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Thread: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Even when the new DF body comes out, anyone want to lay money against the body (only) being extremely close in price to the 645Z as a total package? Oh and considerably lesser speced.

    I think the 'well X camera didn't kill P1' argument as rather disingenuous. All of those cameras took what would have been MF market share reducing said market until the point where there were only two big players. Yes they're making good money now from rich amatuers and asians buying the CEO's signature in gold at ridiculous prices but it's still a fraction of what it could have been had they not had their market share ripped by so many milestone DSLR's over the years. They always had the megapixel and sensor size argument to use in comparison to DSLR's to justify the huge prices but now that's gone too. I'd predict that Hasselblad will be practically dead a year from now. P1 will survive as long as there are still people willing to pay that much more for a tiny bit extra. Certainly very few pro's will any more as Sony joins to shrink an already tiny market. Business is business.

    Pentax have got to get moving on lenses though. That and tethering.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Well, the sensor is pretty much the same as the Phase One or Hassi, so the JPG compression, lens quality are the culprits I would imagine? I did a product launch demo with Phase One of their IQ250 back and I was quite blown away (I currently have the IQ160). We did some tests at 3200, 6400… and it knocked my socks off in the detail retention.

    If Pentax has a camera that is anywhere near that level of capability, it's honestly, a bargain. I wish my 645DF body was much more capable, though in all honesty, as a luxury/jewelry product photographer, it does a great job in the studio.

    As a second camera to replace my 5D Mark III, why not I am thinking, it's at a VERY interesting price/performance standpoint. Time will tell what the lenses can resolve, how tethering will work, how reliable it will actually be… etc.

    Regarding tethering a friend of mine asked RICOH about it and they will be releasing a new software "Image Transmitter 2" which will allow it. It will be around $200. Also, they will have a WIFI option (with the Pentax Flu SD card, built in wifi) to send low-JPG versions to your computer/ipad, etc.

    Times are changing….

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    My Sony A7r without a dedicated tethering program actually does a decent job of it running a hot folder in C1. My bet this Pentax would run in a hot folder setup in LR pretty well. We know C1 won't support this Pentax so you need to look elsewhere and as mentioned Ricoh does have a software package to do tethering which until we see it running we can assume it might be pretty good at it. Here is what I like so far is they are recognizing things they need in advance of release like this software for instance. Now service and support I agree is something that just can come from left field and needs to be addressed properly. Bottom line this has a place in the market and if they come out with the goodies than I truly believe those sick and tired of waiting to jump up into a MF system and not getting anything coming from there existing camps ala Nikon/Canon than this thing is a huge positive for those buyers. Obviously it is a wait and see project but thats okay. Days are passing when some are not releasing anything anyway.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by vchiline View Post
    Well, the sensor is pretty much the same as the Phase One or Hassi, so the JPG compression, lens quality are the culprits I would imagine? I did a product launch demo with Phase One of their IQ250 back and I was quite blown away (I currently have the IQ160). We did some tests at 3200, 6400… and it knocked my socks off in the detail retention.
    Additional variables beyond lens quality:
    - dark frame technology
    - raw processing

    Both are very important especially at the fringes (especially high ISO or especially long exposures). The guys who developed the IQ250 hardware are down the hall from, work with, drink with, and otherwise tightly coordinate with the guys making the software. The software guys at C1 also have a very strong incentive to spend lots of extra time tweaking C1's processing of IQ250 files to get the very most out of the files, and they had access to prototype samples for months before the launch (see the Phase One IQ250 story I wrote).

    For a more valid comparison you'd want to wait until you can run raws through LR to compare. Only time will tell how much time Adobe spends on catering their processing to get the most out of those raw files.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Feature 5?645Z | RICOH IMAGING

    here the features. tethering with the software and usb 3-0 will be a breeze.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    in italy fowl the pentax dealers assist you if a pro the same way as phase one...giving you leased camera if the repair takes long time.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    the best of pentax 645d i use is a camera that can be used in normal environment like a normal dlsr.
    i used it in kiev revolution for example with -25 degree in december

    JBPhotography by jonatha Borzicchi Home » JBPhotography by jonatha Borzicchi there are some samples of it.

    in my opinion pentax can with just three leaf lenses and producing a back sold as is for other camera mount.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Additional variables beyond lens quality:
    - dark frame technology
    - raw processing

    Both are very important especially at the fringes (especially high ISO or especially long exposures). The guys who developed the IQ250 hardware are down the hall from, work with, drink with, and otherwise tightly coordinate with the guys making the software. The software guys at C1 also have a very strong incentive to spend lots of extra time tweaking C1's processing of IQ250 files to get the very most out of the files, and they had access to prototype samples for months before the launch (see the Phase One IQ250 story I wrote).

