Agree, we've come a long way but at the same time, some things never change or in other words....a lot is still similar to today!
Dave (D&A)
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Pentax 645Z - oh boy!
- Thread starter jagsiva
- Start date
Dave (D&A)
Ed Hurst
Well-known member
LOL! After so many dissertation length postings (I'm not referring to anyone but myself) regarding thoughts of the new 645Z and Ricoh/Pentax marketing and support of the 645 system, along comes a gentleman (Ed), a man of few but meaningful words about simply waiting to see if the new 645Z lives up to its "on paper" potential. Either Ed is very smart and pragmatic or he's simply too exhausted to type very much these days, having now been up countless of nights with his adorable lovely newborn. Then again maybe its a mixture of both. Well done Ed!
Dave (D&A)
Hello Dave
I wish I could say that the primary explanation is the former, but in fact, it's mainly the presence of my adorable, lovely newborn. I just haven't had time to devote to photography itself or discussing it of late. Amusingly, it has proven to concentrate the mind on what matters most in those spheres - I ended up saying in two lines what I would previously have said in an essay (which just goes to show I didn't have much of consequence to say!) ;-)
That said, I have enjoyed scanning everyone else's thoughtful and insightful contributions. It's clear that this camera has shaken things up before it has even been launched. Let's hope it continues to do so once it has (though my bank manager may not agree!).
All the best,
Ed
Ed, one of the most facinanting things is yet to come....the merging of two wonderful worlds. As you little one grows day by day, the desire to photograph every moment also grows...so that your love of photography combines with the love of capturing every wonderful minute with your new little one. It truly doesn't get better than that! Of course when they ask to borrow the keys to the car...that will become a different story....LOL!
Dave (D&A)
Dave (D&A)
subrata1965
Member
Isn't it two way traffic? Don't we have enough examples where people moved from Phase to D800 as their main camera as well?
subrata1965
Member
Despite having so talented engineers (hardware & software) Phase can't deliver focus peaking which Sony & Pentax can do?
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
I think that this is probably a little unfair because this really requires a new camera system than the DF/DF+ with EVF. Until then, no amount of talent is going to make the DF+ show focus peaking.
Now the Live View on the IQ250 showing focus peak - well that does sound like something that we'd hope that they could manage at some point.
You are probably right in this observation. Not only moved from MFD to cameras like the D800 and A7R, but there are probably also a number of folks that never "moved up" to MFD because of higher resolution 35mm cameras.
We cannot forget that the lingering effects of a struggling economy bring a certain level of "reality" to all this. Pro or advanced amateur, money talks. Paying 10X more for a Phase One is a sobering consideration to say the least. Even 3X more for the Pentax (plus new lenses) is no small matter for many these days.
Conditions in life have a nasty habit of changing. Based on my anecdotal experiences with friends, colleagues, and some folks here on GetDpi (including myself), when life butts in financially, the first thing to photographically go is the MFD system.
To me this says it is a luxury for some (maybe even many), not a dire necessity.
Or the "necessity" has changed.
- Marc
I do sometimes wonder if the luxury market is indeed the majority target audience for MFD manufacturers today (PODAS events, Lunar, Limited edition models)?
Value has very little bearing in this market but an endorsement goes a long way.
robertwright
New member
It is unfortunate that the whole economy has moved in this direction- but that is a subject for another forum- I do see and feel that photographic community which used to be a solidly middle to upper middle class group who could afford very good medium format film gear and Lf film gear which lasted for decades has now shrunk and is struggling under a flat middle economy.
While there are opportunities to take vendors in-house (digital printing, bookmaking retouching etc) enabled by digital, the big loss has been in the affordability of mf gear.
The mf manufacturers are not dummies and have their market research in hand, and just like cars, watches, etc, other luxury goods, the support is growing at the top not in the middle.
Whether or not that continues is another question. If Phase was publicly traded I would not own their stock nor Hassy etc. no matter that I like their products.
So even tho we have a kind of moore's law equation going on with increased performance each generation there is not much trickle down because the mf companies would risk profits to sell at lower margins. Kind of a monkey/banana/bars problem. Dropping the product price by half would not I don't believe grow the market that much considering that prosumers might only top out at full frame dslr prices, and even that market is shrinking.
So they probably are doing the right thing by keeping margins healthy and banking the cash for stormy weather.
