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Thread: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by jvora View Post
    This post reflects the Present and Future, here is a brief account of the PAST !

    We sure have come a long way !

    Enjoy this Video



    Jai

    ps : Love the way Hasselblad is pronounced !!
    Agree, we've come a long way but at the same time, some things never change or in other words....a lot is still similar to today!

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    LOL! After so many dissertation length postings (I'm not referring to anyone but myself) regarding thoughts of the new 645Z and Ricoh/Pentax marketing and support of the 645 system, along comes a gentleman (Ed), a man of few but meaningful words about simply waiting to see if the new 645Z lives up to its "on paper" potential. Either Ed is very smart and pragmatic or he's simply too exhausted to type very much these days, having now been up countless of nights with his adorable lovely newborn. Then again maybe its a mixture of both . Well done Ed!

    Dave (D&A)

    Hello Dave :-)

    I wish I could say that the primary explanation is the former, but in fact, it's mainly the presence of my adorable, lovely newborn. I just haven't had time to devote to photography itself or discussing it of late. Amusingly, it has proven to concentrate the mind on what matters most in those spheres - I ended up saying in two lines what I would previously have said in an essay (which just goes to show I didn't have much of consequence to say!) ;-)

    That said, I have enjoyed scanning everyone else's thoughtful and insightful contributions. It's clear that this camera has shaken things up before it has even been launched. Let's hope it continues to do so once it has (though my bank manager may not agree!).

    All the best,

    Ed

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Ed, one of the most facinanting things is yet to come....the merging of two wonderful worlds. As you little one grows day by day, the desire to photograph every moment also grows...so that your love of photography combines with the love of capturing every wonderful minute with your new little one. It truly doesn't get better than that! Of course when they ask to borrow the keys to the car...that will become a different story....LOL!

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    That is certainly true. And it's an arena in which high ISO and multiple AF points will be advantageous ;-)

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Not to mention 3fps

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post

    Look at Ken R: it was the Pentax 645D, at their attractive cost of entry, that brought him into medium format, but he ended up selling it and getting a Phase One. Would he have tried the (more expensive) Phase One system if he hadn't waded into the waters more gently with the Pentax first? I guess you'd have to ask him, but my bet is no. Many of our customers are like this. They end up with an IQ180 or similar as a result of a "gateway" system (D800, Pentax 645, entry-level p1 back) which whets their pallets for better image quality.

    Dante's inferno indeed.
    Isn't it two way traffic? Don't we have enough examples where people moved from Phase to D800 as their main camera as well?

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Additional variables beyond lens quality:
    - dark frame technology
    - raw processing

    Both are very important especially at the fringes (especially high ISO or especially long exposures). The guys who developed the IQ250 hardware are down the hall from, work with, drink with, and otherwise tightly coordinate with the guys making the software. The software guys at C1 also have a very strong incentive to spend lots of extra time tweaking C1's processing of IQ250 files to get the very most out of the files, and they had access to prototype samples for months before the launch (see the Phase One IQ250 story I wrote).

    For a more valid comparison you'd want to wait until you can run raws through LR to compare. Only time will tell how much time Adobe spends on catering their processing to get the most out of those raw files.
    Despite having so talented engineers (hardware & software) Phase can't deliver focus peaking which Sony & Pentax can do?

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    Despite having so talented engineers (hardware & software) Phase can't deliver focus peaking which Sony & Pentax can do?
    I think that this is probably a little unfair because this really requires a new camera system than the DF/DF+ with EVF. Until then, no amount of talent is going to make the DF+ show focus peaking.

    Now the Live View on the IQ250 showing focus peak - well that does sound like something that we'd hope that they could manage at some point.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    Isn't it two way traffic? Don't we have enough examples where people moved from Phase to D800 as their main camera as well?
    You are probably right in this observation. Not only moved from MFD to cameras like the D800 and A7R, but there are probably also a number of folks that never "moved up" to MFD because of higher resolution 35mm cameras.

    We cannot forget that the lingering effects of a struggling economy bring a certain level of "reality" to all this. Pro or advanced amateur, money talks. Paying 10X more for a Phase One is a sobering consideration to say the least. Even 3X more for the Pentax (plus new lenses) is no small matter for many these days.

    Conditions in life have a nasty habit of changing. Based on my anecdotal experiences with friends, colleagues, and some folks here on GetDpi (including myself), when life butts in financially, the first thing to photographically go is the MFD system.

    To me this says it is a luxury for some (maybe even many), not a dire necessity.

    Or the "necessity" has changed.

    - Marc
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    To me this says it is a luxury for some (maybe even many), not a dire necessity.

    Or the "necessity" has changed.
    I do sometimes wonder if the luxury market is indeed the majority target audience for MFD manufacturers today (PODAS events, Lunar, Limited edition models)?

    Value has very little bearing in this market but an endorsement goes a long way.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    It is unfortunate that the whole economy has moved in this direction- but that is a subject for another forum- I do see and feel that photographic community which used to be a solidly middle to upper middle class group who could afford very good medium format film gear and Lf film gear which lasted for decades has now shrunk and is struggling under a flat middle economy.

    While there are opportunities to take vendors in-house (digital printing, bookmaking retouching etc) enabled by digital, the big loss has been in the affordability of mf gear.

    The mf manufacturers are not dummies and have their market research in hand, and just like cars, watches, etc, other luxury goods, the support is growing at the top not in the middle.

    Whether or not that continues is another question. If Phase was publicly traded I would not own their stock nor Hassy etc. no matter that I like their products.