    For a more valid comparison you'd want to wait until you can run raws through LR to compare. Only time will tell how much time Adobe spends on catering their processing to get the most out of those raw files.

    personally i have used capture one with dslr and never liked him, i use lightroom for my 645d and the conversion is brilliant, i profile the camera every time with color checker and ithe results are brilliant. capture one can be more easy for phase one owner i imagine, but it seems to me that you think not having capture one is the end of the world. i have used other raw developer and i don't see the need to have capture one as a raw editor. or at least the differences are minimal
    in my opinion the openly point at the moment are leaf shutter lenses and view camera. the rest is not worth 4 time the price. you can try to convince us as much as you want but reality is that the pentax is the best offer for many photo needs, and cost 4 times less.
    anyway the world is full of rich people who like to spend their money. so p1 still will have market.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    For my workflow being doing lots of product shots of macro subjects (jewelry), I need to do lots of stack focusing. Capture One allows me quick batch exporting on the fly with the product's SKU number alongside the incrementing number. LR or anything else isn't a breeze with this regard.

    We use C1 with our IQ160 and 5D Mark III stations - it works great, rarely has a bug and is a workhorse churning out great images.

    I would assume C1 wouldn't work with the files from a Pentax 645Z, though the native file type is DNG… but they might filter out this camera as to reduce competition… hence just handicapping? That's one way to perhaps stop a possible "bleeding" should there be one caused by this.

    I have no regrets with the investment with the Phase One system in hindsight. Although, seeing a competitor on the horizon with not just a slightly better price, but an AMAZINGLY better price and a very similar if not the same sensor, plus a much more performant body…. makes me think twice about WHICH system to invest in should I replace my Canon one.

    Time will tell.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Additional variables beyond lens quality:
    - dark frame technology
    - raw processing

    Both are very important especially at the fringes (especially high ISO or especially long exposures). The guys who developed the IQ250 hardware are down the hall from, work with, drink with, and otherwise tightly coordinate with the guys making the software. The software guys at C1 also have a very strong incentive to spend lots of extra time tweaking C1's processing of IQ250 files to get the very most out of the files, and they had access to prototype samples for months before the launch (see the Phase One IQ250 story I wrote).

    For a more valid comparison you'd want to wait until you can run raws through LR to compare. Only time will tell how much time Adobe spends on catering their processing to get the most out of those raw files.
    FUD. Pure and simple. With no evidence whatsoever you are trying to build a case for "Team Phase One" over "Team Ricoh" based on where you perceive the water coolers to be installed and who drinks from them.

    The IQ250 has its place. I have no concerns whatsoever about my rationale for convincing the guys who sign the cheques to buy one, because for my purposes, the Pentax can't deliver what I'm looking for. I shot 15,000 images with the IQ250 in just 36 hours this last week, and the Pentax couldn't have delivered one of them.

    The IQ250 doesn't need this FUD. Since launch, it has (at retail list prices) delivered 8 figure US$ revenue to the channel.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't view the 250 as solving MF problems. It makes possible new MF opportunities. The same applies to the Z.

    How about we all stop being negative in an attempt to protect our vested interest, and instead recognise and appreciate this camera for the game-changer that it is?
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by vchiline View Post
    For my workflow being doing lots of product shots of macro subjects (jewelry), I need to do lots of stack focusing. Capture One allows me quick batch exporting on the fly with the product's SKU number alongside the incrementing number. LR or anything else isn't a breeze with this regard.

    We use C1 with our IQ160 and 5D Mark III stations - it works great, rarely has a bug and is a workhorse churning out great images.

    I would assume C1 wouldn't work with the files from a Pentax 645Z, though the native file type is DNG… but they might filter out this camera as to reduce competition… hence just handicapping? That's one way to perhaps stop a possible "bleeding" should there be one caused by this.

    I have no regrets with the investment with the Phase One system in hindsight. Although, seeing a competitor on the horizon with not just a slightly better price, but an AMAZINGLY better price and a very similar if not the same sensor, plus a much more performant body…. makes me think twice about WHICH system to invest in should I replace my Canon one.

    Time will tell.

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    for your needs better phase one..also you can use studio camera.
    anyway i think if you program lightroom can be flexible with auto import, also you can use auto exporting in photoshop for stacked images. but maybe you use other software to stack.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I use Helicon Focus for focus stacking works really nice and its lightning fast
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by vchiline View Post
    For my workflow being doing lots of product shots of macro subjects (jewelry), I need to do lots of stack focusing. Capture One allows me quick batch exporting on the fly with the product's SKU number alongside the incrementing number. LR or anything else isn't a breeze with this regard.

    We use C1 with our IQ160 and 5D Mark III stations - it works great, rarely has a bug and is a workhorse churning out great images.

    I would assume C1 wouldn't work with the files from a Pentax 645Z, though the native file type is DNG… but they might filter out this camera as to reduce competition… hence just handicapping? That's one way to perhaps stop a possible "bleeding" should there be one caused by this.

    I have no regrets with the investment with the Phase One system in hindsight. Although, seeing a competitor on the horizon with not just a slightly better price, but an AMAZINGLY better price and a very similar if not the same sensor, plus a much more performant body…. makes me think twice about WHICH system to invest in should I replace my Canon one.

    Time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    FUD. Pure and simple. With no evidence whatsoever you are trying to build a case for "Team Phase One" over "Team Ricoh" based on where you perceive the water coolers to be installed and who drinks from them.

