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Thread: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

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    Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Digital Transitions, just posted this:

    ISO Sweep: IQ250 - DT Blog

    I can't speak to all 35mm DSLR's, however this is far superior to my D800e at even 3200. The file that DT has posted shows that the shadow area on the 6400 image is starting to fall apart, but the parts of the image that are in good light, are very good. 1600 and 3200 look very good.

    It's sad that Phase currently is not offering a competitive upgrade/downgrade/whatever grade from the 260 to this back. Seeing this comparison, I could easily part with 10MP to have the range this chip has. Tech camera shifting is another issue, but that is something that needs to be tested more, and hopefully in an outdoor environment. I would like to see more tests with the 40mm Rod, and the 60mm Schneider.

    Long term, it's clear Sony has quite a lead in chip technology. If they are working with Phase One on a full frame that handles tech shifts that would be excellent, however I have to wonder if the next chip will come from Dalsa. They don't have the same history with CMOS (at least in this market) so the question will be can they get the same amazing DR.

    Kudos to Phase One, this is quite a back.

    Paul Caldwell
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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    I fail to be impressed. It is good, but not better than a D800 at 1600-3200. There is a hint of banding in the shades at 1600 and up. The noise reduction gives a strong watercolour effect. Even at iso 100, the shades are noisy.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    I've got a set of shots outside at nighttime from 100 ISO/20 seconds all the way to 6400 ISO.

    The 400 ISO shot I've posted here and is also on ALPA's front page right now. If anyone is interested in the RAWs (for personal investigation only of course), let me know.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Jerome,

    Before you make any conclusions I suggest you compare a 30x40 print (or a 8x10 crop from a 30x40 inch file) made by a D800 and an IQ250 with your preferred processing and noise reduction settings.

    PM me for matched raw files if you wish to do such a comparison.

    Of course because the reason having good ISO1600/3200 on an IQ250 is important is NOT to "beat" a D800 in super low light (IQ would have no f/1.X lenses, no IS, can't focus on a black cat in a coal mine) but rather so that someone who wants to shoot medium format (for all the other pros/cons) need not be afraid to continue shooting with it when they hit ISO800.

    As a side note, the JPGs were made with shadow recovery, highlight recovery, and exposure/contrast adjustments. Feel free to request the raws to make your own adjustments and analysis.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    PM me for matched raw files if you wish to do such a comparison.
    You mean you took the same picture with the IQ250 and a D800? Else, how are we supposed to compare "matched raw files"?

    I any case, if that can please you, I would expect the IQ250 to be better than the D800 on prints. The technology is similar (Sony) and the sensor is almost twice as big so it should collect almost twice as much light. So it should be a bit less than 1 eV better. This is good, but not revolutionary and not enough to compensate for the absence of f/1.4 lenses.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Nice shot, Gerald.

    I've probably missed another post, but what is your considered first hand opinion of the IQ250 compared to your IQ260? (I think that's the back you usually use?) Always good to get a real users perspective on things.

    I wish I could afford a DMF back and to test myself, but alas that day is a while off. The arrival of my daughter in February has put a few things in perspective. In the mean time, I will stick to using my Techno with Kodak Portra and scanning with my Imacon 949. I will say though that some generous forum members supplied me with some Hasselblad CFV-50 files to look at and they were stunning, both in terms of detail and colour, even at relatively long exposures. I always thought 60mpx would be my magic resolution, but looking at these samples 50mpx would probably be good enough. I can imagine that the IQ250 would be the perfect back for a good many people here, it's just that there is an overwhelming number of technical camera users on these forums who, understandably, are focusing on the micro lenses on the sensor that might negate it's usefulness in their particular workflow. Whether that be a perceived or real problem, there's not a lot to dislike about the IQ250. And who knows, maybe there'll be a microlensless chip released soon?

    Back to Gerald's shot, I guess this is the perfect example of what this back should and does excel at and why the Alpa FPS might just be the technical camera platform of the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    I've got a set of shots outside at nighttime from 100 ISO/20 seconds all the way to 6400 ISO.

    The 400 ISO shot I've posted here and is also on ALPA's front page right now. If anyone is interested in the RAWs (for personal investigation only of course), let me know.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Nice shot, Gerald.

    I've probably missed another post, but what is your considered first hand opinion of the IQ250 compared to your IQ260? (I think that's the back you usually use?) Always good to get a real users perspective on things.

