Site Sponsors
Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 200 of 357

Thread: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

  1. #151
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Only to people ignorant of the economics of the camera business...
    I don't think it's ignorant. That a camera company would make a back without a camera body is unthinkable of course, but the economy of it is not impossible.

    It's quite simple - high price low volume or low price and high volume. Phase One as a company is stuck in their low volume model, but CMOS is making it easier to design backs with broader functionality making them more attractive for a wider audience. Tech cam with live view, a huge opportunity in the landscape amateur market. There's still some technical challenges left, but I don't think Phase One pricing is a law of nature, and I think Mf future looks bright, from a photographer's perspective.

    I don't think the 645z will be the last time we say "game changer". We'll see more exciting products over the next few years, and I think some will have reasonable pricing.

  2. #152
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,499
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I don't think it's ignorant. That a camera company would make a back without a camera body is unthinkable of course, but the economy of it is not impossible.
    So, Pentax (that has a philosophy of not making cameras with removable backs) makes a back. Who is the market? People with Mamiya, View/Tech cameras, Hasselblad? Small market. Small distribution system. Given the bias against the 44x33mm sensor of being perceived too small, it is still making an uphill battle against larger chips. Unlike the 645Z, where they also have revenues in lenses and accessories and where they have a large customer base, this is going into a saturated niche market. Volume is important and part of the price. So is secondary sales of lenses and accessories. A back without a system is really expensive to produce because the only revenue is with that one sale.

    Then they need to do lots of R&D to figure out production for a whole bunch of cameras. What are the production tolerances on a DF? You need to know the production tolerance for the mounting of the back and the camera reflex viewing system impacts that a great deal. Then you are going to setup customer support for all of the problems the other manufacturer's cameras might have with compatibility? What about lens profiles? (What is the draw for DF or Hasselblad owners if the back does not work well with their system (no one thinks $7K is cheap and expects to have to work hard to make something work well.) All of this cost money. And we have not even discussed the cost of just making the back. Lot of things are going to have to be redesigned. Just because a back loses the rest of the camera, does not make it cheaper. There is more to this than material costs. Companies don't make their cameras expensive on a whim. There are real economics working here. If the $7K back made economic sense, you would have seen it long ago.

  3. #153
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    A helpful suggestion:


    Hasselblad Lunar : cp+ 2013 by rhythmsift, on Flickr
    Yup, there had to be one
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  4. #154
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I agree it's not for Pentax and not for this first CMOS sensor. For a very long time (in digital photography terms) an economical MFD camera was impossible, now look what happened.

    I think the amateur landscape market is large enough to sell many thousands of backs intended for tech cam use, if priced right and having CMOS feature set (ie live view). Must work with wide angles though which they do not yet do though. Tech cam body / lens shortage could be a problem as they probably can't make that many units.

    But you're right, there is not really a player that has the right profile today. The closest we may come in near term I think would be a new MF mirrorless camera system, it will happen sooner or later I think, not sure by whom. Sony and Pentax are the prime suspects.

    CMOS makes it possible to make easy to use cameras that speak to many. MF was limited to pro use before as it had such extremely narrow use case due to their limited feature set. The technology is there to make volume products, which Pentax apperently is attempting, I hope it will be successful. Phase One could theoretically do the same, but I don't think they have the agility. They could choose to expand into institutional, industrial and luxury or use the new possibilities of CMOS to really grow MF.

    Detachable back is a large challenge from a company structure perspective, due to back maker is not the same as camera maker, and the lens maker is yet a different party. That it's unlikely to happen I think is not due to a lacking market interest, but due to structural issues in the industry.

    The best thing that can happen for MF now is that the Pentax becomes very successful, so the industry can see that there is a market interest for MF that is strong enough to sell $10k cameras in volumes needed to make profit. If the venture capital players become aware that there's money to make, anything can happen...