    So even tho we have a kind of moore's law equation going on with increased performance each generation there is not much trickle down because the mf companies would risk profits to sell at lower margins. Kind of a monkey/banana/bars problem. Dropping the product price by half would not I don't believe grow the market that much considering that prosumers might only top out at full frame dslr prices, and even that market is shrinking.

    So they probably are doing the right thing by keeping margins healthy and banking the cash for stormy weather.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I do sometimes wonder if the luxury market is indeed the majority target audience for MFD manufacturers today (PODAS events, Lunar, Limited edition models)?

    Value has very little bearing in this market but an endorsement goes a long way.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I think there's more money to earn with volume. Mf will be a niche due to the very high quality possible with smaller formats, but I think the niche is kept unnecessary small due to the current business model. I also think Phase One and Hasselblad are too small to be able to change. They will succeed in price insensitive markets or go under.

    Anyway the success or failure of the new Pentax will tell us if more affordable MF works or not.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    If when you're in financial trouble you sell your MFD, I think it means you're not a pro.
    If this is the system that makes you money, it doesn't make a lot of sense to sell it. I don't think moving to 35mm will grow anyone business.

    It would seem Pentax made a very nice camera.
    But is there a complete super high quality eco system?
    From what I've read (yes, now please tell me that only those who've had the thing in their hands are allowed to comment on it) - from what I've read I understand most of the glass is not up to par with P1/H. Does Pentax have the resources or the inclination to complete the system with competitive quality glass? Time will tell. I think they will not, I think they plan to be above 35mm and below P1/H.

    Very very good glass seems like a requirement for someone making an investment in a pro system.
    I believe we will see more people dipping their feet in the MFD pool and churning 50mp images for a Canon like investment. But as long as the glass is behind, I don't think it will affect the high end business very much.
    The galavanting billionaire enjoys his gold-plated ALPA.
    The sweaty pro needs his images to pop.
    I think it will take a bigger chunk from Canon/Nikon than from P1/H.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    A camera doesn't make you money, your images do.

    You don't necessarily need 80 megapixels to make strong images, and if you don't reducing equipment cost can be a smart move.

    If you need your images to pop - learn post-processing.

    The camera is the least important component for successful image making, unless your genre is very special, like art reproduction.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    You clearly didn't meet the client who counts the pixels, or the client who compares the sharpness of your files to his previous project.

    You can find plenty of strong images on instagram - that doesn't mean anyone's paid for them.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Torger, if my memory serves me correctly, you are an amateur.
    Do you make most of your living from photography?
    What makes you think the "strong image" is what pays the bills?

    A camera system is a work tool, or a fun tool, depending on who buys it.

    If you give your clients photoshopped files from inferior glass - do you really think they will come back and send their friends?

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I think there's more money to earn with volume. Mf will be a niche due to the very high quality possible with smaller formats, but I think the niche is kept unnecessary small due to the current business model. I also think Phase One and Hasselblad are too small to be able to change. They will succeed in price insensitive markets or go under.

    Anyway the success or failure of the new Pentax will tell us if more affordable MF works or not.
    Oh, I don't think it'll fail. It is too good for that price. Depends on what Pentax expects of it. I know Leica had smaller expectations for the S system at first, but pretty quickly exceeded that.

    I'm not sure volume is the way to salvation for photographers these days. I think maybe diversification is.

    More and more volume production situations are being brought in-house by manufacturers, and now even smaller to mid-size ad agencies are looking at cataloging type work as a potential profit center because they are also being squeezed. Trust me, they do not pay their photography staff very much considering what it'd cost to use a more experienced shooter.

    In past, a studio could pay the over-head with the production work and allow solicitation of higher end jobs with facilities to service that type of client.

    Personally, I never shelled out very much capital for MFD equipment. When commercial work transitioned from film to digital, it was common to charge a digital capture fee as a line expense for each job. Usually the equivalent of renting the gear needed. This was actually a bargain for clients because the cost of film, processing and scanning could be $40 to $70 a shot a 100 piece catalog could easily run them $5,000+.

    On average, those fees paid for my MFD kit in about 2 years (sooner for others), then I'd upgrade, and apply the fees against that.

    That business model has all but disappeared as photographers cut each other's throat to get work. Only the top shooters get away with it now or bake it into their usage fees, and often actually do just rent the gear.

    It's tough out there.

    - Marc
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I know Leica had smaller expectations for the S system at first, but pretty quickly exceeded that.
    The Leica effect - It doesn't even really need to function if it's built well enough.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Me being an amateur does not mean that I lack the ability to observe, and I both observe and discuss with professional photgraphers. I dare to say that the client that count pixels is a minority, but I'm sure they exist and obviously you meet them, so you probably need MFD then and the clients can surely pay for that cost.

    However for most it's about general printing needs, and those printing needs have not changed much since the best MF were at 22 megapixels not many years ago.

    As an example I know of a very successful Swedish architectural photographer that has MFD tech cam (Sinar Artec), but it sits on a shelf as the D800 with tilt-shift lenses reached the quality level needed for his professional work and he found the workflow to be more convenient, and his artistic work is mostly made on large format film rather than digital.

