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Thread: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

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    Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Sincerely hope this is not true (sometimes rumors are not!)
    MFD needs multiple players, specially those with a rich history
    Is Hasselblad in financial trouble? | Photo Rumors

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Given the Lunar and Stellar, Hasselblad going into new ownership might not be that bad.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    wait till Sony buys them.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by hsteeves View Post
    wait till Sony buys them.
    why not Fuji ?
    the current Hasselblad (camera and lenses) are essentially Fuji (as far as i know).

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by kapil Syal View Post
    why not Fuji ?
    the current Hasselblad (camera and lenses) are essentially Fuji (as far as i know).
    Haha! Are people still banging on about that untruth?

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    A real camera maker instead of some investors, please!
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    I really enjoy using my H5D50, but with the new Sony chip in all the medium format cameras(except Lecia); is there really a need for multiple medium format manufacturers (Brands)?
    Unless Hasselblad unleashes a technical break through of some sort, does the company have any real value for a new buyer?
    Maybe the the most important question is can Hasselblad survive selling cameras at $15,000 or less?
    Stanley

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    When we see the Hasselblad story in the NY Times or WSJ then I'll pay attention.

    VC firms are interested in making profits, 3x 5x 7x times investment. That is the reason for the existence of any VC firm.
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgio View Post
    VC firms are interested in making profits, 3x 5x 7x times investment. That is the reason for the existence of any VC firm.
    Amen to that.

    Unfortunately, Hasselblad has made a string of strategic mistakes the last 15 years:

    - Developing and launching the H-series which wasn't very attractive to the amateur enthusiasts that made up a large part of Hasselblad's customer base.
    - Making the H-series a closed system, losing many of their professional customers.
    - When they finally launched the H4X, it was only available as a trade-in for H1 and H2 owners. Although the market may not have been very large for that camera, the whole concept of making a camera that isn't really available comes forward as a rather hostile way of relating to prospective customers.
    - Spending an unknown number of millions (pick your currency) on the Lunar project, a project that most photographers, market analysts etc. could have told them that was doomed to fail.
    - Discontinuing the V-series instead of developing it.

    Hasselblad has been through times of crisis before and they have changed owners before as well. I really hope that they will survive, but they have made it difficult for themselves. The only reasonably "safe harbours" for them would be something like Fuji. Sony is a company that is far too pragmatic when it comes to buying, selling and closing down. The fact that Sony makes their latest sensor doesn't change that. Sony makes sensors for anybody. The cooperation with Fuji is much more unique, from the X-Pan to the lenses for the H-series. A European investor with a long term plan and modest needs for ROI would be another option, but there aren't many of those around.
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Hi,

    I am absolutely certain Hasselblad could survive with a good owner, being part of a larger company.

    If Pentax can build the 645Z for 8K and survive so could Hasselblad building a somewhat more expensive camera. But they need to share technology with a larger firm.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    I really enjoy using my H5D50, but with the new Sony chip in all the medium format cameras(except Lecia); is there really a need for multiple medium format manufacturers (Brands)?
    Unless Hasselblad unleashes a technical break through of some sort, does the company have any real value for a new buyer?
    Maybe the the most important question is can Hasselblad survive selling cameras at $15,000 or less?
    Stanley
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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Hi,

    Fuji buying Hasselblad makes only sense if they are seriously interested in MFD. But absolutely, the cooperation worked well for both companies.

    The reason I feel Sony may be interested is that I would think it is possible they would make a back for their sensors and needed a body to put it on.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Amen to that.

    The only reasonably "safe harbours" for them would be something like Fuji. Sony is a company that is far too pragmatic when it comes to buying, selling and closing down. The fact that Sony makes their latest sensor doesn't change that. Sony makes sensors for anybody. The cooperation with Fuji is much more unique, from the X-Pan to the lenses for the H-series. A European investor with a long term plan and modest needs for ROI would be another option, but there aren't many of those around.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Hasselblad in financial trouble? Oh what a surprising rumour

    I think that's kind of what all of us have been thinking the last few years. They've not exactly been focused on long-term development.

    As others have said, it could be a good thing if Hasselblad gets sold, it all depends on what the new buyer will do. If the new buyer has both financial muscle and long term thinking in their mindset (ie not just some venture captial firm) it could be a very good thing.

    I think the opportunities are there, but maybe not so much with the old medium format business model (ie extremely high prices and narrow high overhead distribution channels). Imagine Hasselblad doing something like Pentax, ie much lower prices, be attractive to lots of advanced amateurs, I think that could be a financially more successful model, but it requires both financial muscle and long term thinking to reach that position. It will cost lots of money and require guts to go there.

    Maybe Fuji could provide that?

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by kapil Syal View Post
    why not Fuji ?
    the current Hasselblad (camera and lenses) are essentially Fuji (as far as i know).
    By that same metric, one could say that Zeiss is essentially a luxury brand name for Cosina and Sony lenses, since the only Zeiss lenses actually made in Germany comprise something like 0.001% of their business.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    As a long time Hasselblad user, I find it sad to see such a rumor … again.

    Personally, I don't subscribe to the usual "reasons why" as discussed here. I believe the root of their problem is/was poor marketing decisions that directly affected the product, and even worst communication with their targeted consumers regarding the good decisions they did make.

    There is an adage in marketing that says "Perception Is Reality". Hasselblad violated that on a regular basis. Whether out of arrogance or ignorance is irrelevant, only the long term net results count.

    Hasselblad launched the H camera with perceptual mistake #1. They severed their long time relationship with Zeiss to make lenses for the H system. It doesn't matter what the reality of the H lenses may be, how good they actually are, or who designed them and who made them, it created a perceptual inequity that persists to this day.

    They insisted on making the H camera "Plain Jane" grey, ignoring the over-whelming majority preference for a black camera.

    Hasselblad ignored the fact that their backs could not be used on a technical field camera, effectively handing all that potential pro and growing enthusiasts business to their competitors. The recent clip-on battery for the H5 is too little, too late.

    Hasselblad and Imacon became one, but the camera seemed to dominate in innovations, while the DBs consistently trailed Phase One DB innovations. A clear case of the tail wagging the dog. It is medium format DIGITAL, not MEDIUM FORMAT digital. Their camera was already ahead of the game, so they should have concentrated on the DBs.

    Instead of using their lead in camera development (perceptual or real), they closed the H system to use of other DBs. In reality, there were some good reasons to unify all components … but it defied "Perception is Reality", and Hasselblad never clearly communicated the technical reasons why they closed the system, so the perception was universally negative with no mitigating argument for doing what they did. The H4X marketing was yet another "mean move" that pissed off even more photographers.

    In their most recent act of "Marketing Suicide", they ignored the reality that photographers intuitively know a "digital con" when they see one. Not to mention that photographers are visual people, and usually know ugly when they see it. No single act they have done has had the perceptual impact of the Lunar Lunacy.

    There is more, but the slow road to oblivion seems the path Hasselblad kept choosing one decision at a time.

    - Marc
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    in spite of the fact that Phase makes a camera that everyone seems to dislike ergonomically, they seem to prosper and claim that tech camera use is a small proportion

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    I'm quite sure that here in scandinavia where both Phase One and Hasselblad are located, tech camera use is virtually non-existent, which I know from my contact with Scandinavian dealers and other users. My feeling is that tech camera use is much larger in the US. I don't know about europe as a whole. I don't know much about exactly how the scandinavian professional market looks, but judging from the contact with dealers and how they market themselves I'm quite sure it's almost 100% about studio fashion and portrait photography, with perhaps a little product/food on the side.

    About the V system here in Scandinavia -- it's stone dead. No professional is using it. I don't blame Hasseblad for discontinuing it. Amateurs might have used it if the digital backs didn't cost $15k. When I contacted the Swedish dealer with an interest in the CFV-50 they offered me to sell their last demo ex, so I would expect the CFV-50 to be last V back and be discontinued quite soon.

    I think the tech cam segment has a good growth potential though, especially in the amateur market. I would guess that in the US where tech cams are more common, it's more common to sell to an amateur than to a professional. So I don't think it would hurt for Hasselblad to be a bit more open and tech cam friendly. Their newest backs are supposedly quite easy to use with a tech cam, but their display etc (which is important for tech cam use) is still a bit behind Phase One.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I'm quite sure that here in scandinavia where both Phase One and Hasselblad are located, tech camera use is virtually non-existent, which I know from my contact with Scandinavian dealers and other users. My feeling is that tech camera use is much larger in the US. I don't know about europe as a whole. I don't know much about exactly how the scandinavian professional market looks, but judging from the contact with dealers and how they market themselves I'm quite sure it's almost 100% about studio fashion and portrait photography, with perhaps a little product/food on the side.

    About the V system here in Scandinavia -- it's stone dead. No professional is using it. I don't blame Hasseblad for discontinuing it. Amateurs might have used it if the digital backs didn't cost $15k. When I contacted the Swedish dealer with an interest in the CFV-50 they offered me to sell their last demo ex, so I would expect the CFV-50 to be last V back and be discontinued

    I think the tech cam segment has a good growth potential though, especially in the amateur market. I would guess that in the US where tech cams are more common, it's more common to sell to an amateur than to a professional. So I don't think it would hurt for Hasselblad to be a bit more open and tech cam friendly. Their newest backs are supposedly quite easy to use with a tech cam, but their display etc (which is important for tech cam use) is still a bit behind Phase One.

    I enjoy using my H5 with a tech cam (in my case Arca Swiss); however I must report that Hasselblad has not yet solved all of the design problems relative to making the user experience enjoyable.
    For example the clip on battery necessary to power the back is held on to the bottom of the camera with a male plug which will not support the weight of the battery holder and battery. To avoid the battery continuously falling off the camera, I have to secure the battery with a rubber band for support.
    Think about what I paid for the camera and the need for a rubber band to hold the system together. Hasselblad does not offer the focus mask that Phase One offers nor untethered live view although tethering with Phocus works well.
    Nevertheless, the resulting images are worth the inconvenience!
    Stanley

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    About the V system here in Scandinavia -- it's stone dead. No professional is using it. I don't blame Hasseblad for discontinuing it. Amateurs might have used it if the digital backs didn't cost $15k. When I contacted the Swedish dealer with an interest in the CFV-50 they offered me to sell their last demo ex, so I would expect the CFV-50 to be last V back and be discontinued quite soon.
    I discovered many years ago that the Hasselblad market in diferent countries can be hugely different. In the UK at least, many professional photographers still use the V system and many more are moving back to it. Some do it to experience again the discipline and reward of film photography and others are buying into it and getting digital backs at the same time, can I help someone find a secondhand CFV back is my most common question. Many colleges and students still use Hasselblad V system. I do agree that the demand for new equipment is very small so even I cannot expect a great revival but it is not dead and where there is demand there is hope.
    Classic V, support for Hasselblad V system cameras.
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    My issues with Hasselblad have been the lack of availability to extend the warranty.

    As any MF user will know, repair is COSTLY. But paying £3000 to get a years warranty on a unit with only 10,000 clicks doesn't seem reasonable vs the trade in value.

    Interesting times. I still think the H series is the best. I would of loved them to unlock the backs so I can swap between film and digital. (Without buying a H4X). Perhaps there's a technical reason why they can't or maybe it's a simple case of a firmware upgrade.
    Chris Giles Photography

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    It's just my own opinion, but I think the H body and general system of lenses is by far preferable to the DF+. I'd much rather have an IQ back to a H back though. Swings and roundabouts? I'm not so sure. While I'm not into rumour ware, Phase have repeatedly said they're to release a new body. Perhaps they should buy Hasselblad? (Only kind of joking here...)
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    And the sacrifice of the V system.
    Amen


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    As a long time Hasselblad user, I find it sad to see such a rumor … again.

    Personally, I don't subscribe to the usual "reasons why" as discussed here. I believe the root of their problem is/was poor marketing decisions that directly affected the product, and even worst communication with their targeted consumers regarding the good decisions they did make.

    There is an adage in marketing that says "Perception Is Reality". Hasselblad violated that on a regular basis. Whether out of arrogance or ignorance is irrelevant, only the long term net results count.

    Hasselblad launched the H camera with perceptual mistake #1. They severed their long time relationship with Zeiss to make lenses for the H system. It doesn't matter what the reality of the H lenses may be, how good they actually are, or who designed them and who made them, it created a perceptual inequity that persists to this day.

    They insisted on making the H camera "Plain Jane" grey, ignoring the over-whelming majority preference for a black camera.

    Hasselblad ignored the fact that their backs could not be used on a technical field camera, effectively handing all that potential pro and growing enthusiasts business to their competitors. The recent clip-on battery for the H5 is too little, too late.

    Hasselblad and Imacon became one, but the camera seemed to dominate in innovations, while the DBs consistently trailed Phase One DB innovations. A clear case of the tail wagging the dog. It is medium format DIGITAL, not MEDIUM FORMAT digital. Their camera was already ahead of the game, so they should have concentrated on the DBs.

    Instead of using their lead in camera development (perceptual or real), they closed the H system to use of other DBs. In reality, there were some good reasons to unify all components … but it defied "Perception is Reality", and Hasselblad never clearly communicated the technical reasons why they closed the system, so the perception was universally negative with no mitigating argument for doing what they did. The H4X marketing was yet another "mean move" that pissed off even more photographers.

    In their most recent act of "Marketing Suicide", they ignored the reality that photographers intuitively know a "digital con" when they see one. Not to mention that photographers are visual people, and usually know ugly when they see it. No single act they have done has had the perceptual impact of the Lunar Lunacy.

    There is more, but the slow road to oblivion seems the path Hasselblad kept choosing one decision at a time.

    - Marc
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    It's just my own opinion, but I think the H body and general system of lenses is by far preferable to the DF+. I'd much rather have an IQ back to a H back though. Swings and roundabouts? I'm not so sure. While I'm not into rumour ware, Phase have repeatedly said they're to release a new body. Perhaps they should buy Hasselblad? (Only kind of joking here...)
    I got a beater H1 and 80mm lens for cheap just to try my IQ160 on an SLR body and ended up really liking it. Even though my main body for the back is the awesome Arca Swiss RM3Di (with the Roddie 40mm and 70mm HR-W's) I like to use the Hassy every once in a while and have incorporated it in some of my work.

    I find the lens excellent and I use it mostly wide open.

    I am pretty sure the Schneider/K 80mm LS on the DF+ is similar but I do not have any experience with that system.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Who knows, maybe now that Hasselblad will have a new (wiser perhaps) owner and that Sony will soon be spitting big sensors with much better prices, the V could be revived. Mine (still) inside a plastic box with silica waiting for a digital back that doesn't hurt the rest of my life for ten years just for its sheer price of accuisition.
    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Fairbank View Post
    I discovered many years ago that the Hasselblad market in diferent countries can be hugely different. In the UK at least, many professional photographers still use the V system and many more are moving back to it. Some do it to experience again the discipline and reward of film photography and others are buying into it and getting digital backs at the same time, can I help someone find a secondhand CFV back is my most common question. Many colleges and students still use Hasselblad V system. I do agree that the demand for new equipment is very small so even I cannot expect a great revival but it is not dead and where there is demand there is hope.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    If I were a Hasselblad fan I wouldn't be too discouraged. I'm a long time Pentax user and I have read of their imminent demise many times and now the 645Z is a cause célèbre. I'm seeing reviews of the 645Z by people who don't have a 645Z or even a 645D and clearly are unfamiliar with the Pentax 645 system. In time, I'm sure it will be Hasselblad's turn, there's too much history there. It just may take a few years.

    Tom
    Last edited by tsjanik; 13th May 2014 at 16:50.
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Will return?

    It isn't gone.

    - Marc

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Hmm, who could buy the big H.

    Phase? While they need a new camera, running two camera lines would be really complex. I am not sure they have the funds either.

    Sony? Interesting idea. They have bought camera companies before--Minolta is where they got their DSLRs and Nex series camera. They have been pursuing the high end camera, but I am not sure MFD is too high end and too small.

