Sanity Check on a MFD setup - starting from zero

[young'ee]

Spent a week now reading and re-reading. Scoured the forums, been all over the web sites of many dealers.

A week later i am more confused then educated. So looking for a bit of insight from those who have set up a MF back on the platforms i am looking at.

Today i have zero equipment - starting from scratch again, so can buy into any system i want.

I earnt my living off photography for 14 years but gave it up in 97 so i've been around the block a few times in regards to equipment - i owned a Bronica SQ 6x6 and ETRS 6x 4.5 and ETRSi 6x4.5 , Cannon New F1 and a slew of lenses and a set of Elinchrom studio lights. All that stuff got sold off when i moved to the other side of the world to do other things in life. So i do have a good idea of the equipment involved.

So now i want to get back into photography - not commercially this time. I want to spend a few years hiking around the bush where i live taking pano landscapes on a MFD back.

So i know what i want to do - i just dont know how to get there.

I have 2 goals - get a MF camera setup (or 2 or 3 - because i would like to mess around with some studio gear for a bit of fun) and i would like to get an Alpa FPS system.

I have always LOVED Rollie so want to get a Rollie system and those lenses are to die for iirc. Having done extensive research in the last week it looks like the Hy6 mod 2 is the way to go. Having read extensively on the Alpa FPS system i see i can get a back plate for various MFD backs and Alpa have a lens adapter for Rollei lenses.

Sounds simple enough....... Ha! Seems nothing is simple when it comes to MFD!

So the problem is this - the Rollie system can only take Leaf or Sinar backs. I think it is the AFi mount. The Alpa has a back plate for a Leaf AFi back. Plus the Alpa can mount the Rollei lenses. All sounds good so far.......

Except that the Phase backs have a killer feature i really would like to have..focus mask! So if i go for a Leaf back i dont get this feature.

If i go Phase back i can mount the back onto the Alpa but cant use the Rollei Hy6

To make it all more complicated, I see a very good deal right now on a new with full warranty and support Aptus II 10 56MP back but in MAMIYA mount only. Such a good price - but the mount is wrong for a Hy6 and i dont get the focus mask feature.

Have i summed this up the right way ? AM i missing something? It seems like there is no way to get what i want - Phase back with focus mask that can be mounted on the Alpa FPS and on a Hy6

The systems i am interested in getting into are the Alpa FPS, Rollei Hy6, Fuji 680 III, Mamiya RZ II - i am interested in adapting a MFD to the Fuji and RZ systems - i would like to setup a small studio again with a new set of modern lights - things have come so far in the last 17 years !!.

I am interested in collecting lenses and so want to mess around adapting lenses to the Alpa, so the Rollei and RZ glass could be cross used here - i may be way out on the RZ glass on the Alpa - not sure on that yet - i do see a Mamiya adaptor for the Alpa system, so this may work? I have fond memeories of RB and RZ setups from the 80's and 90's and the RZ lenses were pretty good. My thoughts on this are that the RZ glass would have a pretty big image circle and this would be good for movements on the Alpa with sensor sizes being where they are at around 60MP.

So given all this i cant figure out a way forward.

Any thoughts that might help me here ?

Thanks

 

[dougpeterson]

Except that the Phase backs have a killer feature i really would like to have..focus mask! So if i go for a Leaf back i dont get this feature.

If i go Phase back i can mount the back onto the Alpa but cant use the Rollei Hy6

To make it all more complicated, I see a very good deal right now on a new with full warranty and support Aptus II 10 56MP back but in MAMIYA mount only. Such a good price - but the mount is wrong for a Hy6 and i dont get the focus mask feature.

Have i summed this up the right way ? AM i missing something? It seems like there is no way to get what i want - Phase back with focus mask that can be mounted on the Alpa FPS and on a Hy6.

You're asking on the forum for your wallet. The only acceptable answer here is to get a P1 IQ260 for your tech camera and a separate Credo 80 AFI for your Hy6 . :ROTFL:

JK... I'll reply back with some serious thoughts in a second.