  5. #155
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,499
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    That it's unlikely to happen I think is not due to a lacking market interest, but due to structural issues in the industry.
    Interest is not sales. The market speaks for itself. There is no structural hurdle, the 645D and 645Z and Mamiya ZD show inexpensive MFD can be done. Fortunately, it worked out for Pentax, not so much for Mamiya. But that is still a lot of money for the market. In Film MF, anything over $1K was really expensive. And film MF cameras could be bought new for a few hundred dollars. Digital made things so much more expensive and left a lot of consumers behind. The folks buying the IQ280s and Leica Ss are not the ones supporting the market.
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  6. #156
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I think Mamiya ZD was too early. The key with CMOS and current technology is that you can make cameras for very wide range of use cases and make it easy to use. Thanks to D800 and other high res SLR the high res photo interest has gone up, which increases interest to take it even further, which MF can do. With structural hurdle I meant tech cams, ie detachable back from manufacturer A, body from B and lens from C.

    I think a $10k or even $15k state-of-the-art back would make a real difference from a $35k back Phase One style pricing. Many consumers would still be left behind of course, but a lot of new would still be invited.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  7. #157
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    544
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    From 3/4 upfront, it loos like a Greyhound bus from the early 50's.

    But it is freacking amazing, it may well be my first DMF camera.

    Eduardo


    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    +1. As much as I want to like it it is puking ugly...

  8. #158
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    So, Pentax (that has a philosophy of not making cameras with removable backs) makes a back. Who is the market? People with Mamiya, View/Tech cameras, Hasselblad? Small market. Small distribution system. Given the bias against the 44x33mm sensor of being perceived too small, it is still making an uphill battle against larger chips. Unlike the 645Z, where they also have revenues in lenses and accessories and where they have a large customer base, this is going into a saturated niche market. Volume is important and part of the price. So is secondary sales of lenses and accessories. A back without a system is really expensive to produce because the only revenue is with that one sale.

    Then they need to do lots of R&D to figure out production for a whole bunch of cameras. What are the production tolerances on a DF? You need to know the production tolerance for the mounting of the back and the camera reflex viewing system impacts that a great deal. Then you are going to setup customer support for all of the problems the other manufacturer's cameras might have with compatibility? What about lens profiles? (What is the draw for DF or Hasselblad owners if the back does not work well with their system (no one thinks $7K is cheap and expects to have to work hard to make something work well.) All of this cost money. And we have not even discussed the cost of just making the back. Lot of things are going to have to be redesigned. Just because a back loses the rest of the camera, does not make it cheaper. There is more to this than material costs. Companies don't make their cameras expensive on a whim. There are real economics working here. If the $7K back made economic sense, you would have seen it long ago.
    This is exactly why Kodak got out of the MFD back business. The Kodak ProBacks were actually very innovative for their time and priced much more attractively than most competing solutions back then. But they didn't make MF cameras or lenses.

    I recall all the hubbub required to fit a ProBack 645C to my Contax 645 … Kodak said it was the camera that was out of whack and Kyocera said it was Kodak's fault. Finally Kodak asked me to send in the back and camera and calibrated everything for me. To do that for all the different cameras that a ProBack could be used on would have been a daunting service task.

    Eventually they decided that just making the sensors for other back makers made more sense. In the end, even that didn't work out so well.

    Phase One is set up to do that sort of engineering. Hasselblad decided to close their system and concentrate on calibrating the camera/back/lens interface for each and every H camera. Both companies sell a comprehensive array of lenses and accessories that must be developed without the economy of scale enjoyed by the 35mm DSLR makers (at least for the time being )

    - Marc
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #159
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by jon11 View Post
    deleting images is so important now that card are so cheap? or format is a menu format card ok.
    for example zooming with pentax 645d and k3 is a breeze , with a 100% magnification easy with a touch of the wheel...we won't talk about zooming with nikon cameras? i prefer a fast zooming option than a delete images in a step instead a two step. actually rarely delete images in camera.
    The zoom -in feature on the 645D is both wonderful and useful as it is on pro level Nikon DSLR's. (why the D600 didn't have it, nobody can figure out). As for deleting images, regardless how many large cards I use, there are some specific applications where I must review and delete on the fly. Please respect that some individuals have certain work flow requirements and they may differ from yours.

