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Thread: Changing Medium Format

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    Changing Medium Format

    hi guys,

    im actually photographing on a canon system portraits, landscape and stills. i like to move more into the genre architecture photography in connection with nature.

    i also use an analoge large format system for some landscape pictures; still know the movements :-) (i use 300mm nikkor, 150mm schneider).

    buying tilt/shift for my canon system (24mm and 45mm) will be okay. on the other side i still think about the option buying a digital mediumformat system. i can use it for my studio work and also for my landscape and minimalistic architecture work.

    but my budget is about 8000.-
    canon tse will cost me about 3500 ....and then ? (knowing that i will buy a mediumformat system in one or two years :-) )

    but for 8000 i cannot buy a rm3di or a techno with one or two lenses...and a digital pack oO

    how would you solve this situation? have you any suggestions :-)

    maybe a stupid question but i actually an important for me :-)

    best michael

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Hi Michel,

    your first step should be to decide you for a system:

    a) Tech.Cam

    Cambo, Arca or Alpa

    Each is good but a little bit different (you should find some threads here). Lenses are avaible the same for all systems.

    b) Your MF system

    I think there are two main-systems: Phase One and Hasselblad. Or you take a Pentax, which is growing (but with this you don't have the option for a Tech.Cam because you don't have a digital back; Pentax is a camera system).

    Here are some differences, too.

    And for your 8.000 Euro, I think, it must be an older system. Perhaps something with 22/30 MP? Phase P25/P30, Leaf Aptus II-5,6,7 or H3D-31. Something in this kind...
    + additional lenses you need.

    And if you add up all this I think there's not much money left for your Tech.Cam-System.

    So think carefully about all and don't take the first-best offer.

    But I think even with a 22 or 30 MP MF-system and especially in architecture you will get better pictures than with your Canon system.
    I had thought longer for upgrade my older Nikon D700 for a D800e - but I had a Mamiya DM22 (same as Leaf Aptus II-5) and got better pictures with this system than with the D800e I borrowed from a friend.
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    I don't think that a tilt/shift system is a real requirement in architecture today, since one cna correct the perspective in post.

    But if you are considering MF and need tilt/shift, you should know about the Hasselblad HTS system. Basically, it allows tilt/shift on Hasselblad H lenses. Two drawbacks: it includes a 1.5x converter, so your wide-angles are less wide and it disables autofocus.

    Your budget is a bit low for a medium format system with tilt/shift.

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Your budget isn't enough for what you're looking for.

    But if you could put 8k down and start a lease for an additional 5-10k for instance then you'd have enough to look at a few good options from various vendors. In the US getting such a lease wouldn't be very hard and at the end of the lease you down everything outright.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    How about a Cambo Wide RS or Wide DS with a SK Digitar 5.6/35mm and a Leaf Aptus 75S? You could find a lot of that stuff used. IMO the "only" downside of the Aptus 75S is the lack of live view.

    best,

    geb

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Given what you can do with a Canon 17TS these days, I tend to agree with Doug. As a pro archi shooter myself, I think if you are going to jump into MF, you would need to be leveraging the advantages of the higher end backs and primo lenses like the HR Digarons. If your budget does not allow this, then buying a significantly older back and compromising your lens choice defeats the purpose of gaining the significant advantages that MF still offers architectural shooters. It doesn't make good business sense. Leasing was how I equipped my business for the first 20 years. However, in making a decision to take on a lease, keep in mind that architectural photography is a market segment that is being squeezed by reduced barriers to entry as well as increased use of CGI. The big $20-40k shoots are still there, but all the bread and butter stuff that used to yield half and full-day shoots are quickly disappearing, either to CGI, or to some Guy-with-camera. Making a leasing decision banking on future earnings is a big call. My current strategy is based on a "if I can't pay cash, I can't afford it yet" philosophy. Build your client base and revenue first, then stock your kit bag.
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    so, time has come.... what do you think about a solution with the new hasselblad back which fits originally on the v system. price for about 11k seams very attractive.

    with this back im able to use my good old 501cm and i can extend it later with a arca rm3di.

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    you have not considered an option Hasselblad arcbody vs flexbody ?

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    sorry but i dont know what you mean exactly ?

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    Arrow Re: Changing Medium Format

    A New EOS Pro Body With 46mp Next Month? [CR1] Canon Rumors

    Their is rumored to be a new Canon body coming , TBA PhotoExpo.
    Ciao,
    Giorgio Niro
    www.giorgioniro.com

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    The rumor about a 50MP Canon has been around for years. And just like the D800 was no substitute for MFD, I don't think this will be either--if it is actually more than a rumor...