While there are opportunities to take vendors in-house (digital printing, bookmaking retouching etc) enabled by digital, the big loss has been in the affordability of mf gear.
The mf manufacturers are not dummies and have their market research in hand, and just like cars, watches, etc, other luxury goods, the support is growing at the top not in the middle.
Whether or not that continues is another question. If Phase was publicly traded I would not own their stock
nor Hassy etc. no matter that I like their products.So even tho we have a kind of moore's law equation going on with increased performance each generation there is not much trickle down because the mf companies would risk profits to sell at lower margins. Kind of a monkey/banana/bars problem. Dropping the product price by half would not I don't believe grow the market that much considering that prosumers might only top out at full frame dslr prices, and even that market is shrinking.
So they probably are doing the right thing by keeping margins healthy and banking the cash for stormy weather.
I think there's more money to earn with volume. Mf will be a niche due to the very high quality possible with smaller formats, but I think the niche is kept unnecessary small due to the current business model. I also think Phase One and Hasselblad are too small to be able to change. They will succeed in price insensitive markets or go under.
Anyway the success or failure of the new Pentax will tell us if more affordable MF works or not.
Anyway the success or failure of the new Pentax will tell us if more affordable MF works or not.
If when you're in financial trouble you sell your MFD, I think it means you're not a pro.
If this is the system that makes you money, it doesn't make a lot of sense to sell it. I don't think moving to 35mm will grow anyone business.
It would seem Pentax made a very nice camera.
But is there a complete super high quality eco system?
From what I've read (yes, now please tell me that only those who've had the thing in their hands are allowed to comment on it) - from what I've read I understand most of the glass is not up to par with P1/H. Does Pentax have the resources or the inclination to complete the system with competitive quality glass? Time will tell. I think they will not, I think they plan to be above 35mm and below P1/H.
Very very good glass seems like a requirement for someone making an investment in a pro system.
I believe we will see more people dipping their feet in the MFD pool and churning 50mp images for a Canon like investment. But as long as the glass is behind, I don't think it will affect the high end business very much.
The galavanting billionaire enjoys his gold-plated ALPA.
The sweaty pro needs his images to pop.
I think it will take a bigger chunk from Canon/Nikon than from P1/H.
If this is the system that makes you money, it doesn't make a lot of sense to sell it. I don't think moving to 35mm will grow anyone business.
It would seem Pentax made a very nice camera.
But is there a complete super high quality eco system?
From what I've read (yes, now please tell me that only those who've had the thing in their hands are allowed to comment on it) - from what I've read I understand most of the glass is not up to par with P1/H. Does Pentax have the resources or the inclination to complete the system with competitive quality glass? Time will tell. I think they will not, I think they plan to be above 35mm and below P1/H.
Very very good glass seems like a requirement for someone making an investment in a pro system.
I believe we will see more people dipping their feet in the MFD pool and churning 50mp images for a Canon like investment. But as long as the glass is behind, I don't think it will affect the high end business very much.
The galavanting billionaire enjoys his gold-plated ALPA.
The sweaty pro needs his images to pop.
I think it will take a bigger chunk from Canon/Nikon than from P1/H.
A camera doesn't make you money, your images do.
You don't necessarily need 80 megapixels to make strong images, and if you don't reducing equipment cost can be a smart move.
If you need your images to pop - learn post-processing.
The camera is the least important component for successful image making, unless your genre is very special, like art reproduction.
You don't necessarily need 80 megapixels to make strong images, and if you don't reducing equipment cost can be a smart move.
If you need your images to pop - learn post-processing.
The camera is the least important component for successful image making, unless your genre is very special, like art reproduction.
Torger, if my memory serves me correctly, you are an amateur.
Do you make most of your living from photography?
What makes you think the "strong image" is what pays the bills?
A camera system is a work tool, or a fun tool, depending on who buys it.
If you give your clients photoshopped files from inferior glass - do you really think they will come back and send their friends?
Do you make most of your living from photography?
What makes you think the "strong image" is what pays the bills?
A camera system is a work tool, or a fun tool, depending on who buys it.
If you give your clients photoshopped files from inferior glass - do you really think they will come back and send their friends?
Oh, I don't think it'll fail. It is too good for that price. Depends on what Pentax expects of it. I know Leica had smaller expectations for the S system at first, but pretty quickly exceeded that.
