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Thread: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

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    Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I have been rethinking my gear for a couple of months now. Recently got the Sony A7, very happy with its colors and overall look. Sold the M9 as I got tired of focus issues with rangefinder and lens calibration.

    Now on to the S2: I have the S2 + 35/70/120/180 lenses. I don't use them much (size and weight issues), but when I do, the colors and rendering are just amazing to my eyes. Generally I take the S2 with me once or twice a year when I go on road trips.

    I like to take landscape photos and clearly my skill is way below what is needed to take advantage of the S2 to the fullest. Having said that, I find its output very pleasing and more "organic" if it makes sense.

    I am thinking of selling the S2 and lenses and getting the Sony A7R for use existing APO R-100MM, Summilux-R 80MM and some other older R lenses. Primary reason to lighten the load. No financial reason to sell at this point.

    FWIW, I got the S2 relatively cheap and it underwent a complete overhaul in Solms Germany last year, free of cost. Lenses were also bought almost at 50% off retail in as new condition.

    I am not a pro and do not make a living from photography.

    Decision 1: Keep the S2 and lenses, even though it gets marginal usage and enjoy the system for next few years.

    Decision 2: Sell S2 system and get the A7R to use with Leica R lenses and hope that it can render pretty much close to S2's output (not resolution, but overall "look")

    Thoughts welcome...

    -- Eeraj

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I'd absolutely keep the S2 and work on using it more. Push yourself to gain the skills to get the most out of it. I think you'll be much happier in the end.

    Robb
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I have been using A7R with Leica R lenses and thinking about upgrading to S system.
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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I don't see a good reason to sell the S2. If you feel you are not getting the most out of the S2, you may find the same thing with the a7r compared with the a7.

    If you really want the a7r, could you sell your least-used S lens and use that to purchase the a7r?

    Dave
    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I would do this since I already have myself but go buy the A7r go out run a test. Run the lens equivalents that you already have . Shoot them at 5.6 so it's not so much lens dependent but more sensor and processing. Make the absolute best image you can make with processing than compare the images if its lets say 20 or 30 percent better than keep it but if its close and the differences are small and given the pros and cons of each system and your use than you may figure out the answer. Money for you is not so much the issue but for me it is so my wallet will dictate it more but given your needs you may have a better outlook on it afterwards. I'm with David maybe sell one lens to offset it. Also huge deals on the Sonys right now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I have the S2 and the same lenses you have, except mine are the CS versions because I also use lighting. I also use a Hasselblad HC/100/2.2 via the H to S adapter for a lot of portrait work. I am phasing out professional work, and the S2 is now more of a personal system so it has nothing to do with being a pro or not.

    I also have the Sony A7R, all three of the currently available FE Zeiss lenses (35/55/24-70), plus use a Leica M21/1.4ASPH, M50/0.95, M75AA and using the LEAE4 adapter for an entire range of Zeiss A mount lenses including the terrific ZA135/1.8.

    So, I'm vest in both and hopefully can share a straightforward opinion.

    IMO, in no way does the Sony deliver the look and feel of the S2/S or CS lenses no matter what lens I bolt to the A7R.

    The Sony A system is a ton of fun, it's small enough to promote spontaneously taking it with you, and the IQ is obviously pretty good.

    However, I see absolutely nothing special enough to compel me to use it in place of the S2 for things that matter to me. How the two sensors render in conjunction with lenses is an apples and oranges comparison.

    The A7R is a knock around camera that's good enough to get a nice image should I run across something special to shoot (which I will then wish I had shot with the S2 later in post production ). Obviously, it does do duty as a higher ISO camera compared to the S2, so there is that aspect to consider depending on where and when you tend to shoot but I place that squarely in the "Horses for Courses" mode of thinking.

    BTW, I despise the Sony operating ergonomics (on all their cameras) compared to the S2's simplicity.

    If I made any move to lighten the load, it'd be to lighten the mental load of too much gear I'd sell all of the Sony stuff to fund a S45/2.8, then wait until Leica announces the next S body because it is the lenses that set the S apart, and are the biggest investment. These lenses will be relevant far into the future. Sony stuff is here today, gone tomorrow.

    My advice, keep the S2 and add the A7 or A7R and some FE glass that was made for it, and use it as intended.

    Don't be lazy, start using the S if you don't have a monopod, get one they are magical.

    Just my 2

    - Marc
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    If it was me, I wouldn't. If my car had any value, I would sell it to get an S2 and some lenses. Unfortunately, selling my car would probably only get me a lens cap or two.

    In your case, if size and weight are issues, sell it. Those issues will only increase over time, and should you change your mind, you can always buy another one. The price of the S2 won't go up.
    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Wow...great feedback. Wasn't expecting so many inputs so quickly.

    Robb - point taken about improving PP skills.

    Dave, Guy - yes, I do have one lens that is used the least, the 35mm.