    The IQ250 has its place. I have no concerns whatsoever about my rationale for convincing the guys who sign the cheques to buy one, because for my purposes, the Pentax can't deliver what I'm looking for. I shot 15,000 images with the IQ250 in just 36 hours this last week, and the Pentax couldn't have delivered one of them.

    The IQ250 doesn't need this FUD. Since launch, it has (at retail list prices) delivered 8 figure US$ revenue to the channel.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't view the 250 as solving MF problems. It makes possible new MF opportunities. The same applies to the Z.

    How about we all stop being negative in an attempt to protect our vested interest, and instead recognise and appreciate this camera for the game-changer that it is?

    also is the classic situation where a brand think to be unbeatable and end up in bankrupt.
    ricoh is a giant, has big money, and pentax is a photo brand who makes photo gear for professional in the 70 80 90. it had a period of shadow and now is recovering. the 645d or z is a three years project so far and he's getting better and better.
    to produce LS lenses or a digital back for view camera is something they can do in a breeze if they want. but in my opinion their photo philosophy now is in creating an outdoor brand recognized for weather sealing ruggedness and great value. they do the same with their cropped camera.
    personally considering that they produced great Ls manual lenses, i don't understand why they cannot do again now, but this is a thing that makes me crazy of pentax, always a step miss to make the perfect system. the same with cropped cameras.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I use Helicon Focus for focus stacking works really nice and its lightning fast
    yes. but with lightroom you can easily export photos as advanced object in photoshop and with a click had images stacked. i don't know if the results can keep up with helicon results, never tried. but in my opioni lightroom is very flexible. personally i tried capture one and is probably the worst software i have ever tried. but maybe i never studied it deeply.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    for me the biggest ? at the moment is if the cmos can deliver the same IQ, the same image "character" i want to call it, of the ccd of 645d. so far the samples i have seen even from phase one and gassy show that the cmos sony sensor deliver the same IQ of a nikon d800 with more resolution. i'm not saying is bad, just for me has not the clarity and wow factor i see from my 645d files.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Guy, same here, I use Helicon Focus, it's really fast, rarely has issues. I tried Photoshop's version and it wasn't as good or flexible. It might have changed.

    I guess as with everything, you have a workflow and spending time figuring out another one is a little annoying, especially if after you research, you find out your original one was best. Time is money, and in jewelry photography, we work with high volumes, so it needs to be rock solid - I've been using C1 for many years… could be just me though.

    Everybody has a preferred software - Jon11 you say you hated C1, while many of us love it. Guess it depends on what we get used to and like. Some people love Nikon DSLRs, some love Canon…. to each his own I guess

    For automation, I need to manually type in the product SKU for each series of stack shots, then batch export them by the name SKU_ABC-01, 02, 03…. then in Helicon, I stack them and save as SKU_ABC.

    Anyways, can't wait to see and hear more about this camera.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I know a bit or two about raw processing, as I develop software that does it. I would not say that C1 programmers have a great advantage by being friends with the IQ250 hardware designers. How CCD and CMOS sensors work is pretty generic.

    That does not change the fact that C1 has very nice rendering, but they could do just as well with a different camera manufacturer, as long as they have a camera to play with and has the file format specification. Assuming the camera is good of course.

    End result is still what matters, but if C1 has an edge over say Lightroom, it's because the programmers are great at raw processing and have focused their effort on their cameras, not that they have some special insight into the hardware.

    It shall be interesting to see what processing options there will be for 645Z and what the results will be. I've played with the idea to make a converter that converts Hassy H50c and Pentax 645Z files into an IQ250 file, sensors are the same so it should work, then one could see how those files play out in C1. It would probably show once for all that those cameras are not really that different in terms of raw data they produce, at least for shorter shutter speeds.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Torger - I have started using C1 after using LR since the beginning. It certainly has more "bite" than LR, although I am sure LR results can be made almost similar, but the RAW converter seems better in C1.
    Do they have a policy of not supporting PhaseOne competitors? They don't support Leica S, would love it if they did.
    Implicitly (and the relevance for this thread), can they be expected to support the Pentax?
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I don't know what Phase One's policy is, but if I were them I would surely not support Hassy or Pentax or Leica MF cameras - C1 is too important in the process of getting customers to choose a Phase/Leaf back instead of other MF cameras.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Another way to out it - by supporting consumer cameras they can get significant volume income, by supporting competitor mf cameras they can only lose camera sales, there would be no volume sales anyway.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Looking forward to seeing this in person
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerimar View Post
    Looking forward to seeing this in person
    Rick you hit the nail on the head with just 6 words and what I see more than anything recently in MF is the general theme of all of us. What's this thing got under the hood and many will be looking squarely at it. I think that's great too
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Exactly. That's how I feel. Pentax is only 3 LS af modern lenses away to corner the medium format market.
    I was thinking last night that Sigma should get involved into the Z system ASAP.
    Sigma, do you copy?
    Eduardo



    Quote Originally Posted by jon11 View Post
    the best of pentax 645d i use is a camera that can be used in normal environment like a normal dlsr.
    i used it in kiev revolution for example with -25 degree in december

    JBPhotography by jonatha Borzicchi Home » JBPhotography by jonatha Borzicchi there are some samples of it.

    in my opinion pentax can with just three leaf lenses and producing a back sold as is for other camera mount.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    I was thinking last night that Sigma should get involved into the Z system ASAP.
    Sigma, do you copy?
    Eduardo
    I hadn't thought of that, but it would be a GREAT solution to the shortage of modern designed, more affordable AF lenses for the Pentax 645D system. Sigma is certainly making some outstanding lenses now. However, unless the volume of Pentax 645D/Z cameras sold really increases, I think this is unlikely.

