much. The 32 is supposed to be great, but having the 40 was to close in focal lenght and also the 32, being so big, and I have heard "delicate" I opted for the 28hr.

    Thanks

    Phil

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    The performance of either the LS or non LS 28mm is about the same, as there is no difference to the layout of the elements.

    On a P45+ with the 1:1 crop, I found the 28mm (Mamiya version but again the same lens), ok from F11 to F16. I am always looking for a wide view that is corner to corner sharp, with little smearing/noise. The 28mm will smear pretty badly from F4.5 to F8 and then it starts to get better, again this is on the P45+.

    On a 60MP back, the 28 shows that it really can't keep up at all until around F14 to the corners. What was soft in the F4.5 to F8 range on a P45+ is now smeared and worthless, requiring a crop to about a 1:3 size. As has been said many times, the 28mm on a full frame back is a great 35mm lens. And I agree with that. Also if you take it much past F16 you start to get diffraction softness so it's a very narrow range.

    The lens is not filter friendly, not sure if you are a filter user. Requires some form of a modified Lee or Cokin holder unless Phase One did ship the custom filter holder that was mentioned at Photokina 2 years also. I have never seen any mention of it so not sure if it ever became real. It looked like it was made by Lee and was similar to the SW150 mount they make for the Nikon 14-24. Looked like it would hold 2 filters.

    The DT comparison between the 28mm and 32 Rod is also pretty telling. It's worth looking at.

    As mentioned already, the 32mm Rod is the overall best performer, if you go tech, but it's very heavy, delicate, and of course expensive. Based on the results I looked at from the DT IQ1250 testing, the shots would have definitely benefited from having the CF installed and for that add another 1K or so.

    New the LS 28mm is cost to 4.5K last time I checked.

    I have the Rod 28mm, love it. Excellent lens only limited by the 70mm image circle and the built in vignetting device, which you hit on a full frame sensor at around 6mm of shift. The lens would easily go to 10mm maybe 12mm if Rodenstock had no placed this hard vignette edge inside the lens. Never will understand that.

    Paul C.
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    I like it. Yes the 32HR is better, but I guess I just wouldnt go so far as to call the corners of the 28's "worthless" Looks pretty good to me, and I just dont see a tech camera in my future. I do have a Sinar P2, but the DF is so much easier to deal with. And I would be using 80MP back probably.
    I would like to try this lens out someday (28LS as I assume its primary function for me will be arch interiors and the leaf shutter will be better for balancing lights. However, if all I can afford is the 28D that would be fine, I would just double expose and mask I guess)
    Also, why is the 32mm capture area smaller than the 28?? Shouldnt it be the other way around? Or did I miss something?
    Last edited by Egor; 25th February 2014 at 12:39.

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    32mm would be smaller than 28mm. Full frame to full frame no shift.

    PaulC

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Thanks Paul. I guess I just dont understand. If it was a 100mm lens, would not the leaves on the tree be larger than if shot with a 28mm lens? Thats my thinking anyway. All are full frame, no?

    In any case, its a minor thing. Just got an assignment that I would love this lens for (need the drama of extreme wide for a product shot) but also need big res as it will be a huge poster in the store.

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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    Also, why is the 32mm capture area smaller than the 28?? Shouldnt it be the other way around? Or did I miss something?
    It's just the framing that's different..

    Peter
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    Thanks Paul. I guess I just dont understand. If it was a 100mm lens, would not the leaves on the tree be larger than if shot with a 28mm lens? Thats my thinking anyway. All are full frame, no?

    In any case, its a minor thing. Just got an assignment that I would love this lens for (need the drama of extreme wide for a product shot) but also need big res as it will be a huge poster in the store.
    Actually now that I re-read it the image from the 32 would bring the leaves in closer. Glad that Peter mentioned the framing being different.

    Paul C

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    I'm seriously impressed with the M645 24/4 ULD fisheye, which of course needs to be "de-fished" in software for a normal rectilinear look. It's no longer available new but minty samples like mine turn up sometimes, and it's also the least expensive option under 35mm focal length.

    Ray

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Anyone have experience with Phase One D AF 35mm f/3.5? The 28mm's are probably a bit too wide for me.

    John

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    I use the Phase One AF D 35/3.5 and the 28mm too.