    Many instead use MFD from personal reasons, they appreciate the quality themselves, but actually don't need it for satisfying their customers. And then there are different personalities, some want the best because they just like to use the best, and some don't want to spend more money on (any type of) gear than needed and instead get more profit. The same can be seen when it comes to picking a car for professional tasks, some pick the most cost effective alternative that does the job, others pick something extra because they know they will be driving it and like to have something extra. I would not call the more economical person the less professional one... some are just more gear junkies than others

    There's also the special feature needs though, if you're used to high sync speed and use it all the time, you probably want to keep that, and that you happen to have 80 megapixels is because you followed the upgrade path for the system, not that you actually need that level of sharpness. Resolution aside, there are still aspects of the Hassy and 645DF systems that this Pentax can't do.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    NEVER had a problem with my S .... am on my second body. The M digitals were a bit rough ... not so with the S.

    And with service plan that supplies a loaner overnight in most of the Western world if I did it would be covered.

    And while it may not be 80 MP it meets and exceeds most needs....

    Just wish they made a removable back in addition to the unibody.

    JMHO.


    Bob

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Capture fees are still pretty common, as are equipment rental fees. When rates don't go up ya' gotta make it somewhere

    But seriously I've always felt they reflect real value, the time of prepping files, storage, backup, archiving, balancing exposures, wb, etc. to present to clients and that rental fees reflect the suitability of the equipment to the job at hand- lower fees for dslr's and higher for mf. Calling them "rental" fees was a bit of dodge since you did not have a separate company but I think charging a fee for equipment is completely justified as separate since the creative fee is for the talent, and the usage fee is for the usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Oh, I don't think it'll fail. It is too good for that price. Depends on what Pentax expects of it. I know Leica had smaller expectations for the S system at first, but pretty quickly exceeded that.

    I'm not sure volume is the way to salvation for photographers these days. I think maybe diversification is.

    More and more volume production situations are being brought in-house by manufacturers, and now even smaller to mid-size ad agencies are looking at cataloging type work as a potential profit center because they are also being squeezed. Trust me, they do not pay their photography staff very much considering what it'd cost to use a more experienced shooter.

    In past, a studio could pay the over-head with the production work and allow solicitation of higher end jobs with facilities to service that type of client.

    Personally, I never shelled out very much capital for MFD equipment. When commercial work transitioned from film to digital, it was common to charge a digital capture fee as a line expense for each job. Usually the equivalent of renting the gear needed. This was actually a bargain for clients because the cost of film, processing and scanning could be $40 to $70 a shot a 100 piece catalog could easily run them $5,000+.

    On average, those fees paid for my MFD kit in about 2 years (sooner for others), then I'd upgrade, and apply the fees against that.

    That business model has all but disappeared as photographers cut each other's throat to get work. Only the top shooters get away with it now or bake it into their usage fees, and often actually do just rent the gear.

    It's tough out there.

    - Marc

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by robertwright View Post
    Capture fees are still pretty common, as are equipment rental fees. When rates don't go up ya' gotta make it somewhere

    But seriously I've always felt they reflect real value, the time of prepping files, storage, backup, archiving, balancing exposures, wb, etc. to present to clients and that rental fees reflect the suitability of the equipment to the job at hand- lower fees for dslr's and higher for mf. Calling them "rental" fees was a bit of dodge since you did not have a separate company but I think charging a fee for equipment is completely justified as separate since the creative fee is for the talent, and the usage fee is for the usage.
    That's good to know. Around here it has become more difficult to get those Digital Capture Fees as the bigger studios folded and the competition became downright ferocious. I do know that many larger ad agencies still accept "digital package" line item expenses if you own the gear as opposed to renting it.

    BTW, I never called them rental fees the fees were based roughly on what it would have cost to rent comparable equipment in order to justify it to the cost consultants who's mission in life is to question every nickel and dime on an estimate.

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 24th April 2014 at 04:37.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    It would seem Pentax made a very nice camera.
    But is there a complete super high quality eco system?
    From what I've read (yes, now please tell me that only those who've had the thing in their hands are allowed to comment on it) - from what I've read I understand most of the glass is not up to par with P1/H. Does Pentax have the resources or the inclination to complete the system with competitive quality glass? Time will tell. I think they will not, I think they plan to be above 35mm and below P1/H.
    Choose you to forget the very sub par and extremely expensive lenses Phase One make that designs date back to the late 80's and 90's. Do Phase infact make a decent wide lens?? Why do you think so many jump to tech cameras?

    Oh and what about the wonderful Phamiya 645/DF, a true workhorse (sarcastic smilie).

    IMO, the system is what let's the wonderful Phase backs down so I don't think you argument about the Pentax has at weight.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    The body doesn't affect image quality very much, in a controlled environment for still objects. In a non controlled environment with fast moving objects, I would not take a P1.

    Regarding the glass - for me, coming from Canon, all the Mamiya D glass was a huge improvement.
    120AF seems to me one of the best macro lenses made.
    80D is super sharp all over with no problems I've seen.
    Pretty much the same for 45D.
    35 is not great, but still better than Canon.
    I don't do a lot of wide work, so I will take the word of those who say LF lenses do a better job there.

    I don't know the Schneider LS lenses very well, but it seems like a consensus they are as good or better than D generation.

    I don't think its fair to say Phase One lenses are sub par.
    What is the par? Leica? Rosenstock HR?
    I didn't say P1 lenses are the best in the world in every category, but as a lineup, it is easily in the top 5 IMO.
    Last edited by shlomi; 24th April 2014 at 03:49.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    From what I've read (yes, now please tell me that only those who've had the thing in their hands are allowed to comment on it) - from what I've read I understand most of the glass is not up to par with P1/H. Does Pentax have the resources or the inclination to complete the system with competitive quality glass? Time will tell. I think they will not, I think they plan to be above 35mm and below P1/H.
    I think at the MF level most of the lenses are good, or they wouldn't exist. Anyway here's some more reading you may find interesting. An older comparison:

    Pentax 645 FA 35mm Review

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    You clearly didn't meet the client who counts the pixels, or the client who compares the sharpness of your files to his previous project.