    And Guy, yes, I did some comparisons with S2 and A7 (not R). Resolution with a7+R 100 a close match to the S2 + 120mm, but overall "look" very different. Esp, wide open no comparison, OOF just melts like rich dark chocolate on the S2 (I recall reading somewhere that DOF for the 120mm on S2 is less than the Noctilux on the M9)

    Marc - thanks for the detailed thoughts. I have been debating the monopod for a while now, I guess it is time to get it and use the S2 a bit more. I agree about S2's simplicity - setting to full MF, yet being able to AF via the rear button is genius in my view and my favorite "feature".

    Jorgen - size/wt are a consideration, esp when hiking. Having said that, I was crazy enough to carry the S2 with tripod and beastly lenses in Glacier National Park, Montana and hiked with it for 8 miles one day over very difficult terrain. Truth be told, some of my favorite pics from that trip came from the S2 + 180mm Elmar.

    I guess I will keep the 70/120/180 lenses at the very least.

    Thanks again for the feedback.

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Keeping the lenses is a great idea, because with Photokina looming over September, you can be sure Leica will come out with a new S camera, this means prices for the 006 will drop and you will be able to upgrade for the enhanced features it offers, or maybe even stretch for the new(er) S if it turns out to something amazing. Either way, you'll be able to breathe new life into your S glass if you stick with it... from the few times I got to use the Leica S, if I had S lenses I'd never sell them.

    If you are worried that a monopod might slow you down, Manfrotto makes a model with a trigger that lets you instantly extend and adjust it to any height - no twisting or unlocking tabs.
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    A few more opinions (as if you needed more ).

    I would NOT sell the S2 or the lenses. You've already said it isn't a financial need.

    IF Leica decides to launch a new S camera it is sure to be a CMOS sensor, probably a CMOSIS version rather than the Sony one being used by other MFD makers. That may or may not preserve the look and feel you and others like about the system (including me). The move to CMOS with the Leica M240 was met with either "love it" or "hate it" reactions amongst long time M users. I'm in the latter camp, and the M240 is the first Leica M issue I did not buy into.

    Even IF a CMOS S is good, it'll be some time before it is all sorted out. I didn't buy into the S system at first after testing it, and it took almost 2 years before it got sorted out to give us what we have now. So, we are looking at as much as 2 to 2.5 years before it's a compelling move up unless we want to be a Guinea Pig, early adopter.

    As to lightening the load, there are ways to squeeze more use out of the S kit. IMO, it is usually not necessary to carry the whole damed kit every time you want to shoot with it. We all have an idiotic compulsion to take everything "just in case"' rather than disciplining ourselves to go do studies with one lens. A S2 with a lens in a sling bag isn't that crushing of a load.

    I also added a Camadapter dual lug ARCA plate so I can have a hand strap and a shoulder strap because I carry a camera for up to 8 hours for work. A wide elastic type shoulder strap makes a huge difference, and acts like a shock absorber.

    For the times where photography isn't the primary purpose for an outing, I can take a A7R and zoom to shoot all those happenstance images.

    - Marc

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Marc - I agree about the special "look" and hence I also skipped the M240. I don't care too much about high ISO - it helps, but is not a deal breaker. Thanks for the tips on lightening the load. My favorite lens is the Summarit-S 120MM and I guess I can live with carrying just that on most trips and add another if really needed or just make do with the A7 + 24-70 zoom as a secondary "lens".

    Best,

    Eeraj
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    Marc - I agree about the special "look" and hence I also skipped the M240. I don't care too much about high ISO - it helps, but is not a deal breaker. Thanks for the tips on lightening the load. My favorite lens is the Summarit-S 120MM and I guess I can live with carrying just that on most trips and add another if really needed or just make do with the A7 + 24-70 zoom as a secondary "lens".

    Best,

    Eeraj
    Supposedly the M240 has much less focusing issues than the M9.

    Honestly I find carrying large and heavy gear on trips a total hassle. If not for the extra size and weight, for the worry of theft / damage. A light kit is always very good to have.

    I do however find my tech camera / MFDB kit compact and light enough for travel. But, if I were not a professional and sold prints for income I would probably not be lugging it around.

    Gear decisions are very personal so its hard to give specific advice in that regard other than if you are considering a given system (camera and / or lens) to try it if you can!
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Another vote for keeping the S and hiking with one lens.
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    having both, the same setup as you for the S2( but i wish I had bouth it with 50% off), and the A7R with some M-glass (and the faboulous 55/1.8), I just second what marc said.

    The Sony is pure fun, I have it always with me and i'm thinking of selling the M9 and the MM for it, but I would never give away the S2 for whatever may come around (well, a S3 maybe).

    Of course, the Sony 55 is superbe, but that's all today what Sony has to offer to match this sensor, so in my opinion it is to early to invest in this system, also service and reliability has to be proven.

