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Thread: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The Kodak ProBacks were actually very innovative for their time and priced much more attractively than most competing solutions back then.
    Indeed: the first truly portable self-contained backs with compact Li-Ion battery, CF card storage, LCD review screen and a user interface. The design that we take for granted nowadays when we think "digital back".

    Interestingly - since it is the same as the Pentax situation we are discussing in this thread - it was Kodak's major R&D in 35mm DSLRs that allowed them to make such leaps in MFD. The user interface on the ProBacks is 95% the same as that of the digital subsystem on the Nikon F5-based Kodak DCS 720x and 760, and I bet much the same is true of the Canon F1N-based Kodak DCS 520 and 560.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I recall all the hubbub required to fit a ProBack 645C to my Contax 645 … Kodak said it was the camera that was out of whack and Kyocera said it was Kodak's fault. Finally Kodak asked me to send in the back and camera and calibrated everything for me. To do that for all the different cameras that a ProBack could be used on would have been a daunting service task.
    What was the actual problem, Marc? Images not in focus because of focal plane positional uncertainty/thickness tolerances? Or was the problem connected to the Contax's rather limited ability to "talk" to DBs (some distance behind its contemporaries, the Mamiya 645AFD and Hasselblad H1)?

    Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe the tolerances are better, but my ProBack 645M has mated perfectly to both Mamiya 645AFD bodies I've used.

    Ray

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm still fighting those road blocks and there not going away anytime soon. A wife with 3 cancers is a very harsh blow to your financial situation and health insurance no matter how good you think it is than your sadly mistaken to the real reality of what gets covered and what does not. Anyway I had to divest everything that does not mean I'm any less a Pro if anything I'm a smarter better Pro that has to work magic to compete at the high level. This Pentax opens the door slightly financially and more important technology land features on it look great. So I'm keeping a close eye on it and as far as Phase and Hassy for me there out of the running, just can't afford it and no one is handing me a gift package from either one of them. So I had to move on and more importantly with no remorse. It is what is is and I accept that. It's just freaking gear and means very little in the scheme of life. I'm still a hard working Pro as I always been for 38 years, gear choices will never take that honor away from me , ever.
    I and I'm sure others could write a dissertation on both what you expressed in your post (above) and also what constitutes a pro photographer. My simple thoughts are this....what equipment one owns and uses has little to do whether one is a pro or not and it's been a long time illusion that it does. Knowledge and ability and how to use that knowledge to achieve results is what in large part constitutes to making a professional. Creativity to utilize ones output to achieve a finished product that their client is both pleased and impressed with and how it's handled and presented also contribute to what constitutes a professional.

    Owning all the 600 f4 and $6,000 lenses and/or $8,000 cameras put there aren't going to contribute by definition to a person being a pro...but vision and know how most certainly will.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    The word 'professional' is someone who does something as a profession. You can't change that definition. Regardless of skillset, know how, equipment or even experience. If you aren't making money from it you're not a professional. I think it's an important differentiation. If you aren't working in the field, under the pressure of having to make money from a certain skill set then your opinion on the profession has to be taken as anecdotal or based on theories and numbers rather than the sharing of real world experience. Not that it isn't valuable but it's far from the whole story.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Nothing is meant to be personal, but it's not his first time - the tawdry biz of photography i guess, but there's a vendor forum here... isn't there?
    I haven't purchased a Pentax...yet, but i am intrigued. After owning the H4D's, The DF, and Leica S, not one has my loyalty. Go film!
    Given the luck you've had with all three brands of MFD kits, the Pentax folks should pray that you do NOT buy one of their cameras

    - Marc

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No worries I knew you did not mean this kind of stuff but I will say as Marc mentioned a lot of Pros have downsized for many reasons. Economy is certain line of them and list clients. However with tech advances to 36 mpx it does give 35mm a huge bonus to the Pros. Depending in work we can cheat better now to get closer to MF quality. For me giving up my MF kit was devastating but at the time it was a easier drop in quality to move on to a Nikon d800e without a tremendous drop in quality. Other factors are real needs some shooters never need anything past a double truck ad or less. One big factor that no ones talk about much is the general lack in clients to just take anything handed to them under budget. Better said the quality standard has dropped to iPhones and these smartphones really did no one any favors in our business. Everyone is a shooter now in some clients minds. In the corporate world major changes have happened and external items like photography are non existent now. It's a real challenge to survive.

    On health care The US sucks and I'm totally with you on it being free to its citizens. Case in point you go out of your insurance network and they charge LIST price on services. They can't even get those fees from insurance companies but they can sure rape you over coals if your out if network. I got killed here and it's simply not fair to any citizen.
    Half the people probably don't even know what a double truck spread is Guy
    (It is derived from ads that featured large tractor- trailer truck(s) where a two page spread was needed to show the whole truck.