    I wish I could afford a DMF back and to test myself, but alas that day is a while off. The arrival of my daughter in February has put a few things in perspective. In the mean time, I will stick to using my Techno with Kodak Portra and scanning with my Imacon 949. I will say though that some generous forum members supplied me with some Hasselblad CFV-50 files to look at and they were stunning, both in terms of detail and colour, even at relatively long exposures. I always thought 60mpx would be my magic resolution, but looking at these samples 50mpx would probably be good enough. I can imagine that the IQ250 would be the perfect back for a good many people here, it's just that there is an overwhelming number of technical camera users on these forums who, understandably, are focusing on the micro lenses on the sensor that might negate it's usefulness in their particular workflow. Whether that be a perceived or real problem, there's not a lot to dislike about the IQ250. And who knows, maybe there'll be a microlensless chip released soon?

    Back to Gerald's shot, I guess this is the perfect example of what this back should and does excel at and why the Alpa FPS might just be the technical camera platform of the future.
    Hiya -

    Nope, you've not missed a post...

    I only had an hour or so to test the back - mine (well, work's) should arrive next week so I'll be able to really put it through its paces then.

    For me, the key thing about this back is not so much that it solves problems, but creates new opportunities.

    If you don't need to shoot with the wide tech lenses, and are comfortable using the Canon TS-E's on the FPS instead (I have NOT had sufficient time to test this properly), then I'd say it was the perfect MFDB.


    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

    /edit
    Files are now on Dropbox.

    CF000217 - ISO100, 20 seconds
    CF000218 - ISO200, 10 seconds
    CF000219 - ISO400, 5 seconds
    CF000220 - ISO800, 3 seconds
    CF000221 - ISO1600, 1.5 seconds
    CF000222 - ISO3200, 0.7 seconds
    CF000223 - ISO6400, 0.3 seconds

    This was a personal test focusing very much on a specific personal requirement, so I can't guarantee they'll address anyone else's specific needs, but they may be of interest.
    Last edited by gerald.d; 20th March 2014 at 02:55.
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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Files are now on Dropbox - I'm not familiar with the tool, but I think you need to PM me your email address in order for me to share them.
    Assuming you have the Dropbox program installed, you just go into the Dropbox folder where the files are stored, right-click on each file and select "copy public link" with the blue box next to it. Once you've copied a link, you can select the associated text (e.g CF000217 - ISO100, 20 seconds) and paste the link in using the blue globe icon in the post tools, then people can download the file just by clicking on the text.
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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Thanks - post updated with a link to the folder.
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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Gerald, what lens/aperture is it in your test shots? Incredible amount of detail.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Gerald, what lens/aperture is it in your test shots? Incredible amount of detail.
    Canon 24mm TS-E

    I think it was f/13. could have been f/11 though - sorry, should have taken a note!

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Thanks - post updated with a link to the folder.
    I guess you could do it like that too Will be checking these out as the DT examples didn't really do anything for me what with all the plastic noise reduction.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    You are on the wrong forum my friend. People on here are not looking for iso performance... We see the detail and small differences that set our work as photographers apart from others. The small difference that even clients may never see, but the differences that make us proud to work with medium format.

    The IQ250 is a step forward for medium format users. Its not necessarily a step that is meant to move 35mm users to medium format, but rather a step to give medium format users a little more than they had before.

    I would personally never give up my medium format look for 1.4 lenses nor high iso. But that's just me

    I'll take the look of my 90HR at f5.6 over any 1.4 lens available on the market. Yea I can't shoot it in the dark, but I can't see in the dark neither

    And as a last note, I can shoot 1.2 with the IQ250!!!! ... Thank You Alpa FPS!

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    You mean you took the same picture with the IQ250 and a D800? Else, how are we supposed to compare "matched raw files"?

    I any case, if that can please you, I would expect the IQ250 to be better than the D800 on prints. The technology is similar (Sony) and the sensor is almost twice as big so it should collect almost twice as much light. So it should be a bit less than 1 eV better. This is good, but not revolutionary and not enough to compensate for the absence of f/1.4 lenses.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    I'd love to be able to afford the upgrade from my P45+ to this back to shoot some star trails and some low light stuff with my 100 f2.2.. It'd probably be pretty amazing at doing both. It's around 26k to upgrade to from a P45+ though, huh?
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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by shortpballer View Post
    You are on the wrong forum my friend. People on here are not looking for iso performance... We see the detail and small differences that set our work as photographers apart from others. The small difference that even clients may never see, but the differences that make us proud to work with medium format.
    I am not looking for high iso performance. I am perfectly happy with iso 50.

    I just failed to be impressed by the IQ250, that's all. I failed to be impressed on detail and small differences...

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Would you guys be kind enough to put 'Cross Posted" in the subject when the same thread (with the same comments!) is also posted on another forum (Luminous Landscape in this case).

    Thank you and have a nice day.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Hey thats a scary place over there too many monsters. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Hiya -

    Nope, you've not missed a post...

    I only had an hour or so to test the back - mine (well, work's) should arrive next week so I'll be able to really put it through its paces then.