    The 35mm is convenient in so far as it will take filters but it's definitely a lens that has a reputation as being sample dependent and it is somewhat soft/smearing in the corners unless stopped down. Generally speaking a crop from a 28mm shot is better than a full frame from the 35mm in my experience but it depends on your usage. The 35mm is a more convenient size to pack in the bag too.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Graham,

    Thanks for your comments. When you say "stopped down" for 35/3.5, if stopped down to f/8 or f/11, do the corners clean-up satisfactorily. Comments in this thread seem to indicate that the 28 also needs to be stopped down for satisfactory corners. My usage will be landscapes with IQ260. My widest lens is currently LS 55/2.8, which I am very pleased with. However, something wider would be good.

    Thanks.

    John

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    I'd consider f/8 the absolute minimum for sharp corners and I'll use f/11 or f/16 if the corners matter. Of course, you are then already into the realms of diffraction, especially if you go any further. It's a trade off and unfortunately the 35 AF gets a bad rap due to comparisons to tech camera lens.

    Stopping down the 28mm for the corners is a reality also. However, if you're taking a crop equivalent to the view of a 30 or 35mm it isn't so important. That said, it's not always easy to think that way when composing.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    I actually like the Phase 35mm D lens--it's a focal length that I like better than the 28mm. It's a good lens, but not a stellar lens. Does well stopped down. If I want better, I know I need to bring out the technical camera. I find myself not using the Phase 35mm D nearly as often now.

    ken

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    I liked the 35mm AF A LOT until I upgraded to the IQ 160. It's z compact lens and will easily take a 2 stack of 77mm filters.

    Personally I don't think there is any difference between the D version and older Mamiya AF. Versions, as number of elements and groups are the same.

    Definitely a lot of sample variation.

    For sure I would try to rent both of these lenses, the 35 and 28mm and see what your results show you.

    The 60mp sensor of the the 260 will not be very forgiving with either.


    Paul C
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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    The main problem with the 35/3.5 lens - which is optically unchanged (bar coatings) from the first "C" version in the late 1970s, through the "N" version of the mid-1980s and the "AF" version of the late 1990s, and also probably the "D" version of the late 2000s - is field curvature. In a shot of a 3-d landscape, you can actually see the "plane" of focus start off on distant central objects and then bend back towards closer objects off-axis. The only way to get decent focus on distant things off-axis is through depth of field i.e. stopping down a lot, as Graham says.

    Ray

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    I (often) use a Rodenstock 35mm on an Arca Swiss RM3Di, but there are times when carrying the Arca and ALL that goes with it, especially in weather, when the Arca is less practical than the DF and suitable lenses. Almost of all the work for this lens would be Landscapes. Mostly away from the vehicle. I currently use a Lee Filter set ( mostly graduated filters ) and a bunch of step-down/up adapters. I currently also use a 77mm variable ND from Singh-Ray.

    From what people have written ( and thank-you to everybody who responded ) I have a few choices and a lot of compromises. I'll contact Calumet here in the Bay Area to see what they have to rent.

    Is there anything from another manufacturer that I can use on the Phase One DF that might give me good quality? I am not familiar with what is available in terms of adapters.


    Thanks,
    garry.

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by postman View Post
    Is there anything from another manufacturer that I can use on the Phase One DF that might give me good quality? I am not familiar with what is available in terms of adapters.
    There are adapters for the lenses of several 6x6 and 6x7 systems - Hasselblad, Bronica, Pentax, Pentacon/Kiev -, but the problem is that none of them have a rectilinear lens shorter than 40mm. There are some adaptable 30mm fisheyes for 6x6, but if I were going the de-fishing route I would definitely prefer the Mamiya 24mm that I've discussed above.

    One of the older Pentax 645 35mm variants is said to be really good, and there's a new 25mm lens; on paper, there is enough flange distance difference (over 7mm) to adapt them onto the Mamiya/Phase body and still reach infinity focus, but I've never seen such an adapter being made available.

    Ray

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    I use the Mamiya 35mm on the Credo 40. As I am mostly a portrait guy, this is just about wide enough for my environmental portrait needs. Obviously, you'll get a much wider FoV with a 60MP sensor.

    With the Credo 40, I have noticed that this lens has extremely sharp center (Comparable to the 80mm LS, one of the sharpest lenses out there) and somewhat soft corners. The corners do get better when stopped down to f/87-f/11, but not as sharp as the center. However, in Capture One Pro, there's a tool to increase only the corner sharpness. With this, you can get the corners to look as good as the center.