    The delete feature multi step as well as going through I think 5-6 menu pages to format a card in a camera at this level, was a unnecessary mistake in my opinion and simply emulated what is often found on Pentax 35mm DSLR's. Again a wonderful camera but a few operational features, has one wading through too many buttons to push..especially if one is shooting a fast paced event under near darkened conditions. Just simply expressing my observations in working with the 645D.

    Dave (D&A)

  10. #160
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by jon11 View Post
    i agree with you about iq is not only resolution. when i see my file from 645d is always a wow factor that prevails. and is not res. is tonal transition, colors, dynamic range in highlight, while the sony sensor are more in shadow. specular highlights are always much better treated also. my 645d rarely needs big tweaking, apart the time i am creative in cs6. the apsc from k3 for example are not so good out of camera.
    i know at least 4 photog who had d800e and 645d and sold nikon for example.
    I completely agree on what you wrote above regarding image characteristics of the 645D. It closely mirrors my experience and why I am so worried when the transition goes from CCD to CMOS and whether it remains nearly the same.

    Where we differ slightly is on the menus and operation. Yes, it's good but in some cases it can be a bit of a kludge and slow and again this is in my many years of experiences. For others their opinion may be different.

    Dave (D&A)

  11. #161
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    From 3/4 upfront, it loos like a Greyhound bus from the early 50's.

    But it is freacking amazing, it may well be my first DMF camera.

    Eduardo
    If memory serves me correctly, isn't it's grip color refered to as "sea green"? If so, it may have been an ecological and carefully considered environmentally conscious choice. This way if someone drops it in the ocean, it will blend in with the natural fauna.

    Dave (D&A)

  12. #162
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I think Mamiya ZD was too early. The key with CMOS and current technology is that you can make cameras for very wide range of use cases and make it easy to use. Thanks to D800 and other high res SLR the high res photo interest has gone up, which increases interest to take it even further, which MF can do. With structural hurdle I meant tech cams, ie detachable back from manufacturer A, body from B and lens from C.

    I think a $10k or even $15k state-of-the-art back would make a real difference from a $35k back Phase One style pricing. Many consumers would still be left behind of course, but a lot of new would still be invited.
    We are all making assumptions without any real factual marketing information.

    How big a specialized tech camera market opportunity would be is anyone's guess. Our anecdotal opinions are somewhat myopic because of our deep personal interest in certain types of photography … which doesn't necessarily translate into a larger appeal.

    Besides, $15K would be just the start … then there is the tech camera itself, and the specialized view lenses required to take advantage of a "state of the art" digital back.

    Making the jump from the familiar DSLR form of a $3K Nikon D800, to use of a $20K+ tech camera is a pretty big step.

    Personally, I think it will continue to move in the opposite direction … which was triggered by the D800 followed by the A7R. Smaller, more familiar cameras with expanded capabilities. All you hear is wishful speculation of a 50 meg 35mm camera. We know more resolution isn't the main driver, but that is an argument that falls on deaf ears.

    - Marc

  13. #163
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    but the pentax 645d/z is just SO ugly! I guess if you buy it for work, it'll be like the Phase DF... a pure work horse. but OMG that thing is ugly.
    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    +1. As much as I want to like it it is puking ugly...
    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    As I said on that other forum, I'm struggling to think of an uglier camera, but that said I'm struggling to think of a better value camera.
    Whether it is ugly or not, the Pentax 645 cameras (film and digital) are some of the most comfortable cameras to hold and use that I have ever owned.

    Try it, you might like it.

    Gary
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #164
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    W. NY, close to Toronto, far from NYC
    Posts
    1,427
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Whether it is ugly or not, the Pentax 645 cameras (film and digital) are some of the most comfortable cameras to hold and use that I have ever owned.

    Try it, you might like it.

    Gary
    Ugly is as ugly does. The 645 D does really well.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  15. #165
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I tried Gary, but when I went to hold one, my hand recoiled and slapped me in the face

    Just kidding.