    "Rape you over the coals." had me spitting my coffee all over the screen. Sounds like something the Marquis de Sade would enjoy.

    I love mixed metaphors and malapropos remarks. A creative guy that worked for me was a master at inappropriately combining colloquial phrases. My favorite was delivered at a big creative presentation where "Spine Tingling" and "Mind Boggling" were tossed in a blender … "What we have here gentlemen, is a spine boggling idea".

    - Marc
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    So your answer is that you got rid of your MFD because you felt it was not the right tool for your business. I don't argue with that, and for sure it is not necessary for every photography business. I've never read any marketing materials from any MFD firm. I've encountered some obstacles with 35mm and explored ways to improve the quality of my output. Not counting on anyone's opinions but only upon my own experimentation. I can say for sure that some of my clients come back and refer based on qualities I can deliver that others can't: colors, clarity, sharpness, pixels. I'm sure at least half of them can't tell the difference.

    I can sell my MFD now, but I will get 50c on the dollar in a good scenario.
    Then if I would buy a full top of the line Canon setup, it will cost me not that much less.
    And the quality of my deliverables deteriorates, by much or not that is debateable, but by some for sure.
    That doesn't make much sense to me.
    If I'm working and MFD is right for me, then I will not sell it.
    I will sell it if I am not working, or if it turns out to be not right for me.
    I think this is a good balanced POV.

    If one was wise in their selection of tools, then they should remain viable a lot longer than all the sales hype enticing photographers to upgrade would seem to indicate.

    I also think one has to like and take pride in what they are producing on a personal level. Clients may demand less today, but we must continue to demand more of ourselves. Otherwise, the clients start setting the standards and there is absolutely no way that can be good. I doubt any pro would hire a client to even be an assistant, let alone a photographer.

    - Marc
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I like 'spine boggling' What a great phrase just in time for the Leica T
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    If you aren't making money from it you're not a professional.
    I think the appropriate definition of a professional photographer, is someone who derives most of their income from photography.
    If you are living off your trust fund and also sell the odd photograph, then your perspective is that of an amateur - you do what feels right and not what must be done whether you like it or not.

    The obvious association of "pro" is "high level", but in reality it will not be difficult to find some amateurs who produce images better than some pros.
    Many amateurs think as a pro you strive to create more and more magnificent images and then the clients magically find you. In reality the clients come to you to shoot whatever they need, and some of it might not be pretty at all. You need to be predictable, consistent, courteous, on time and on budget.

    Sometimes I got people in for marketing portraits where I couldn't believe that person would consent to be photographed - but you have to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I also think one has to like and take pride in what they are producing on a personal level. Clients may demand less today, but we must continue to demand more of ourselves. Otherwise, the clients start setting the standards and there is absolutely no way that can be good. I doubt any pro would hire a client to even be an assistant, let alone a photographer.
    It can be difficult to maintain the line of doing what the client wants and doing what you think is right. If you always do what they want, inevitably some of it will turn out awful, and then they blame you for it. On the other hand if you are a prima donna and only do things your way, the client wouldn't love you either.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I like 'spine boggling' What a great phrase just in time for the Leica T
    "Mind Tingling" could be the alternative, or used in their second "afternoon" presentation .

    Ben, I agree with your statement that a professional is by definition one who makes money from their profession. At the same time I do think "skill set" and "know how" is also part of the equation even though these may be attributes that a good many amateurs also possess. It's not any one factor or attribute that can define one as a professional vs. one who's not, but I think most of us when we encounter a professional, especially in the arena we work in, certainly can identify those who represent their livelihood at a level that goes well beyond enthusiast or hobbyist. Objectives for these two groups are different and most of all one's responsibilities to others are different. In the case of professional, one's livelihood and equally important, one's reputation is always on the line.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I think the appropriate definition of a professional photographer, is someone who derives most of their income from photography.
    If you are living off your trust fund and also sell the odd photograph, then your perspective is that of an amateur - you do what feels right and not what must be done whether you like it or not.

    The obvious association of "pro" is "high level", but in reality it will not be difficult to find some amateurs who produce images better than some pros.
    Many amateurs think as a pro you strive to create more and more magnificent images and then the clients magically find you. In reality the clients come to you to shoot whatever they need, and some of it might not be pretty at all. You need to be predictable, consistent, courteous, on time and on budget.

    Sometimes I got people in for marketing portraits where I couldn't believe that person would consent to be photographed - but you have to do it.

    It can be difficult to maintain the line of doing what the client wants and doing what you think is right. If you always do what they want, inevitably some of it will turn out awful, and then they blame you for it. On the other hand if you are a prima donna and only do things your way, the client wouldn't love you either.
    In the ad business that is called "shooting the board" … which may well be wise as well as necessary because the layout has gone through multiple levels of client approval, plus qualitative and quantitative consumer testing. The best pro photographers know this, and understand how to "plus" the board without changing the essential content or messaging elements. They also have a common trait … they are very convincing when selling their ideas, which escapes some photographers.

