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Thread: IQ160 tiling issue

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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    IQ160 tiling issue

    I have some trouble with lines / tiling on my brand new IQ160.

    The attached image (100% crop) are shot with a DF+ / 80mm LS lens
    When developing the RAW file in Capture One 7.2 I get the issue as you can see on the left
    When delevoping the RAW files in Lightroom there is no issue as you can see on the right.

    Also especially when developing the RAWs in Capture One the edges of the image looks somewhat weird as you can see on the second pic.

    I have done a clean uninstall and reinstall of Capture One 7.2 which didn't make any difference at all.

    I'm not unfamiliar with issues like tiling / lines in the image when using a tech cam and Schneider wides and usually LCC takes care of it, but to see it with the DF+ and 80 LS is new to me and seeing it in C1 but not in Lightroom is strange.

    I assume it's some kind of calibration issue and will contact my dealer on Monday, but just want to hear if any on the forum have experienced something similar and if so what was done about it.

    I got the back with Value Added Warranty, so don't know if they will simply replace the back.

    Thanks
    Peter



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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I had the same issue shown in your first image occur with IQ260. In my case, the problem only occurred with shutter speeds greater than 10 seconds. I contacted dealer (Digital Transitions) and sent them a number of images showing the problem. If I recall correctly, the issue was not with the back, but with internal settings in Capture One. They forwarded me a "zone picker" file that when loaded into Capture One eliminated the problem.

    John

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Yes, strange. Contact your dealer. I'm sure they will take care of this right away for you. If you upload the raws to a service like Dropbox that will probably save some time on Monday as your dealer will 99% likely need a raw file to complete the appropriate paperwork and resolve this for you.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Since it is Sunday...

    Try deleting the preference file and restart c1. I have had extensive problems with this issue. Sometimes it requires sending the back for calibration but most of the time it is a problem with C1. On my Mac it was in my local ~/Library/Preferences file called com.phaseone.captureone7.plist. After deleting this file c1 asked a few initial setup questions and the centerfold issue was fixed.

    Thanks to Josh at CI for helping resolve my issue.

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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Thanks John, I hope it is as simple as that.

    Dough, I will do that, thanks.

    Ed, I actually already did that by doing a clean uninstall but will nevertheless try it again..
    Did the issue for you go away on images already in Capture One or only in new images?

    It's extremely frustrating, I just got the back this Friday instead of a Leaf Aptus-II 10 that had an issue they couldn't / wouldn't fix.
    Had to pay a nice chunk of cash extra as well, so this is not what I wanted..
    Maybe I should just stay with my good old Aptus-II 7.

    Peter
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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Here's another example, this one is shot with RZ67 and 140mm lens.



    Ed's suggestion regarding deleting the Capture One .plist file unfortunately didn't change anything...
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Some technical information:

    There are two sources of tiling. 1) the sensor is exposed in multiple tiles during manufacturing which causes slight different pixel properties. You can usually see the tiles when looking at the sensor from the side, the IQ160 has eight tiles, split by one horizontal line and three vertical. 2) the back has multiple amplifiers, the IQ160 has four, one for each quadrant.

    The amplifiers are not exactly the same so they differ a bit. The tiling caused by amplifiers is much stronger than tiling on the sensor, amplifiers can differ as much as 0.1 stop or so. Some digital back formats write a "cooked" calibrated file, so the raw data is already tuned. The IIQ format does not do that, it writes the raw output from the amplifier channels, and calibration data, ie amplifier and sensor properties measured at the factory. This includes the amplifier responses, native sensor color cast and tiling, and sensor defects (partially dead columns etc). I think some of it it's done per ISO in the newer backs but I'm not sure, so it's lots of calibration information.

    With correctly matched and applied calibration data the file should be free from tiling. However, if you increase contrast to an absolute maximum on a plain sky in post-processing some faint tiling will most likely be visible, the eye is very good at detecting tiling so only if there is the tiniest trace left you can see it.

    I'm suspecting that Lightroom / DNG converter uses some statistical method in addition to applying the calibration data. It says in the files where the tiles are, so the raw converter could simply analyze this portion of the file, see if it's a smooth surface there and if it is really make sure that the tile does not show up. There may also be differences in how the calibration data is applied. The calibration data does not have 100% coverage, ie you need to interpolate some values, and possibly Adobe's algorithm may be better than Capture One's. It may be possible to get an answer from Adobe in their forums, the Lightroom programmers are sometimes there and are pretty open, ie if they just apply the calibration data or if they smooth the file further.