    You can find plenty of strong images on instagram - that doesn't mean anyone's paid for them.
    I think everyone's right here. It just depends on what and for whom you make photos to make money.

    "If when you're in financial trouble you sell your MFD, I think it means you're not a pro."

    This may be a bit harsh. In this dog-eat-dog financial environment the photography landscape has changed considerably for any number of hard working pros and it is littered with the bleached bones of those who didn't adapt.

    I have a close friend who's studio had 9 MFD stations working 24/7 on a large food account. He did it for years and dedicated a great deal of resources to that end. Recently at the corporate level they decided to pull it in-house, and gave him a week's notice. He'll likely replace part of that, and was smart enough to financially prepare for that eventuallity but it will take time. Meanwhile, he has a crushing over-head to maintain. Reduction of that overhead is clearly the professional thing to do.

    Our fearless, ever positive, always professional Guy Mancusio had to adapt due to life throwing up some serious road-blocks.

    If no has noticed, advertising has seriously shifted to web based presentations how much resolution do you need for a sub-one meg., sRGB image? Count those pixels.

    Heck, even the wedding photography industry has been gutted by lower demand and less discriminating clients who just want something on their FB page, and rarely order income producing prints or albums anymore. Sure there are still high end weddings to be had, and I get my share but that is a shrinking pie with a lot more "forks" digging into it.

    I'm super happy about sliding into retirement couldn't have picked a better time. Me and my Leica S2 have earned some fun
    I sold all my Hasselbald gear (H4D/40 and H4D/60) and used the money to treat myself to a Lexus for my S2 to ride in

    Soon I can proudly call myself an amateur again (except for a few long time loyal clients).

    Best of luck to all those still in the fray!

    - Marc
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    The body doesn't affect image quality very much.......
    It does if it stops working and freezes up. A historical search will bring up numerous cases of Phamiya wows.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    Regarding the glass - for me, coming from Canon, all the Mamiya D glass was a huge improvement.
    Have you never used the 17mm and especially the 24mm TS-E's? In my book two astounding Canon lenses that Phase One has nothing to touch them.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    120AF seems to me one of the best macro lenses made.
    80D is super sharp all over with no problems I've seen.
    Pretty much the same for 45D.
    Granted they are good lenses but all very old designs carried over from 80's and 90's Mamiya's, 120Macro especially.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    35 is not great, but still better than Canon.
    Thats a matter of opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I don't do a lot of wide work, so I will take the word of those who say LF lenses do a better job there.
    Trust me they are worlds better.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I don't know the Schneider LS lenses very well, but it seems like a consensus they are as good or better than D generation.
    Again incorrect as it has been show by testes that often the LS versions are exactly the same lens as te D versions only with a shutter added.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I don't think its fair to say Phase One lenses are sub par.
    What is the par? Leica? Rosenstock HR?
    I didn't say P1 lenses are the best in the world in every category, but as a lineup, it is easily in the top 5 IMO.
    Like wise I don't think is it fair to disregard Torger's opinion because he's an amateur and doesn't make money from photography. Or for that matter, for you to criticise a camera (Pentax) you know very little about based upon your inaccurate assumptions of the system you currently use?

    This is not a forum for Professional photographers (over used term today) but for people who wish to share their love of PHOTOGRAPHY.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    We've sold quite a few of the Credo 40 promo in the last month and I expect to sell several more before the promo ends.

    If anything I think the interest/publicity/awareness of the 645z to *increase* those sales. We might lose some fraction of people for whom the 645z better fits their needs (eg high ISO at an entry-level price) but most of those people wouldn't have bought a Credo anyway. And we will (based on historical precedent and activity in the last 2 days) more than make up for it by the increase in total interest in higher-end-than-commodity cameras. Our problem is not selling a camera to someone who tries it out; our problem is getting someone who shoots e.g. a 5d3 to try something more when they assume they have the best there is or that they won't care about the difference. So we materially benifit anytime a camera raises awareness and discussion about cameras that are built for image quality. Hence sales have gone up after the d800 launch, up after the 646d, and I expect up after the 645z. And this has been true of our higher-end products and entry-level products. - dougpeterson


    Extolling the virtues of Phase One/Leaf in a Pentax 645 thread speaks volumes to me about the new 645z. At least you never have to advertise as long as other cameras makers keep releasing new models, but we're still waiting for the new DF...aren't we?

    What always starts as a new camera thread turns into a "flat earth" mentality from the usual, whose camera has to be the best. Like most in journalism, this isn't about facts anymore, but more about entertainment...like a side show carnival to create distraction.

    The Pentax 645 models have something to offer many photographers at a reasonable price, what's not to love? Many cameras are enclosed systems for the specific reason they don't need tech movements or want the planned obsolescence of MFD.

    Many of our customers are like this. They end up with an IQ180 or similar as a result of a "gateway" system (D800, Pentax 645, entry-level p1 back) which whets their pallets for better image quality. -dougpeterson

    Doug, this seems to be a rather obvious contradiction to your above comment about getting others to try Phase One/Leaf products.

