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Thread: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

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    Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    The following announcement was published today on a NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) Show news site, detailing a demo being provided at the current show in Las Vegas by NHK. Video 8000 pixels wide is very close to the width of 645 format. NHK is the Japanese equivalent of our PBS with the exception that Japan actually funds the organization and they do real research and development. This is not an April Fool's joke. This is where commercial cinema is headed and at some point it will be in our homes in a consumer format.

    NHK: Japanese public broadcaster NHK will present its developing Super Hi-Vision format (8K video + 22.2 channel sound) with a live, closed-circuit, over-the-air broadcast in a single 6 MHz channel—the world’s first such demonstration anywhere outside of Japan. NHK will also show newly shot 8K Super Hi-Vision content in a special presentation theater with a 350-inch screen and fully immersive sound system, including highlights from the Sochi Olympic Games. In addition, the exhibit will present the latest developments in portable 8K video cameras (<5 pounds), the world’s first 8K real-time HEVC encoder, and a display- integrated virtual 22.2-channel sound system. The recently launched Japanese hybrid TV service Hybridcast will also be presented. (Japan)

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    8000 pixels wide doesn't (necessarily) imply medium format.

    NHK have been working on this for a while. If this page is correct, then the sensor is only 21.5mm by 12mm -

    Image Sensors World: ISSCC: NHK Presents 8K 120fps Super Hi-Vision Sensor

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    8000 pixels wide doesn't (necessarily) imply medium format.

    NHK have been working on this for a while. If this page is correct, then the sensor is only 21.5mm by 12mm -

    Image Sensors World: ISSCC: NHK Presents 8K 120fps Super Hi-Vision Sensor
    I was referring to pixels not physical sensor size. As we've seen, the 36 meg SONY FF sensor comes very close to delivering IQ that rivals 40 meg MF sensors.

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    It's the physical sensor size that defines the format though, not the resolution.

    Regardless of any subjective, or indeed objective, comparison between different formats, they remain just that. Different formats.

    Medium format video will arrive when someone brings out a video sensor that is medium format sized. Regardless of what that sensor's resolution is.

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    I saw the Super Hi Vision demo last year at NAB and it was amazing. What was equally impressive was just how much data was coming off the sensor per second to support it, as well as the technology they are planning to use to offer Super Hi Vision over the air. Impressive stuff!

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    It's the physical sensor size that defines the format though, not the resolution.

    Regardless of any subjective, or indeed objective, comparison between different formats, they remain just that. Different formats.

    Medium format video will arrive when someone brings out a video sensor that is medium format sized. Regardless of what that sensor's resolution is.

    Technically, you are correct. But regardless of format descriptions based on physical film or sensor size, technology advancements are taking place at a fast enough pace that IQ improvements may make our present format descriptions obsolete in the future. Certainly an 8K presentation vs 2K is akin to comparing 35mm film to medium or large format in terms of IQ.

    As an example, the small 4/3rds sensor in the new Panasonic GH4 is claimed to have S/N and DR improvements that place it near current APS-c sensor performance levels. Ultimately, it's likely MFD sensors as they exist now, will be outperformed in terms of S/N and DR by smaller sensors. The argument of small sensor 'look' vs that of MF sensors is an entirely different discussion.

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    Still.. resolution and format are two completely different things... simple fact taht cannot be argued. No matter how you angle it. My Fuji is NOT full frame 35mm. My 1Dx is... my hasselblad is not quite full frame 645 medium format, and no matter how many folks want it to be, the D800 or any other high resolution small imaging sensor is not medium format... But all can deliver cracking images... DESPITE their FORMAT

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    Smile Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    It's the physical sensor size that defines the format though, not the resolution.

    Regardless of any subjective, or indeed objective, comparison between different formats, they remain just that. Different formats.

    Medium format video will arrive when someone brings out a video sensor that is medium format sized. Regardless of what that sensor's resolution is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan W. Lediard View Post
    Still.. resolution and format are two completely different things... simple fact taht cannot be argued. No matter how you angle it. My Fuji is NOT full frame 35mm. My 1Dx is... my hasselblad is not quite full frame 645 medium format, and no matter how many folks want it to be, the D800 or any other high resolution small imaging sensor is not medium format... But all can deliver cracking images... DESPITE their FORMAT
    Correct, I would have been more accurate if I had entitled the thread:
    8K Video Will Rival 645 Medium Format

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    Hi, physics does impose some limits on pixel density vs ultimate quality achievable per pixel, specially in low light.

    I was told Arri is working on a larger sensor cinema camera (larger than the sensor in their Alexa line of cameras) because they like their sensor's pixel quality so much they want to make a higher resolution camera sensor but maintain or exceed that pixel quality.

    Most Cinema lenses won't cover a 24x36mm frame but the Schneider-Kreuznach Xenon FF-Prime Lenses do (and maybe larger) and I think the Leica Cinema lenses also (not 100% sure about the Leica's) but I am sure Arri can design and make Cinema lenses for a larger format in no time.

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    Ok, I just found out that there is a larger than 35mm sensor sized Cinema Camera and Lenses that cover this (and possibly larger) format.

    Vision research Phantom 65: Vision Research's Phantom 65 Camera - Vision Research 52.1mm X 30.5mm Sensor Size

    Momentum: Panavision unveils the Primo 70 Series Lenses

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    There have been rumors of an Arri 65mm digital for awhile. RED has even teased a 645 camera. Also, as stated, the current crop of cinema lenses out there even has trouble covering 6k on smaller-than-MFD sized sensors...especially on the wide end. Leica's top of the line Summilux-C lenses for example have difficult covering RED Dragon @6k resolution (which has a smaller than 35mm FF sensor even). The "cheaper" T2 Summicron-C lenses cover Dragon @6k just fine though. There's a whole lot of lens/sensor coverage information over on reduser.net for anyone interested. Personally, I'll start getting more excited about higher resolution video once it becomes more readily available from my couch. Even with 4k, TV prices are just now starting to come down but there's still little to no content available.

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    Quote Originally Posted by tcdeveau View Post
    Personally, I'll start getting more excited about higher resolution video once it becomes more readily available from my couch. Even with 4k, TV prices are just now starting to come down but there's still little to no content available.
    It won't be long. There are some 4K sets now available under $1K and the big names (SONY, Toshiba, Samsung) are dropping prices on their early high end models to make way, no doubt, for models with the built in decoders for streaming 4K by Netflix. And Youtube and Vimeo have any number of 4K demo clips available for streaming.

    ATSC standards will have to be revised for OTA and as with 720/1080, the broadcasters and cable companies will be dragged kicking and screaming. It's obviously going to be a multi-standard video world for the foreseeable future.

    Netflix begins 4K streams - CNET

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    Re: Medium Format Video Is In Our Future

    Quote Originally Posted by tcdeveau View Post
    There have been rumors of an Arri 65mm digital for awhile. RED has even teased a 645 camera. Also, as stated, the current crop of cinema lenses out there even has trouble covering 6k on smaller-than-MFD sized sensors...especially on the wide end. Leica's top of the line Summilux-C lenses for example have difficult covering RED Dragon @6k resolution (which has a smaller than 35mm FF sensor even). The "cheaper" T2 Summicron-C lenses cover Dragon @6k just fine though. There's a whole lot of lens/sensor coverage information over on reduser.net for anyone interested.
    Correct. That is why I have been saying, it is so sad to be throwing all those pixels away (as captured on a MF or near MF sensor.) I don't get it.

    As for the link to the Phantom camera, it is a specialty camera, certainly not in the mainstream. Did anyone catch the price on that unit? There will not be a lot of those made.

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