    This is a trivial matter, but I wish Pentax had kept the 645D designation and called this new camera the 645DII.

    Gary
    Last edited by bensonga; 16th April 2014 at 17:02.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Hahahaha! Same here. Everytime I see the Z, I think of Datsun, not Pentax.
    That nifty car (240Z) is the greatest japanese product of all times.

    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post

    This is a trivial matter, but I wish Pentax had kept the 645D designation and called this new camera the 645DII.

    Gary
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Hahahaha! Same here. Everytime I see the Z, I think of Datsun, not Pentax.
    That nifty car (240Z) is the greatest japanese product of all times.

    Eduardo
    Maybe that's why they used a Z. Most able to afford the 645Z are old enough to remember the 240Z (weak cooling system however)
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I can't wait to see upcoming comparisons between the Hassy, Phase, and Pentax. I have a feeling the Pentax with the older generation lenses will be competitive when shooting landscape but fall short for editorial, fashion, and portraits.
    And no, I don't think C1 gives Phase an advantage. I get stunning quality using Aperture to process H4D-40 files.
    I prefer my Canon files in Aperture over C1 too.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post

    For a more valid comparison you'd want to wait until you can run raws through LR to compare. Only time will tell how much time Adobe spends on catering their processing to get the most out of those raw files.
    I gave up Lightroom and switched to Capture One, true.

    But I have processed the same file in Lightroom and Capture One as a comparison, and I can make the LR output almost identical to Capture One (with a lot of work, but some of which could be automated).

    While I think Capture One is the better product, it is not something I would use as even a minor criteria point in picking a camera.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    ...I was thinking last night that Sigma should get involved into the Z system ASAP. Sigma, do you copy? Eduardo
    Good thought. I am hearing Sigma will be part of the new Leica mirrorless, an interesting time at Sigma right now...
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Hahahaha! Same here. Everytime I see the Z, I think of Datsun, not Pentax.
    That nifty car (240Z) is the greatest japanese product of all times.
    Eduardo
    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    Maybe that's why they used a Z. Most able to afford the 645Z are old enough to remember the 240Z (weak cooling system however)
    I thought I could resist the urge to upgrade my 645D to the 645Z, but now I'm not so sure. I never owned a 240Z, but I sure admired them....although I preferred the BMW 2002 tii.

    All things considered, it does seem that Pentax is following the Datsun motto for the 240Z...."Dare to be Different". Thankfully however, the shutter on the 645Z is much quieter than this particular 240Z.

    Dare to Be Different in a Datsun 240Z | Petrolicious

    Gary
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Well, for us landscape shooters, I found a nice feature on 645Z: RAW level HDR.

    Does it mean that I will not need to carry those GND filters and holders? That sounds sweet!
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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Hi,

    Yes, the Pentax samples are awful. I would suggest that vendors should post decent raw files instead of artsy images that fall apart in actual pixels view.

    DigitalTransition posted some very good images from the IQ-250 (in raw) and the sensor in the P645Z would deliver similarly, as both are same Sony sensor.

    I understand Pentax 645 lenses are a mixed bag, but some seems to be very good.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by jon11 View Post
    i agree but it must be the compression.
    anyway i suspect the cmos sensor will kill all the magic from the ccd sensor has i was used with the 645d. is sony is cmos, we will have a kind of image with great dr shadow recovery, but less capability of managing highlight especially specular. i have not seen raw samples from phase or gassy but i suspect the sony sensor will produce similar images of sony ff or apsc with just more resolution.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    Yes, the Pentax samples are awful. I would suggest that vendors should post decent raw files instead of artsy images that fall apart in actual pixels view.

    DigitalTransition posted some very good images from the IQ-250 (in raw) and the sensor in the P645Z would deliver similarly, as both are same Sony sensor.

    I understand Pentax 645 lenses are a mixed bag, but some seems to be very good.