    Pentax should adopt the old VW slogan … "It's Ugly, But It Gets You There"

    Or a new slogan:

    "Beauty Is In the Hand Of The Holder" … (or is that too suggestive?)

    Meh, everyone thought my H camera was ugly, but I sure liked how it handled.

    - Marc
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  16. #166
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts and Vermont
    Posts
    947
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Only to people ignorant of the economics of the camera business...
    Would that be the guys running Contax, mamiya and hasselblad who either went under or in hasselblad's case almost went under making cameras and lenses to serve as platforms for phase one backs, or the guys running phase who built a $200m business selling removable digital backs?

  17. #167
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,499
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Would that be the guys running Contax, mamiya and hasselblad who either went under or in hasselblad's case almost went under making cameras and lenses to serve as platforms for phase one backs, or the guys running phase who built a $200m business selling removable digital backs?
    You mean the new $7K 50MP CMOS Phase One back?

  18. #168
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Whether it is ugly or not, the Pentax 645 cameras (film and digital) are some of the most comfortable cameras to hold and use that I have ever owned.

    Try it, you might like it.

    Gary
    Right Gary! To all those who think the 645D is butt ugly, remember, beauty is only skin deep. Once that 645D hits the dance floor, she glides effortlessly across it and holding it's big butt is kinda nice . I won't even mention what happens when you get her behind closed bedroom doors after that 1st date, but let me just say she "sync's" beautifully when she "flashes" those baby blues of hers...even when you attempt to take off her classic LS lenses . She's a keeper....LOL!

    Dave (D&A)
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  19. #169
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Meh, everyone thought my H camera was ugly, but I sure liked how it handled.
    - Marc
    I've always liked the looks of the H cameras myself. I only wish they had made an all black H cam....now that would have been very sexy!

    For sheer looks alone, the H4D-40 Stainless model was my favorite.

    I've never actually held or used a Hassy H series camera. I hope someday I'll have that opportunity.

    Gary

  20. #170
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    In portrait and many other professional photography resolution has reached the good enough level. However, I think resolution is still the main
    driver in landscape photography. People want to print huge and step close I guess. When I see people talk about landscape gear it's mainly lens sharpness that's the topic.

    I think there are many amateur landscape photographers for each professional portrait photographer. I have seen tech camera dealers change profile to be more inviting to amateurs, which is a good change.

    A tech cam is not cheap, but there are many options, Silvestri cameras with schneider lenses are not too bad. Backs is what makes it bad. Still its mainly a hobby for people with well paid daytime jobs.

  21. #171
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I've always liked the looks of the H cameras myself.
    I rememver when I first saw an H camera, really really ugly I thought, like some alien space ship, but since then I've got used to it, and now I think it looks best of the MF DSLRs.

  22. #172
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Whether it is ugly or not, the Pentax 645 cameras (film and digital) are some of the most comfortable cameras to hold and use that I have ever owned.

    Try it, you might like it.
    I never hold medium format cameras ;-)
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  23. #173
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,795
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I've always liked the looks of the H cameras myself. I only wish they had made an all black H cam....now that would have been very sexy!

    For sheer looks alone, the H4D-40 Stainless model was my favorite.

    I've never actually held or used a Hassy H series camera. I hope someday I'll have that opportunity.

    Gary
    Gary,

    New limited edition all black H4D-40 with lens is 14k....

    And it is gorgeous...

    Hasselblad H4D-40 Black Limited Edition Medium H-70380534-B B&H

    Bob

  24. #174
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    35
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    The zoom -in feature on the 645D is both wonderful and useful as it is on pro level Nikon DSLR's. (why the D600 didn't have it, nobody can figure out). As for deleting images, regardless how many large cards I use, there are some specific applications where I must review and delete on the fly. Please respect that some individuals have certain work flow requirements and they may differ from yours.

    The delete feature multi step as well as going through I think 5-6 menu pages to format a card in a camera at this level, was a unnecessary mistake in my opinion and simply emulated what is often found on Pentax 35mm DSLR's. Again a wonderful camera but a few operational features, has one wading through too many buttons to push..especially if one is shooting a fast paced event under near darkened conditions. Just simply expressing my observations in working with the 645D.