    In fact, I'm actually completing my lens line-up for the S. Any tips where you can get that 50% discount?
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I thinka the mistake many people make in comparisons is to look mainly at resolution and dr.
    I own various cameras ( not A7 though) incl. a M and M9p, a canon 5diii and others. The one stands out in regards of iq is the S form the same reasons you mention (smooth transitions between focal plane and background, same true for tonality.)

    I can carry the S with 2 lenses in a backpack on a hike without any problems for 3 hours.
    i would recommend using the S2 more often.

    recently i have added a 45mm lens - the plan is to sometimes just bring the S with 45mm.

    For those times you want a smaller kit you still have the Sony.

    Besides the benefit of the IQ I also enjoy the large optical viewfinder and also the straight forward user interface.
    Just one small thing I don't like: the AF sometimes hints a bit until it is locked.
    Last edited by Paratom; 12th March 2014 at 14:28.
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephan_w View Post
    In fact, I'm actually completing my lens line-up for the S. Any tips where you can get that 50% discount?
    EBay and patience are your friends. See these recent transactions:

    Leica Summarit s 70 mm F 2 5 Aspherical Lens 4022243110557 | eBay


    Leica APO Macro Summarit s 120 mm F 2 5 APO Lens 4022243110700 | eBay

    Obviously do your due diligence about the seller. I bought mine from eBay, 3 from a person who turned out be from a fashion studio in NYC, so I did an in-person transaction.

    Eeraj

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I wouldn't sell the S2, either. I just added the 180 lens to my arsenal two weeks ago. I am an amateur, too, and also don't use my S2 all the time. In fact, I am now contemplating selling my M240 and getting a second hand M9 again instead, for when I don't want to carry the S2 (my third M9 it would be...). The M240 is so much more competent than the M9...but I usually like the images from the M9 more, right out of the camera. Anyway, I can fit the S2 body, with 35, 70 and 180 (or 120) lens in an F-stop Loka rucksack, with the medium sloping insert, leaving plenty of room for other stuff in the context of a full-day hike. In combination with a monopod, it's doable. I've also done family holidays with just the S2 body and the 70mm lens, or an Africa trip with just the 35 and 120 lenses. It's very true that you don't need to bring the whole system with you all the time. The point about a new CMOS S model coming is also a valid one; a CMOS sensor with higher clean ISO would be very welcome here (the S needing fast shutter speeds and the lenses having very shallow DoF at close to wide open). I hope they retain the rendering of the S2, though, and we don't end up with just a bigger M240 sensor....
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Confirming what others have said, with a few more comments:
    - I have travelled a lot with the S2 (Barcelona, NYC, Vegas, SF, Norwegian mountains), I have both the case (great for flights and car), and the Billingham 555 which is enormous and can carry a PC too.
    - For walk-round I usually had 120 and 30, one lens on the body, one in a wide pocket of a jacket
    - I have added the 30-90 zoom, very versatile, one lens enough, greatly extends the use of the S2, but needs light, can be supplemented by 120
    - The 30-90 is expensive, the Hasselblad zoom with adapter may be an alternative
    - I could have sold the 30mm, but the market is limited, and the pros get VAT refund which lowers the used prices.
    - 180 is a great lens, too, but needs high shutter speed when handheld
    - I have also skipped the M240, I have the MM and am happy with this kit, gives me all options
    PS: I did not have high expectations for high ISO on the S2, but it is better than I anticipated, with some NR applied
    - ErlingMM
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    We all have different needs, that is what makes life interesting. I am in the process of trying to sell my entire S2 P kit so as to purchase a technical camera while maintaining some semblance of domestic tranquility…there is no right or wrong here just individual preferences.
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    Senior Member GMB's Avatar
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I second many things that Paratom, boudolino, and erlingmm have said. I use my S2 as much as I can have been with it to Sri Lanka, Sicily, Florida, Wyoming & Montana, Provence, etc. Best I have a fairly complete lens inme up 24, 35, 70, 120, 180, and 30-70 (not bought at 50% discount though ). I also have have the M9, which I like a lot but which is no match for the S2, and which I use much less than the MM these days.

    I normally don't carry the whole line up with me. In fact, I mostly go out with the 30-90 which is sooooo good for what I shoot. For my next trip to Spain, I think I will take that lens, the 24 (it's my newest kid on the block and i really need to test it, the 120, and the 70). Anyway, this system is there to stay with me. I adore the IQ and the simplicity of the use. The only thing I sometimes contemplate is a tech camera set up but I can't master it all because I don't have the time for that.
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I heard the message loud and clear: I need to stop making excuses about the size/weight , start using the equipment more and ramp up my skills. The vote is overwhelmingly clear. I realize that this is a personal preference in the end, but it helps to hear from folks who are more experienced than I am and actually own the equipment, so I am grateful for the feedback that everyone has given.

    Eeraj

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    I heard the message loud and clear: I need to stop making excuses about the size/weight , start using the equipment more and ramp up my skills. The vote is overwhelmingly clear. I realize that this is a personal preference in the end, but it helps to hear from folks who are more experienced than I am and actually own the equipment, so I am grateful for the feedback that everyone has given.