    Best regards
    Erik
    i have many lenses so my impression ( I'm not super pixel peeper i like sometimes less resolution but good rendering)

    a 35 3,5: superb. my preferred lens. i choose this cause take 77 filter, the fa model is probably better. free ca lens, with great sharpness corner to corner
    fa 55 2,8: very good lens and bokeh. great silent af
    fa 75 2,8: tack sharp
    a 120 macro: like the fa version but manual, bulky. superb sharpness,low ca
    150 2,8: mixed bag, great rendering and contrast but a bit soft wide open, sharp stopped down. i love this lens but pixel peepers could be disappointed
    200 f4: sharp tele, low ca.stopped down perfeect iq
    a*300 f4: super tele
    fa 300 5,6: like the 200 f4
    fa 300 4: superb lens and rendering. sharp. super building. paired with the new safox and 27 point can be amazing for wildlife and sport with 3fps.
    fa 400 5,6: a bit less than 300 f4 but stil i love this lens.the screw drive af is super fast, comparable to the speed of canon usm but with noise
    teleconverte 1,4: i use it with all long lenses and never degrades the images, just a small lost of contrast wide open. all in all superb piece of glass
    135 f4 LS: mine is a bit stiff to clock the shutter in the lens. sharpness ok all range.
    45-85 f 4,5: bulky but good lens. i love it.
    80-160: i love it for me great lens but super bulky.
    600 f 5,6: my dream lens:9 i will buy it soon
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Have to say it, sorry but Nikon and Canon are about to die a very slow death.
    I'd predict that Hasselblad will be practically dead a year from now. P1 will survive as long as there are still people willing to pay that much more for a tiny bit extra. Certainly very few pro's will any more as Sony joins to shrink an already tiny market.
    We should be worried about this, not celebrating it. The last thing we need in the world is another diversity snuffing monopoly.

    Honestly, I think we are aiding and abetting the homogenization of the photographic experience with our relentless comparison of technical features verses what we as individuals actually need to express ourselves … both subjectively and objectively.

    Personally, I do not subscribe to the "tiny bit of difference" maximum. IMO, the differences have always been glaring and obvious at every technical step along the way. Size also matters. Optics also matter. Leaf-shutter and T/S lenses matter. Service does matter. A LOT, not a little.

    Business is business.
    Hey Ben, isn't that the same thing the Mafia says when they kill someone?

    I have a hard time seeing why a wedding photographer would choose a IQ250 instead of a 645Z, even if the 645Z would be the more expensive system. Some will still do of course, but l think the 645Z may become an even tougher competitor than the D800 was.
    While there are a few wedding photographers that utilize MFD, (I'm one of them), the overwhelmingly vast majority do not, and wouldn't even if they had the money … these days of declining weddings and increased competition, it is getting harder to make living wage shooting weddings, let alone buy gear that few clients would care about even if you had it.

    in my opinion the openly point at the moment are leaf shutter lenses and view camera. the rest is not worth 4 time the price. you can try to convince us as much as you want but reality is that the pentax is the best offer for many photo needs, and cost 4 times less. Anyway the world is full of rich people who like to spend their money. so p1 still will have market.
    This sort of commentary seems to position "Rich People" as somehow being indiscriminate, and even stupid. Assuming those making the comment aren't rich, I'd ask who is the smart one?

    So, to carry the logic further … why would anyone spend 3X+ the amount for the Pentax over the D800 or Sony A7R? In short, the whole logical judgmental process is a slippery slope that has to be applied across the board, not selectively just for the sake of argument.

    This is why I am cautiously optimistic about the CMOS based 645Z vs the current CCD 645D. I recall the excitement I had when the Leica M240 was annoyed with its plethora of features and new higher ISO performing CMOS sensor. Unfortunately I thought like some others some aspects of image quality were lost when compared to the previous CCD based M9. Of course trade offs when all things are considered when certain cameras are upgraded from CCD to CMOS (in my opinion and from comparative observations made).

    Dave (D&A)
    Well said Dave. Like a few here have already mentioned, I'm in the camp of remaining skeptical regarding CMOS.

    Again, I think it is all part of making choices based on personal vision and specific needs. The drive to make all cameras into Swiss Army knives that are "Jacks of all trades and masters of none", is a bit disconcerting. "Horses for courses" is fast becoming a "Plow horse for all courses".

    Oh, and one other thing … as a visual person engaged in at least trying to maintain some sense of design excellence, I'd say Pentax should fire their designers … IMHO they have managed to make a homely camera downright ugly.

    - Marc
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    The "service" advantage keeps popping up here. Is the MF service better than any other service? If so I haven't really noticed, those 1 person dealers available in this part of the world which has dealership more or less as a side income can't really provide state of the art service, they do what they can but it's only so much they can do.

    I just think "why not buy three cameras to the price of a half P1 back, and then you can handle very long repair times, or even ditch the camera if it gets really bad, still cheaper". I think the personal service business is a thing of the past, it is a bit sad when it's all become web shopping, but that's the way it is.

    P1 could continue do what they do, but not many struggling professionals would like to pay $25k extra this obsolete business model obviously costs. Industrial, institutions, luxury is the future for them, or alter their business model. Personally I actually prefer paying $25k less and not have sales persons call me all the time about upgrades.

    And by the way, all medium format cameras are ugly. Except tech cameras of course.

    I like diversity, and do hope P1 and Hassy find a way to not get pushed into industrial/luxury niche, and I do hope that way includes lower prices and larger sales volumes. Concerning the luxury niche a high price is an advantage, it keeps the poor people out of the game, and to be a luxury item it must be exclusive. Showing off with more expensive gear than anyone else has is still something some people like to do, it's a status thing, just like wearing expensive clothes or having an expensive car, so it will work.