    Too many photographers haven't a clue about how the process actually works, what dynamics are in play, or sometimes even how they get selected.

    These days most clients are not allergic to making something better as long as it doesn't cost them anything. If you are a decent photographer, you can usually outstrip their expectations, and keep on budget. This can lead to more work with a proven value that you can ask more for, IF you know how to sell it, rather than just raising the price.

    Finding amateur photographers that produce better images is a prevalent notion because the internet forms a collective that no single photographer can compete with, pro or not.

    - Marc
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    The obvious association of "pro" is "high level", but in reality it will not be difficult to find some amateurs who produce images better than some pros.
    That is a modern inflection on the word "pro." It was not that long ago when the amateur (coming from the Latin to love or lover) was considered the superior position. Pros, after all, were just doing it for the money. And the recognition of commercial art as fine art is also very recent. (Depending on the period in history, both "amateur" and "professional" were used as pejoratives.)

    There are two problems with the idea of finding the amateur that is "better." How do you grade "better" in a work of art? And is a particular photograph indicative of the photographer's work, or an outlier. One part of mastering an art form, and I think that is a better expression in regards to this, is that the photographer consistently does good work. Many people that derive a living from photography are consistent.

    Now, the idea that pros are somehow at a pinnacle of the art is really too narrow a definition and not one that is true. The photographers that run Sears photo portrait studios are pros, but there are certainly better examples of portraits. Julia Margaret Cameron was an amateur. Many of who we think are great photographers subsidized their photography with other jobs or can simply afford it.

    Personally, I think the idea of mastery is much better. It has nothing to do with personal taste, but a level of execution that is consistent and high. It also goes beyond what you like or dislike--believe it or not, quality in photography is not obvious (pictures of cute fuzzy animals and half naked beautiful people being the apparent exception), it is a lot tricker than that.

    The tools are important in two ways. They do not hamper the way you work and they provide a quality and look you want. That is it. It does not matter if that is a Holga, MFD, cell phone, 8x10 monorail, or pinhole camera. Now, if we were really honest, photographers would admit the real reason they buy a particular camera is because they think it is cool, but that would be a hard sell to the significant other--justification is just the rationalization of desire.
    Will

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Well I do buy cameras that I like as well but it is mostly driven by what I can do with it or features that help me produce better. Focus peaking for example has nothing to do with the client but it helps me be more accurate. So yes tools are a good part of what drives the boat and they do help us in many ways. On the client side it makes no difference in general what you used to do it as long as the gear can produce technically great images. Now I will say some clients do like our MF monsters to be used on there projects and it does say something about you as a working Pro that you care enough to produce images with the best gear around. It means your serious about what you do and represent yourself. Some may argue that point but it does matter just like it does matter showing up in a pair of shorts and tee shirt to a corporate event. Its all about how you represent yourself to your client. Bottom line you need to look good and one can argue this one all day long but I would not want a sloppy photographer shooting my daughters wedding come next February. I'll send the bozo home. LOL

    Now shooting for clients is the same mentality you do what they ask as there writing the checks plan and simple your working for the man. Now that does not mean and a I know I do it on every shoot is interject your thoughts on how it should be done or look and or make suggestions on angle, lighting and style of a image. You are getting paid here for your art and your professional experience. So usually that input is wanted, needed and accepted. But you need also to do this in a Professional manner instead of being a *** about it and say for example I am only shooting it from this angle or something like that and ignoring the clients needs. I promise you you won't be back. I have very long term clients and reason is that I produce images that the clients need in a environment that is professional, friendly and with team work between client and photographer to accomplish what the clients needs are. You do that every time and represent yourself in a professional way than you will be back. In all of this your still putting your stamp of what you like in those images but one must remember always and this is important. Your working for pay and ultimately the client always has to win.

    Now that's what a consider the definition of the word Pro. Talented artistic with a great style but handles themselves to serve there clients needs in the most respectable way about it and create long term relationships that work in a team environment to reach the end goal. And important here represent yourself in a Professional manner. I have a long list on how to do that and it involves you as a person as being a really nice guy or girl on a personal level.

    Old saying here and maybe a over cooked one but the fact remains its far easier to be nice than being a *** and much more profitable.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    The distinction between pro and amateur (or enthusiasts if you prefer), is not difficult nor complex.

    A pro is provided purpose and gets paid to full-fill that purpose. The amateur defines their own purpose … they can sell their results as art, but the buyer didn't provide the purpose before hand.

    Personally and professionally, I don't buy gear just because it is "cool". Nothing cool about $100K in Hasselblad H gear … what would be cool is a $100K Porsche, … or a beach shack in Belize.

