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Thread: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

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    Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Going through my images from a recent trip I'm finding some of them shot with the Rodie 40HR has a rather peculiar flare or whatever it is.

    The images shown here are some of the worst examples, others are more subtle or somewhere in between.

    I know the lens is sensitive to flare and needs to be shaded and I'm using the Cambo Compendium and always try to make sure no light is hitting the lens.
    Can it be caused from stray light entering from the side/back and being reflected into the lens?

    What's going on here?

    The first image is with no shift, but some rise. The second is with the same rise and 10mm shift.



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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Here's another example, 10mm shift, don't remember if there were any rise/fall.

    Last edited by Pemihan; 30th May 2014 at 07:27.
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Were you using a center filter?

    Are these before or after applying LCC?

    Is the pattern visible in the LCC frame?

    Are you using a glossy or matte LCC panel?
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    I assume you are referring to the circular artefacting most evident in the dark corners in the sky, but pretty much occurring all the way around.
    Firstly, it appears these images haven't had LCC applied yet.The falloff and colour shift suggests this. If, as I suspect, one of the culprits is Lenscast, then the problem is easily solved.
    In your first shot however, the brightest part of the image is smack in the centre of your frame and as such, it is possible it is the source of the flare. I am leaning less towards this possibility as the dynamic range in the image, if you ignore the deep shadows below the rocks, is not that large. One can sometimes notice this type of flare when you have a small, very bright part of the image in an image that is overall relatively dark.
    If the images aren't yet corrected for lens cast, do that and show us the images. We'll take it from there.
    I have a 40HR myself and find it only flares if there is a bright source of non-image-forming light just out of frame and when it does, it manifests as a directional flare from the direction of the light source, not as a circle.
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Hi Doug,

    No center filter.

    The images shown above are before LCC.

    In some of the LCC frames the pattern is worse, in some the same and in some less.

    I'm using a matte LCC panel.

    Peter


    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Were you using a center filter?

    Are these before or after applying LCC?

    Is the pattern visible in the LCC frame?

    Are you using a glossy or matte LCC panel?
    Last edited by Pemihan; 30th May 2014 at 11:30.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Thanks Bryan,

    Yes it's the circular patterns I'm referring to.

    I'll upload the images with LCC applied in a moment.

    Peer

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    I assume you are referring to the circular artefacting most evident in the dark corners in the sky, but pretty much occurring all the way around.
    Firstly, it appears these images haven't had LCC applied yet.The falloff and colour shift suggests this. If, as I suspect, one of the culprits is Lenscast, then the problem is easily solved.
    In your first shot however, the brightest part of the image is smack in the centre of your frame and as such, it is possible it is the source of the flare. I am leaning less towards this possibility as the dynamic range in the image, if you ignore the deep shadows below the rocks, is not that large. One can sometimes notice this type of flare when you have a small, very bright part of the image in an image that is overall relatively dark.
    If the images aren't yet corrected for lens cast, do that and show us the images. We'll take it from there.
    I have a 40HR myself and find it only flares if there is a bright source of non-image-forming light just out of frame and when it does, it manifests as a directional flare from the direction of the light source, not as a circle.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Here are the same images as above but with LCC applied:





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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Do you have a UV filter on your lens? It also seems this happens when the sun is high in the sky.

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Here's an LCC frame which is way worse than the actual image (not one of the above)

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    No filters at all.

    I haven't analyzed all the images with the problem yet, but yes on the images above the sun is high in the sky..

    Bear in mind I also have many images from the Rodie 40 which doesn't exhibit this problem.

    Thanks
    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Do you have a UV filter on your lens? It also seems this happens when the sun is high in the sky.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Peter, would it be true to say when you look down the lens, somewhere between the outer glass of the front element and the aperture, there is a metal feature like a retaining ring for another element or a series of rings? I have only seen one image of this lens from the front. I am wondering under a strongly illuminated landscape, that an internal reflection from such a feature is visible in the image? Just like a aperture is reflected in the optics, which we are more accustomed to as flare.