    If you convert to DNG with Adobe, you'll get a "cooked" raw file, ie all calibration data applied. So one alternative is to start working with DNG instead. Capture One is not good at DNG though...

    If you work with technical wides tiling can appear because pixels vary a bit in wide angle response between the sensor tiles, ie how much pixel vignetting you get. The calibration data in the file has no information on what the wide angle response is so to avoid tiling with lenses with very short flange distance (like the SK35) you'll need LCC and a good LCC algorithm that in addition to fixing color cast can supress tiling too.
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I would guess that if you work in black-and-white and apply color filters in post-processing, especially supressing green, there's a larger risk that tiling becomes visible.

    When doing black and white with color backs one really do not want to supress green (especially not at shooting time with a filter), as a major portion of the captured information will then disappear. With green channel intact color backs work quite well for black-and-white though.

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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Thanks for the writeup Anders..

    I do indeed make quite a lot of B&W but this issue is present when just making a basic B&W conversion and can also be seen in the color images with very little adjustments albeit to a smaller degree.

    The case is handed over to my dealer and hopefully I'll have an answer soon.

    Peter
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I've looked at Abobe's conversion a bit more and experimented with zeroing some tags etc. It does look like Adobe does additional things to eliminate tiling, ie it applies the calibration data first, and then probably by statistical analysis along the edges it does further refinements. Haven't studied C1 in detail but based on the examples posted above I'd guess that C1 only applies the calibration data and that's it, meaning that if the calibration data is not 100% on the mark, tiling may be visible.

    It depends on who you ask which approach is better. Surely by doing analysis along the edges of the actual image you can always eliminate tiling in full, but you also risk disturbing an edge that is truly there, eg if you happen to line up a vertical feature exactly on the centerfold. I think that with frequency analysis near the edge there should be no risk of harming any real subject though, and probably it's very difficult to make calibration data that is 100% accurate, so additional refinement after applied calibration data may be the way to go.

    Disclaimer: analyzing what really happens inside the converter is not so easy, so there may be some tag magic I've missed, eg maybe Adobe is just applying the tags and no more but does it better than C1. I don't think so though, I'm quite sure that Adobe's better result in this case is due to some Adobe-specific refinement step.

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Bit off the topic, but Torger, you wrote:

    "There are two sources of tiling. 1) the sensor is exposed in multiple tiles during manufacturing which causes slight different pixel properties. You can usually see the tiles when looking at the sensor from the side, the IQ160 has eight tiles, split by one horizontal line and three vertical. 2) the back has multiple amplifiers, the IQ160 has four, one for each quadrant."

    When you say "exposed" in the manufacturing process what does that mean?

    This issue of just how the larger chips are manufactured comes up a lot. I have been told that it's still one single chip i.e baked all at once, but the line are the readouts. You have to have the readouts since they speed up the process of pulling the data off the larger chips.

    I have also read that the actual chip 60 and 80MP takes the image in a series over these readouts and this can also help to cause the tilting as the light can actually vary during the exposure.

    All this is done at the speed of light or near so it's way over my head. Just curious.

    As you and Ed pointed out, the calibration process is very key to the whole image looking good and I believe that each back has a separate calibration but again I don't know for sure.

    Thanks
    Paul

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    One silicon wafer. Exposed in several windows of exposure. With readouts between each window of exposure.

    Each back is individually characterized and calibrated, not just for readout parity.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I got a RAW file from another IQ160 from my dealer and tried converting it to B&W like I normally do. No tiling or centerfold or anything, even with some rather extreme adjustments. So it points towards my back being completely out of whack.
    Still haven't heard anything though..

    As a side note I can tell that the calibration file in my Aptus-II 7 out of the blue got corrupted. When opening the RAW in Capture One or Leaf Capture it looked horrible, but when doing the same in DCRAW which doesn't read the calibration file it looked fine.
    After a new calibration file was loaded all was good again.

    So yes the calibration process is key to the final image.