    Dave (D&A)

    deleting is two click, i mean 1 second more than nikon, formatting is menu row 2 sec format. how many times you use format? i mean i understand everything but this seems to me really not great problems.
    you need to format a camera in totally dark? and in totally dark u need to beat the world record of fastest formatting and deleting images? just to ask.
    i agree delete could be a one button solution, but i prefer to use multiple deleting so i can choose images and delete theme in batch. but formatting is really 3 sec operation.

  25. #175
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    35
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I completely agree on what you wrote above regarding image characteristics of the 645D. It closely mirrors my experience and why I am so worried when the transition goes from CCD to CMOS and whether it remains nearly the same.

    Where we differ slightly is on the menus and operation. Yes, it's good but in some cases it can be a bit of a kludge and slow and again this is in my many years of experiences. For others their opinion may be different.

    Dave (D&A)
    yes my differ. for me the d800 is not the same level of handling. for example the button of iso in the left side is a flaw. when you shoot at fast pace with long lens you have to move the hand that support the camera, while with the pentax position you never move the left han from the barrel and operates everything looking in the viewfinder. and i have some other complaints about nikon ergonomics. in my opinion canon has improved but is still behind. nikon is good but i prefer pentax approach.

  26. #176
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    35
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    i have pentax image transmitter for 645d.
    i use it and lightroom auto import for tethering.
    to transfer a full jpeg is 8 sec, a raw from the click to the import in lightroom is 15 sec.
    i'm sure with the usb 3 and a better software, the current software is pretty basic, pentax can half the time.
    i hope they work with adobe to create some direct tethering to lightroom using the new transmitter.

    personally i prefer to send small jpeg in lightroom to have a preview of the file, i always check color and white balance with color card so jpeg shows me a pretty accurate preview.
    but i agree with phase one you can have file much faster.

    p.S: i tried also hot folder in capture one and it takes 13 sec for raw, 9 sec jpeg best, 6 sec jpeg low.
    i need to study a bit capture one to see if for specific shots work better. how can i upload icc profile for single shooting and automatically use them for every sinlge photos i import using the ht folder
    Last edited by jon11; 19th April 2014 at 05:48.

  27. #177
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,579
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    FYI, the Hasselblad price also includes the body. But unlike the Pentax, you can use the back on a tech camera. fotografz

    Well, we know that is not completely accurate with Hasselblad backs with micro lenses. I think because there's so much comparison then Pentax is doing something right. I think price point is the most contentious debate made in MFD and again, Pentax is obviously doing something right.

  28. #178
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    544
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: pent!

    If this model had the 50.1mp cmos Sony sensor, I'd rather pay for this than paying $8.5 for the Z. Even without lens.

    C'mon Hasselblad, 2014 it's year to repent! (and ammend)
    This post goes for you too Phase!

    Eduardo

    P.S. If you confess mea culpa, I promise we won't press any more charges.



    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Gary,

    New limited edition all black H4D-40 with lens is 14k....

    And it is gorgeous...

    Hasselblad H4D-40 Black Limited Edition Medium H-70380534-B B&H

    Bob
    Last edited by Uaiomex; 19th April 2014 at 08:50. Reason: For fun purposes. :ROTFL:

  29. #179
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Gary,
    New limited edition all black H4D-40 with lens is 14k....
    And it is gorgeous...

    Hasselblad H4D-40 Black Limited Edition Medium H-70380534-B B&H

    Bob
    Now that is a good looking camera!

    I won't part with my 503CWD-16II and 645D, so a third MFD system is out of the question. And I must be jaded by MFD prices....$14k doesn't feel outrageously expensive, although $12k would be even more attractive. Hasselblad could sweenten the package by substituting the 100/2.2 for the 80/2.8. When Hasselblad substituted the CFE 40mm ED IF lens for the 80/2.8 in the 503CWD/CFV-16II package (with no increase in price), that was the clincher for me.