    Eeraj
    you made your choice when you decided to post in the MF forum over posting in the Sony forum

    in the end you posted yourself that you like the IQ from the S2 and that you can clearly see the advantages.
    I think weight is overrated these days-I sometimes carry my daughter on the shoulder - when she leaves my shoulders the S2 feels like a feather
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Sell the S2 and lenses. you can always buy them back.

    Buy three of the new Sigma DPms. they'll produce files as good as the S2.
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Ah, if that were only true.

    Maybe the Easter Bunny will leave a few in my basket this year.
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Sigmas are great and I used the DP3 earlier (rented), but I never got used to their weird file format or the processing workflow needed for them. A shame as otherwise I found the output stellar, though I would say S2 is still different. I mean the look. Give me DNG file format or some other thatn LR can recognize out of the camera and I am in.

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I don't have an S2, but I do have a 645D, which has a similar Kodak sensor. The files are amazing. I considered a D800E, but why carry something almost as heavy as the 645D for almost the same quality? The Sony is tempting and I may succumb, but I will certainly keep the 645D.

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    Sell the S2 and lenses. you can always buy them back.

    Buy three of the new Sigma DPms. they'll produce files as good as the S2.

    I shoot an ALPA Max, but I also shoot all three of the Sigma DPM little guys. My ALPA stays close to the studio and when I travel, I take the Sigmas and a small tripod. I am glad I bought them, as I was looking for a smaller alternative with exceptional quality and I found what I was looking for. Yes, their post processing program is slow moving, so I just import them as TIFs from the Sigma program and work with them in LR or C1. The files produced by the Foveon sensor and the matched lenses are stunning.
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I Think everyone here is being influenced by passion and the "S2" which for many is out of reach. I use to be invested heavily into Leica ta one time to the point where it got ridiculous. So as an ex Leica junkie I am speaking from my experience and without any emotional attachment to gear.

    1. There is no doubt the S2 glass is amazing. Can't deny that.
    2. The S2 is so ridiculously over priced it's not even funny. And then they have the extra fee for the added extras like scratch resistant glass, warranty etc... all things that should already be covered by a camera pushing the 30K range.
    3. Sad but true, I would take a D800E over the S2 for several valid reasons.
    3a. Support
    3b. Cost
    3c. Zeiss Otus line and new upcoming Otus lenses. And yes the Otus is better than any Leica lens no matter how hard it is to accept for someone who spent a fortune on Leica glass. but the facts are undeniable.
    3d. D800 breaks, your out 3k and can replace it probably the same day. S2 breaks, your out 28k, and good luck having it serviced and finding one easily.
    3e. S2 technology is old.
    3f. Th money you save from S2 can go a long ways. However, for someone who can afford an S2 and the line up of lenses, I don't think that is a problem. I Thank God I can afford such luxuries in life when so many cannot. But at the same time, I don't like over paying regardless of how much one makes.
    3g. The people you show your pictures to cannot tell the difference between an S2 image and a D800E image
    3h. Hang tight, Sony may introduce a 54mp camera soon and with the right glass, it will be killer for a fraction of a fraction of the S2 price

    However, the bottom line is what makes you happy! I just dumped all my high end glass including the Otus along with a couple of D4 cameras and switched to a Sony A99 with all the Zeiss auto focus lenses. Guess what, I never looked back and I had lots of money left over.

    Good luck with decision.

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryc View Post
    I Think everyone here is being influenced by passion and the "S2" which for many is out of reach. I use to be invested heavily into Leica ta one time to the point where it got ridiculous. So as an ex Leica junkie I am speaking from my experience and without any emotional attachment to gear.

    1. There is no doubt the S2 glass is amazing. Can't deny that.
    2. The S2 is so ridiculously over priced it's not even funny. And then they have the extra fee for the added extras like scratch resistant glass, warranty etc... all things that should already be covered by a camera pushing the 30K range.
    3. Sad but true, I would take a D800E over the S2 for several valid reasons.
    3a. Support
    3b. Cost
    3c. Zeiss Otus line and new upcoming Otus lenses. And yes the Otus is better than any Leica lens no matter how hard it is to accept for someone who spent a fortune on Leica glass. but the facts are undeniable.
    3d. D800 breaks, your out 3k and can replace it probably the same day. S2 breaks, your out 28k, and good luck having it serviced and finding one easily.
    3e. S2 technology is old.
    3f. Th money you save from S2 can go a long ways. However, for someone who can afford an S2 and the line up of lenses, I don't think that is a problem. I Thank God I can afford such luxuries in life when so many cannot. But at the same time, I don't like over paying regardless of how much one makes.
    3g. The people you show your pictures to cannot tell the difference between an S2 image and a D800E image
    3h. Hang tight, Sony may introduce a 54mp camera soon and with the right glass, it will be killer for a fraction of a fraction of the S2 price

    However, the bottom line is what makes you happy! I just dumped all my high end glass including the Otus along with a couple of D4 cameras and switched to a Sony A99 with all the Zeiss auto focus lenses. Guess what, I never looked back and I had lots of money left over.

    Good luck with decision.
    Hi there,
    IMO it is hard to say what is overpaying and what is not.

    The S system has higher prices than DSLRs from Nikon or Canon. However you also get certain advantages. First the advantages of larger sensor which also has influence on the look (transition betweeb sharp focused plane and background for example, excellent color specially skin tones), you get even better lenses. For example the S lenses I own vignette by far less than most of the comparable high quality 35mm lenses I own. They are also exceptional good even wide open.
    Maybe the Opus is an exception - I have never tried one, but have some other very nice 35mm lenses like the Sigma 35/1.4 ART (maybe the best of the bunch), several Leica M lenses, the 21/2.8 Zeiss for Canon etc. and I would say the Leica S are best - visibly.
    Besides price there is also the question how things hold their value. The S-bodies - if you buy them new do loose value pretty fast (like other MF-cameras as well), but the lenses are pretty stable in value.

    Also today there is also a good used market for S gear- if you buy used you wont loose much money.

    It is a luxury to be able to afford such a system, but I believe you also get added value from this system.

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hi there,
    IMO it is hard to say what is overpaying and what is not.

    The S system has higher prices than DSLRs from Nikon or Canon. However you also get certain advantages. First the advantages of larger sensor which also has influence on the look (transition betweeb sharp focused plane and background for example, excellent color specially skin tones), you get even better lenses. For example the S lenses I own vignette by far less than most of the comparable high quality 35mm lenses I own. They are also exceptional good even wide open.
    Maybe the Opus is an exception - I have never tried one, but have some other very nice 35mm lenses like the Sigma 35/1.4 ART (maybe the best of the bunch), several Leica M lenses, the 21/2.8 Zeiss for Canon etc. and I would say the Leica S are best - visibly.
    Besides price there is also the question how things hold their value. The S-bodies - if you buy them new do loose value pretty fast (like other MF-cameras as well), but the lenses are pretty stable in value.

    Also today there is also a good used market for S gear- if you buy used you wont loose much money.

    It is a luxury to be able to afford such a system, but I believe you also get added value from this system.
    The Pentax 645DII is very likely to be $10k, the Hasselblad 50c is $27.5k and the Phase IQ150 is $35k; this leaves Leica in a spot between the Pentax and Hass, which would be $19k, I think it's a very plausible and competent price for what the camera features.

    The Leica S2 really was overpriced at $23k at the time, especially since there were practically no lenses to use on it, and other systems offered more flexibility. The ergonomics and lens lineup are mostly perfect as-is, they just need to bring in 2014 technology and set a lower price.

    As for comparisons to 35mm... well... I suppose that if the idea of buying a camera that costs as much as a luxury car has crossed a person's mind, they probably weren't in the market for something inexpensive in the first place. People who actually want and can buy this thing likely aren't getting aneurisms over how expensive the S is, it's just us photography nerds.

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryc View Post
    I Think everyone here is being influenced by passion and the "S2" which for many is out of reach. I use to be invested heavily into Leica ta one time to the point where it got ridiculous. So as an ex Leica junkie I am speaking from my experience and without any emotional attachment to gear.

    1. There is no doubt the S2 glass is amazing. Can't deny that.
    2. The S2 is so ridiculously over priced it's not even funny. And then they have the extra fee for the added extras like scratch resistant glass, warranty etc... all things that should already be covered by a camera pushing the 30K range.
    3. Sad but true, I would take a D800E over the S2 for several valid reasons.
    3a. Support
    3b. Cost
    3c. Zeiss Otus line and new upcoming Otus lenses. And yes the Otus is better than any Leica lens no matter how hard it is to accept for someone who spent a fortune on Leica glass. but the facts are undeniable.
    3d. D800 breaks, your out 3k and can replace it probably the same day. S2 breaks, your out 28k, and good luck having it serviced and finding one easily.
    3e. S2 technology is old.
    3f. Th money you save from S2 can go a long ways. However, for someone who can afford an S2 and the line up of lenses, I don't think that is a problem. I Thank God I can afford such luxuries in life when so many cannot. But at the same time, I don't like over paying regardless of how much one makes.
    3g. The people you show your pictures to cannot tell the difference between an S2 image and a D800E image
    3h. Hang tight, Sony may introduce a 54mp camera soon and with the right glass, it will be killer for a fraction of a fraction of the S2 price

    However, the bottom line is what makes you happy! I just dumped all my high end glass including the Otus along with a couple of D4 cameras and switched to a Sony A99 with all the Zeiss auto focus lenses. Guess what, I never looked back and I had lots of money left over.

    Good luck with decision.
    I think this is a good counter balance to all the posts in support of keeping the S2. Reality checks are always worth mentioning.

    Of course, don't expect your opinion to go unchallenged and we must remember there are no absolutes in any creative endeavor, only opinions.

    Beside, I'm snowed in and it is bitter cold out, so I have the time

    1) I agree.

    2) Overpriced compared to what? I lost a lot more on my Hasselblad H gear than I would if I sold the S gear. Compared to a D800E? Well, to buy that argument, you have to believe 35mm is the same visual interpretation as MF provides, and subscribe to Bean-Counter ideas about creative matters which I don't. Sorry.

    Beasides, Bean Counter mentalities usually do not fair well in any creative endeavor. Whatever it costs to satisfy your personal creative vision is usually worth it if you can afford it. If not, then you can make bean counter arguments to the contrary . Bean counters will talk you out of almost anything given the chance. It is their job.

    3a) I had Nikon extremely bad service experiences, the horror stories I could tell you and now they are squeezing out the independent repair people, so good luck when the warranty runs out. Every service experience with my S2 has been stellar (don't confuse M service with the separate S service system). Representative of everyone's experience? Don't know. Don't care. Horrible from Nikon, Great from Leica.

    3b) Duh. Well, yeah. Ya pay to play that should be Leica's theme line.

    3c) Opinion fostered by the "pixel peeper generation" Otis may be better for full-filling many people's opinion but they don't make MFD AF lenses, so it's a moot point to me. To use Otis, you have to use a Canon or Nikon 35mm, and to get AF you mostly have to use Nikon lenses no thanks, don't like them.

    3d) Weird arguments. A Leica S2 isn't $28K. Anyone that wants to buy mine for $28K please e-mail me . If my S2 breaks I wouldn't toss it in the trash, I'd repair it. If it was a total loss then insurance would replace it. BTW, if I want FF 36 meg for cheap, I can get a A7R for $2K but it is still a 35mm Bean Counter argument, and not a larger sensor and all that entails. If you don't see the difference between 35mm rendering and that of larger sensor cameras, that's your problem, not mine.

    3e) Yep. So are a number of cameras and digital backs yet somehow, people keep making amazing images with them. Except in extreme applications, the technology merry-go-round designed to keep everyone buying the latest greatest shouldn't be confused with actually making photographs. Digital reached the point of diminishing returns a few year ago, but the upgrade mentality from its' infancy remains unabated.

    3f) The money you save by buying something that satisfies your personal creative sensibilities and keeping it despite all the rational horse-crap designed to grift you into selling something, then buying something else, is what will really go a long ways.

    3g) In your opinion. My photos have to satisfy me first if they don't, then other people's opinion is irrelevant. Left to the masses, most can't tell a cell phone shot from a D800, because everything is squashed down to a sub 1 meg jpeg in sRGB color space, and posted on Twitter, etc.

    3h) Sony may do a 54 meg sensor. So? Maybe Leica will do a 60 meg CMOSIS sensor, or 80meg, or 100 meg. Unfortunately "Maybe Gear" has never taken a good photo. Doesn't matter to me anyway, I suspect the Leica S2 or S with CCD sensor may be the last S that'll satisfy my personal creative evaluation and I hope a lot of others go for the latest-greatest S, so I can get a S (type 006) cheap to add to the S2 I already have

    IMHO, YMMV, etc.

    - Marc
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryc View Post
    I Think everyone here is being influenced by passion and the "S2" which for many is out of reach. I use to be invested heavily into Leica ta one time to the point where it got ridiculous. So as an ex Leica junkie I am speaking from my experience and without any emotional attachment to gear.

    1. There is no doubt the S2 glass is amazing. Can't deny that.
    2. The S2 is so ridiculously over priced it's not even funny. And then they have the extra fee for the added extras like scratch resistant glass, warranty etc... all things that should already be covered by a camera pushing the 30K range.
    3. Sad but true, I would take a D800E over the S2 for several valid reasons.
    3a. Support
    3b. Cost
    3c. Zeiss Otus line and new upcoming Otus lenses. And yes the Otus is better than any Leica lens no matter how hard it is to accept for someone who spent a fortune on Leica glass. but the facts are undeniable.
    3d. D800 breaks, your out 3k and can replace it probably the same day. S2 breaks, your out 28k, and good luck having it serviced and finding one easily.
    3e. S2 technology is old.
    3f. Th money you save from S2 can go a long ways. However, for someone who can afford an S2 and the line up of lenses, I don't think that is a problem. I Thank God I can afford such luxuries in life when so many cannot. But at the same time, I don't like over paying regardless of how much one makes.
    3g. The people you show your pictures to cannot tell the difference between an S2 image and a D800E image
    3h. Hang tight, Sony may introduce a 54mp camera soon and with the right glass, it will be killer for a fraction of a fraction of the S2 price

    However, the bottom line is what makes you happy! I just dumped all my high end glass including the Otus along with a couple of D4 cameras and switched to a Sony A99 with all the Zeiss auto focus lenses. Guess what, I never looked back and I had lots of money left over.