    Here's a full size sample that I shot for your reference. Shot with a 3 stop Lee grad ND on the lens.

    http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3803/1...0b8f738b_k.jpg
    Last edited by synn; 3rd March 2014 at 20:41.
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    What everyone said above - basically it's difficult with any medium format lens to create great wide/super-wide lenses for a full 645 sensor. The 35 D I have only seems to differ from the AF version I used to have by a silver ring and nice Phase One lens wrap. I hear that build/test tolerances were better but that might just be marketing BS.

    One of my favorite and most printed images was taken with the 35 D on a wet day with my DF/IQ160 and whilst not technically perfect in the corners it doesn't matter a jot because (a) I had the lens with me, (b) the composition worked and (c) I was able to polarize the lens for wet foliage which was something that would've ruined the same shot with the 28mm.

    Another wide I like is the 45mm too. Another Mamiya vintage lens that isn't half bad in reality. (55LS smokes them all though).

    I think that many of us pine for Schneider to help Mamiya/Phase with a great super wide and/or tilt/shift wide. I would raid my piggy bank for one of those and probably use my DF body more if a great wide existed that was even 90% as good as a tech wide. (Ok, that's unfair as they probably ARE 90+% as good - make it 95%!)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    One option that hasn't been mentioned so far would be to get hold of the Mamiya 24mm fisheye and de-fish your shots.

    I've found the image quality with that lens to be excellent.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    As Ray has noted these two things in his posts above:

    1. --->>>"The main problem with the 35/3.5 lens - which is optically unchanged (bar coatings) from the first "C" version in the late 1970s, through the "N" version of the mid-1980s and the "AF" version of the late 1990s, and also probably the "D" version of the late 2000s - is field curvature. In a shot of a 3-d landscape, you can actually see the "plane" of focus start off on distant central objects and then bend back towards closer objects off-axis. The only way to get decent focus on distant things off-axis is through depth of field i.e. stopping down a lot, as Graham says.<<<

    2.--->>>"One of the older Pentax 645 35mm variants is said to be really good, and there's a new 25mm lens; on paper, there is enough flange distance difference (over 7mm) to adapt them onto the Mamiya/Phase body and still reach infinity focus, but I've never seen such an adapter being made available.<<<

    Therein lies the problem of adapting the Pentax FA 35mm f3.5 645 lens. It too exhibits a health dose of field curvature when focused on distant subjects and behave in much the manner as described above for the Mamiya 35mm f3.5 lens. Other than that it's extremely sharp centrally and across the frame when lens is well stopped down.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    One option that hasn't been mentioned so far would be to get hold of the Mamiya 24mm fisheye and de-fish your shots.

    I've found the image quality with that lens to be excellent.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
    Umm, I mentioned de-fishing the 24mm twice, before you did! Posts #12 and #21.

    I agree, superb lens.

    Ray

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    As Ray has noted these two things in his posts above:

    1. --->>>"The main problem with the 35/3.5 lens - which is optically unchanged (bar coatings) from the first "C" version in the late 1970s, through the "N" version of the mid-1980s and the "AF" version of the late 1990s, and also probably the "D" version of the late 2000s - is field curvature. In a shot of a 3-d landscape, you can actually see the "plane" of focus start off on distant central objects and then bend back towards closer objects off-axis. The only way to get decent focus on distant things off-axis is through depth of field i.e. stopping down a lot, as Graham says.<<<

    2.--->>>"One of the older Pentax 645 35mm variants is said to be really good, and there's a new 25mm lens; on paper, there is enough flange distance difference (over 7mm) to adapt them onto the Mamiya/Phase body and still reach infinity focus, but I've never seen such an adapter being made available.<<<

    Therein lies the problem of adapting the Pentax FA 35mm f3.5 645 lens. It too exhibits a health dose of field curvature when focused on distant subjects and behave in much the manner as described above for the Mamiya 35mm f3.5 lens. Other than that it's extremely sharp centrally and across the frame when lens is well stopped down.

    Dave (D&A)
    Thanks for that additional info, Dave - useful to know. Yeah, I remember now that it's the FA version that is supposed to be best. Links like this sing its praises.

    Interestingly, down at the end of that page he addresses the practicalities of adapting it (permanently) to the Mamiya mount: "I can see that it is feasible, but may require a minor mirror mod to the Mamiya body. It also entails the removal of the FA35's rear mount and it's not easy to disentangle the aperture and AF mechanism from the bits you need to discard. Wearing a donor Mamiya mount, the rear element needs to protrude beyond the flange to provide correct infinity focus... got close enough to see that it's a viable concept that I would have seen to completion had I stuck with the body".