 

[dougpeterson]

Spent a week now reading and re-reading. Scoured the forums, been all over the web sites of many dealers.

As it turns out a weeks worth of internet research is probably worth less than an hours worth of shooting. While I'll give some feedback on your comments from my (biased* though experienced) point of view the real test is your own hands-on evaluation of the relevant products. It's not at all uncommon to see people walk through our door absolutely convinced via research they are going to go one of two directions only to end up going with a third. I had the same experience when I bought my car; thought for sure I wouldn't want the GXP edition with more kick, but it took all of five seconds in a GXP edition to know that I had to have it.

I earnt my living off photography for 14 years but gave it up in 97 so i've been around the block a few times in regards to equipment - i owned a Bronica SQ 6x6 and ETRS 6x 4.5 and ETRSi 6x4.5 , Cannon New F1 and a slew of lenses and a set of Elinchrom studio lights. All that stuff got sold off when i moved to the other side of the world to do other things in life. So i do have a good idea of the equipment involved.

So now i want to get back into photography - not commercially this time. I want to spend a few years hiking around the bush where i live taking pano landscapes on a MFD back.

You should do some internal consideration on how literally you mean "hiking". If you mean backpacking then you might rethink the FPS which adds a lot of weight relative to something like a Alpa STC (+/-18mm of movement) or Cambo RC400 (+/- 20mm of movement).

Likewise a back which works well with Schneider wide angles rather than Rodenstock wide angles will save you consider pack weight/size - this eliminates the 80mp models.

I have always LOVED Rollie so want to get a Rollie system and those lenses are to die for iirc. Having done extensive research in the last week it looks like the Hy6 mod 2 is the way to go. Having read extensively on the Alpa FPS system i see i can get a back plate for various MFD backs and Alpa have a lens adapter for Rollei lenses.

The Rollei lenses are absolutely to die for. But then again so are the Schneider LS lenses and Hassy HC lenses and even Mamiya RZ lenses - there actually aren't many modern medium format systems that have anything less than "very good" lenses.

In my opinion nostalgia is not a good reason to jump into a platform. Now there are many very very good reasons to jump into the Hy6 platform - unique ergonomics, good lenses, sync speed, vertical shooting is very pleasant, etc. But just before you invest heavily in a system I think it's worth spending at least a few minutes with each of the major systems to make sure that your love of Rollei is because of it's great positive attributes and not because of a brand association left over from your work two decades ago.

So the problem is this - the Rollie system can only take Leaf or Sinar backs. I think it is the AFi mount.

Correct. Must be an "AFi mount" or "Hy6 mount" back to fit on there.

Except that the Phase backs have a killer feature i really would like to have..focus mask! So if i go for a Leaf back i dont get this feature.

Focus mask is really useful. But I find it most useful when doing Scheimpflug movements. So if you're using a system like the Arca R that doesn't require separate adapters and specially mounted lenses to do tilt then focus mask is - in my opinion, vital. On a Hy6 body I would rely more on the nice viewfinder, live view, and 100% review than on focus mask.

To make it all more complicated, I see a very good deal right now on a new with full warranty and support Aptus II 10 56MP back but in MAMIYA mount only. Such a good price - but the mount is wrong for a Hy6 and i dont get the focus mask feature.

This is a very different back than the Credo or IQ. It has some advantages (tilting screen, rotating sensor, manual metadata entry) but some major drawbacks (dimmer, lower res screen, much slower image review, less review features). Please please don't decide between them because you see a specific "good deal" - this is a large investment. First determine what's right for you THEN look for a deal - not the other way around.

Have i summed this up the right way ? AM i missing something? It seems like there is no way to get what i want - Phase back with focus mask that can be mounted on the Alpa FPS and on a Hy6

A Credo 60AFI with a Surface Pro (see recent threads with Ken Doo) would technically give you Hy6, focus mask, and tech cam compatibility all in one unit, at the cost of carrying around a surface pro.