    A complete line of superior LS lenses is certainly an area where Leica and Hasselblad have an advantage over Pentax. I don't know enough about the latest Mamiya lenses.

    Gary
    Last edited by bensonga; 19th April 2014 at 09:37.

  30. #180
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    FYI, the Hasselblad price also includes the body. But unlike the Pentax, you can use the back on a tech camera. fotografz

    Well, we know that is not completely accurate with Hasselblad backs with micro lenses. I think because there's so much comparison then Pentax is doing something right. I think price point is the most contentious debate made in MFD and again, Pentax is obviously doing something right.
    No doubt about it. $8,500 has to get anyone's attention. However, that doesn't alter the fact that you cannot use it on a tech camera, and even if you could I believe it employs the micro lenses that you have pointed out as some sort of deficiency.

    FYI, Hasselblad makes six configurations of backs, only two use micro-lenses, (the 1.3X crop 40meg, and I assume the crop frame 50 CMOS). The larger sized sensors are the logical choice for tech cameras employing movements … none of which use micro-lenses. Phase and Leaf have even more.

    Not that I'm against an enclosed system camera … mine is one of them

    - Marc

  31. #181
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    All 6 um sensors use microlenses. The ones found in P65+ and later are however friendlier to tech wides than p30+, that's why it's become a widespread belief that they have none, but they do have them.

    On sk35 and even rodenstock 40 you can for shifted shots see ripple caused by the microlenses, but a good lcc algorithm fixes it.

    The new Sony sensor is not so good with tech wides as shown with IQ250 testing. It's not a tech wide angle sensor, so it's use for tech cam is mainly limited to table top photography.

    What tech cams need is the new backlit sensor type which puts the photodiode at the surface, but it's only available in small sizes still. Old sensors without microlenses instead have problems with poor fill factor and thus worse aliasing.

    (Concerning aliasing I am surprised that portrait photographers have not demanded aa filters on their sensors, but they still seem to prefer pixel peep resolution rather that getting rid of aliasing artifacts such as moire an color errors on fabrics.)
    Last edited by torger; 19th April 2014 at 10:18.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  32. #182
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Should we worry about the fact that we consider the H camera to be 'not too bad looking considering'? Wow but our standards have been dropped by modern MF cameras!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  33. #183
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Should we worry about the fact that we consider the H camera to be 'not too bad looking considering'? Wow but our standards have been dropped by modern MF cameras!
    Not too bad looking considering..? I'm still going with "it's a good looking camera", especially when clad in all black or stainless steel.

    I do think the Leica S is the best looking MFD camera on the market today. I'm not sure which of the MF film cameras could top it.

    Certainly my Pentax 67II doesn't come close. In fact, I'd have to admit that is very unattractive looking, but it's still a satisfying camera to use and the lenses are excellent.

    Just this morning I bought the final P67 lens I've been wanting, the 75mm f2.8 AL. After seeing the images that Ed Hurst and others have shot with this lens on the 645D, I know it will perform beautifully.

    Gary

  34. #184
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post

    I do think the Leica S is the best looking MFD camera on the market today. I'm not sure which of the MF film cameras could top it.
    Fuji GX680
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  35. #185
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    LOL. This proves the old adage that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure the GX680 has many fine and unique traits, but I would never call this Frankencamera beautiful.

  36. #186
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I'm not sure which of the MF film cameras could top it.
    The classic simplicity and beauty of the Hasselblad 500 series cameras, perhaps?
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
    Likes 6 Member(s) liked this post

  37. #187
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Tech cams are about the sexiest cameras around. They just look cool
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  38. #188
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    The classic simplicity and beauty of the Hasselblad 500 series cameras, perhaps?
    Classic simplicity of the Hasselblad 500 body and CFV digital.

    If it had a 50 megapixel full frame square sensor it would be perfect.

    Gary
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  39. #189
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    The classic simplicity and beauty of the Hasselblad 500 series cameras, perhaps?
    For me it was the Hasselblad 203FE. The fact that you could use it with all the leaf shutter Zeiss lenses or faster aperture FE lenses with it's focal plane shutter made it even more "attractive".