    Is it possible to just have discussions about other new products without the sleazy feel of distraction or the constant comparisons to the Leica S? It's because of all this that many are intrigued about this new Pentax.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 24th April 2014 at 14:10.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think everyone's right here. It just depends on what and for whom you make photos to make money.

    "If when you're in financial trouble you sell your MFD, I think it means you're not a pro."

    This may be a bit harsh. In this dog-eat-dog financial environment the photography landscape has changed considerably for any number of hard working pros and it is littered with the bleached bones of those who didn't adapt.

    I have a close friend who's studio had 9 MFD stations working 24/7 on a large food account. He did it for years and dedicated a great deal of resources to that end. Recently at the corporate level they decided to pull it in-house, and gave him a week's notice. He'll likely replace part of that, and was smart enough to financially prepare for that eventuallity but it will take time. Meanwhile, he has a crushing over-head to maintain. Reduction of that overhead is clearly the professional thing to do.

    Our fearless, ever positive, always professional Guy Mancusio had to adapt due to life throwing up some serious road-blocks.

    If no has noticed, advertising has seriously shifted to web based presentations how much resolution do you need for a sub-one meg., sRGB image? Count those pixels.

    Heck, even the wedding photography industry has been gutted by lower demand and less discriminating clients who just want something on their FB page, and rarely order income producing prints or albums anymore. Sure there are still high end weddings to be had, and I get my share but that is a shrinking pie with a lot more "forks" digging into it.

    I'm super happy about sliding into retirement couldn't have picked a better time. Me and my Leica S2 have earned some fun
    I sold all my Hasselbald gear (H4D/40 and H4D/60) and used the money to treat myself to a Lexus for my S2 to ride in

    Soon I can proudly call myself an amateur again (except for a few long time loyal clients).

    Best of luck to all those still in the fray!

    - Marc
    I'm still fighting those road blocks and there not going away anytime soon. A wife with 3 cancers is a very harsh blow to your financial situation and health insurance no matter how good you think it is than your sadly mistaken to the real reality of what gets covered and what does not. Anyway I had to divest everything that does not mean I'm any less a Pro if anything I'm a smarter better Pro that has to work magic to compete at the high level. This Pentax opens the door slightly financially and more important technology land features on it look great. So I'm keeping a close eye on it and as far as Phase and Hassy for me there out of the running, just can't afford it and no one is handing me a gift package from either one of them. So I had to move on and more importantly with no remorse. It is what is is and I accept that. It's just freaking gear and means very little in the scheme of life. I'm still a hard working Pro as I always been for 38 years, gear choices will never take that honor away from me , ever.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    We've sold quite a few of the Credo 40 promo in the last month and I expect to sell several more before the promo ends.

    If anything I think the interest/publicity/awareness of the 645z to *increase* those sales. We might lose some fraction of people for whom the 645z better fits their needs (eg high ISO at an entry-level price) but most of those people wouldn't have bought a Credo anyway. And we will (based on historical precedent and activity in the last 2 days) more than make up for it by the increase in total interest in higher-end-than-commodity cameras. Our problem is not selling a camera to someone who tries it out; our problem is getting someone who shoots e.g. a 5d3 to try something more when they assume they have the best there is or that they won't care about the difference. So we materially benifit anytime a camera raises awareness and discussion about cameras that are built for image quality. Hence sales have gone up after the d800 launch, up after the 646d, and I expect up after the 645z. And this has been true of our higher-end products and entry-level products. - dougpeterson


    Yeah, okay... Extolling the virtues of Phase One/Leaf in a Pentax 645 thread speaks volumes to me about the new 645z. At least you never have to advertise as long as other cameras makers keep releasing new models, but we're still waiting for the new DF...aren't we?

    What always starts as a new camera thread turns into a "flat earth" mentality from the the usual, whose camera has to be the best. Like most in journalism, this isn't about facts anymore, but more about entertainment...like a side show carnival to create distraction.

    The Pentax 645 models have something to offer many photographers at a reasonable price, what's not to love? Many cameras are enclosed systems for the specific reason they don't need tech movements or want the planned obsolescence of MFD.

    Many of our customers are like this. They end up with an IQ180 or similar as a result of a "gateway" system (D800, Pentax 645, entry-level p1 back) which whets their pallets for better image quality. -dougpeterson

    Doug, this seems to be a rather obvious contradiction to your above comment about getting others to try Phase One/Leaf products.

    Is it possible to just have discussions about other new products without the sleazy feel of distraction or the constant comparisons to the Leica S? It's because of all this that many are intrigued about this new Pentax.
    Hmm, to be fair, Doug didn't bring up Phase One until someone else said was bad news for P1, and a bunch other's jumped on that band-wagon.

    I think his responses were reasonable given that but more importantly on GetDpi, not personally insulting.

    Good luck with your new Pentax 645.

    - Marc

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm still fighting those road blocks and there not going away anytime soon. A wife with 3 cancers is a very harsh blow to your financial situation and health insurance no matter how good you think it is than your sadly mistaken to the real reality of what gets covered and what does not. Anyway I had to divest everything that does not mean I'm any less a Pro if anything I'm a smarter better Pro that has to work magic to compete at the high level. This Pentax opens the door slightly financially and more important technology land features on it look great. So I'm keeping a close eye on it and as far as Phase and Hassy for me there out of the running, just can't afford it and no one is handing me a gift package from either one of them. So I had to move on and more importantly with no remorse. It is what is is and I accept that. It's just freaking gear and means very little in the scheme of life. I'm still a hard working Pro as I always been for 38 years, gear choices will never take that honor away from me , ever.
    I stand corrected, and certainly didn't mean this type of situation.
    What I meant to say is that I surmise that most of those who downsize their equipment are those for whom the equipment is for fun rather than for work.