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Canon is due for sure, and the timing fits, the Photoexpo shot in NY is where all the past big MP 35mm were announced.

    I don't put it past them. The rumored Price point is possibly more than the 645z, which has proven itself to be a very good camera. If I was at that cross road, I think the Pentax would work better for me.

    Paul

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    €8000 is a bit too small a budget. You can get a second hand system, but it would need to be say a Silvestri with a 22 megapixel back, or a 4x5" geared Sinar. With the 22 megapixel sensors many analog large format lenses will be okay. If you enjoy MF gear it can be fun, but not really a good solution for pro photography.

    In the last couple of years there's been an increased pressure from 135 through their high MP and high DR sensors. A 22 megapixel Hasselblad CF22 might not feel that sexy when compared to a 36 megapixel Nikon D810. State of the art MFD tech cam gear is extremely expensive, and some feel that they need to go there to "keep the distance" from the lower cost systems.

    I think the current best price/performance for tech photography is a Sony A7r with adapters and Canon and Contax tilt-shift lenses. There's been some quality issues with the metabones adapters though, I don't know what the current status is.

    If you double your budget and can accept the risk and work involved in buying second hand you can get a capable MF tech system. I prefer those for technical photography, feels less "messy" to work with than the tilt-shift lenses. Having movements in the body so you get flexible and precise tilt-shift for all focal lengths is just so much more elegant than those bulky and sometime hard-to-find tilt-shift lenses for the 135 systems.

    Key is to be satisfied with a legacy digital back, the modern ones break budgets. I'd suggest a 33 or 39 megapixel back. In absolute resolution you can make quite large prints and you have less aliasing issues than with the 22 megapixel backs. €3500 - €4500 for the back, then get one of those view cameras for landscape and architecture, Linhof Techno, Arca-Swiss MF-two. Even if body is expensive lens boards instead of helicals will make the system cheaper in time. I have the Techno myself and like it for it's compactness, but the MF-two is a bit more economical and more flexible. Arca-Swiss just released the Universalis which seems to be some sort of follow-up on the MF-two, but if on the second hand market it's the MF-two you should look for. Unfortunately both Linhof Techno and Arca-Swiss MF-two appear only rarely second hand. Cambo, Alpa and Rm3Di cameras are easier to get second hand, but will generally be more expensive systems due to costly lens mounts.

    Buying second hand is a risk though, I needed to repair my digital back which was a costly messy story. Such things can happen. In terms of cost even if things go bad you generally end up spending less money than going through a typical "pre-owned" deal, at least if turning to an European dealer, but sending a digital back back-and-forth for repair is not fun.

    If you need low risk and low budget, go 135 for sure and adapt to its limitations. The typical problem is the lack of high quality tilt-shift lenses. The Canon TS-E 24II and TS-E 17 are good and have flexible movements, the 90mm too (less flexible movements though), but not the 45. For 35mm a Contax shift lens is good (no tilt on that though). If you can't get the Contax or need tilt, the TS-E 24II + extender 1.4 III gives a decent 35mm, a bit soft but stable corner to corner.
    Last edited by torger; 21st September 2014 at 08:10.

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    if i can have the cfv-50c for 11000€ and put it on my 501 with my planar cfi planar lenses it will be okay.
    extending with a rm3di for tilt shift later.

    but first i have to test it on my system personally if the good old lenses have enough for such a digipack.

    best michael

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    I guess you are aware that you will have limited wide angle options with the CFV-50c, due to that the Sony sensor is not so good with technical wide angle designs? If not, do study the subject in advance, otherwise you may end up disappointed when you're later on getting that RM3Di system.

    That said the CFV-50c has unbeatable value among the detachable back options, $20k cheaper than the $35k IQ250. You can get the same sensor at an even lower cost in the Pentax 645z, but that's not a system for technical photography.

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    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    If the rumor is indeed true, it will be interesting to see the IQ of a 46MP 35mm full frame compared to the Pentax 645Z which is at the same price point, and 50MP in a full frame MF sensor.
    Bryan

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Quote Originally Posted by gmfotografie View Post
    sorry but i dont know what you mean exactly ?
    Hasselblad Flex Body | Real Photographers Forum

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    I don't think the flexbody or arcbody is a very good alternative for wide angle photography with a sensor as small as 44x33mm. Being analog designs for 56x56mm film they don't have the rigidity and parallelism as we come to expect in digital. The arcbody wide angle, Rodenstock apo-grandagon 35mm, will probably not work too well with the CFV-50c due to crosstalk.