    - Marc

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I think we can walk away from the word "cool", because that's not where it's really at.
    I think we need to ask ourselves the question: what do we love more, the equipment, or taking pictures.
    I think in a forum like this one, there would be many for the latter.
    Not that anyone would admit it in public.
    Or that there's anything wrong with that.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Interesting Ricoh page on the 645Z. I enjoyed the comments from the engineers and the refreshing lack of hyperbole. The text is certainly translated from the Japanese; the English version looks to have produced by the equivalent Google translate. Pentax has never had the most sophisticated advertising; kind of charming really.

    Tom

    PENTAX 645Z Special site | RICOH IMAGING
    Last edited by tsjanik; 25th April 2014 at 13:41.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Tom, that is great and classic lets-translate-the-Japanese-literally-into-English-with-someone-not-knowing-photographic-vocabulary thing.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The distinction between pro and amateur (or enthusiasts if you prefer), is not difficult nor complex.

    A pro is provided purpose and gets paid to full-fill that purpose. The amateur defines their own purpose … they can sell their results as art, but the buyer didn't provide the purpose before hand.

    Personally and professionally, I don't buy gear just because it is "cool". Nothing cool about $100K in Hasselblad H gear … what would be cool is a $100K Porsche, … or a beach shack in Belize.

    - Marc
    i just want to say, that this whole debate is asinine and really rates as who cares? However, your definition is narrow. As there are lots of "pro" photographers that go out and shoot wildlife and landscapes and then sell their work, full time. Your definition implies that someone has to pay a photographer to go out and shoot for them to be a pro.
    ~Billy

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Personally and professionally, I don't buy gear just because it is "cool". Nothing cool about $100K in Hasselblad H gear … what would be cool is a $100K Porsche, … or a beach shack in Belize.

    - Marc
    No, not "just." And for certain type of photography there are legitimate technical considerations. But when you line up a bunch of cameras that are essentially the same, what is the final arbiter of the purchase? And if GetDPI is any indication, when a new camera comes out followed by a huge numbers of pre-orders, I think drool is a bigger motivator than hunger. Now, if someone had a great H system and it was performing all the tasks it needed to, what is the motivation, at least in part, for a Leica S?

    Don't get me wrong, I think this type of superficiality is really important. I can see why you would want to buy an S. And I did qualify that it had to work well for the photographer and realize a certain quality/look in the images. But the reason Pentax is not the death of the DF nor H is not on the spec sheet, is because of the coolness factor--those intangible qualities that drive our choices.

    I don't mind admitting my superficiality. I loved shooting square. I had a perfectly adequate square camera. But that did not mean my eyes did not wander. And then one day the "perfect" square camera came out. I used it as my primary camera for over a decade. Made great work. It never let me down. But if I were rationally buying a 6x6 system, I would never have bought a Mamiya 6 as there are "better" systems/cameras out there for 6x6. Now, I could come up with all kinds of reasons why 6x6, why a rangefinder, why leaf shutters--you hear these reasons all the time. But none of that actually means I could not have done the same work with a different camera, a more practical camera. The Mamiya 6 just caught my fancy, my imagination. It was and is the bee's knees and it felt so great shooting it.

    Marc, you may be impervious to these intangibles, I don't know. Most of my photographer friends and the folks here at GetDPI seems to be in love, or at least like, the equipment they shoot, even if they need certain professional or technical considerations. Many will accept the limitations of their choice to work with this equipment--Alpa TC, for example. If desire/coolness is not driving the choice, then what is?

    I have found the only time folks are practical is when they are buying garbage bags...
    Will

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I think we can walk away from the word "cool", because that's not where it's really at.
    I think we need to ask ourselves the question: what do we love more, the equipment, or taking pictures.
    I think in a forum like this one, there would be many for the latter.
    Not that anyone would admit it in public.
    Or that there's anything wrong with that.
    You don't think photography is cool? You don't think the tools we use are cool? I guess I might be unique here. I love photography. It has been the one constant thing in my life. I also can't imagine a social forum that revolves around photograph would be populated by people that don't think anything related to it is not cool.

    It is not which is more cool, the stuff or the art. They are inseparable. Some folks really like the gear, and that is great. Others lean the other way. But it is still a continuum that needs both ends. It really does not matter where you are on this scale simply because you are here for the fun of it, no matter how "seriously" you take this "fun."
    Will

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Well let's face some facts we are all gear whores. At least generally speaking be it Pro or not. The difference is a Pro should justify the ROI and use of the gear. Noticed I said should, not all of us do that. Guilty to a certain degree.