    Peter
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    Member padams's Avatar
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Had the Exact same problem with my IQ140. Sent it in for repair - which did not fix the issue. Sent in more files and PhaseOne replaced the back with a new one.
    Peter Adams Photography | web: http://www.peteradamsphoto.com | twitter: @peteradamsphoto

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    And the replacement was fine I suppose?

    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by padams View Post
    Had the Exact same problem with my IQ140. Sent it in for repair - which did not fix the issue. Sent in more files and PhaseOne replaced the back with a new one.
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I had this problem, and the back was recalibrated in Denmark, which resolved it.
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    When you say "exposed" in the manufacturing process what does that mean?
    This paper describes the stitching manufacturing process:

    http://www.teledynedalsa.com/public/..._Large_CCD.pdf

    it's one silicon wafer of course, but the stepper moves around in several sections to make the whole chip.
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Call me greedy but I'd love to see a production photography version of the 48x84mm chip. A 6x12 ratio chip would be awesome! Heck, I'd even take a crop down to 6x17.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    This paper describes the stitching manufacturing process:

    http://www.teledynedalsa.com/public/..._Large_CCD.pdf

    it's one silicon wafer of course, but the stepper moves around in several sections to make the whole chip.
    Thanks for that. I've always wondered how they did it ...
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Thank you very much everyone for your comments.

    As said I got a RAW from another IQ160 which doesn't have this issue so I was thinking it could be interesting for me to get some more examples from different IQ160 backs.

    So if some of you have one or two RAW files you can send me via for example Dropbox I would be much appreciated. Preferably images with a lot of sky in it since that's where I mostly have the issue.

    My email is pm (at) petermisfeldt . com

    Peter
    Last edited by Pemihan; 26th March 2014 at 04:28.
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Hello Peter,

    I had a similar issue with my P65+ in the past. The back has been recalibrated by Phase One but the issue was still there. The guys at Phase One told me to try this: insert this string in the name of the raw capture folder "P1#1024-OFF#" to make sure that capture 1 wasn't over correcting the images (if your folder name is "capture" use the name "P1#1024-OFF# capture" instead.
    For me it worked even though the issue was present only in some low contrast black on black images.
    You can give it a try.

    Regards

    Rob

    Roberto Pastrovicchio Photography . Italy . +39 329 9617876 . [email protected]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    Thank you very much everyone for your comments.

    As said I got a RAW from another IQ160 which doesn't have this issue so I was thinking it could be interesting for me to get some more examples from different backs.

    So if some of you have one or two RAW files you can send me via for example Dropbox I would be much appreciated. Preferably images with a lot of sky in it since that's where I mostly have the issue.

    My email is pm (at) petermisfeldt . com

    Peter

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Rob.

    Were you shooting tethered when you had the problem?. Did it happen when you were not tethered? I assumed this because you mention the "capture" folder.

    Thanks
    Paul

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    If you want me to analyze the actual raw file calibration data content I can do it if I get a raw file. I know more than most people outside Phase One about the internals of this format and I should be able to tell if the calibration data seems to be mismatching or not.

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Thanks Anders, I'll send you a PM with a link..
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Paul, it happened both tethered or not. By the way I have used the back a lot in the last months and everything has worked flawlessly, using C1 7.2 at the moment and no issues, however that tip could be useful to try if the problem get back before sending the back to Denmark to recalibrate and using the Canon for the jobs (which I'm not so happy with...)

    Thanks
    Rob



    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Rob.

    Were you shooting tethered when you had the problem?. Did it happen when you were not tethered? I assumed this because you mention the "capture" folder.

    Thanks
    Paul

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Thanks Rob,

    I will try it on a folder and see if it makes a difference.
    As I live less that two miles from Phase One HQ in Denmark it's not a big deal for me to send the back in if needed though :-)
    I would of course prefer to get a back with no issue to start with...

    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by avelpavel View Post
    Paul, it happened both tethered or not. By the way I have used the back a lot in the last months and everything has worked flawlessly, using C1 7.2 at the moment and no issues, however that tip could be useful to try if the problem get back before sending the back to Denmark to recalibrate and using the Canon for the jobs (which I'm not so happy with...)