    That all sounds very surprising: rather than insert a ring about 7.5 mm thick between P645 lens and M645 mount (70.87 mm and 63.3 mm flange distances respectively), he is talking about hacking off the back of the P645 lens and having its rear element protrude through the M645 flange, and modifying the Mamiya's mirror? Given the relative flange distances, that doesn't make sense to me. I'm going to email him for an explanation...

    Ray

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Umm, I mentioned de-fishing the 24mm twice, before you did! Posts #12 and #21.

    I agree, superb lens.

    Ray
    Oops, my sincere apologies. I rather stupidly just did a search for "24", and nothing came up, so I assumed it hadn't been mentioned. Should have searched for "24mm", or perhaps even better, not been so damn lazy as to not read the full thread!

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Hi

    I have several questions, how do you go about de-fishing the fisheye?
    What are the software options?
    Does it degrade the file?
    Do you do it in a raw converter or as a tiff?

    Thanks so much

    Phil

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Oops, my sincere apologies. I rather stupidly just did a search for "24", and nothing came up, so I assumed it hadn't been mentioned. Should have searched for "24mm", or perhaps even better, not been so damn lazy as to not read the full thread!

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
    No worries Gerald; I was tickled rather than annoyed.

    Ray
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    Hi

    I have several questions, how do you go about de-fishing the fisheye?
    What are the software options?
    Does it degrade the file?
    Do you do it in a raw converter or as a tiff?

    Thanks so much

    Phil
    Hi Phil,

    There are a few software options. I use Hugin, which is a nice interface to Panotools. This requires tiff/jpeg/png/hdr/exr input formats; not raw, unfortunately.

    Image quality in the centre is maintained; the de-fishing re-projection does tend to make the edges a bit less sharp (due to the relative lack of resolution in this area in the original fisheye projection). The original corners of the fisheye area are automatically cropped off anyway (if you choose; otherwise the image looks like a pincushion with curved black borders).

    There are a host of re-projection options that can be previewed and used; Rectilinear and Panini projections work well.

    Ray
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    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Hi Phil,

    There are a few software options. I use Hugin, which is a nice interface to Panotools. This requires tiff/jpeg/png/hdr/exr input formats; not raw, unfortunately.

    Image quality in the centre is maintained; the de-fishing re-projection does tend to make the edges a bit less sharp (due to the relative lack of resolution in this area in the original fisheye projection). The original corners of the fisheye area are automatically cropped off anyway (if you choose; otherwise the image looks like a pincushion with curved black borders).

    There are a host of re-projection options that can be previewed and used; Rectilinear and Panini projections work well.

    Ray

    Thanks Ray

    I have auto panogiga from Kolor, I assume then; that would work. Thanks so much, - Thinking if I could find the fish eye at good price, maybe it might be fun.

    Thanks again

    Phil

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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.



    Here's an example of defishing the 24mm.

    I don't do architectural or interiors photos; this was just a shot I had taken to document the completion of our home extension. I thought it would make a good example for this thread, as there are many demanding straight lines. I used Hugin to simultaneously defish and correct a tiny bit of camera tilt.

    The resulting field of view is ~ 90x90 degrees.



    Ray
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Hi Phil,

    There are a few software options. I use Hugin, which is a nice interface to Panotools. This requires tiff/jpeg/png/hdr/exr input formats; not raw, unfortunately.

    Image quality in the centre is maintained; the de-fishing re-projection does tend to make the edges a bit less sharp (due to the relative lack of resolution in this area in the original fisheye projection). The original corners of the fisheye area are automatically cropped off anyway (if you choose; otherwise the image looks like a pincushion with curved black borders).

    There are a host of re-projection options that can be previewed and used; Rectilinear and Panini projections work well.

    Ray
    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post


    Here's an example of defishing the 24mm.

    I don't do architectural or interiors photos; this was just a shot I had taken to document the completion of our home extension. I thought it would make a good example for this thread, as there are many demanding straight lines. I used Hugin to simultaneously defish and correct a tiny bit of camera tilt.

    The resulting field of view is ~ 90x90 degrees.



    Ray
    Very nice - Hugin does a good job, Kolor Auto Pano I hope is as good. -- BTW nice addition to your home - lots of sunlight

    Phil

  35. #35
    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Wide Angle for Phase One DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    -- BTW nice addition to your home - lots of sunlight
    Phil
    That's the theory anyway, Phil. In practice, we are rather starved of sunlight here on the west coast of Ireland...

    Ray

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