    The hobbyist on the other hand has no one to justify a gear purchase except maybe there spouse. So certainly a lot more freedom on purchases on wants and needs. I'm forced to buy certain gear for example. Mid range zoom for example. Hate them but I need them
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Given the luck you've had with all three brands of MFD kits, the Pentax folks should pray that you do NOT buy one of their cameras

    - Marc
    Careful with assumptions... only the H4D had quality control issues, the others were either insanely overpriced for what they produced or just cheap. The Pentax is certainly worthy of consideration for MFD.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I think the bottom line here on the Pentax in general it opens some doors in the market that may not have been around for a lot of us. A Leica S system , phase system and Hassy system are all expensive and only certain needs and financial ability would a lot of folks look to buy them. We all know that percentage of market is small. This price point on Pentax offers a unique market split that a bigger percentage will look at. It will regardless of money and let's say you can afford the other three without blinking a eye but will still view the Pentax on a feature level more and maybe more appealing. The 35mm folks looking to jump in may see the Pentax as a very good enter point over there DSLR system and will stretch the budget some and also not lose what there 35mm can do feature wise. So this will tap different markets better than maybe anything else as it rides the borderline of running the middle of these markets and not so expensive to jump in and others to grab some features that the bigger guns don't have. Again the bigger boys need to wake up this is a threat and not sure how you cut the cheese its a much bigger threat than it was on the original Pentax.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by wryphotography View Post
    i just want to say, that this whole debate is asinine and really rates as who cares? However, your definition is narrow. As there are lots of "pro" photographers that go out and shoot wildlife and landscapes and then sell their work, full time. Your definition implies that someone has to pay a photographer to go out and shoot for them to be a pro.
    +1!!!

    Excellent Point!

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I don't have the patience to read all of these posts, but,

    Isn't there a difference between "pro photographers" and "pro gear?" Whether or not a person can only be a pro when he or she earns a living taking pictures, it seems clear that equipment can be "pro" whoever uses it. I own a couple of things that are pro gear, but I'm far from a pro.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I don't have the patience to read all of these posts, but,

    Isn't there a difference between "pro photographers" and "pro gear?" Whether or not a person can only be a pro when he or she earns a living taking pictures, it seems clear that equipment can be "pro" whoever uses it. I own a couple of things that are pro gear, but I'm far from a pro.
    That's true, although conversely gear such as the $100 dollar Holga can be used by pros too and prints sold for a tidy sum. I'd put the emphasis on "only". The Pentax 645D/Z is certainly a "pro" camera that in capable hands, can compete with most any closed DB MFD camera on the market today.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 25th April 2014 at 13:21.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Hi,

    I guess this is true unless:

    • Comparison is made with a high en back having 80 or so MP
    • A removable back is needed that can be used on a technical camera

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    … The Pentax 645D/Z is certainly a "pro" camera that in capable hands, can compete with any MFD camera on the market today.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Same could be said for a Leica S or for that matter any DSLR on the market.

    I think the best way to describe Pro gear is more about build quality, service, support and system. We really can't tag a photographer to it. I'm a Pro and I don't consider my Sonys Pro gear. Now I agree its a very lose definition and back in the day it was a OEM tag that meant built to withstand daily use by working Pros . Now hobbyists do that too so you attaching the word Pro to gear was probably a bad idea. It was really meant built for heavy use or something of that nature. At least that's the way I view it or even shutter life.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    I guess this is true unless:

    • Comparison is made with a high en back having 80 or so MP
    • A removable back is needed that can be used on a technical camera

    Best regards
    Erik
    You're right Erik,

    I corrected my comment...thanks!

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by wryphotography View Post
    i just want to say, that this whole debate is asinine and really rates as who cares? However, your definition is narrow. As there are lots of "pro" photographers that go out and shoot wildlife and landscapes and then sell their work, full time. Your definition implies that someone has to pay a photographer to go out and shoot for them to be a pro.
    That's true. The Art photography segment can be and is a profession.

    I was confining it to the commercial pursuits being discussed, but you are right it can be more than that. I should have said a great part of pro "purpose" is to sell the work being done.

    However, calling the whole discussion asinine is a bit over the top for this friendly site …
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    To be fair, perhaps the comment was also a refection of how off topic this thread has become.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    To be fair, perhaps the comment was also a refection of how off topic this thread has become.
    Perhaps but still a bit shrill for this site....


    It is a bit surprising how passionate we can be about vaporware...
    Not even released ... no beta pics and it is a life changer. I have seen
    the Phase 250/H 50C and they are meah, ok at best. So someone throws out a big sensor at a price that still stretches one budget and it is amazing because it is so much less than product x. Really?

    It would behoove most of us to chill for a year or so and then look at the evidence...unless you have money that needs to be allocated in a separation or divorce proceeding.....more bandwidth has been spread with this discussion of hopes/dreams/desires than any effort to share recent work/cognitive reality/edifying process....

    GETDPI has a core that is knowledgeable professional and collegial ... nice to affirm those qualities as we learn just how amazing or lame the new new thing will be.

    END OF RANT > back to the circus.