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    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post


    Linhof Techno, Arca-Swiss MF-two. Even if body is expensive lens boards instead of helicals will make the system cheaper in time. I have the Techno myself and like it for it's compactness, but the MF-two is a bit more economical and more flexible. Arca-Swiss just released the Universalis which seems to be some sort of follow-up on the MF-two, but if on the second hand market it's the MF-two you should look for. Unfortunately both Linhof Techno and Arca-Swiss MF-two appear only rarely second hand. Cambo, Alpa and Rm3Di cameras are easier to get second hand, but will generally be more expensive systems due to costly lens mounts.
    HI

    You should not overlook the Arca M series, I got a great deal on mine, and also look at the Arca F line Metric.

    The M is a little heavier - more of a studio camera, - not so easy to put in a back pack, BUT the F line Metric is lighter and does an excellence job with digital

    Both of these cameras, give you complete 100% movements on both the front and back standard, and both are precise.

    Not as compact as a Tech (nor as light), but also no special mountings required.

    You can also get mounting plates for the rear standard for Sony, Canon, Nikon, bodies, along with digital backs, and film is still a viable option if you so chose.

    Thanks

    Phil

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    HI

    You should not overlook the Arca M series, I got a great deal on mine, and also look at the Arca F line Metric.

    The M is a little heavier - more of a studio camera, - not so easy to put in a back pack, BUT the F line Metric is lighter and does an excellence job with digital

    Both of these cameras, give you complete 100% movements on both the front and back standard, and both are precise.

    Not as compact as a Tech (nor as light), but also no special mountings required.

    You can also get mounting plates for the rear standard for Sony, Canon, Nikon, bodies, along with digital backs, and film is still a viable option if you so chose.

    Thanks

    Phil
    Have you seen the new Universalis? It's like an M line but lighter and smaller:
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    There is no coincidence that back tilt/swing has been dropped in digital field view cameras. With tilt/swing in both front and back standard it becomes really tough to keep parallelism to the degree required for the short focal lengths used in digital when making wide angle shots.

    There's a limit to how precise the zero dents on tilt swing can be, and if you have it both on front and back standard you get two sources of parallelism error. For product and closeup it doesn't matter, but for wide angle focused at a distance it does.

    Therefore I'm a bit skeptical about the F-line being suitable for digital, but maybe it's okay. If you do go for a system primarily designed for analog your first thing to investigate is how parallelism will hold up for the wide angle shots. One test could be to focus at infinity shoot some test images of a detailed scene and look at the sides of the images and see if it's rendered equally sharp. With parallelism errors one side can be less sharp than the other.

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    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    There is no coincidence that back tilt/swing has been dropped in digital field view cameras. With tilt/swing in both front and back standard it becomes really tough to keep parallelism to the degree required for the short focal lengths used in digital when making wide angle shots.

    There's a limit to how precise the zero dents on tilt swing can be, and if you have it both on front and back standard you get two sources of parallelism error. For product and closeup it doesn't matter, but for wide angle focused at a distance it does.

    Therefore I'm a bit skeptical about the F-line being suitable for digital, but maybe it's okay. If you do go for a system primarily designed for analog your first thing to investigate is how parallelism will hold up for the wide angle shots. One test could be to focus at infinity shoot some test images of a detailed scene and look at the sides of the images and see if it's rendered equally sharp. With parallelism errors one side can be less sharp than the other.
    I was concerned about this also, I have checked both my F and M with a digital Micrometer and the are exact to 3 decimal places measuring in millimeters. The F line metric and the M are suitable, at least with IQ 80 back, Also check when shooting by testing and tethering, the lens in the mount has to also be square on. Personally I really like the view camera set up, it is more set up than the tech (which has become my first love) but something about that's really cool.

    Arca does a good job I was very impressed with Jack Dykinga (I know he shot mainly film which is more forgiving) , I have heard Linhoff also does it well also, but slightly more limited. I debated between the two, but as mentioned got a great deal on the M then an F and the AS support in the US is top - notch.

    I agree with you about being careful, but the process itself is very measured.

    Phil
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    i raise my limit to 20k € . so cfv-50c in combination with an alpa or a rm3di would be in my focus. weight and size of the camera is also an important factor for me.

    actually my favorite lense on my 4x5 are the 300mm, 150mm and the 125mm

    turning to such a system seams not so easy ��

    a lot of questions and answers... which lenses for wide angle due to color accurancy ( cfv50c), alpa or arca system....

    best michael
    [ no picture ]

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    I see that you live in Tamsweg, Austria. That is about a 3 hours drive from Munich, where I live. I could demo you the Hasselblad HTS if you are interested (I am not a dealer, so I would prefer to do the demo in a week-end).
    The Munich Calumet branch also will have a demo of Hasselblad products on 30.10.2014. That may be another option:
    HASSELBLAD System-Tage bei Calumet