    Prior to the Leica S, I always thought the Contax 645 was the best looking MF camera … and still is the sexiest looking modular MF camera.

    - Marc
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  40. #190
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,579
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    No doubt about it. $8,500 has to get anyone's attention. However, that doesn't alter the fact that you cannot use it on a tech camera, and even if you could I believe it employs the micro lenses that you have pointed out as some sort of deficiency.

    FYI, Hasselblad makes six configurations of backs, only two use micro-lenses, (the 1.3X crop 40meg, and I assume the crop frame 50 CMOS). The larger sized sensors are the logical choice for tech cameras employing movements … none of which use micro-lenses. Phase and Leaf have even more.

    Not that I'm against an enclosed system camera … mine is one of them

    - Marc
    Only deficient if your primary goal is to shoot tech. However, it would seem pretty obvious those interested in the Pentax are not considering shooting tech with it. I'm sure the same holds true for the Leica S owners or as you like to say, "horses for courses".
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  41. #191
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Classic simplicity of the Hasselblad 500 body and CFV digital.

    If it had a 50 megapixel full frame square sensor it would be perfect.

    Gary
    Yep. I'd still be in that camp if Hasselblad had done a square CFV digital back at least close to FF … 40 or 50 meg would have been more than enough.

    I used Vs for over 40 years straight and hated to let go a few years ago.

    Oh well.

    - Marc
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  42. #192
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,344
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Gary,

    New limited edition all black H4D-40 with lens is 14k....

    And it is gorgeous...

    Hasselblad H4D-40 Black Limited Edition Medium H-70380534-B B&H

    Bob
    It took them some time, didn't it. Here's a 2003 Fuji:



    ... and the 2014 Hasselblad


  43. #193
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,344
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    LOL. This proves the old adage that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure the GX680 has many fine and unique traits, but I would never call this Frankencamera beautiful.
    Careful, careful... they are the sexiest cameras in the world, and they are easily insulted

  44. #194
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,579
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yep. I'd still be in that camp if Hasselblad had done a square CFV digital back at least close to FF … 40 or 50 meg would have been more than enough.

    I used Vs for over 40 years straight and hated to let go a few years ago.

    Oh well.

    - Marc
    Ditto on a FF CFV DB...

    I really like the "V" series with black and chrome piping. I might even mate it with a fat pixel DB if they can be found, but for now content with square film. It feels like a work of art and looking down into the viewfinder, everything it frames looks like a work of art! For that, I say thank you Mr. Hasselblad.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  45. #195
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Given that Sony seems to be selling this chip wholesale to all comers, I wonder if Fuji will jump in? They make some very nice MF rangefinders which I'd prefer them to do rather than Sony having a go at it...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  46. #196
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Yeah Ben, an updated GS645 folding digital with 50 meg … now that'd be a "pocket rocket" for sure!

    - Marc
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  47. #197
    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    KEMPTEN / GERMANY
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    116

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Could a digital RF folder be precise enough for a WA lens ? ? ?
    I doubt that , although the idea is great .

    Happy Easter to everybody . Its time to search for digital eggs .
    Regards . Jόrgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  48. #198
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Why a WA?

    Didn't those folders come with a fixed 75mm or 65mm?

    Something between 35mm and 50mm equivalent in 35mm terms would work for me.


    Just ate a digital egg, and I'm hungry for more pixels already.

    Hippity-Hoppity Easter!

    - Marc

  49. #199
    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    KEMPTEN / GERMANY
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    116

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Yes , true .
    Since I shoot with my ALPA , I think mostly in WA .
    Never did that with HASSELBLAD .
    Regards . Jόrgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  50. #200
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Posts
    86
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    This post reflects the Present and Future, here is a brief account of the PAST !

    We sure have come a long way !

    Enjoy this Video



    Jai

    ps : Love the way Hasselblad is pronounced !!
    Jai Vora • jaivora.com • +91 982-136-0044
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •