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Printing Medium format images

torger

Active member
There are many types of machines, and possibly not all are as good. I'm however quite sure more can go wrong with the ink jets due to all sorts of configurations they can have. I can only say that I've had much more luck with C prints than with inkjet prints when ordering from a lab. C prints seems to be on the way out though, Durst Lambda which is the make I'm using is not making any new machines, and I'm not sure how many other active manufacturers there are.

Concerning following through a print from start to finish I agree it's satisfying, I don't really see that the way of letting someone else load the printer, clean and calibrate the print heads and press the print button is less satisfying though. When you send to a lab it doesn't mean that you don't do test prints and tune the result to fit the medium. What I do lack from inkjet is the ability to choose various papers though, on the other hand C prints have a photographic look that I have not seen any inkjet produce. Instead of worrying about I can't print on canvas I have spent some extra time making the best out of the look C prints provide.

If I did have my own inkjet printer I'd probably get nerdy with that and print on different papers depending on subject etc, but actually to be honest I think there is tendency in the photographic community to go overkill on printing, creating more angst than joy. If one doesn't see economy in having an own printer I don't think it's necessary to make high end results, you need to know what medium you work with though and cooperate with it.

From what I've seen, these "wet lab" machines do require a bit more than a modicum of maintenance
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I am a medium format digital photographer, and I also run a printing service. This means I am a bit biased in favor of letting someone who does it full time deal with it, but as I see it you only have two good options: 1. Invest the large sum of time and money into getting a state of the art inkjet setup and learning how to use it to the best effectiveness. Or, 2. Find a good printer and build up a relationship with them. They will get to know you and your work and learn how to meet your needs.

Getting really good prints is much more than just the technology involved...it is really more about experience and communication. As I said, I am biased, but I think a good printer (person, not machine) is a great asset because they are used to printing for all different clients and are working with the machines day in and day out. They will likely have a much broader experience in the possibilities of the different machines and media than it is generally possible to gain just printing for oneself. It is certainly possible to print exceptional work oneself too, but it requires a lot of time to build up the experience, and quite a substantial investment in equipment and materials. Additionally, these printers are mostly made to be run...if you are not using them a lot, they tend to be quite finicky (clogs etc) and they certainly take up a lot of space! If you make a ton of prints and sell them, then it may be the best route for you, but if you are doing it as a hobby or selling occasionally, it is probably more in your interest to let a professional deal with it. The prices for good large prints can be quite high, but you can still get a lot of them for the price of a wide format printer and all the maintenance costs and materials needed.
 

flyrcairplanes

New member
So those of you who are in the U.S. who do not print your own images who do you use and what questions do you ask to make sure you are getting the best quality images?
 

torger

Active member
This means I am a bit biased in favor of letting someone who does it full time deal with it
Just as I'm sure your printing service is excellent and I'd love to use it, I'm sure that it's really hard to find one that is as obsessive with image quality as the typical MF photographer is. Most printing services just print.

The thing is that most printing services rarely get the type of customer that really is obsessive with image quality. By asking some basic questions you learn from any fine art printing book one usually discover that they are not really familiar with fine art printing challenges.

Although I do think there is a good inkjet printing service somewhere in Sweden I've given up on finding it, and instead I go for the (in my experience) predictable C print. When I've asked others I've discovered that many are very satisfied with serivces I've been unsatisfied with so I realize that it's a bit about me too, being a very demanding customer.

I use a local service for framing though. They're supposed to be the best around, and they're nice to work with, but still I've needed to get back to get things fixed afterwards,
slightly misaligned prints, dust behind the glass and things like that, and in the communication with them it's quite clear that my obsessive desire for the best quality is not really what they are used to. Still I think they make a better job than I would do in my dusty home with my not-so-skilled hands.

Anyway, finding a printing service and a framing service that is aware and makes a job with the same considerations you see in a fine art printing book is in my experience very very difficult. It's almost as difficult as finding a MF dealer around here that has used a technical camera ;)
 
M

mjr

Guest
Torger

Where in Sweden are you? I'm in the North and I'm obsessed with print quality, I have recently bought a IPF6400 and it is incredible, I used a Z3100 for a couple of years and getting back in to printing is fantastic. You'd be welcome to come with some images and we can see what is possible, quality of final output is not an issue as far as I'm concerned. I'd be happy to print for you if we can produce what you want, you'd be using someone who wants the best possible from his own images.

Mat
 

torger

Active member
Thanks for the offer very tempting. I'm in Luleå, so I think I'm quite close to you. I'm not printing much for the time being though, but I'll keep it in mind! I'm getting more and more images I think is worth printing :)
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
So those of you who are in the U.S. who do not print your own images who do you use and what questions do you ask to make sure you are getting the best quality images?
Before I had my own larger format printers (24 & 44in Z3200 & 3880), I used to take advantage of Costco's printing services and the profiles created for their Noritsu & Fuji Frontier printers by Dry Creek Photo. The prices for reasonable sized prints was such that it was affordable to use 12x18's for proofing and tweaking (via soft proofing) so that the resulting Fuji Crystal Archive prints were truly very acceptable to me, although it would be highly dependent upon the Costco store maintenance and profile age/accuracy. To be honest, it was cheaper than printing at home even on an Epson 2200 or 3800. I haven't tried their larger print sizes that are available from the large Epsons.