    Fuji. Now that would be really interesting. They have run small product lines before. Perhaps a MFD Xtrans sensor. They certain could take over the optics.

    It would be a big loss to lose another camera company, especially Hasselblad. By the camera market has not been good and this would not be a surprise.
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    I don't think sony is in a position to buy any company. They have been closing their retail stores in the areas I frequently travel to and I have read that their other electronics like tv's are losing big dollars...

    Who knows.

    Robb

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Hey, if Leica could pull its socks up then anything can happen with regards to Hasselblad. I'd hazard a guess and say they were in a worse position than Hasselblad at the end of the Hermes days, now look at them.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Sony's financial report:



    MP&C = Mobile devices and computers (phones, tablets, laptops, etc.)
    Game = Playstation
    IP&S = Imaging products and Solutions (still/video cameras and broadcast)
    HE&S = Home entertainment and sound (televisions, home theater systems)
    Devices = Semiconductors and components (OEM parts sold to other companies, like sensors and processors)
    The others are self-explanatory.

    Overall, Sony is actually seeing a profit compared to last year, especially the digital imaging sector, but they really outta do something about their computer and television divisions...
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    My information is that the rumours are exactly that.

    My sources tell me that the owners have just laid out a long term for the company and have lot's of exciting things in the pipeline so I think we can lay this one to rest.

    (Cross posted to Luminous Landscape)

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    I laid it to rest at the first hint of it. Why I never made a comment. Need to remember Nikon killed off MF awhile ago, don't you remember that. ROTFLMAO

    Now Hassy like Phase like Leica need to address more functionality cameras but we have been saying that for years. That does not mean the end of any of them. This is a Photokinia year so things are quiet until than. Been like that as long as I have been shooting.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    I am curious as to what's been going on recently. An H5D-40 system for 12,995. A great price for a great camera, but why? Something new? Discontinuing the 40? I'm actually demoing one in the studio right now alongside my H3D 22. Just had a demo with a few IQs and I still feel the the H system is the better fit for me and greatly prefer Phocus to C1. Don't need bells and whistles. Just get me past point A and I'll get to point B.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by jmosier01 View Post
    Just had a demo with a few IQs and I still feel the the H system is the better fit for me and greatly prefer Phocus to C1. Don't need bells and whistles. Just get me past point A and I'll get to point B.
    Capture One is like the New York Times. By default it comes with everything for everyone. But it's very easy to tear out all the stuff you don't need. It can have many more icons than Phocus or many many less. If all you want is white balance and a process button you could do it. We cover this in our basic class and Capture One Masters Program, or 1v1 with any of our customers.

    It's really really good software.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  34. #34
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Sales pitch begins.
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    I'd say Doug is pretty damn enthusiastic about C1 butte's not a salesman in the negative sense of the word.

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    @jmosier01 I think you'll like the 40. I went from a 31 to a 40 and there is certainly a quality improvement, not just in file size. My 31 is better than my 16 which is better than my 6 (which needs SCSI!).

    Nick-T

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by jmosier01 View Post
    I am curious as to what's been going on recently. An H5D-40 system for 12,995. A great price for a great camera, but why? Something new? Discontinuing the 40? I'm actually demoing one in the studio right now alongside my H3D 22. Just had a demo with a few IQs and I still feel the the H system is the better fit for me and greatly prefer Phocus to C1. Don't need bells and whistles. Just get me past point A and I'll get to point B.
    Photokinia year. Bottom line is clear as much stock as possible. That's everyone not just Hassy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  38. #38
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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Photokinia year. Bottom line is clear as much stock as possible. That's everyone not just Hassy
    Comes down to one or the other. You have something new or your worried the competition just might smoke ya. Either case you try to get as much revenue before it starts.

    Been like this for years
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Damn I phones I quoted myself
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Capture One is like the New York Times.
    It fires its managing editor on a whim?

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    Re: Oh Dear .. tho the writing did seem to be on the Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    It fires its managing editor on a whim?
    That was the part of the metaphor I was going for.

    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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