  36. #86
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Where in the UK will we be able to test one of these?

    Because I'll probably buy one but really wanna see how it performs before I do.
    Chris Giles Photography

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by jon11 View Post
    i have many lenses so my impression ( I'm not super pixel peeper i like sometimes less resolution but good rendering)

    a 35 3,5: superb. my preferred lens. i choose this cause take 77 filter, the fa model is probably better. free ca lens, with great sharpness corner to corner
    fa 55 2,8: very good lens and bokeh. great silent af
    fa 75 2,8: tack sharp
    a 120 macro: like the fa version but manual, bulky. superb sharpness,low ca
    150 2,8: mixed bag, great rendering and contrast but a bit soft wide open, sharp stopped down. i love this lens but pixel peepers could be disappointed
    200 f4: sharp tele, low ca.stopped down perfeect iq
    a*300 f4: super tele
    fa 300 5,6: like the 200 f4
    fa 300 4: superb lens and rendering. sharp. super building. paired with the new safox and 27 point can be amazing for wildlife and sport with 3fps.
    fa 400 5,6: a bit less than 300 f4 but stil i love this lens.the screw drive af is super fast, comparable to the speed of canon usm but with noise
    teleconverte 1,4: i use it with all long lenses and never degrades the images, just a small lost of contrast wide open. all in all superb piece of glass
    135 f4 LS: mine is a bit stiff to clock the shutter in the lens. sharpness ok all range.
    45-85 f 4,5: bulky but good lens. i love it.
    80-160: i love it for me great lens but super bulky.
    600 f 5,6: my dream lens:9 i will buy it soon

    LOL. I have almost the same list of lenses and have the same impressions. My 300mm is the 67 M* however; not AF, but superb. I love the 400mm as well: light, sharp and good AF. I have the 600mm which is very sharp, high contrast and very little CA, but so large and heavy that it's much more difficult to use than the 400.

    For those needing tethering:
    http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/engli...eature/05.html

    Note that it includes live view output to an external monitor. Talk about a EVF!

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    The "service" advantage keeps popping up here. Is the MF service better than any other service? If so I haven't really noticed, those 1 person dealers available in this part of the world which has dealership more or less as a side income can't really provide state of the art service, they do what they can but it's only so much they can do.
    The world works in mysterious ways... knocking on wood here, but I personally never had any electronic device (important or not) fail on me in forever. The few devices that did fail have either far exceeded their quota or were no longer even useful, like a laptop that worked for over 6 years every day. I keep backups, but never had a busted hard drive on any of my computers, since getting my first PC with a 266mhz Pentium II and whopping 4.4GB disk.

    So I guess service means different things to different people, knowing my luck I could buy a camera that's known to be faulty and use it till it's obsolete.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    OT warning:
    Gary, back in the 70's my buddy was building a very competitive 240Z and i was hot-rodding my 2002 (not the tii) part of my tweak was to add the same two twin side draft mikuni carbs the datsuns used. fun times
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by jon11 View Post
    i have many lenses so my impression ( I'm not super pixel peeper i like sometimes less resolution but good rendering)

    a 35 3,5: superb. my preferred lens. i choose this cause take 77 filter, the fa model is probably better. free ca lens, with great sharpness corner to corner
    fa 55 2,8: very good lens and bokeh. great silent af
    fa 75 2,8: tack sharp
    a 120 macro: like the fa version but manual, bulky. superb sharpness,low ca
    150 2,8: mixed bag, great rendering and contrast but a bit soft wide open, sharp stopped down. i love this lens but pixel peepers could be disappointed
    200 f4: sharp tele, low ca.stopped down perfeect iq
    a*300 f4: super tele
    fa 300 5,6: like the 200 f4
    fa 300 4: superb lens and rendering. sharp. super building. paired with the new safox and 27 point can be amazing for wildlife and sport with 3fps.
    fa 400 5,6: a bit less than 300 f4 but stil i love this lens.the screw drive af is super fast, comparable to the speed of canon usm but with noise
    teleconverte 1,4: i use it with all long lenses and never degrades the images, just a small lost of contrast wide open. all in all superb piece of glass
    135 f4 LS: mine is a bit stiff to clock the shutter in the lens. sharpness ok all range.
    45-85 f 4,5: bulky but good lens. i love it.
    80-160: i love it for me great lens but super bulky.
    600 f 5,6: my dream lens:9 i will buy it soon
    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    The "service" advantage keeps popping up here. Is the MF service better than any other service? If so I haven't really noticed, those 1 person dealers available in this part of the world which has dealership more or less as a side income can't really provide state of the art service, they do what they can but it's only so much they can do.

    I just think "why not buy three cameras to the price of a half P1 back, and then you can handle very long repair times, or even ditch the camera if it gets really bad, still cheaper". I think the personal service business is a thing of the past, it is a bit sad when it's all become web shopping, but that's the way it is.

    P1 could continue do what they do, but not many struggling professionals would like to pay $25k extra this obsolete business model obviously costs. Industrial, institutions, luxury is the future for them, or alter their business model. Personally I actually prefer paying $25k less and not have sales persons call me all the time about upgrades.