    I believe healthcare should be a civil right provided by the government same as law enforcement, and I guess I'm always surprised to hear those stories out of America.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    What I meant to say is that I surmise that most of those who downsize their equipment are those for whom the equipment is for fun rather than for work.
    Not sure of your line of specialisation but MFD has never had such an insignificant effect on running a professional studio as it does today in 2014.

    MFD is a choice NOT a requirement of entry as it was 10 years ago. I've just had my best year since starting my studio 5 years ago and I sold my MFD equipment at the end of last year. I've raised my prices because of the workload not lowered them.......Go figure.

    The Pentax opens doors to everyone (working and non working photographers) and I personally think that is wonderful. Let the flood begin!

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Not sure of your line of specialisation but MFD has never had such an insignificant effect on running a professional studio as it does today in 2014.

    MFD is a choice NOT a requirement of entry as it was 10 years ago. I've just had my best year since starting my studio 5 years ago and I sold my MFD equipment at the end of last year. I've raised my prices because of the workload not lowered them.......Go figure.

    The Pentax opens doors to everyone (working and non working photographers) and I personally think that is wonderful. Let the flood begin!
    Let me ask you this question one: did you sell your MFD because you were strapped for cash, or did you feel it was not the best tool for you?

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    No worries I knew you did not mean this kind of stuff but I will say as Marc mentioned a lot of Pros have downsized for many reasons. Economy is certain line of them and list clients. However with tech advances to 36 mpx it does give 35mm a huge bonus to the Pros. Depending in work we can cheat better now to get closer to MF quality. For me giving up my MF kit was devastating but at the time it was a easier drop in quality to move on to a Nikon d800e without a tremendous drop in quality. Other factors are real needs some shooters never need anything past a double truck ad or less. One big factor that no ones talk about much is the general lack in clients to just take anything handed to them under budget. Better said the quality standard has dropped to iPhones and these smartphones really did no one any favors in our business. Everyone is a shooter now in some clients minds. In the corporate world major changes have happened and external items like photography are non existent now. It's a real challenge to survive.

    On health care The US sucks and I'm totally with you on it being free to its citizens. Case in point you go out of your insurance network and they charge LIST price on services. They can't even get those fees from insurance companies but they can sure rape you over coals if your out if network. I got killed here and it's simply not fair to any citizen.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Typos I'm on iPhone sorry
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    Let me ask you this question one: did you sell your MFD because you were strapped for cash, or did you feel it was not the best tool for you?
    I loved it and the view and tech camera kit I owned but they didn't win me any work. I never got a job because I shot MFD despite the marketing rubbish you read but because of all the time and hard work I put into the shoot.

    MFD became a passion/hobby and an unnecessary requirement. MFD residuals have dropped through the floor and upgrade programmes less favourable so why keep hold of an ever devaluing asset in your business if you don't need it.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I got killed here and it's simply not fair to any citizen.
    I think it's quite intentional, and the world is looking in terror how your upper class is demolishing your middle class, and thinking when will this reach our neighborhood.

    As far as the market it naturally undergoes fundamental changes as the circumstances do. The "strong image" as someone said here, obviously doesn't need a professional camera or even a professional photographer. Just look at any of the image sharing sites and you will see an amazing plethora of quality. Literally billions have become photographers overnight, and by the laws of numbers some of them ought to be good. There is no more monopoly on photography. But I find there are many industrial clients who want clean tech images, and they have no problem paying for it $1000-2000 a day. The days for $5000 per 100 image catalog are over, that's true, as it just does not make sense any longer in the current ecosystem. The market requirements are different, but I feel the market is only getting bigger. Almost any business requires online presence and that includes images. The short tail of the fancy photographers with their fancy billing has been replaced by a more practical approach.
    Last edited by shlomi; 24th April 2014 at 08:53.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I loved it and the view and tech camera kit I owned but they didn't win me any work. I never got a job because I shot MFD despite the marketing rubbish you read but because of all the time and hard work I put into the shoot.

    MFD became a passion/hobby and an unnecessary requirement. MFD residuals have dropped through the floor and upgrade programmes less favourable so why keep hold of an ever devaluing asset in your business if you don't need it.
    So your answer is that you got rid of your MFD because you felt it was not the right tool for your business. I don't argue with that, and for sure it is not necessary for every photography business. I've never read any marketing materials from any MFD firm. I've encountered some obstacles with 35mm and explored ways to improve the quality of my output. Not counting on anyone's opinions but only upon my own experimentation. I can say for sure that some of my clients come back and refer based on qualities I can deliver that others can't: colors, clarity, sharpness, pixels. I'm sure at least half of them can't tell the difference.

    I can sell my MFD now, but I will get 50c on the dollar in a good scenario.
    Then if I would buy a full top of the line Canon setup, it will cost me not that much less.
    And the quality of my deliverables deteriorates, by much or not that is debateable, but by some for sure.
    That doesn't make much sense to me.
    If I'm working and MFD is right for me, then I will not sell it.
    I will sell it if I am not working, or if it turns out to be not right for me.
    Last edited by shlomi; 24th April 2014 at 08:46.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    So your answer is that you got rid of your MFD because you felt it was not the right tool for your business.
    I'd say it was a luxury toy because I could afford it but I didn't need it.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Hmm, to be fair, Doug didn't bring up Phase One until someone else said was bad news for P1, and a bunch other's jumped on that band-wagon.