    Bob
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    No, not "just." And for certain type of photography there are legitimate technical considerations. But when you line up a bunch of cameras that are essentially the same, what is the final arbiter of the purchase? And if GetDPI is any indication, when a new camera comes out followed by a huge numbers of pre-orders, I think drool is a bigger motivator than hunger. Now, if someone had a great H system and it was performing all the tasks it needed to, what is the motivation, at least in part, for a Leica S?

    Don't get me wrong, I think this type of superficiality is really important. I can see why you would want to buy an S. And I did qualify that it had to work well for the photographer and realize a certain quality/look in the images. But the reason Pentax is not the death of the DF nor H is not on the spec sheet, is because of the coolness factor--those intangible qualities that drive our choices.

    I don't mind admitting my superficiality. I loved shooting square. I had a perfectly adequate square camera. But that did not mean my eyes did not wander. And then one day the "perfect" square camera came out. I used it as my primary camera for over a decade. Made great work. It never let me down. But if I were rationally buying a 6x6 system, I would never have bought a Mamiya 6 as there are "better" systems/cameras out there for 6x6. Now, I could come up with all kinds of reasons why 6x6, why a rangefinder, why leaf shutters--you hear these reasons all the time. But none of that actually means I could not have done the same work with a different camera, a more practical camera. The Mamiya 6 just caught my fancy, my imagination. It was and is the bee's knees and it felt so great shooting it.

    Marc, you may be impervious to these intangibles, I don't know. Most of my photographer friends and the folks here at GetDPI seems to be in love, or at least like, the equipment they shoot, even if they need certain professional or technical considerations. Many will accept the limitations of their choice to work with this equipment--Alpa TC, for example. If desire/coolness is not driving the choice, then what is?

    I have found the only time folks are practical is when they are buying garbage bags...
    I took your "cool" as an absolute … meaning it's the prime reason, or follow the pack because because everyone else thinks it is cool.

    Per your example, my decision to move to the S system was actually rooted in practical considerations first, cool factor second.

    I had held out with Hasselblad in hopes that they would produce a dual shutter camera rather than one restricted only to leaf shutter to max 1/800 (a hope I had mention on this forum many times). The S solved that problem, and I would NOT have considered the S had it been just a focal plane camera no matter now cool I may have thought it to be. If not for the S, I probably would have moved to Phase One, but only if they had upgraded their camera by then.

    However, Leica was slow getting the CS lens versions out the door, so I kept my Hasselblad H until I had the Leica CS versions in the bag. In the middle of this process, Leica made it a bit easier by producing a H to S adapter which sped up the whole switch over.

    Many think the Leica M(240) is the coolest M ever, and in many respects it is, but I passed on it because I do not like the images it produces.

    That said, some are in love with technology, others with design … or both. We are visual animals and that weighs in when choosing between multiple things that (hopefully) first meet the needs of the photographer.

    - Marc
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    I guess this is true unless:

    • Comparison is made with a high en back having 80 or so MP
    • A removable back is needed that can be used on a technical camera

    Best regards
    Erik
    Or if one needs leaf shutter ability across the whole lens line up.

    - Marc

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ............. The 35mm folks looking to jump in may see the Pentax as a very good enter point over there DSLR system and will stretch the budget some and also not lose what there 35mm can do feature wise. ...........


    Guy:

    You seem to understand the Pentax market strategy. From Pentax 645Z special page:
    "Specifically, we see the PENTAX 645Z as a competitor to 35mm full frame cameras rather than just the medium format cameras offered by other companies"


    Full page. Same link posted above (which has to do with the 645Z): PENTAX 645Z - Medium Format Digital Camera | RICOH IMAGING
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    To be fair, perhaps the comment was also a refection of how off topic this thread has become.
    I agree, not only off-topic , but somewhat confrontational; more characteristic of some other photo sites on the web.

    Tom
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    Smile Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    That's true. The Art photography segment can be and is a profession.

    I was confining it to the commercial pursuits being discussed, but you are right it can be more than that. I should have said a great part of pro "purpose" is to sell the work being done.

    However, calling the whole discussion asinine is a bit over the top for this friendly site …
    ?

    If only Billy had used a smily emoticon

    tsjanik-

    Oddly, at the film forums there's hardly any bickering...or ego's.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by wryphotography View Post
    i just want to say, that this whole debate is asinine and really rates as who cares? However, your definition is narrow. As there are lots of "pro" photographers that go out and shoot wildlife and landscapes and then sell their work, full time. Your definition implies that someone has to pay a photographer to go out and shoot for them to be a pro.
    Introducing the word "asinine" is quite harsh and uncalled for.
    If you feel the discussion has gone to areas that do not interest you, or even that you think are pointless, perhaps the best reaction is to do nothing. Going off topic is not illegal or immoral.