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Will, I don't have the lens with me at the moment and won't be able to check before Monday but will surely do so and report back.
    If anyone else have the lens and care to check before then it would be great..

    But the thing is that I have images shot just before or just after with the same kind of strongly illuminated scenes that doesn't exhibit the issue at all..

    A wild shot, probably not likely but could it be an issue with the Copal shutter?

    Peter


    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Peter, would it be true to say when you look down the lens, somewhere between the outer glass of the front element and the aperture, there is a metal feature like a retaining ring for another element or a series of rings? I have only seen one image of this lens from the front. I am wondering under a strongly illuminated landscape, that an internal reflection from such a feature is visible in the image? Just like a aperture is reflected in the optics, which we are more accustomed to as flare.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    Here's an LCC frame which is way worse than the actual image (not one of the above)

    This looks like an uncorrected frame shot with the LCC filter......
    Siebel
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Just to eliminate this possibility, you have checked the box for Tech-cams in the LCC window, right?
    Siebel
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Bryan,

    Yes it is a frame shot with the LCC plate. Nothing has been done to it besides resizing and comverting to jpeg.

    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    This looks like an uncorrected frame shot with the LCC filter......
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Right....

    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Just to eliminate this possibility, you have checked the box for Tech-cams in the LCC window, right?
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Given the amount of shift you are using, I'm very, very surprised at how prominent the bright and also the dark rings are. I don't remember ever having seen it with my own 40HR. I'm just going to shoot a test LCC frame.......
    Siebel
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    I've just shot an LCC frame with my 40mm on my IQ180 with 15mm shift on the long axis.
    It shows neither the light nor the dark ring, just the expected magenta/green cast and a continuous tonal falloff. As the 80MP sensor exhibits the worst lens cast, I would have expected to see it here if that is the issue. I'm starting to lean towards a lens problem but its hard to test without another 40mm test lens on your setup.
    What back are you using?
    Siebel
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Thanks for testing Bryan,

    I'm using a IQ160...

    I'm thinking it is either a lens problem or some kind of weird flare caused by light hitting the ring of the compendium being reflected into the lens..

    I will need to do some controlled testing once I'm back home Monday.

    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    I've just shot an LCC frame with my 40mm on my IQ180 with 15mm shift on the long axis.
    It shows neither the light nor the dark ring, just the expected magenta/green cast and a continuous tonal falloff. As the 80MP sensor exhibits the worst lens cast, I would have expected to see it here if that is the issue. I'm starting to lean towards a lens problem but its hard to test without another 40mm test lens on your setup.
    What back are you using?
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    I believe I know exactly what you are seeing, nothing wrong with the hood.
    Lighter band, is the penumbra, you will need to look that up for the true definition but with the Rodenstocks and a long shift, you hit the penumbra and it creates the lighter band. The dark band, is the edge of the disc, that Rodenstock places inside the lens to make sure you don't shift too far past their intended image circle. Stupid design IMO. They should leave the disk out. In Guy's review of the Rod 28mm he shows several good examples of "hitting the disc" i.e. the wall of the IC with a Rodenstock Lens. I don't believe you should be seeing it with 10mm of shift however, but it looks just like the effect I get with my 28mm when it's shifted past the useable image circle. As far as I know Rodenstock doesn't make a CF for the 40mm, but they might need to look at your lens if this is showing up at only 10mm of shfit.

    The disc also helps to make the penumbra stand out even worse.
    The 40mm on your back should shift to about 18mm before you really see the disc (dark vignette). It will always show up worse on a solid blue sky like you have. The LCC will not correct it and in fact may make it worse IMO.

    This is something that I get into all the time with the Rodenstock 28mm with shifts past 5mm. The penumbra shows up at about 6mm, the white band and then you will see the hard vignette of the disc.