    For me, the key thing about this back is not so much that it solves problems, but creates new opportunities.

    If you don't need to shoot with the wide tech lenses, and are comfortable using the Canon TS-E's on the FPS instead (I have NOT had sufficient time to test this properly), then I'd say it was the perfect MFDB.


    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

    /edit
    Files are now on Dropbox.

    CF000217 - ISO100, 20 seconds
    CF000218 - ISO200, 10 seconds
    CF000219 - ISO400, 5 seconds
    CF000220 - ISO800, 3 seconds
    CF000221 - ISO1600, 1.5 seconds
    CF000222 - ISO3200, 0.7 seconds
    CF000223 - ISO6400, 0.3 seconds

    This was a personal test focusing very much on a specific personal requirement, so I can't guarantee they'll address anyone else's specific needs, but they may be of interest.
    Thanks for posting those up. I downloaded them all and opened them up in C1P7. They looked superb. The base iso one (iso 100) looked amazing. Very deep file. Super clean shadows. Perfect night cityscape location for a test. I mean, this is the type of shot high iso is not necessary since everyone that takes this shot will be using a tripod and base iso but it really gives one an idea of the high iso capability of the IQ250.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Base ISO is no good for that shot when you're looking to take an image every 15 seconds

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Base ISO is no good for that shot when you're looking to take an image every 15 seconds
    iso200 was very very close. Up to iso 800 was quite clean after that color noise was pretty high. I removed all noise reduction. The color noise reduction in C1 worked very well though. Of course the image starts loosing detail as one goes up in iso but it is very gradual up to iso 800.

    For people shots I would NOT feel uncomfortable using iso 1600 or even 3200. Amazing for a 50mp MFDB.

    I too was surprised at the edge to edge detail of the 17mm TS-E. Wow. A bargain of a lens since it is basically a Medium Format Super Wide angle in 35mm clothing. Shame that NONE of the Medium Format Camera/Lens manufacturers have ever made a lens like this. And for $2500. There is no excuse.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    iso200 was very very close. Up to iso 800 was quite clean after that color noise was pretty high. I removed all noise reduction. The color noise reduction in C1 worked very well though. Of course the image starts loosing detail as one goes up in iso but it is very gradual up to iso 800.

    For people shots I would NOT feel uncomfortable using iso 1600 or even 3200. Amazing for a 50mp MFDB.

    I too was surprised at the edge to edge detail of the 17mm TS-E. Wow. A bargain of a lens since it is basically a Medium Format Super Wide angle in 35mm clothing. Shame that NONE of the Medium Format Camera/Lens manufacturers have ever made a lens like this. And for $2500. There is no excuse.
    I agree, the ISO6400 sample at 100% looks about as good as my 5D2 at 1600 but without the banding, and this is on a sensor with over twice the pixels!
    If one were to normalize the resolution, I'd say ISO6400 is a very shootable setting and will look basically noise-free up to A2 print size.

    Regarding the TS-E, I see a sort of "crunchiness" to the pixel structure at 100% on all ISO levels, and I'm not sure why it's there. I've seen it on occasion before when using the 24-70 II wide open, but not on any of my primes, so it could be something about the lens characteristics. But yes, the edge detail is there, and in fact, appears to look better than in the center of the image.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Canon 24mm TS-E

    I think it was f/13. could have been f/11 though - sorry, should have taken a note!
    Sorry, losing my mind. It was the 17, not the 24.

    (for some reason I can't seem to edit the original post)

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Digital Transitions, just posted this:

    ISO Sweep: IQ250 - DT Blog

    It's sad that Phase currently is not offering a competitive upgrade/downgrade/whatever grade from the 260 to this back. Seeing this comparison, I could easily part with 10MP to have the range this chip has.
    ...
    Long term, it's clear Sony has quite a lead in chip technology. ....

    Kudos to Phase One, this is quite a back.

    Paul Caldwell
    Who knows what Sony is cooking, if this becomes true...

    (SR3) Surprising rumor: First hints about a Sony medium format camera? | sonyalpharumors

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    It will be interesting to see what comes from that.

    A Sony A99 type DSLR with this chip would be great for Sony owners but not for me with with a Nikon System.

    Would Sony come out with a RX1 type camera fixed lens? it would be easier to produce and would not need a PN entire new line of lenses.

    Rumored cost of the currency 50MP CHIP IS 2.5 to 3K so this would put this camera in the 6K range unless Sony gets the fab process simplified thus cheaper.

    If the put it in the A7r body or similar, they have a few problems to work out first.

    Paul

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    To compete with a Leica S???

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by chkproductions View Post
    To compete with a Leica S???
    Not unless it somehow took Leica CS lenses which is the reason for having a S system IMO.