    Good luck with decision.
    The lack of leaf shutters rule out the sony/Nikon option for many people,its a smaller sensor and the Leica S has a fantastic viewfinder.

    The Otus is excellent and maybe as good as S glass but it's manual focus only and again has no CS and its as heavy as leica's S120 macro and in the same price range as the S70 (which has the same fov and A.F and optional CS)

    Its not a cheap body but you buy it for the System and it's no more expensive than the Phase or Hassy equivalents.

    Another point is that as things stand the D800 sensor already over samples most of the available glass so 56mp will be hard to justify but the S sensor's larger size and superb glass will accommodate a lot more resolution that will be fully utilised by the lenses!

    Rob
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    There is more than mere megapixels and MTF resolution charts. Lenses
    and apparently the way raw data is recorded and "processed" by the
    sensor and its associated electronics, have specific characteristics that
    some refer to as "draw." Some lenses are extremely "sharp" in terms of
    resolution, but yield a "sterile" image. Others may not be as "sharp" but the image has a sense of presence, or three dimensionality, or warmth, or "character." (The terminology varies.) I have a D800E and a S2. Nikon lenses and leica lenses do not "draw" the same. I have had many observers comment that my prints from the Leica "have a three dimensionality" such that they can "touch and feel" the textures; I have not had the same said of the Nikon images, processed "the same." Zeiss has yet another "draw" that many describe as more saturated and more contrast.

    I do "fine art" photography, mostly urban decay and intimate landscapes. The "draw" of the lens makes a difference.

    Alas, I cannot paint (which is probably why I got into photography), but
    can appreciate that there is a difference in various types of brushes, and certainly between a brush and a palette knife-- both can put oil on canvas, but the look, the feel, will certainly be different!! It is the same
    with lenses and apparently sensors (with their electronics).

    Thus we must all consider how we want our final image to appear and that should help decide which camera, lenses, etc. to use -- just as the painter selects acrylic vs oil vs watercolor and brush vs knife.
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Marc, I accept your counter points except the one where you state its not 28k

    Amazon.com: Leica S2-P 37.5MP Camera Body with 3-Inch LCD with Sapphire LCD Cover [BODY ONLY]: Camera & Photo

    Anyway, Like I said, ultimate decision si up to owner not us.

    And if money is not an issue, you can always get the Hassy version of the Sony A99 for 11k

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    > support:
    My service experience with Leica has been stellar. After buying the S2, sold to me as Leica CPO, from a dealer in FL who shall remain nameless, I noticed a few marks on the body. I sent it to Leica NJ who sent to Solms Germany for evaluation. At first their response was "heavy impact damage" and implied that I must have dropped it. Long story short, after a few emails they decided to pick up the tab for about $3,500 worth of service. I got a loaner S2 and they turned my S2 into as new condition. They also checked all 4 lenses free of cost and shipping to Germany was on their dime.

    cost:

    1. Seriously, who pays retail for this stuff?
    2. Anyone looking at S2 or Hassy has already passed the cost considerations. Now there are pros, who will evaluate the ROI and that is perfectly fine. For me, cost was out of the equation as I was buying used and most of the depreciation has been factored in already.

    I agree it is a personal decision in the end, but it is certainly helpful to hear from folks who know a lot more than I do and this is where this forum shines - no nonsense advise. How do you put a value on the build quality and the feel of the damn'ed S lenses? There are no rational ways to quantify these things. I am pretty ruthless in culling the equipment, but this is another story...

    I am glad I didn't post this on that other big photo forum in the Sony section!

    -- Eeraj

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    In the past years, I have taken as many shots with medium format and dslr.
    95% of the pictures I keep watching were made with MF.
    I took many pictures in conditions where MF wouldn't have worked, but I must admit I don't look much at them afterwards.

    I had canon 5d2, Nikon D3x and Sigma DP2m.
    The sony A7r gives more : very good colors and dynamic range, very good optical quality with the 55mm. It is much lighter. Very easy to use, none of the issues we read everywhere has any importance to me.

    The issue is that is is so convenient to use and delivers so good images that my first reaction was to sell the MF, make travel life easier and think about what to do with the MF money.
    Then I looked at the images made with MF (Sinar, Contax, Alpa, Phase) ... hmm this is still a different world. Colors, contrast, natural look.

    So as long as I can afford keeping both I will do.
    There will be another risk : be lazy, leave MF home.
    That will only depend on passion : if I keep sufficient passion in photography, both in the process of making pictures and watching results, I will make the efforts of using MF.

    I will travel with 2 sets :
    - Alpa + 35mm for landscapes
    - Sony with 55mm for everything

    And I will keep my Contax + 80 & 120mm and its Sinar back for portraits.

    I should have sticked to the Contax for everything, more than enough, overall best camera of all. I regret I tried the addictive Alpa, and now I bought the sony-for-lazy camera.

    So my advice from someone who spent too much time looking at other cameras while I had a fantastic one : keep focused on photography not material, don't become lazy, as much as you can afford and are passionate enough.
    The day you have other priorities and still want a very good camera, buy the sony.