    Rodenstock IMO should not do this, as their lenses many times will easily go past their intended IC, I know the 28mm without the disc would get to 10mm before it was totally soft as I can shift it to there and see the edges in the middle of the shift not blackened out by the disc.

    On my 260, I can get to 15mm clean horizontally. I can push the lens to 18mm, but I will start to see both the white band, and then the dark vignette. My 40mm does not show the penumbra band as bad or as harsh as your images shows. That looks just like my 28mm however.

    Phase Backs will show less of this on rise fall, than on shift, i.e you can get a bit more rise or fall before you start to see it. Where as the older Leaf backs are just the opposite and you can get a bit more shift. It's due to the layout of the chip. X, Y axis.

    Paul

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    A very interesting explanation . Thank you Paul .
    I have both lenses , the 28mm and the 40mm but never saw that phenomena .
    My understanding is , that you will not see that penumbra when the light comes from the side or from behind the camera . ? ? ?
    Also , I think that the issue will be less obvious when using a smaller sensor like with my CFV-39 and CFV-50 . The sensor size here is 37x49 mm only .
    I never shift more than 5mm with the 28mm lens either way and 15mm with the 40mm .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Jurgen: (can't figure out how to type the u to show the accent)

    I first saw it on the 28mm, with shifts over 5mm, sun at my back, and my reaction was similar to the OP's, "what the *@%* is that" as it ruins the image.

    I use the CF on the 28mm, and as I recall, the CF on shifts may make this effect even a bit worse.

    I am like you, on the 28mm, I never take it past 5mm, if I have sky pure blue, but will go to 7mm if the scene has non sky or sky with clouds as the lens will definitively make it resolution wise.

    I have shifted my 40mm in a test all the way to 18mm and I don't remember getting the penumbra, but for sure hit the disc in the upper and lower corners.

    The problem with the disc, is that it creates a void, almost a reversal which is just as had to correct. In the image's from the OP I though at first the dark edge was the disc, but looking back, there is image detail behind the dark vignette, so not sure what is going on optically. However the light band, is identical to the penumbra effect I get with the 28mm as it's shifted too far past the edge of the IC.

    Paul

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Paul, thank you for the detailed explanation.

    What bugs me is that the first image I posted in the thread is only with some rise and no shift.
    Another thing, shouldn't the corner of the image be solid black if I was hitting the disc and not "only" a black band as seen in the LCC shot?

    None of the images has been beyond 10mm shift which shouldn't be a problem but of course combined with rise/fall problems could arise.
    And also I have shot many more images with 10mm shifts and maybe some rise/fall with no problems showing.

    One thing I have noticed is that the issue is more dominant on the left side of the images. Could be a coincidence or it could point towards something being out of whack in the lens.

    Another peculiar thing, the three LCC's below are shot with about 4-5mm fall and are with no shift, 10mm left and 10mm right. Notice how the issue is visible in the no shift and 10mm left image but not at all in the 10mm right image. Also it's only visible in the LCC shots and not in the actual image...! Very weird....

    No shift


    10mm left


    10mm right


    10mm left comparing actual image and corresponding LCC
    Last edited by Pemihan; 30th May 2014 at 14:13.
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    I am pretty certain about the penumbra but I agree I don't understand why after the dark appears it's not all dark.

    I am curious what you see with just 15mm of shift no rise or fall. If you see any of the white band or not.


    I would also try shifting right and left to see if you hit the disc at the same amount of mm of shift. If something is out of alignment this might show if the disc shows up sooner on one side than the other.

    Paul

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Pemiham:

    Just sent you a PM, might also be a light leak. What type of camera are you using? Tech or a camera with a bellows/lens board.

    Your right shift LCC looks like it should and it's the same amount of shift. The Left side may have a light leak causing the effect, especially since the image is OK and the effect is showing up only on the LCC, not in the image.

    When I hit the penumbra on my 28mm, most times I can see it also on the image especially against a blue sky.