    And by the way, all medium format cameras are ugly. Except tech cameras of course.

    I like diversity, and do hope P1 and Hassy find a way to not get pushed into industrial/luxury niche, and I do hope that way includes lower prices and larger sales volumes. Concerning the luxury niche a high price is an advantage, it keeps the poor people out of the game, and to be a luxury item it must be exclusive. Showing off with more expensive gear than anyone else has is still something some people like to do, it's a status thing, just like wearing expensive clothes or having an expensive car, so it will work.

    the only leica s i have seen in my life was in grand prix of monaco. TYhe owner was old guy walking with a model and with a watch that probably costed more than my house.
    i agree in these times paying 50k for a system, or you are top fashion a dn commercial or is not possible

  41. #91
    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I am very excited by what this camera looks like on paper. Buying it will depend on knowing a little more about it in practice. Looks promising though!

    Ed
    Ed Hurst, www.spiffingpics.com
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    The "service" advantage keeps popping up here. Is the MF service better than any other service?
    Mine is.

    I just think "why not buy three cameras to the price of a half P1 back, and then you can handle very long repair times, or even ditch the camera if it gets really bad, still cheaper".
    Why not buy 6 D800s? or 8 A7rs? Then just throw away the broken camera rather than dealing with repairs. If someone prefers a P1 for the work they do, have the lenses and options they need, and they are successful doing so, why would they want something else?

    When I was doing commercial work there was no substitute for my H4D/60 except a P1 60 meg back on a H4X camera and all leaf shutter lenses. There was no substitute for my Hasselblad Multi-Shot for critical color work. We select tools based on specific need not some homogeneous popularity contest.

    P1 could continue do what they do, but not many struggling professionals would like to pay $25k extra this obsolete business model obviously costs. Industrial, institutions, luxury is the future for them, or alter their business model. Personally I actually prefer paying $25k less and not have sales persons call me all the time about upgrades.
    You forgot to add the "successful photographer" to your list of that potential future for P1. I'm not sure it is the job of all camera companies to cater to the entry level or struggling professional denominator. So, one camera may fit that bill, while another fits a different one. If I were vested in a P1 60 or 80 meg system, with the lenses that I need for what and how I shoot, the advent of a faster shooting 50 meg CMOS back may be of interest as an addition that further amortizes my current system, rather than a new one that falls short in all the important areas I already determined necessary.

    And by the way, all medium format cameras are ugly. Except tech cameras of course.
    Except mine, which is beautiful

    I like diversity, and do hope P1 and Hassy find a way to not get pushed into industrial/luxury niche, and I do hope that way includes lower prices and larger sales volumes. Concerning the luxury niche a high price is an advantage, it keeps the poor people out of the game, and to be a luxury item it must be exclusive. Showing off with more expensive gear than anyone else has is still something some people like to do, it's a status thing, just like wearing expensive clothes or having an expensive car, so it will work.
    Again you make the "social argument" like that has anything to do with the subject. I wish BMW and Lexus would price their cars the same as Chevy, and Rolex the same as Citizens, and Caviar was a commodity. If some brand conscience buyer selects the more expensive choice what do you care? Personally, I like it, and they can sell the thing to whomever they wish as long as it keeps them in business and making the products I want and need to do things the way I want to, rather than being forced into joining the Borg collective.

    Pentax has made a wonderful camera for the many who wished for an easier, more affordable way into MFD. In that respect, it is a game changer. Personally, it means nothing to me and many others who have a system they are sucessfully working with, have the lenses they need and has the versatile features they require.

    Perhaps Hasselblad and P1 should stop wasting resources on lower end stuff, and concentrate on the top dog stuff that Pentax doesn't offer, doesn't have the lenses for, and can't be used on a tech camera.

    - Marc

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Hurst View Post
    I am very excited by what this camera looks like on paper. Buying it will depend on knowing a little more about it in practice. Looks promising though!

    Ed
    LOL! After so many dissertation length postings (I'm not referring to anyone but myself) regarding thoughts of the new 645Z and Ricoh/Pentax marketing and support of the 645 system, along comes a gentleman (Ed), a man of few but meaningful words about simply waiting to see if the new 645Z lives up to its "on paper" potential. Either Ed is very smart and pragmatic or he's simply too exhausted to type very much these days, having now been up countless of nights with his adorable lovely newborn. Then again maybe its a mixture of both . Well done Ed!

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 17th April 2014 at 06:36.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    [A)UOTE=fotografz;579478]

    Perhaps Hasselblad and P1 should stop wasting resources on lower end stuff, and concentrate on the top dog stuff that Pentax doesn't offer, doesn't have the lenses for, and can't be used on a tech camera.

    - Marc[/QUOTE]

    Marc's last paragraphs really resonates! Although I'm a user of the 645D and most of its lenses, I've had numerous long stints with the Leica S &S2 and some of its lenses and often compared not only optical output of the two systems but handling and capability of capturing images. On paper if one didn't know better, the two systems seem more like each other than different and might expect them to be sort of interchangable.