    I think his responses were reasonable given that … but more importantly on GetDpi, not personally insulting.

    Good luck with your new Pentax 645.

    - Marc
    Nothing is meant to be personal, but it's not his first time - the tawdry biz of photography i guess, but there's a vendor forum here... isn't there?
    I haven't purchased a Pentax...yet, but i am intrigued. After owning the H4D's, The DF, and Leica S, not one has my loyalty. Go film!
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 24th April 2014 at 14:14.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Additional variables beyond lens quality:
    - dark frame technology
    - raw processing

    Both are very important especially at the fringes (especially high ISO or especially long exposures). The guys who developed the IQ250 hardware are down the hall from, work with, drink with, and otherwise tightly coordinate with the guys making the software. The software guys at C1 also have a very strong incentive to spend lots of extra time tweaking C1's processing of IQ250 files to get the very most out of the files, and they had access to prototype samples for months before the launch (see the Phase One IQ250 story I wrote).

    For a more valid comparison you'd want to wait until you can run raws through LR to compare. Only time will tell how much time Adobe spends on catering their processing to get the most out of those raw files.
    Doug, no offense, but you really are coming across as total team phase one.

    What you say is good about the software developers and hardware developers being able to have direct access to each other.
    But at the end of the day, I have run my IQ180 files through Lightroom and Capture One and I prefer Lightroom's interface where everything is in the develop tab vs capture one, white balance is in a different area than other color editing options.

    I am pretty reliably able to get good results from the files out of both editors.

    Quote Originally Posted by jon11 View Post
    yes. but with lightroom you can easily export photos as advanced object in photoshop and with a click had images stacked. i don't know if the results can keep up with helicon results, never tried. but in my opioni lightroom is very flexible. personally i tried capture one and is probably the worst software i have ever tried. but maybe i never studied it deeply.
    helicon focus has a plugin for lightroom i believe.

    I have compared it to stacking with photoshop and its really no contest, helicon is way better.


    @Guy - I am curious why you think canikon is dying. I purchased a d800e after selling my IQ180 and its a great little(i use this term loosely) camera. Is it medium format? Nope but it is flexible enough for me to do more with it than I could the IQ180.

    Don't get me wrong I would really love to have another IQ160 or 180 but the price is just too much for me right now.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    It does if it stops working and freezes up. A historical search will bring up numerous cases of Phamiya wows.
    Very rarey happens to me but I'm sure it is much less stable than Canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Have you never used the 17mm and especially the 24mm TS-E's? In my book two astounding Canon lenses that Phase One has nothing to touch them.
    Never used these specific lenses but all the wides I did use on Canon were very bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Granted they are good lenses but all very old designs carried over from 80's and 90's Mamiya's, 120Macro especially.
    120AF was redesigned - in any case if the result is good then I am happy - I don't need a new design.
    120MF was not redesigned, but three generations of the lens showed distinct improvements every time - I've meticulously tested this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Again incorrect as it has been show by testes that often the LS versions are exactly the same lens as te D versions only with a shutter added.
    My testing on 80mm showed what you said and I was happy to sell the new one and keep the old one which was perfect. It was my impression from what others said, that LS is an improvement for instance in 55mm, 150mm and 75-150mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Like wise I don't think is it fair to disregard Torger's opinion because he's an amateur and doesn't make money from photography. Or for that matter, for you to criticise a camera (Pentax) you know very little about based upon your inaccurate assumptions of the system you currently use?
    I disregarded torger opinion only on making money from photographs, which I think he is not doing and I am.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by wryphotography View Post

    But at the end of the day, I have run my IQ180 files through Lightroom and Capture One and I prefer Lightroom's interface where everything is in the develop tab vs capture one, white balance is in a different area than other color editing options.

    I am pretty reliably able to get good results from the files out of both editors.


    I never tried anything but C1 with IQ160.
    It's good to know, I'm going to try Lightromm. And ARC, too. It will be good to exercise new software for upcoming Pentax. I'm so stuck with C1, I've never even thought about replacing IQ with other brand. Now I will.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by wryphotography View Post

    But at the end of the day, I have run my IQ180 files through Lightroom and Capture One and I prefer Lightroom's interface where everything is in the develop tab vs capture one, white balance is in a different area than other color editing options.
    I'm sure Doug will respond, but C1 is insanely configurable. If you want a bunch of tools on one tab, you can set that up in 3 minutes. And different tools setups are quickly swappable.

    Getting . Sorry. Carry on!

    --Matt
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by wryphotography View Post
    Doug, no offense, but you really are coming across as total team phase one.

    What you say is good about the software developers and hardware developers being able to have direct access to each other.
    But at the end of the day, I have run my IQ180 files through Lightroom and Capture One and I prefer Lightroom's interface where everything is in the develop tab vs capture one, white balance is in a different area than other color editing options.
    No offense taken: I am a total Team Phase One guy. It's what I know best and what I do day to day and where I make my living. I try very hard to make sure I'm not hiding that my opinions are naturally biased (e.g. mentioning it anytime someone is posting who has not been here long, and putting my job title in my signature for every post), even if I try to keep perspective and avoid entirely intoxicating myself on the koolaid.

    In C1 you can add any tool to any tab, and reduce the number of tabs as aggressively as you wish. The default interface rarely is the ideal interface for any user, but the ability to (in a minute or two) radically rearrange the interface is one of it's strongest suits. If you'd like any help on that (e.g. if you'd otherwise prefer C1 for other strengths but this is a major obstacle to using it) I'd gladly step you through it via screen sharing.