    Paul

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Paul,

    Just replied your PM.

    I'm using a Cambo WRS with the Cambo compendium which has the same gap for filters as what you're explaining. The lens is mounted in Cambo's Tilt/Swing board.

    I was leaning towards the issue being caused by light hitting the front of the hole in the compendium where the lens is shooting through. Since I use the filter slot for the LCC plate the hole is in front of the lens and as such light hitting the edge of the hole might being reflected into the lens causing the issue. (hope this makes sense)

    One thing that leads me away from this conclusion is that after going through all my images I can say that the issue is only present on the left side of the images and almost exclusively when shifting 10 mm left. In a few images where I have used rather big rise or fall the issue is also visible with no shift as shown in the first image in the thread.
    Also it is more or less visible in all shots shifted 10mm left.
    That leads me to think something is wrong with lens.

    Also I have used the compendium under the same circumstances with SK60XL, SK120 Aspheric and previously SK35XL and SK47XL with no issues. Only the Rodenstock is showing it.

    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    I have the 40mm HR (Arca R) and use it on my RM3Di with my IQ160 a lot and have never seen this. I use a LOT of rise/fall with back horizontal and vertical and have not seen this. The image is excellent almost all the way to the edge of the disk.

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    I have the 40mm HR (Arca R) and use it on my RM3Di with my IQ160 a lot and have never seen this. I use a LOT of rise/fall with back horizontal and vertical and have not seen this. The image is excellent almost all the way to the edge of the disk.
    Same for me and I have used my 40 HR with the Aptus II 80 back without ever seeing this problem. I've shifted left and right with an additional rise movement for stitching purposes until the hard disk shows up, but never seen the other bands you are dealing with.

    You may need to send both your body and lens to Cambo to be checked out. At least send them a few files to start a support case.

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    I can hardly believe , that this is caused by straylight from the filter slots .
    I never ever experienced something like this , when using the LEE bellows hood with filter slots . And the light would come both sides .

    To me , it looks like a symetrie issue in the lens as total unit .
    ( lens , lens mount , shutter etc.) .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Have you shot a boring "brick wall test" at wider aperture to try ascertain if there is any funky stuff happening on one side or the other? I guess if an element or group of elements were slightly out of alignment you would see that quite easily when using wide apertures, but it would be somewhat covered up at f11 and smaller?

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Thanks guys,

    I have not shot a "brick wall test" but will do some testing Monday morning before sending the lens back to Cambo.

    I got the lens less than two months ago so it is fully under warranty. My recent trip to Arizona two weeks ago is the first time I really put it through it's paces and I'm really disapointed to find this issue on all images from the lens where I have been using left shift.

    I usually either take a pretty much centered image, maybe with a little rise or fall or I do three images for 16:9 panos; 10mm left, straight on and 10mm right , maybe with a little rise/fall as well.
    Pretty much all centered images are fine except in a few instances using a lot of rise/fall, but all images shifted 10mm left shows the issue to some degree, none of the 10mm right shifted images shows it.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Sounds like it's an issue with your lens only. As far as I can tell the 40mm is an amazing lens, although prone to some flare if not used with a hood. Not flare like this, however!
    Good luck!

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Peter, You have either a light leak or a defective lens. This is not lens flare and with or without CF you should not be seeing this. What does your dealer say?

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Peter, You have either a light leak or a defective lens. This is not lens flare and with or without CF you should not be seeing this. What does your dealer say?

    How could you have a light leak with a CAMBO WRS ? ? ?
    Unless your lens is not properly mounted , which would be very unlikely .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Agreed. Not normal. Work with your dealer to isolate and resolve.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Not sure this is still needed, but here is a photo of the front of a 40hr. This is with the aperture ring all the way open past f/4. Aperture blades appear just behind that last center ring when you stop down:

    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Thanks for the photo Dave and thanks for your input everybody.