    Thanks
    Rob
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Over at Lula I asked Adobe developers if their products (ACR, Lightroom, DNG converter) does additional processing to supress tiling after calibration data has been applied, and Eric (Chan) confirmed that they do, just as I suspected after studying the software's behaviour.

    It seems Capture One does not do that, which means that if you want the best tiling supression there is you should currently use Adobe's products. Hopefully Phose One will improve their algorithm though in future C1 releases. Currently it will depend how well the back's calibration data lines up with the actual sensor behavior, which will be different from back to back.

    The IIQ format calibration data tags have limited resolution so it's impossible to make a 100% perfect match, and for some sensors the error will be larger than others. For normal use it should be no problem, but in for example black-and-white post-processing there can be very strong contrast increases that will make tiny error visible, and then you probably need some luck to get a back which has a sensor that calibrates well with the current tag format, or use Lightroom and wait until Phase One hopefully improves their algorithm. Not sure how many that runs into a tiling issue in practical use though, I suspect only a few, so those that do probably need to shout loud to get the improvement in there.

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Over at Lula I asked Adobe developers if their products (ACR, Lightroom, DNG converter) does additional processing to supress tiling after calibration data has been applied, and Eric (Chan) confirmed that they do, just as I suspected after studying the software's behaviour.

    It seems Capture One does not do that, which means that if you want the best tiling supression there is you should currently use Adobe's products. Hopefully Phose One will improve their algorithm though in future C1 releases. Currently it will depend how well the back's calibration data lines up with the actual sensor behavior, which will be different from back to back.

    The IIQ format calibration data tags have limited resolution so it's impossible to make a 100% perfect match, and for some sensors the error will be larger than others. For normal use it should be no problem, but in for example black-and-white post-processing there can be very strong contrast increases that will make tiny error visible, and then you probably need some luck to get a back which has a sensor that calibrates well with the current tag format, or use Lightroom and wait until Phase One hopefully improves their algorithm. Not sure how many that runs into a tiling issue in practical use though, I suspect only a few, so those that do probably need to shout loud to get the improvement in there.
    Interesting - thanks for looking into this.

    My IQ180 went back to Copenhagen for recalibration. Came back, and I still have issues in certain situations. Response from Phase One is that it is correctly calibrated, so I'm not entirely happy about the situation.

    I'll dig out an old problem file and see how it behaves with Lightroom.

    /edit

    Wow. No issues in Lightroom - I've tried my best, but cannot force visibility of the tiling no matter how hard I push the file. It's clearly visible in Capture One on default settings, and only goes downhill from there.

    It's crazy to think my IQ180 went back to Copenhagen, was recalibrated, and came back still with an issue, when all it (seemingly) takes to fix the problem is software.

    Yes - I know software is complicated, but this needs fixing.
    Last edited by gerald.d; 9th April 2014 at 08:13.

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Note that if you are using a technical wide angle you'll get slight behavior change, with the light falling in at an angle the sensor tiles will change their pixel vignetting by different amounts. This means that even if calibration data is perfect for perpendicular light (which I assume they calibrate for) it won't match for tech wides.

    For a tech wide shot you would be using LCC for the color cast though, and I'd guess that tiling suppression in C1 works differently and possibly better with LCC applied, but I don't know.

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Note that if you are using a technical wide angle you'll get slight behavior change, with the light falling in at an angle the sensor tiles will change their pixel vignetting by different amounts. This means that even if calibration data is perfect for perpendicular light (which I assume they calibrate for) it won't match for tech wides.

    For a tech wide shot you would be using LCC for the color cast though, and I'd guess that tiling suppression in C1 works differently and possibly better with LCC applied, but I don't know.
    Edited my post whilst you were writing that I suspect.

    The image that I'm looking at was actually shot with the Canon 17mm TS-E - no LCC available.

    Happy to share it if you're interested.

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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Yes, thanks Anders for looking further into this. Obviously you were right that Adobe use some kind of tiling suppression besides the calibration data. Phase One need to implement something like that in Capture One as well and better sooner than later.

    Most of the time I have no tiling issues when using Lightroom, but instead I often get a thin horisontal line running through the center of the image but that is way easier to get rid of in Photoshop.

    I'm also having the issue with other cameras and lenses besides my tech cam such as DF+ with 80LS and 120mm and RZ67 with various lenses.
    I got a loaner back which is better but also have the issue albeit to a lesser degree.