    Here for instance you can see an interface I've customized to have White Balance and the Color Editor in a dedicated tab by themselves, which is accessible by keyboard shortcut. In the second screen grab I've customized to have (my personal) frequently accessed tools all in the same tab accessible by keyboard shortcut. If you have enough screen real estate you can have every tool open, some of them floating, some of them docked, some of them on a second screen etc.


    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    You can add tools to any Tab. Just righ click on it and you'll see Add Tool option. Add whichever you want. I use Quck Tab (Q sign) to add all the tools I need under one Tab.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Ok, Doug was quick.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by wryphotography View Post
    Doug, no offense, but you really are coming across as total team phase one.

    What you say is good about the software developers and hardware developers being able to have direct access to each other.
    But at the end of the day, I have run my IQ180 files through Lightroom and Capture One and I prefer Lightroom's interface where everything is in the develop tab vs capture one, white balance is in a different area than other color editing options.

    I am pretty reliably able to get good results from the files out of both editors.


    helicon focus has a plugin for lightroom i believe.

    I have compared it to stacking with photoshop and its really no contest, helicon is way better.


    @Guy - I am curious why you think canikon is dying. I purchased a d800e after selling my IQ180 and its a great little(i use this term loosely) camera. Is it medium format? Nope but it is flexible enough for me to do more with it than I could the IQ180.

    Don't get me wrong I would really love to have another IQ160 or 180 but the price is just too much for me right now.

    Billy it seems both of them and Canon is worse that no real updates in there systems. Sure we see all these lower level cams but Nikon is going on 3 years I believe on the D800e and nothing seems to be hitting the market. Sony on the other hand seems in financial woes but it's not the camera division so they are taking aggressive steps to keep adding product to support the company. There sensor division is now supplying the whole CMOS MF market now with Hassy, Phase and now Pentax with there CMOS chips. So I feel Sony is on a serious path to get market share . It seems pretty obvious almost monthly something new announced. But this train needs to keep rolling from all of them and some seem glued to the tracks. I hope that don't last long either. We as users need choices not one completely dominating the market.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    No offense taken: I am a total Team Phase One guy. It's what I know best and what I do day to day and where I make my living. I try very hard to make sure I'm not hiding that my opinions are naturally biased (e.g. mentioning it anytime someone is posting who has not been here long, and putting my job title in my signature for every post), even if I try to keep perspective and avoid entirely intoxicating myself on the koolaid.

    In C1 you can add any tool to any tab, and reduce the number of tabs as aggressively as you wish. The default interface rarely is the ideal interface for any user, but the ability to (in a minute or two) radically rearrange the interface is one of it's strongest suits. If you'd like any help on that (e.g. if you'd otherwise prefer C1 for other strengths but this is a major obstacle to using it) I'd gladly step you through it via screen sharing.

    Here for instance you can see an interface I've customized to have White Balance and the Color Editor in a dedicated tab by themselves, which is accessible by keyboard shortcut. In the second screen grab I've customized to have (my personal) frequently accessed tools all in the same tab accessible by keyboard shortcut. If you have enough screen real estate you can have every tool open, some of them floating, some of them docked, some of them on a second screen etc.


    I did not know that, thanks. It is definitely annoying to go back and forth since i play with White balance and tint a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Billy it seems both of them and Canon is worse that no real updates in there systems. Sure we see all these lower level cams but Nikon is going on 3 years I believe on the D800e and nothing seems to be hitting the market. Sony on the other hand seems in financial woes but it's not the camera division so they are taking aggressive steps to keep adding product to support the company. There sensor division is now supplying the whole CMOS MF market now with Hassy, Phase and now Pentax with there CMOS chips. So I feel Sony is on a serious path to get market share . It seems pretty obvious almost monthly something new announced. But this train needs to keep rolling from all of them and some seem glued to the tracks. I hope that don't last long either. We as users need choices not one completely dominating the market.
    The d800 didnt come out till feb of 2012. So its been 2+ years.

    I would expect to see something from them around the 3 year mark, but they have already announced the D4s if i recall correctly?

    Sensor wise I dont know what else they can do though, a modest MP update is negligible when you have 36.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I think Mamiya ZD was too early.
    I agree to some extent, but what really hurt it was the choice of sensor: the Dalsa FTF4052C had excellent 22MP resolution and size for its day, but terribly low quantum efficiency and terribly high readout and dark noise; so it fell apart above ISO 100 (!!) and above 5 seconds (!!) of "long" exposure. The 35mm DSLR users that it was aimed at were completely turned off by this. Existing Mamiya users largely turned up their noses as well; for one thing, they had plenty of DB options.

    If you look at the integrated MF DSLRs from Pentax and Leica, similar in concept to the ZD but more successful in the marketplace, both these cameras are respectable high ISO and long exposure performers...with microlensed Kodak CCDs.

    So if the ZD had used the slightly smaller, but still Pentax 645D-sized, 18MP Kodak KAF-18000, with about 3x the quantum efficiency (in part thanks to microlenses) and lower noise levels, Mamiya might have had a winner. This is the same sensor used in the P21+ back. The ZD2 could have followed up with the KAF-31600 (P30+, H3D-30), and the ZD3 with the KAF-40000 (Pentax 645D, H4D-40). Ah, what could have been...

    Ray
    Last edited by ondebanks; 24th April 2014 at 21:09. Reason: spelling

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