    I have been looking through all of my photos shot on the trip and the issue is present on ALL images shot using the Rodie 40 with left shift and in some of the centered shots when using a bigger amount of rise/fall. On ALL right shifted shots everything seems normal.

    On the trip I also shot a lot with the SK60XL and SK120 Aspheric and there's absolutely no issues on images shot with those two lenses.

    So the only logical conclusion I can come to is that something is wrong with the lens and I will send it back to Cambo first thing Monday as I really need the issue resolved and a working lens back by June 13 at the latest.

    By the way, the lens has a slight play in the helical focusing mount or between the mount and the T/S unit. Don't know if that indicates anything but it's there.. Anyway, I'm confident that Cambo will get it sorted out, my experience with their service is excellent.

    Thank you again everybody, I will keep you updated..
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    That lens is, ahem, broken.
    -bob

  39. #39
    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Yes, that's my conclusion too.

    Peter


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    That lens is, ahem, broken.
    -bob
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    The more I think about it, the more I suspect you have an element or lens group out of centre.
    Keen to hear what Rodenstock have to say about it.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    I'm thinking something along those lines as well.
    Since the lens is practically brand new I'm looking to simply get it replaced.

    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    The more I think about it, the more I suspect you have an element or lens group out of centre.
    Keen to hear what Rodenstock have to say about it.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    I suspect you have an element or lens group out of centre.

    my thoughts exactly, have it fixed or replaced

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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Ok, made a series of tests this morning and it has nothing to do with flare from the compendium. The issue is still there if I just shade the lens with a piece of cardboard.

    BUT if I cover up the lens barrel the issue is gone...! So it seems there is a light leak somewhere in the lens barrel it self, maybe the shutter or somewhere in between.

    Anyway, the lens is now on it's way to Cambo.

    I'll give you an update when I know more.

    Peter
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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Latest news:

    Cambo has checked the lens and found nothing wrong. According to their technician the issue is caused by a light leak in the camera itself causing light to hit the rear element of the lens.
    Since the rear elements of my various lenses of course are different and protrudes differently into the camera the issue is only visible with the Rodie 40.
    When I covered the lens barrel in my tests I must also have shaded the light leak in the camera.

    So my camera is on its way back to Cambo for check up and my lens plus a loaner camera is on the way back to me :-)

    More info when everything is solved. But so far excellent service from Cambo...!
    Last edited by Pemihan; 5th June 2014 at 04:27.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Good new, bad news, glad to see them handling it quick and fast. Personally I am happy for you the lens is OK as I would much rather them be not opening up a Rod 40mm. It more than likely would have to go Rodenstock anyway.


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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Yes, if the issue was with the lens itself it would have to go to Rodenstock, as it is now it is on the way back to me :-)
    The camera is still under warranty, so if they can't fix it I assume I will just get a replacement.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Hi

    I had a similar experance - A 28 Rodenstock - Renne had to send it back to Rodenstock - mine was soft on one side. Now good.

    Also I knocked my 70 once and that had to go back . Got that back in perfect shape also.

    Both times Renee was the best. Both turned around in about one week or so. Dave at C1 Fed Ex it to Holland and Renee dropped shipped it back to me.

    Sh*t happens but C1 + Cambo = great!!

    Thanks

    Phil
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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Cambo got my camera today and have already confirmed and located the light leak in the camera and am in the process of fixing it. Tomorrow the camera goes back to me.

    Excellent and very quick service from Cambo.
    Peter
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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Final update: Got my camera back earlier this week and everything seems fine now :-)
    So the issue was with the camera and not the lens.

    As said excellent and very quick service from Cambo.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodenstock 40hr strange flare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    Final update: Got my camera back earlier this week and everything seems fine now :-)
    So the issue was with the camera and not the lens.

    As said excellent and very quick service from Cambo.
    Peter,

    Congratulations and thanks for sharing your experience.

    Pramote

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