I haven't used them for quite a while but generally if you followed the comprehensive instructions on the Dry Creek Photo web site then I never had any issues with dealing with the Costco folks.

As mentioned by others though, nothing quite matches the immediacy of doing your own printing and reviewing the results. Personally, I can't say that I find it cost effective but I do prefer the control. I also found the investment in a GTI proofing PDV stand worthwhile, especially for testing smaller prints alongside my monitor. (Easy to pick up cheap used too).
 
M

mjr

Guest
Lulea is pretty close to me, good to know there are photographers in the area, we should meet up! I don't have my Alpa and P1 anymore but I'm still really in to MF.

Print offer is genuine, I'm printing for myself and would be happy to print for one or two others based on it being a very personal experience based on getting the most from the print.

Mat
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
I'm gonna check out "The Digital Print" as well, thanks for the advice. I would like to get a large format printer and do my own printing in the future but I can't justify the cost at all at the moment. I have also realized that printing itself is an art form and I just don't have the time to devote to it at the moment. I have been outsourcing to labs that print on Fuji Crystal Archive paper and while they don't always match what I see on my screens (Apple 27" Thunderbolt display and NEC PA272), they look good enough. I've developed a good relationship with a local lab in Atlanta (PPR Prints) for my own prints and just got some prints back from Aspen Creek Photo that i like that seem to match what I get from PPR. For some reason I like the prints on the Fuji paper more than other papers that other labs use (Kodak, etc). Big fan of Fuji Pearl as well...those prints always get a "woah" from potential buyers. If you decide to outsource, there are a lot of labs that will print proofs for you for free or a reduced cost for your first order, so you can always send out a bunch and compare the results.
 
Just wondering where people send their medium format images for printing. Am I wrong in assuming that if I get a wider color gamut printer etc I will get to see the full advantages of medium format in print? Thanks
Though today's print technology doesn't offer entire gamut available in your MF file, the question is what is maximum gamut you can print today.

Here is an article you may be interested in:

Joseph Holmes - News: Epson 11880

If one can't afford or doesn't have a space for big printer or print volume doesn't justify purchase of big printer, out sourcing is only option.

Print Master Charles Cramer have acknowledged excellent profile / print quality of Costco. However, paper choices will be limited. Also, prefect print for a given image doesn't happen in one go. Hence making a trip to Costco for every round of printing is time consuming.

Many Pros gets their print done from West Coast Imaging... they can send you proof before final large size printing and you can discuss your taste / requirements with a live person.

Another similar service provider is Picture Elements.

Did I mention about our forum member Ken Doo [kdphotography]? This guy is very passionate about fine art print making and will take care of your MF printing needs. Try him out or join us for "CI in Carmel" in 2015 (if it happens in Carmel)!

Subrata
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Funny I have my Epson 7900 printer on the buy and sell and not even a low ball offer. So much for printing yourself. I don't understand it at all. Not even a PM on it.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Guy, in my experience when I picked up my 24 & 44in HPs was that large printers are tough to sell used unless you happen to be local and have a suitable transportation option. Shipping is a killer. I was lucky enough to pick up my printers from folks either near my office in San Francisco so that I could fill an SUV and drive it home, or in Seattle which was 'only' a 300 mile round trip and the 44in printer just fitted in my LR. Both sellers needed the space for a new printer (or spouse had dictated that the printer wasn't acceptable in the dining room - yup, really ??) and so were very keen to see them go.

Heck, I'd buy the 7900 myself if it were local or easy to ship. :thumbup:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I did put in I will drive it 300 miles. How far is Vancouver. LOL


I smell a ROAD TRIP coming. LOL



Alright Im out of here going to go shoot a gig. This is unique BLUE Palm trees. Shooting two night scenes today and a field of them in the morning for a client. Now I'm downright excited about this. Should be fun
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Guy, We ended up donating our older 9800 to a local school last year when we upgraded to the 9900. The fire dept showed to pick it up for the school.
 

flyrcairplanes

New member
Though today's print technology doesn't offer entire gamut available in your MF file, the question is what is maximum gamut you can print today.

Here is an article you may be interested in:

Joseph Holmes - News: Epson 11880

If one can't afford or doesn't have a space for big printer or print volume doesn't justify purchase of big printer, out sourcing is only option.

Print Master Charles Crammer have acknowledged excellent profile / print quality of Costco. However, paper choices will be limited. Also, prefect print for a given image doesn't happen in one go. Hence making a trip to Costco for every round of printing is time consuming.