I am interested in collecting lenses and so want to mess around adapting lenses to the Alpa, so the Rollei and RZ glass could be cross used here - i may be way out on the RZ glass on the Alpa - not sure on that yet - i do see a Mamiya adaptor for the Alpa system, so this may work?

RZ lenses don't have a focusing helical. So any adapter would need to incorporate a helical.

I have fond memeories of RB and RZ setups from the 80's and 90's and the RZ lenses were pretty good. My thoughts on this are that the RZ glass would have a pretty big image circle and this would be good for movements on the Alpa with sensor sizes being where they are at around 60MP.

Personally I'd go with an IQ260, RZ Pro IID, and an Arca R. But the reason there are so many options is because each one is the best choice for someone!

Now get out there and TRY them!!!

*See my signature; since you're new here I want to make sure I'm clear my opinion is biased - even if I make every effort to try to take a broader perspective.

 

[gerald.d]

The FPS is a totally different proposition to any other tech camera.

Disingenuous in the extreme to try to sway someone away from it simply because you don't sell it.

Read this again:
"I have 2 goals - get a MF camera setup (or 2 or 3 - because i would like to mess around with some studio gear for a bit of fun) and i would like to get an Alpa FPS system."

You should do some internal consideration on how literally you mean "hiking". If you mean backpacking then you might rethink the FPS which adds a lot of weight relative to something like a Alpa STC (+/-18mm of movement) or Cambo RC400 (+/- 20mm of movement).

So, discount it purely based on weight. Nothing else even mentioned. As we will see, discount it based on weight in a comparison with two cameras that you're not even going to end up recommending.

Because in the end...

Personally I'd go with an IQ260, RZ Pro IID, and an Arca R.

FPS - 735g
Arca R:
Factum - 640g
RM3Di - 1150g
RL3Di - 1500g

FUD, bait, switch.

Still, got a link in for the Arca R on a thread talking about completely different cameras, so I'm sure that's another point scored on the SEO gaming.

 

[fotografz]

If you decide on a RZ ProII-D e-mail me, I have an entire system with a brand new camera that I had intended to equip with a Leaf back, then went a different direction. It's yours for cheap.

- Marc

 

[Ken_R]

Hi, I have handled a Hy6, Leica S / S2, Phase DF+ and Hasselblad H4D / H5D.

If you like to use manual focusing the best viewfinder / focusing screen is the one in the Leica S. It is just superb. The Leica S build and feel is just a cut above ANY camera avilable today. The sensor / image quality is good but not the best. The latest phase / Leaf backs are significantly better. The lenses are superb though.

The Hy6 has a more traditional feel but with a modern AF and grip. Felt good in hand but being designed for 6x6 film it might feel a bit awkward when using a crop digital sensor back. The lenses are great.

The DF+ feels good in hand and the viewfinder is good and the AF is competent. The lenses are good. Phase is fully committed with this system so you will have great support and it is easy to buy or sell used.

The Hasselblad system is very very nice. The lens line is awesome. They have a 24mm available. The bodies feel nice. It was my choice although I chose a Phase IQ back because of the image quality / software and the superb lcd screen in the IQ backs which is unmatched (the Leaf Credo is identical). The IQ backs feel fast when in use even untethered. Image review is quick. Feels like a very modern system unlike the P+ backs and older Leaf backs.

Regarding tech cameras there are a lot of good choices from Arca / Cambo and Alpa. It is best to work with a dealer and schedule a demo. Each system has is idiosyncrasies so it is best do see and or use them beforehand.

I used Digital Transitions to get my Arca RM3Di / Rodenstock lenses and IQ160 back and am very happy with the system.

 

[young'ee]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the replies.

Pleased to have the debate pro and con - its what i asked for, and well, i got it

OK so Doug - you are very right - a week of intense reading (and i do mean a week of INTENSE reading) does not equal an hour of hands on with all this new kit for sure. Problem is i am in the Middle of Africa - no dealers here I'm afraid.