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    If budget is the concern then rather than Alpa or Arca I'd seriously consider the equally excellent Cambo system since the lenses are exactly the same. Get the best back you can afford plus obviously lenses and then decide on the tech body. They are all good - I love my Alpa but if budget were a concern I wouldn't hesitate to go with the Cambo.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Quote Originally Posted by gmfotografie View Post
    i raise my limit to 20k . so cfv-50c in combination with an alpa or a rm3di would be in my focus. weight and size of the camera is also an important factor for me.

    actually my favorite lense on my 4x5 are the 300mm, 150mm and the 125mm

    turning to such a system seams not so easy ��

    a lot of questions and answers... which lenses for wide angle due to color accurancy ( cfv50c), alpa or arca system....

    best michael

    +1 for Cambo if your budget is limited. Great system, and a basic kit can be considerably less than Alpa or Arca.

    A basic guide to 50mp CMOS lens selection can be found here:
    Tech Camera Overview
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    thank you for this basic guide!

    clear information for a tech-beginner. it seams that a 50mp has a lot of limitations due to color cast because of the smaler pixel sizes...

    because i often use a 35mm lens on my 5dii, a rodenstock 40mm hr-w will be the right equivalent with a 50mp digipack.
    Last edited by gmfotografie; 6th October 2014 at 12:31.
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    50 Mpx CMOS sensor with a 40 MM HR Roadie is 12mm of shift in either direction. Read the Credo 50 review.

    You can go to 15mm but you will pick up a slight magenta cast which you could elminate it with some tricks.

    This is real world not theory.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...y-mancuso.html
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    The last time I checked, over 1 year ago, Cambo and Arca were pretty much a wash by the time you added the T/S mount to the lens for Cambo. If you leave it off, then you are pretty limited IMO. Tilt is very important on these lenses, on any sensor.

    Current would a rm3di and WRS-1250 or 5000.

    When I did the math, Cambo body to body is cheaper, but when you add the T/S mount to the lenses, it gets very close if not the same.

    Cambo may have reduced the cost of the T/S mount, I have not kept up with their prices on mounts or bodies.

    Paul

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    agree look at system price not by the parts. You want to look at total costs

    Don't forget mounting plates and accessories as well. Buy a system, price a system in total
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    If budget is the concern then rather than Alpa or Arca I'd seriously consider the equally excellent Cambo system since the lenses are exactly the same. Get the best back you can afford plus obviously lenses and then decide on the tech body. They are all good - I love my Alpa but if budget were a concern I wouldn't hesitate to go with the Cambo.
    I'm in total agreement..... I also own Alpa but wouldn't hesitate to buy Cambo.

    Victor

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    I owned cambo and i really liked the system . All three are very good, its really about feature sets and pricing.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    can you give me some hints which cambo will be a good solution for architecture and landscape. most of the time i will use a 35mm and a 50 mm calculated for a 5diii fullframe. (architecture -> interior)

    i will also combine this with a digipack .. maybe the cfv-50c.

    best michael
    [ no picture ]

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    The WRS is very good; the 400 is quite compact but movements only in one direction all the mounts (front and back) are modular and interchangeable.

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    thank you ... what do you think about a solution with a credo leaf 40?
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    The Leaf Credo 40 is a good idea; very simple to correct via LCC. For me it's especially a good idea because you can shift the 24mm Schneider XL with this, too (with my previous DM22=48x36mm this was not possible).

    If 40 MP (or one day 60MP) is enough for you perhaps have a look for the 55mm Rodenstock. This is a lens which you can shift much more than any other lens I know.
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    So this could be a possibility?

    What do you think about this setup ?

    WRS-1250
    SLW-88 interface for CFV-50c
    Digitar-60/5.6
    Digaron-32/4.0
    Rodenstock 40HR
    [ no picture ]

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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Quote Originally Posted by gmfotografie View Post
    thank you ... what do you think about a solution with a credo leaf 40?
    The jury is not quite in on the CMOS sensor. The Leaf 40 is a fine back, and allows the use of some of the less expensive lenses. I use the Leaf 7 back with the 35XL and the 55 Apo Sironar with great pleasure.

  39. #39
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    i think your lenses are too close together in focal length. i use 43, 70, 120 with a full frame digital back (IQ-160).

    maybe a 32, 60, 120 would work for you?

  40. #40
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    Re: Changing Medium Format

    Dear my friends, i have also take a look at the Linhof Techno.

    .)
    With the new Digipacks with LiveView Options it should be also a great combination?
    The ability using film without using special modifyed lenses is great.
    Whats your opinion ?

    .)
    Which viewcamera camera can use 4x5 film and is precise to use digital packs?
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