    Still in the process to get it solved.

    Peter
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I've had a look at Gerald's problematic TS-E 17 IQ180 file using the development version of RawTherapee where I've recently added IIQ calibration data support (I've reverse-engineered the most important IIQ format calibration tags, sent a patch to Dave Coffin too so hopefully it will get into next version of dcraw and thus into most third-party software in time, any Dalsa-sensor Phase One back needs this).

    The strange thing is that even when I really mistreat the file and increase contrast and clarity to obscene levels I can't make the line visible. RawTherapee does not have any additional tiling suppression step, like Lightroom is supposed to have. It just applies the calibration tags and that's it.

    This indicates that there is nothing wrong with the file but rather some sort of bug in the current version of Capture One so that calibration data is applied in the wrong way. I can't say that for sure though, because I've only reverse-engineered the most important calibration tags and the ones Lightroom seems to be using. There is additional data too of unknown format that could be just legacy backwards compatibility stuff not used today, or it could be some fine-tuning tags used by Capture One which might make things worse rather than better if that data is not good.

    Oh, did I say that this concept of proprietary undocumented file formats suck?
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Dear Torger,

    I have seen the tiling issue on my IQ180 using 32HR on my Cambo.

    However, I find the problem to be much worse on LR than with C1.

    LR is my raw developer of choice, and I only use C1 due to the IQ180 performs better with C1.

    In addition, with LR I get a kind of "ripple" problem in blue sky when the HR32 is shifted.

    Looks to me like uneven column gain/sensitivity, and is present in the last two tiles in the direction opposite of the shift.

    This problem is corrected in C1 once the preview is generated.

    If you pm me, I can send you LCC shots from IQ180 and HR32.

    Best regards

    Trond

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    PM'd, I'd surely like to look at the files! This issue is puzzling indeed... results seem to be all over the map. So the best current advice if you get bad results in C1 try LR, and if you get bad results in LR try C1

    Does the ripple effect look like this?



    Then it is a micro-lens issue (it has strongest effect on blue light), more details:
    Knowledge base for Phase One and Mamiya Leaf users

    Possibly C1 LCC algorithm corrects for that, and LR's maybe not. I guess you need to apply LCC to get rid of the ripple issue?

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Dear Torger,

    Yes, the ripple looks like the example above.

    In C1 it is visible only for a few seconds, and goes away once the preview is generated, even without LCC.

    In LR, the ripple remains in the processed image.

    B R

    Trond

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    The "Ripple" is corrected in Capture One when using the "Wide Angle" option in the C1's LCC tool.

    I do not agree with Torger. I strongly suggest tech camera users should use C1 rather than LR wherever possible. If you are not getting excellent results (i.e. good color, no ripples, no tiling) with supported lenses in C1 with a proper LCC then it's a warranty issue that should be followed up with your dealer. The solution is not to switch to LR to mask the underlying issue, the solution is to eliminate the underlying issue.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Dear Doug,

    I agree with you, C1 does a fantastic job on the IQ180 and HR32 compared to LR.

    The "ripple" is corrected in C1 immediately as the preview is generated, even without the LCC.

    B R

    Trond

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    The "Ripple" is corrected in Capture One when using the "Wide Angle" option in the C1's LCC tool.

    I do not agree with Torger. I strongly suggest tech camera users should use C1 rather than LR wherever possible. If you are not getting excellent results (i.e. good color, no ripples, no tiling) with supported lenses in C1 with a proper LCC then it's a warranty issue that should be followed up with your dealer. The solution is not to switch to LR to mask the underlying issue, the solution is to eliminate the underlying issue.
    Where does one get a list of "supported lenses" (presumably this list varies by back)?

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I can of course not disagree with that it's desirable that C1 works well in all situations, we'd all like that. But apparently there are issues in some situations, and apparently Phase One has not always been able to solve the issue in cases where it indeed works in LR out of the box.

    If some backs have a sensor+calibration data combination that triggers a C1 software bug, which seems likely from my observations so far, it will take time for it to trickle down to developers to get the issue solved, and a photographer may need to deliver now. In that case trying LR and see if it works is a good idea, as there are multiple examples of that working.