First thing to understand is i am doing this on a whim - nothing more. Its purely for kicks to go out in the bush and take landscapes - something i dream't about back in the day but paying the rent, staff, my Kodak bill etc would not allow. (Anyone remember Kodak ? i had a 22.5% discount on my Kodak account - and if you know anything about Kodak accounts from the 80's and 90's you will know how hard it is to get that discount level - we were turning over serious amounts of Kodak product). So this is just for the joy of it - no need to make any money out of it or to be trying to make a photo business work. That gives me a lot of latitude.

When i left photography we used to use film - not sure if anyone here is young enough to remember that stuff? I used to process it too - i owned a prolab so did much C-41, E6, EP2, P3 then a bit later on as things changed RA2 and P3x processing etc. Cant tell you how relived i am to NOT have to go there again Ahh the memories....just typing this out takes me back to things i have not thought about in nearly 20 years ! I had a Devere 5x7 auto everything enlarger that i did countless hours on in the dark all day long, a Lucht package printer in another dark room...anyway going off topic.......... my point with this off topic rant is, i have never used a digital anything! So really starting from scratch here....really!

This makes it very hard to chose a platform from afar - i cant travel as i run a network here that i need to be close too - i can get away for a day but i sure cant be gone for a week. So this makes it somewhat hard to go out to the real world and test things out..... unless Doug wants to bring a slew of gear out to Africa for the trialling

So about all i have to go on is experience from the trenches 2 decades ago and the Internet.

My thoughts on this are to invest in some lower cost gear just because i would love to get an RZ system because i have such fond memories of them. Then i want to get a Fuji 680 system with a full set of lenses for studio work - again for no other reason then i would love to do it.

Then put the serious money into some high end tech camera gear. Why Alpa? I had never come across or heard of Alpa before - until reading these forums - then i came across all the tech cam pron. I mean Swiss anything cant be bad right? Is this rational ? No of course not! But then if i were listening to my head and not my heart i wouldn't be dropping money into a digital back in the first place. When i read through the threads here on tech cams, i go weak at the knees and my heart misses a beat when i see the Alpa's on show here. Love is never rational.

So upon researching Alpa i came across this lovely lovely system called FPS. Its brand new to me - never seen it before. But having seen it there is nothing else for me.

The thing about Alpa FPS is the way you can add all sorts of lenses to it - this scratches another itch - i want to collect old lenses - just because i love lenses! So much better if could actually use them sometimes as well.

I think you are right about most all MF lenses being good. But there is something about Rollei - The main thrust for the Rollei is the 90mm - is there a better MF lens out there? I have never used a Hy6 of course - but it looks like a solid bit of kit. Really. My use for that body would be for more casual stuff and perhaps some studio work as well - if the focus setup is as good as they say, well thats a good thing for what i want to photograph in my studio (that i am yet to build, but build it i will).

So my use of the FPS would be purely for landscapes. But not just plain landscapes - i want to get right into pano's. Very serious about this and really want to get the right gear for this. I just love the wide look. Again going off topic but...... check out Ken Duncans book - Australia Wide. I used to work in the prolab that printed all of the original Australia Wide shots to Cibachrome's. Been a convert to wide ever since. So need the right kit for this.

So two things to solve - be able to use lots of different lenses for the kick of using lots of different lenses. And to be able to stitch. I think from what i have read so far, FPS combined with an Alpa 12 STC is the way to go. The main problem i see is focusing. Yeah an IQ 250 would be great for that........

Weight is not a problem hiking. I wont be carrying it. I live in Africa and live a colonial life style. I have a cook, 2 maids, 4 garden boys, 2 drivers and a receptionist. No shortage of staff - here there is a man for every task. Well got a new job opening coming up....... sherpa! oops , wrong continent but you get the idea. So its no hardship to carry lots of gear into the bush. Weight in this case is irrelevant. And before someone jumps down my throat for my attitude - it provides employment and they are thankful and grateful for it in a country where we have 80% unemployment and my back is also grateful for the arrangement!

So thats a number of the boxes ticked.