    That would be great for me, a 50 meg camera with LV, and a fully functional AF adapter for CS lenses @ $6 to $8K

    It'll be a frosty day in Hades when that happens.

    - Marc

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Not unless it somehow took Leica CS lenses … which is the reason for having a S system IMO.

    That would be great for me, a 50 meg camera with LV, and a fully functional AF adapter for CS lenses @ $6 to $8K

    It'll be a frosty day in Hades when that happens.

    - Marc
    Considering the a7(R) is a lens adapter's dream, due to it being a mirrorless camera, I don't see why the rumored MF Sony couldn't have a kitchen sink worth of adaptability. The sensor size is very similar, so I wouldn't be surprised if S lenses had full coverage, most lenses have over-provisioned image circles after all. Watch the used prices on MF glass
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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Considering the a7(R) is a lens adapter's dream, due to it being a mirrorless camera, I don't see why the rumored MF Sony couldn't have a kitchen sink worth of adaptability. The sensor size is very similar, so I wouldn't be surprised if S lenses had full coverage, most lenses have over-provisioned image circles after all. Watch the used prices on MF glass
    Yeah, I think the image circle would likely cover the Sony sensor. What is less likely is someone reverse engineereing the S mount with data bus connections for operating the Leica Central Shutter CS lenses, and all the other auto operations. The numbers probably wouldn't justify the cost. Also, the S being a relatively new mount, I wonder if anyone could legally do that anyway?

    On the other hand, a Mirror-Less MFD camera that took the Leica CS lenses would actually be better than the S DSLR type camera that requires the Mirror to be moved out of the way, and the focal plane shutter opened before the leaf-shutter fires thus negating the quieter, less vibration prone leaf-shutter advantage.

    - Marc

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yeah, I think the image circle would likely cover the Sony sensor.
    The 33x44 image circle is 55 mm, Leica Pro Format is 54, so this shouldn't be a (large) problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What is less likely is someone reverse engineereing the S mount with data bus connections for operating the Leica Central Shutter CS lenses, and all the other auto operations. The numbers probably wouldn't justify the cost.
    Leica did reverse engineer the protocols, I think someone else could do it too?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Also, the S being a relatively new mount, I wonder if anyone could legally do that anyway?
    Hasselblad H is relatively young too, I guess in Europe there's no legal objection to doing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    On the other hand, a Mirror-Less MFD camera that took the Leica CS lenses would actually be better than the S DSLR type camera that requires the Mirror to be moved out of the way, and the focal plane shutter opened before the leaf-shutter fires thus negating the quieter, less vibration prone leaf-shutter advantage.
    I've been thinking about that too with the - probably - CMOS sensor in the upcoming S. For CMOS live view the mirror would have to be up and the FP shutter would already have to be open, so with un electronic first curtain shutter, the leaf (CS) shutter would only have to close to end exposure. After which the FP shutter would have to open again for live view, but then the image is already in the can, so to speak. So this new CMOS S may be more quiet and have - even less - vibration.
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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yeah, I think the image circle would likely cover the Sony sensor. What is less likely is someone reverse engineereing the S mount with data bus connections for operating the Leica Central Shutter CS lenses, and all the other auto operations. The numbers probably wouldn't justify the cost. Also, the S being a relatively new mount, I wonder if anyone could legally do that anyway?

    -/-

    - Marc
    So Leica reverse-engineering the H mount is okay, but the S lenses are off-limits? That would be one heck of a double standard...

    Sigma and Tamron also R-E'd the Canon and Nikon mounts for their lenses, which incidentally, neither company offers the source specifications for as well. So long as the third parties call their stabilization and AF drive systems differently, and don't blatantly copy them, I don't think anyone minds. If anything, they help sell more cameras because not everyone can afford native lenses, and I reckon camera bodies have a much larger profit margin on them than lenses.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Giving the CMOS S with CS a bit more thought, I guess in live-view mode the FP shutter would not come into play with shutter speeds up to 1/1000. This could make for a nice and quiet exposure without any vibration from the mirror and FP shutter.

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    Re: Give Phase One their due--IQ250 high iso examples on DT blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    I too was surprised at the edge to edge detail of the 17mm TS-E. Wow. A bargain of a lens since it is basically a Medium Format Super Wide angle in 35mm clothing. Shame that NONE of the Medium Format Camera/Lens manufacturers have ever made a lens like this. And for $2500. There is no excuse.
    I agree that it is an amazingly capable lens at any price, and at a price of $2500, it's even better.

    However, there is one excuse for the medium format manufacturers not coming up with something similar: flange to focal plane distance. For all the medium format 645 SLRs, this distance is around 50% longer than for a Canon, which makes designing decent rectlinear ultra-wideangles considerably more difficult. Fisheyes are less trouble (hence the excellent Mamiya 24mm).

    Ray

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