    I do recommend all owners that see this problem to report it to dealer / Phase One of course, they like any software developer need feedback to find out that the issue exists and raw data to be able to solve it. The more users that report it, the more likely it will be fixed.

    From the observations I've made so far it's a bit hard to pin down exactly what the problem is though (it could be more than one problem), and I think Phase One have the same difficulty, that's why some that send in for recalibration can get something back that still doesn't work.

  40. #40
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Where does one get a list of "supported lenses" (presumably this list varies by back)?
    It's a bit hard to produce such a list for technical wide angles, as it's not an on/off thing, and there's a lot of "it depends". I guess that's why there's no widely available list.

    When a tech wide is shifted you get various types of degradations, vignetting, color cast, microlens shading (ripple effect, seen on mainly IQ180, but also on IQ160 to some extent), crosstalk (color desaturation). With software and LCC you can to a large extent compensate for these effects. With improved algorithms, you can get better compensation, ie improve support.

    It becomes much a matter of taste, how far one think one can shift and push these compensation algorithms and still be pleased with the result.

    The discussion about the "usable image circle" of the early IQ250 tech cam tests was an illustrating example where there were various opinions of how much crosstalk/desaturation one could accept.

  41. #41
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    It's a bit hard to produce such a list for technical wide angles, as it's not an on/off thing, and there's a lot of "it depends". I guess that's why there's no widely available list.
    The clear statement though is that there is such a thing.

    There are supported lenses where, if you get problems such as the ones being discussed in this thread, "then it's a warranty issue that should be followed up with your dealer."

    I use three different Phase One backs, and use lots of different lenses on them. It would be useful to know which lenses are officially supported on which backs, so that I could identify when/if I have an issue that is supposed to be dealt with under warranty.

    Perhaps it's the list that appears in the Lens Correction Profile drop-down in Capture One?

    But if that's the case, then not a single tech lens is supported, and yet tech cam owners are being strongly urged to use Capture One and not Lightroom.

    Personally, I'd far rather use Capture One than Lightroom and am generally extremely happy with the way it works. If this investigation leads to Phase One fixing some apparent bugs - despite the fact those bugs are occurring with unsupported lenses, then that can only be a good thing.

    Doug would seem to be implying that the underlying issue is use of unsupported lenses. Personally, one of the defining USP's of the three Phase One digital backs that I use on a regular basis is that I can use them with a wide variety of lenses.

    The 17 TSE may well not be supported, but if it wasn't possible to use it with the IQ250, then the IQ250 would never have been purchased.

    You would appear to have identified a bug in the way the file I sent you is processed by Capture One.

    It would be great if that bug could be fixed, because that bug IS the underlying issue.

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Well, as stated earlier I'm having the issue with lenses like the 80mm LS and 120mm macro on DF+ and I would think those lenses are on the "supported list" ;-)

    Also having the issue on my Cambo and Rodie 40HR which I just got as replacement for my SK35XL.
    The 40HR should be on the supported list as well, at least I was told to get Rodies for wides in order to not have issues.

    As a side not I can tell that with my Aptus-II 7 on tech cam I also often have issues in Capture One, even after applying LCC whereas in Leaf Capture there's usually none at all.

    Peter
    Last edited by Pemihan; 10th April 2014 at 10:52.
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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    As far as I'm aware the only Phase One provided list is here:
    Knowledge base for Phase One and Mamiya Leaf users

    As you can see it has not been updated in a while, as primary support for Phase One is deferred to the dealer network.

    You can find our list on our Tech Camera Overview page which is based on extensive in house testing and extensive feedback from our large base of tech camera customers.

    A great example of an unsupported lens+back combo is the 35XL with the IQ180. This [back+lens] combo is not supported and residual color cast or tiling experienced when using that combo is not a warranty issue.

    We don't sell Alpa and don't maintain a list of compatible dSLR lenses, but if we did the 17TS would be listed as compatible.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    We don't sell Alpa and don't maintain a list of compatible dSLR lenses, but if we did the 17TS would be listed as compatible.
    Ok, so this is great news. The Canon 17mm TS-E is a supported lens for Phase One backs.

    "If you are not getting excellent results (i.e. good color, no ripples, no tiling) with supported lenses in C1 with a proper LCC then it's a warranty issue that should be followed up with your dealer. The solution is not to switch to LR to mask the underlying issue, the solution is to eliminate the underlying issue."