I agree that nostalgia is not a good reason to invest in any system - but i do know the Rollei 6008 system - if the Hy 6 is half of that body then i cant be going in the wrong direction. I look at the Mamiya bodies and the variants of them and just cant get excited about them - sorry. The Contax is another story....... If Alpa would just bring out an adaptor to mount Contax glass to the FPS..i'd buy a boat load of Contax glass in a heart beat!

From experience, i know i really like a waist level finder - just the way i like to work. Which other modern digital control MF body is out there that provides this? It seems to me that the Hy6 is the way to go. But it does present difficulties with the only back going on it being leaf Afi mount. And this is my dilemma.

I would like to get a Hy6 and a FPS as the serious bodies to work with. Sure, a Leaf back in Afi mounts to both - but then i miss the focus mask on the Phase back. So i guess it all comes down to choosing the focus mask back and losing the Hy6 -OR- go the Hy6 route and lose the focus mask.

Have I got this right? After all the reading and research i have done that's my take on it - but i might be missing a vital piece of the puzzle somewhere??

Re the back - i am not ready to dive in at the deep end just yet. Having zero experience on these backs i thought something a bit tamer to start off with - the threads on fat pixel backs look interesting - so looking at getting a P25+ for that. Not very expensive these days so no biggie there at all. I think 60MP makes the most sense , hence looking at the Aptus II 10 - although i would REALLY prefer the R version.

Can the Aptus II 10 be converted to an Afi R version?

If i spend big on a back i think it will be for an IQ250. When push comes to shove, the FPS camera is what its all about - so i might have to settle for a lower end back on the Hy6 and go the top end back on the FPS....maybe this is my only choice?

 

[young'ee]

Gerald,

Thanks for your input. I have been reading all your posts this last week. I would love to know all about the FPS - this looks to be a fantastic system!

My main purpose of the tech cam is for landscapes in pano format. From what i have been able to understand, on the Alpa system the way to get this is to use the FPS as a shutter and the STC as the stitch mechanism. Is this correct?

The concern is, if i needed to go that way to get stitch (and my understanding is i do) then do we lose the ability to mount all sorts of lenses?

The charm to me (at least at this point) in the FPS is to be able to mount many different lenses.

However a very decent pano system comes first on my list.


I just dont know enough about Alpa and where i live there is zero chance of getting my hands on one.

Thanks

 

[young'ee]

Fotografz - lets talk - definitely in the market for an RZ II-D system.

You say an entire system? Is that ALL lenses for this system?

 

[young'ee]

Hi Ken,

Yeah an S2 - never even considered that. Definitely like-a-Leica

Ahhhhhhh ! So many choices - but i guess thats only a good thing.

Re the Hassy stuff - i've been put off by all the talk of the closed system.

I wonder if Alpa have plans to mount the S2 lenses?

 

[jerome_m]

Re the Hassy stuff - i've been put off by all the talk of the closed system.

The only thing that is closed about the Hasselblad system is that the cameras do not accept third party backs and even that is less true with the new H4x. You can use the Hasselblad backs on technical cameras, if this is your question.

(I am just a happy Hasselblad H3D user, I don't sell cameras.)

 

[dougpeterson]

Geesh Gerald, grumpy this morning? That's a rather unwarranted attack on my character. As the OP notes the weight you gave for the FPS would not include the shift needed for traditional shift-stitching with a tech lens. Add an STC for shift and a TS adapter for when tilt is desired and the system is - relative to other tech cameras including the STC by itself - more to carry around. Whether this is an issue for the OP is entirely up to him - some very good photographers carried 8x10 cameras and film holders across mountains (then again, I suspect if given the choice at the time of a smaller but equally capable system they would have gladly used it) and there are some workaround options including rotate-and-stitch and using Canon TS glass (or other TS glass) to do the shift. Perhaps with your extensive Alpa experience you could spend more time helping the OP and less time attacking me?

FPS is a nice concept and a great solution to some problems. I wish Arca/Cambo had a similar unit in addition to Alpa/Hartblei.