    Marc, 23 days since I bought a camera
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I like Robb Williamson's post.

    Regardless whether you need to improve skills or just gain more familiarity with the camera, I do feel that sometimes there are knee-jerk decisions, responses to a newly purchased camera/lens. Sometimes we just need to make ourselves use the camera more and spend more time with it, I mean a lot more. We need to use it enough, so that we have shot with it so many times and in so many situations, that the image quality advantages (if they exist) are clear.

    For many, that is the bottom line - if you and the camera don't feel bonded, sometimes that process can help with that bonding. If the results aren't there, then that validates your feeling there isn't a bond to begin with.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    If I had a Leica S and set of lenses, you'd have to cut my arms off to make me put it down!

    The Zeiss Otus looks like an amazing lens but as others have said, it's manual focus only and heavy, heavy, heavy. Also, Zeiss may be bringing out others in the Otus line, but until they're on the shelves and with a proven performance record, they're little more than rumour.

    The few times I've demoed an S2 I was truly amazed. It'd be my perfect camera if it weren't for the 3:2 format and lack of wide and normal TS lenses. As things stand, I need movements. I could deal with the format easily, but can't give up on tilt and shift.

    Also, an eager rep once submerged a demo S2 and 70mm lens in water in front of me to prove its weather resistance. I nearly cried when he did it, but it came out perfect. Do that with the competition!
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    I did like many S2 imagers, but never "clicked" with the system despite trying it several times.
    Sort of like buying a dog.
    -bob
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    So what would be the cat equivalent?!

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Also, an eager rep once submerged a demo S2 and 70mm lens in water in front of me to prove its weather resistance. I nearly cried when he did it, but it came out perfect. Do that with the competition!
    I can believe that, In some early article or interview, I recall reading that Leica engineers tested the S2's waterproofing in a dishwasher.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    So what would be the cat equivalent?!
    My first cat lived for 21 years, I don't think you're going to find anything comparable
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryc View Post
    Marc, I accept your counter points except the one where you state its not 28k

    Amazon.com: Leica S2-P 37.5MP Camera Body with 3-Inch LCD with Sapphire LCD Cover [BODY ONLY]: Camera & Photo

    Anyway, Like I said, ultimate decision si up to owner not us.

    And if money is not an issue, you can always get the Hassy version of the Sony A99 for 11k
    Speaking of a "reality check" only a neophyte would shell out $28K for a first gen camera when the second gen one is $22K (which one can get for less $ with a little shopping and bargaining):

    Leica S Medium Format DSLR Camera (Body Only) 10803 B&H Photo

    Your link is either an old forgotten ad or a "wishful thinking ad" from some retailer hoping to grift some unsuspecting soul with an in-stock, left-over S2P.

    The S2P came with a platinum warranty that included hot-swap service, and perpetual service discounts which Leica typically over-priced. P1 and Hasselblad offer the same type additional service contracts which also are not inexpensive.

    I have the S2P which I bought 4 years ago, and I assure you I did not pay $28K then, and most certainly wouldn't do so now. I'd get the S (type 006) if I were buying today.

    BTW, as mentioned by others, one of the chief benefits of the S2/S cameras is their dual shutter ability. All of my lenses are the CS type that provide sync speeds to 1/1000, or focal plane to 1/4000. It also can be used with Hasselblad HC/HCD leaf shutter lenses in either shutter mode, something you can't even do with a Hasselblad camera.



    - Marc

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    BTW, as mentioned by others, one of the chief benefits of the S2/S cameras is their dual shutter ability. All of my lenses are the CS type that provide sync speeds to 1/1000, or focal plane to 1/4000. It also can be used with Hasselblad HC/HCD leaf shutter lenses in either shutter mode, something you can't even do with a Hasselblad camera.



    - Marc
    Marc,

    So on the S2, can you shoot the Hasselblad lenses with a sync speed of 1/4000?

    Thanks, Joris.

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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Marc,

    So on the S2, can you shoot the Hasselblad lenses with a sync speed of 1/4000?

    Thanks, Joris.
    Joris, using the fully functional H to S adapter, you can shoot any Hasselblad HC/HCD leaf shutter lens up to 1/4000 using the focal plane shutter of the camera. Flip the mode switch on the S2 to CS and you can shoot those lenses up to 1/750 sync speed. Leica CS lenses can go to 1/1000 sync speed.

    Don't confuse HSS type lighting using a speed-light with shooting at a higher sync speed with strobes. HSS with a speed-light is a very weak level of light output from an already weak light source compared to even a modest studio type strobe.

    - Marc
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    Re: Selling the S2 = stupidity?

    2 pictures made this afternoon, that tell me not to drop the MF for the sony.
    I could have shown some pictures better done with the Sony (focus, dynamic range better than this eyelike e22 back, ...) but this illustrate what I like in MF for portraits.

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