    I would venture that the pro's that go out there looking for the striking picture and then sell it somehow, are not the majority of pros, or anywhere near that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You don't think photography is cool?
    "Cool" is a confusing word for me, as I would think 99% of humans would think none of this is cool. I think the operative word is "love" - do you love your equipment? And is that the reason you buy it or that you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Isn't there a difference between "pro photographers" and "pro gear?"
    It is possible to mark the line between pro and hobbyist photographers.
    I don't think "pro gear" exists as such - there is high end gear which can be used by pros or hobbyists. Attaching the word pro to gear is a marketing trick used by manufacturers to entice hobbyists.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    "Specifically, we see the PENTAX 645Z as a competitor to 35mm full frame cameras rather than just the medium format cameras offered by other companies"
    That was the entire point I was trying to make earlier:
    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    It would seem Pentax made a very nice camera.
    ...
    I think it will take a bigger chunk from Canon/Nikon than from P1/H.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    It is possible to mark the line between pro and hobbyist photographers.
    I don't think "pro gear" exists as such - there is high end gear which can be used by pros or hobbyists. Attaching the word pro to gear is a marketing trick used by manufacturers to entice hobbyists.
    We often see rather terrible "pro" photographers that somehow manage to sell stuff too, I think the word pro should only refer to a high technical and practical skill level, and the ability to adapt under time/pressure (not an armchair expert).

    There really is no difference between pro or hobby gear, just the high-end, low-end and a bunch in between. However, high-end gear does tend to cater to the criteria of people who use cameras as a regular daily working tools, like tougher physical construction and better QC; but they are rarely significantly better in actual imaging characteristics.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I think that this is probably a little unfair because this really requires a new camera system than the DF/DF+ with EVF. Until then, no amount of talent is going to make the DF+ show focus peaking.

    Now the Live View on the IQ250 showing focus peak - well that does sound like something that we'd hope that they could manage at some point.
    I agree with your conclusion (do I have option to disagree with you? :-)).

    However, though IQ250 has very good Live View quality, I don't recall that it displays Focus Mask while focusing like Sony A7/A7R. It only shows the mask after taking the image like older IQ series.

    So the point is, many of the features what < $2500 camera can do, $30,000+ camera can't do, though megapixels range becoming comparable (I understand overall MP alone doesn't determine ultimate image quality).

    Though Phase backs works with excellent Tech camera lenses, but that should not be an excuse not to deliver a MF DSLR better than Sony / Pentax, if I compare the price.

    Even usage of LS lenses with DF body are limited to strobe sync speed (not important for landscape photography).

    C1 is also not the end of the world... I have seen impressive museum quality work out of P45 / P65+ / IQ180 + Adobe LR and PS combo. You can guess the eminent landscape photographer & PODAS / LULA instructor I'm talking about... just don't want to mention the name here as someone might through mud on those eminent landscape photographers.

    Some of the comments I just find are more marketing oriented rather than discussing pure technical merits and demerits...

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    There only only two types of Photographer, working and non working.

    There is only two levels of camera equipment, affordable and expensive.

    Everything in the middle is so completely subjective based on so many variable. Professional has no baring on the photographers ability, likewise how much you pay for you cameras often has more to do with your social status than quality of end result.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    I think the two types of photographer are... the ones who love to take photos and don't give a crap whether they're being paid or not, and the ones who are lucky enough to get paid for doing what they love... A photographers ambition is all the "purpose" they need.

    The Pentax 645Z-

    Now I get the distraction by some in this thread and the release of the Pentax 645z.

    As it turns out the new weather resistant Pentax 645z has the same sensor (50+mp) as the Phase One IQ 250 and the H5D 50-C. It shoots HD video, ISO from 100 to 204,800, and with high speed sync will shoot with strobes (reduced power) up to 1/4000th sec., 4k interval movies, dual SD cards, USB 3.0 SS, rated shutter of 100,000 cycles, articulated LCD and the list goes on...
    There is no doubt, this is a MFD that has many features only found in high end 35mm dslr...and so it should!
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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Major reason many if us are looking squarely at it too.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    There are three kind of photographers in this world. There are those that can count and those that can't.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Major reason many if us are looking squarely at it too.
    I think this Pentax will be a winner but without the availability of a decent TS-E lens, (and probably never will be) I find it hard to part with my 35mm Canon system especially with the news to expect a 45mm and 90mm TS-E replacement at Photokina.