 

[dougpeterson]

I just dont know enough about Alpa and where i live there is zero chance of getting my hands on one.

Where do you live? Maybe a forum member lives nearby - stranger things have happened. Or do you ever travel? Whether to Berlin, New York, LA, Hong Kong or any other major international city there should be ways to get your hands on the gear being discussed - I really think hands on is the only way to evaluate your options fully.

 

[young'ee]

Doug,

I think you are right - to get the stitch i want i need the STC - i covered this in a post i wrote to answer your reply to me - it was a mini novel reply so it looks like the GetDPI GODs must not have liked a 10,000 word reply .......

 

[young'ee]

Doug,

I am in Africa. Right in the middle. South of Congo, North of Zimbabwe.

Dont tell me there is a C.I in the Jungles of Africa ?

 

[young'ee]

Or do you ever travel? Whether to Berlin, New York, LA, Hong Kong or any other major international city

Yeah - i go to Lubumbashi all the time That's in Katanga Province of Congo DR - hairy place though - I've been held up by cops there once or twice - no joke!

 

[jlm]

what i did:

IQ160: for the screen, 60mpx, focus mask, C1 integration, SurfacePro tablet with C1 for tethering
H back so i can use it with my hasselblad H2 for SLR work
Cambo WRS for shifts both ways, with T/S lenses, for tilt and swing.

 

[young'ee]

jlm - got you on that - quickly coming to the realization that several backs may be the way to go. Its all Phase ones fault - if they just did the phase back in Afi mount all would be well.

I am after a fat pixel back as well as a 60MP back so this is a way around the problem - until i want the 60 on the Hy6 for a shoot. Or the other way around.

Takes time for all this to sink in - i don't have the luxury of having worked my way up through the DB's to know all the in's and out's

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Did not like the Hy6 at all functionally. I hit every wrong button on that thing just holding it. What I'm reading though through the several systems your after and putting more empathize on the Alpa FPS as your main setup it sounds like you at least want a Mamiya mount. I also see you want a RZ which frankly eliminates the other DSLR bodies. Maybe think PFS as you tech cam stitching pano solution and the RZ for the DSLR body. If you stay in Mamiya mount you could always switch that out or add a DF+ body as well. I'm partial to Phase backs I had 5 of them and C1 as my software. I would start with the back and build out from there. Either the IQ 260 or new IQ 250 depending on need than get into your FPS system which is supposed to be nice but I never tried it yet. I like the regular tech cams like the Cambo or Alpa pancake bodies both great for stitching and panos. I had the Cambo which I really liked since it gave you all the movements but Alpa is really sweet as well. But I would think along those lines with a Mamiya mount but I maybe bias on that Hy6 as I really did not like it at all feel and function wise. You do need to try these somehow or at least get it down better and maybe you can rent and have it shipped in and rental fees goes towards purchase. Many dealers will do that as well.

 

[dougpeterson]

Doug,

I am in Africa. Right in the middle. South of Congo, North of Zimbabwe.

Dont tell me there is a C.I in the Jungles of Africa ?

I actually work at Digital Transitions (DT) now. I formerly worked at Capture Integration (CI). Both good companies, but neither has offices in Africa. Perhaps CI might be willing to do a shipment to you - DT only does a limited number of international shipments (mostly existing clients); you'd have to ask them. But that does't solve the problem of seeing the gear before you decide which way to go.

We do have many clients visit NYC as a working vacation (visit for a few days, see the sites, try some cameras, if they like them - leave with the cameras). It's a great place to visit in the spring. But I can see that would be a challenge for you - 18 hours of travel to go from Lubumbashi to NYC, not counting the time to get to Lumbumbashi!

You could try the South Africa dealer perhaps – I have no experience with them. But even they are a flight away.

Your best bet is if anyone reading this on the forum is from your neck of the woods, or travels there frequently enough to arrange to meet you. I tried searching the forum but the closest I could find is a user that posted one picture one time from your area - and that user is no longer a member. Perhaps you could search for place names with your much much much better knowledge of your local area. I searched like this.