Many Pros gets their print done from West Coast Imaging... they can send you proof before final large size printing and you can discuss your taste / requirements with a live person.

Another similar service provider is Picture Elements.

Did I mention about our forum member Ken Doo [kdphotography]? This guy is very passionate about fine art print making and will take care of your MF printing needs. Try him out or join us for "CI in Carmel" in 2015 (if it happens in Carmel)!

Subrata
Thanks for the different names. I am getting through my copy of the digital print and learning a lot. I have been to Ken's site and I didn't notice that he did that type of work. I have used costco in the past for my dslr work and like the results but I have always wondered what one of my medium format shots printed by a professional would look like. That is good to know that Ken does this. I didn't get from his website that he does any "non commercial" work.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
What's sad to me is how many people now feel a digital image, displayed on the web is a photograph when in actuality it's anything but. I have been a photographer for over 35 years, and consider myself one of the early adopters to digital, since before 2000, I was scanning slides as I grew tired of the Cibrachrome process. To me the printed photograph, is the final product on paper, canvas, metal etc. I know, I am old school.

I also believe that a big part of the process of learning photography, is the creation of a print. Before the web, if you did not have a print, you did not have a photograph. The learning curve of taking what you have on the screen and making a print from it that resembles what looks like on the screen is 1/2 of the modern digital photographic process. Before digital, and in film days, this was done in the darkroom, either under red lights and B&W or total darkness and color process. The later is what drove me to digital.

The book "The Digital Print" has been referenced many times, and I agree it's a good place to start.

Some may feel that the "expense" of an inkjet is too much, the paper, the ink etc. To me the cost is part of getting to the final product, a print. In older days, it was the cost of chemicals, trays, paper, an enlarger, or scanner or both.

Starting off with a 7900 @ 24 inches or 9900 @44 inches may be a lot more than most need, where as the cost of a 4900 may be just what is needed as the 17" limit can get a lot printing done. Canon also has many great printers in the 17" lineup or close to it.

Everyone has their own opinion on this, but back to the OP, I hope you do take the time to learn the printing process for your current work. By either taking a class or two or by purchase of a printer and learning as you go. I feel you will get a much more positive feeling by seeing a final "paper" print and the fact that you took that image from either a scanned film negative or slide, or a digital capture to paper.

Paul
 
I did put in I will drive it 300 miles. How far is Vancouver. LOL


I smell a ROAD TRIP coming. LOL



Alright Im out of here going to go shoot a gig. This is unique BLUE Palm trees. Shooting two night scenes today and a field of them in the morning for a client. Now I'm downright excited about this. Should be fun
I know a local MF photographer (who is also a member of GetDPI) wanted to get rid of his Epson 7800 or similar size for FREE with lots of inks left, but there was no taker. I didn't know when he made the offer. Since there was no taker, he again got fired up and started making large prints. :)
 
What's sad to me is how many people now feel a digital image, displayed on the web is a photograph when in actuality it's anything but. I have been a photographer for over 35 years, and consider myself one of the early adopters to digital, since before 2000, I was scanning slides as I grew tired of the Cibrachrome process. To me the printed photograph, is the final product on paper, canvas, metal etc. I know, I am old school.

I also believe that a big part of the process of learning photography, is the creation of a print. Before the web, if you did not have a print, you did not have a photograph. The learning curve of taking what you have on the screen and making a print from it that resembles what looks like on the screen is 1/2 of the modern digital photographic process. Before digital, and in film days, this was done in the darkroom, either under red lights and B&W or total darkness and color process. The later is what drove me to digital.

The book "The Digital Print" has been referenced many times, and I agree it's a good place to start.

Some may feel that the "expense" of an inkjet is too much, the paper, the ink etc. To me the cost is part of getting to the final product, a print. In older days, it was the cost of chemicals, trays, paper, an enlarger, or scanner or both.

Starting off with a 7900 @ 24 inches or 9900 @44 inches may be a lot more than most need, where as the cost of a 4900 may be just what is needed as the 17" limit can get a lot printing done. Canon also has many great printers in the 17" lineup or close to it.

Everyone has their own opinion on this, but back to the OP, I hope you do take the time to learn the printing process for your current work. By either taking a class or two or by purchase of a printer and learning as you go. I feel you will get a much more positive feeling by seeing a final "paper" print and the fact that you took that image from either a scanned film negative or slide, or a digital capture to paper.

Paul
That's what I do. I have Epson 4800 which can print up to 17".

If I need bigger print, I will go to Ken Doo.

Taking an intensive fine art print making class from Charles Cramer was pleasure. I'm glad he is local. I'm looking forward for his alumni print making class next year!
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
+1 on Charles Cramer's printing workshops. Very, very worthwhile. The photoshop finishing techniques and print development approach is excellent. I really learnt a lot and have been contemplating returning for one of his alumni workshop too.

Highly recommended - if you can get in that is. Small group sessions only so that he and Rex Naden can work closely with you to help learn how to tune your images to prints. :thumbs:
 
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