I'm not sure volume is the way to salvation for photographers these days. I think maybe diversification is.
More and more volume production situations are being brought in-house by manufacturers, and now even smaller to mid-size ad agencies are looking at cataloging type work as a potential profit center because they are also being squeezed. Trust me, they do not pay their photography staff very much considering what it'd cost to use a more experienced shooter.
In past, a studio could pay the over-head with the production work and allow solicitation of higher end jobs with facilities to service that type of client.
Personally, I never shelled out very much capital for MFD equipment. When commercial work transitioned from film to digital, it was common to charge a digital capture fee as a line expense for each job. Usually the equivalent of renting the gear needed. This was actually a bargain for clients because the cost of film, processing and scanning could be $40 to $70 a shot … a 100 piece catalog could easily run them $5,000+.
On average, those fees paid for my MFD kit in about 2 years (sooner for others), then I'd upgrade, and apply the fees against that.
That business model has all but disappeared as photographers cut each other's throat to get work. Only the top shooters get away with it now or bake it into their usage fees, and often actually do just rent the gear.
It's tough out there.
- Marc
Kolor-Pikker
Member
The Leica effect - It doesn't even really need to function if it's built well enough.
Me being an amateur does not mean that I lack the ability to observe, and I both observe and discuss with professional photgraphers. I dare to say that the client that count pixels is a minority, but I'm sure they exist and obviously you meet them, so you probably need MFD then and the clients can surely pay for that cost.
However for most it's about general printing needs, and those printing needs have not changed much since the best MF were at 22 megapixels not many years ago.
As an example I know of a very successful Swedish architectural photographer that has MFD tech cam (Sinar Artec), but it sits on a shelf as the D800 with tilt-shift lenses reached the quality level needed for his professional work and he found the workflow to be more convenient, and his artistic work is mostly made on large format film rather than digital.
Many instead use MFD from personal reasons, they appreciate the quality themselves, but actually don't need it for satisfying their customers. And then there are different personalities, some want the best because they just like to use the best, and some don't want to spend more money on (any type of) gear than needed and instead get more profit. The same can be seen when it comes to picking a car for professional tasks, some pick the most cost effective alternative that does the job, others pick something extra because they know they will be driving it and like to have something extra. I would not call the more economical person the less professional one... some are just more gear junkies than others
There's also the special feature needs though, if you're used to high sync speed and use it all the time, you probably want to keep that, and that you happen to have 80 megapixels is because you followed the upgrade path for the system, not that you actually need that level of sharpness. Resolution aside, there are still aspects of the Hassy and 645DF systems that this Pentax can't do.
However for most it's about general printing needs, and those printing needs have not changed much since the best MF were at 22 megapixels not many years ago.
As an example I know of a very successful Swedish architectural photographer that has MFD tech cam (Sinar Artec), but it sits on a shelf as the D800 with tilt-shift lenses reached the quality level needed for his professional work and he found the workflow to be more convenient, and his artistic work is mostly made on large format film rather than digital.
Many instead use MFD from personal reasons, they appreciate the quality themselves, but actually don't need it for satisfying their customers. And then there are different personalities, some want the best because they just like to use the best, and some don't want to spend more money on (any type of) gear than needed and instead get more profit. The same can be seen when it comes to picking a car for professional tasks, some pick the most cost effective alternative that does the job, others pick something extra because they know they will be driving it and like to have something extra. I would not call the more economical person the less professional one... some are just more gear junkies than others
There's also the special feature needs though, if you're used to high sync speed and use it all the time, you probably want to keep that, and that you happen to have 80 megapixels is because you followed the upgrade path for the system, not that you actually need that level of sharpness. Resolution aside, there are still aspects of the Hassy and 645DF systems that this Pentax can't do.
NEVER had a problem with my S .... am on my second body. The M digitals were a bit rough ... not so with the S.
And with service plan that supplies a loaner overnight in most of the Western world if I did it would be covered.
And while it may not be 80 MP it meets and exceeds most needs....
Just wish they made a removable back in addition to the unibody.
JMHO.
Bob
And with service plan that supplies a loaner overnight in most of the Western world if I did it would be covered.
And while it may not be 80 MP it meets and exceeds most needs....
Just wish they made a removable back in addition to the unibody.
JMHO.
Bob