    Nothing in my experience could be further than the truth. It's not only the optical prowess of the Leica lenses which are simply superb, or the availabilty of LS lenses (and yes I have used Pentax's legacy ones)...but the differences and emphasis and priorities each system places on the entire chain from image acquisition ( how the body handles in given shooting situations), to optical performance, even to in camera handling and processing of images.

    In many respects the Leica justifies it's higher price point and rightly should strive for a somewhat different market than the Pentax does. In some respects it was the same way in the film SLR era. Each company, their products, and price points often targeted different markets and not in all cases but often it was justifiable based on certain performance characteristics that a core base might rely on and require for their particular applications and requirements.

    That's not to say a value leader couldn't come up with products that matched the higher price point competition but their objects and goals were simply different. At the end of the day, it still comes down to the photographer and their innate knowledge and ability that ends up being the most important element in being able to capture great images.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    with aòò due respect ...èrobably lenses from leica are better, and they have ls lenses...but handling in camera performance and features, the leica s is far behind pentax. the 645d and now the much better 645z are simply a k3 with a bigger sensor. tons of buttons for fast and friendly use....i tried the leica s at photo kin for more than an hours and it reminded me the canon cameras as far as ergonomics.
    personally i'd like to see a comparison between 645d and leica s. in my opinion the difference in Iq will be minimal.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by jon11 View Post
    with aòò due respect ...èrobably lenses from leica are better, and they have ls lenses...but handling in camera performance and features, the leica s is far behind pentax. the 645d and now the much better 645z are simply a k3 with a bigger sensor. tons of buttons for fast and friendly use....i tried the leica s at photo kin for more than an hours and it reminded me the canon cameras as far as ergonomics.
    personally i'd like to see a comparison between 645d and leica s. in my opinion the difference in Iq will be minimal.


    That's your opinion, which I fully accept as being just as valid for you, as mine is for me. Making it into some sort of verbal contest with your opinions and IQ speculations presented as absolutes is fruitless banter … especially regarding something no one has used yet.

    I don't need nor want all the buttons and whistles. Don't need a larger sensor (I recently sold a FF 60 meg MFD camera system.) I do NOT want CMOS. I do not want Pentax optics. I do not need to compare anything, and don't care if others do so since it is meaningless internet babble that has little to do with my work and how I want to express myself.

    Do hope Leica keeps the S simple and straightforward rather than turning it into a "fast and friendly" video game (something I also despise about Sony and most other modern "swiss army knife" digital cameras). Do need all of my lenses to be leaf-shutter able with sync to 1/1000 with strobes. Do like being able to adapt select Hasselblad H and Contax 645 lenses while keeping all of the functions fully intact.

    Works for me … don't care if it doesn't for others

    I resist the Borg, and will not be assimilated

    - Marc

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    There is a problem with "horses for courses" when the generic all-around camera does a specific task just as good as a more specialized camera. This is what we see happening. It's not there yet, but gap is narrowing.

    It may look like a nice idea to drop the "budget" Leaf line, drop the 44x33 sensor size and only do full-frame, and increase prices even more, to really focus on the top dogs, and push even harder the market message that if you're not using P1 you're not a top photographer. I think however it will be too small a segment to keep up with the complicated tech development required for a modern camera system. It's harder to make a camera these days than in the film days.

    I'd rather like to see that they bring in some fresh capital and brave management and focus on growing. With a broader entry level customer base they can maintain higher development costs in the camera systems to keep bodies and backs up to date. They can still sell the high end 100+ megapixel models for very high prices to those that need and can. Having entry level lens range which only covers 44x33 could be an idea, and then increase quality and/or price on the full-frame lenses.

    I think it will be hard in the future to be a company that only makes the best camera there is. To make the best, you will need to have technology developed in broader systems.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    We've sold quite a few of the Credo 40 promo in the last month and I expect to sell several more before the promo ends.

    If anything I think the interest/publicity/awareness of the 645z to *increase* those sales. We might lose some fraction of people for whom the 645z better fits their needs (eg high ISO at an entry-level price) but most of those people wouldn't have bought a Credo anyway. And we will (based on historical precedent and activity in the last 2 days) more than make up for it by the increase in total interest in higher-end-than-commodity cameras. Our problem is not selling a camera to someone who tries it out; our problem is getting someone who shoots e.g. a 5d3 to try something more when they assume they have the best there is or that they won't care about the difference. So we materially benifit anytime a camera raises awareness and discussion about cameras that are built for image quality. Hence sales have gone up after the d800 launch, up after the 646d, and I expect up after the 645z. And this has been true of our higher-end products and entry-level products.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    What Marc said. Aside from the apparent hostility evidenced by many posts here is the notion that cameras that don't offer the full panoply of mod cons are deficient. What I miss from when I owned Leicas was how little they did for me. They didn't require a user manual and a multi page menu to customize their functions. I have no problem with people wanting all those features; I just don't. But I don't call the people who want them names, or suggest that they're lesser photographers for wanting them.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    That makes sense but when you pay so much more for so much less...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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