    Clearly an LCC with this lens is not something that many people could accomplish.

    Taking that into consideration, would it be correct to surmise that, if one were to get unacceptable tiling issues in Capture One, that do not exist when processing with Lightroom, then the underlying issue is indeed what has been discussed all along - a bug in Capture One?

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I would recommend following up with your dealer to examine the issue you are having.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I would recommend following up with your dealer to examine the issue you are having.
    I did.

    That file was created after my back had been sent to Copenhagen for recalibration.

    Phase One's response through my dealer after examining the file was "Shift with wide angle can exasperate the situation due to the angle of light. Some lenses are not recommended for this reason."

    So perhaps you can understand why I would agree with torger's assessment that there is a bug in the way that Capture One is processing this file. After all, I don't get the same problem when processing with Lightroom.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    It can be a long distance from dealer to software developer. I'm sure if the person that has written C1's LCC algorithm got Gerald's file he or she would in a couple of hours find out what the problem is. It's not rocket science for one who has the right knowledge.

    The dealer/support chain is supposed to not involve developers though unless absolutely necessary, which means that in order for something to happen the support chain must figure out by themselves that it is a software problem that should be filed as a bug report. If they take in the back and run it through the standard tests it will probably pass, which is probably why nothing happens. I wonder if Phase One office ever got Gerald's file for analysis, or if it just bounced at the dealer?

    The TS-E 17 is a strongly retrofocus lens, there should be no wide-angle tech lens issues at all with that lens. If a lens has no visible color cast you should not expect issues.

    That a file works in Lightroom but not in C1 makes a pretty strong case that there's a bug.

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I've investigated some Aptus-II 10 files too, and an interesting property of that Dalsa sensor is that the major horizontal tile line on that sensor is not a line, it's a comb, as shown in attached picture (2x pixel peep on blue channel with strongly enhanced contrast). The advantage of this is that it's less visible, the disadvantage is that it's harder to cancel out. The sensor has "normal" tile lines too, so I don't know why the middle one was made like a comb, probably something special about the manufacturing process.

    Currently C1 doesn't handle (at least some) Aptus-II 10 files too good, tiling on some of the normal tile edges become very visible (while again it works well enough in Lightroom). In that case it's even more obvious that C1 has some bug.

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    I have seen the "ripple" effect with both the 160 and now 260. This is with mainly the SK35 on shifts of more than 6mm.

    I used the 160 for over a year and did not notice I was getting it, however on a shot I took in the fall of 2013 where I was shifting in low light 15mm with the SK43, I saw it in spades. I was also using the 40mm Rod (testing) and did not see this problem, so I figured it was an issue with the 43SK and IQ260.

    I inquired with DT and they confirmed this, and also stated that the LCC should remove it in post.

    When I worked up the 43mm shot, the LCC (when processed no loaded in C1) did removed most of it, however some was still present. The 40mm shot was much cleaner.

    I then went back over some of my shots from 2013 and started to find places where I had gotten this, just not noticed it since I did not have a sky or solid color involved. Again worst offender was the SK35, with a few problems from time to time with the SK43.

    I did find a series in brighter light, that C1 (7.2) would not totally resolve the issue with some shots taken with the SK35. The issue was mainly in a shot that was around 9mm of shift which is pushing that lens too much on a 160-260. There was enough loss of color saturation that the portion of the image that had it the worse was cropped.

    However both 160 and 260 can show this problem at times.

    I can't see how the Canon 17mm TS-E would get it since it's out so much further from the sensor, however I would figure that you could take an LCC just like on a tech camera and apply it? I have never tried this but had though of doing it just to help with the light fall off. One of these day's I may try it with my 24mm TS-E II on a 6D.

    I have never opened any of my shots from the tech camera in LR as I don't prefer their LCC process (tried it but never could figure it out). However it's interesting that the problem files open clean in LR (the ones from the DF).

    Paul

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    Re: IQ160 tiling issue

    It should be said that while I've recently seen a number of cases where LR works and C1 does not, there are also cases when C1 suppresses tiles better than LR does, and I assume that is the normal case.

    I don't think LR's LCC algorithm supports suppressing microlens ripples.

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