    Like was said earlier about Phase One, to me often the system is more important than the camera/chip size.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    BTW going off topic here is not a big deal the conversation was actually somewhat related and that's okay as long us was not something like rocket propulsion I think we are just fine. Also if you think something is asinine well just don't read it . Change the channel as everyone has a opinion good bad or indifferent. That's a human right

    I'm at a camera store waiting for it to open. I could very well be getting in trouble. Wife's on a plane. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    The word 'professional' is someone who does something as a profession. You can't change that definition. Regardless of skillset, know how, equipment or even experience. If you aren't making money from it you're not a professional. I think it's an important differentiation. If you aren't working in the field, under the pressure of having to make money from a certain skill set then your opinion on the profession has to be taken as anecdotal or based on theories and numbers rather than the sharing of real world experience. Not that it isn't valuable but it's far from the whole story.
    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I think this Pentax will be a winner but without the availability of a decent TS-E lens, (and probably never will be) I find it hard to part with my 35mm Canon system especially with the news to expect a 45mm and 90mm TS-E replacement at Photokina.

    Like was said earlier about Phase One, to me often the system is more important than the camera/chip size.
    Totally agree here. You buy a system been preaching that for years. One other point here do your homework and figure out those limitations and workarounds as well. Very important to have answers before you buy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Sorry folks iPhone typing is taking over on me. Pita
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Wife's on a plane. Lol
    She still has internet access and can login to check your credit card activity. I would use cash...

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sorry folks iPhone typing is taking over on me. Pita
    Glad I'm not the only one who struggles.

    It seems as I get older my iPhone increasingly refuses to work correctly.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

    For some reason I've missed this one and a bunch of others:

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I dare to say that the client that count pixels is a minority, but I'm sure they exist and obviously you meet them, so you probably need MFD then and the clients can surely pay for that cost.

    However for most it's about general printing needs, and those printing needs have not changed much since the best MF were at 22 megapixels not many years ago.
    Pixel peeping client is for sure not the majority, but for instance dealing with products for large companies, they don't want to see non MF quality, especially if they paid premium.

    Commercial today is not so much about printing, as it is about providing a file that the client feels can give him the maximum usefulness. That is why some of those clients pixel peep - to make sure they can crop and enlarge in the future even if they don't know exactly to what end right now.

    What you've suggested about using low grade glass and then Photoshop to pop the image, is IMO a big mistake. If I'm committed to actually the best quality I can provide my clients (only technical here), and my competitor is cutting corners and trying to get to a similar result at lower costs, there will be enough clients who will be able to tell the difference. This is something I can speak of from experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    As an example I know of a very successful Swedish architectural photographer that has MFD tech cam (Sinar Artec), but it sits on a shelf as the D800 with tilt-shift lenses reached the quality level needed for his professional work and he found the workflow to be more convenient, and his artistic work is mostly made on large format film rather than digital.
    That just means that guy bought the wrong camera, that didn't meet his needs.
    If the MFD stays on the shelf, it means you've made a mistake and of course you should sell it.
    I was referring to those who use it and it's right for them.


    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Many instead use MFD from personal reasons, they appreciate the quality themselves, but actually don't need it for satisfying their customers. And then there are different personalities, some want the best because they just like to use the best, and some don't want to spend more money on (any type of) gear than needed and instead get more profit. The same can be seen when it comes to picking a car for professional tasks, some pick the most cost effective alternative that does the job, others pick something extra because they know they will be driving it and like to have something extra. I would not call the more economical person the less professional one... some are just more gear junkies than others
    I don't disagree, and I never said every pro needs to use MFD.
    What I meant to say is that if you are using the system professionally and it's suitable for your needs, then it doesn't make sense for you to sell it for something lesser just for the money difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "If when you're in financial trouble you sell your MFD, I think it means you're not a pro."

    This may be a bit harsh. In this dog-eat-dog financial environment the photography landscape has changed considerably for any number of hard working pros … and it is littered with the bleached bones of those who didn't adapt.

    I have a close friend who's studio had 9 MFD stations working 24/7 on a large food account. He did it for years and dedicated a great deal of resources to that end. Recently at the corporate level they decided to pull it in-house, and gave him a week's notice. He'll likely replace part of that, and was smart enough to financially prepare for that eventuallity … but it will take time. Meanwhile, he has a crushing over-head to maintain. Reduction of that overhead is clearly the professional thing to do.
    My original hell-raising remark was in retrospect excessive and not comprehensively accurate.

    Your friend with the 9*24*7 stations is a very unusual case.
    His past is the abnormality - it doesn't make economic sense for a commercial company to pay so much. If they really do it all the time, any calculation will show tremendous savings by bringing it in house.


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If no has noticed, advertising has seriously shifted to web based presentations … how much resolution do you need for a sub-one meg., sRGB image? Count those pixels.
    A lot of the current work is for web, for sure.
    But 80mp isn't the only advantage of MFD.
    There is diffraction which is critical for products, and the glass for P1 is just miles better than Canon - in the normal to short tele range. It can be very apparent in web applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I sold all my Hasselbald gear (H4D/40 and H4D/60) and used the money to treat myself to a Lexus for my S2 to ride in
    Exactly! You sold the hardware which was not working - that makes sense.
    You don't sell the one that's working and earning.

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