H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

[Drennon]

I posted a while back about my considering making the jump from film to medium format digital, with a particular interest in the IQ260. Thanks to the folks around here that shared your thoughts and experience, it was very helpful to me.

Fast forward several weeks later, having rented the IQ260 with a Phase 645AFD+ body, and though the camera clearly produces stunning results, I wasn't thrilled with the body itself. If Phase/Mamiya could revamp the body I would be much more interested in moving towards their systems.

That said, I've been on the lookout for a used Hasselblad H4D-60 as I believe that camera would appeal to me more ergonomically, and I've seen them used turning up at lower prices than used IQ260 systems. Add to that the offering of very nice leaf shutter lenses and the system seems like a good one to consider. I realize long exposure won't be an option, but I've decided to let that go at this point. Can anyone out there who has used/owned the H4D-60 tell me what you think of it as compares to the IQ260/IQ160 and other full frame offerings out in the MF digital world?

Another factor I am considering is the health of Hasselblad as a whole. I recently read that Ventizz Capital may be ditching Hasselblad. I know the H-system is established, but with the death of the V-system and the recent Lunar/Steller/HV blunders, I wonder if by buying an H4D-60 I would be buying into a system that won't have a company supporting it soon (thinking Contax 645 here).

So clearly I am calculating my next move as much as I can before dropping big $$$, but I also know you gotta push your chips in somewhere at sometime and start taking pictures with what you got. The following was written some time ago that was a good reminder for me about how you have to just pick something a run with it in constantly evolving world of improving equipment. My favorite part about digital photography is below:

"The potential is always remarkable. But the medium never settles. Each year there is a better camera to buy and new software to download. The user never has time to become comfortable with the tool. Consequently too much of the work is merely about the technology. The HDR and QTVR fads are good examples. Instead of focusing on the subject, users obsess over RAW conversion, Photoshop plug-ins, and on and on. For good work to develop the technology needs to become as stable and functional as a typewriter."

- Toy Fatigue, Alec Soth

http://http://alecsothblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/26/toy-fatigue/

All that to say...H4D-60: Good move, bad move? What do you all think?

Best,

David Drennon

 

[Thomas Fallon]

If you have to ask the question, then I think you have your answer. I would not count on the company. You are thinking Contax. I am thinking Kodak.

 

[JorisV]

Nobody forces you to upgrade each year to the latest and greatest, you do it to yourself…

And regarding Hasselblad, I am sure if you go back 5 years in time you will read exactly the same thing in these threads….

Worst case somebody will always be willing to pick up support of the existing products and customers, like Leica did with Sinar.

 

[jerome_m]

The H camera and lenses are very nice indeed. The only reason you see against them appear to be the health of the company.
I don't think that Hasselblad is going to stop producing H cameras soon. And if they did, what would be the problem? You would still have the camera and lenses and the used market can still satisfy your needs for a long time. Service is not going to be discontinued from one day to the next either.

If you want to limit possible losses, you may get a H4D-50 instead of the H4D-60, it is much cheaper and the difference in format in small enough to be of little consequence.

 

[gazwas]

Always waiting for the next best thing???????

Who announced CMOS MFD to us first?

 

[shlomi]

I've considered Hasselblad several times, but the health of the company stopped me every time.
There is no doubt that Phase is the market leader by a large margin.
Phase is about to release a totally redesigned body at the end of this year, so your reservations about the body might be resolved.
I think Hasselblad also has an advantage in glass, which will not change any time soon.
However Phase backs have huge advantages at this time, not just in long exposures, but also in user interface, computer interface, and general image quality. The much better business results of Phase allowed them to open a large gap vs. Hasselblad.
I also disliked very much Hasselblad's anti consumer attitude.
However, if I were shooting people open aperture outside, then the Hasselblad body and lenses advantage would be too important and I would buy a Hasselblad.

 

[tjv]

Regarding your quote, the last I heard Alec Soth still uses an H3DII-50, although he might have been comped or bought an upgrade by now. What he says in conversation with Toy is absolutely correct, IMHO. It's all about getting to know your tools, good ideas and developing a personal voice. That said, good tools make a difference and in that regard an H4D-60 is an amazing camera. I'd say jump on the good ship Hasselblad and don't look back...

 

[tjv]

With all due respect, and IMHO, there is no large gap between Phase and 'Blad with regards to general image quality or customer service. There are countless stories, good and bad, praising or deriding both brands. For what it's worth, my own experience suggests that 'Blad are very easy to deal with – in terms of servicing my 949 scanner, not a back mind you. This may differ from country to country.

In terms of the mythical new Phase body, well, I'll believe it when I see it. No one should ever buy something of this value on a promised new feature, etc. How long did it take Phase to implement USB 3? How long did 'Blad take to release their external battery pack for using the back on a tech cam (did they ever?) Again, good and bad points on both sides of the fence. Both make brilliant products with different strengths and weaknesses, I think that's really the long and short of it if you want to shoot solely with an SLR style camera. If you're a tech cam user and buying from the ground up, than it's generally Phase all the way. They have way better technology in that regard.

Again, I mean no disrespect to your opinion here. We all conduct our own tests and come to our own conclusions and I guess that's why it's best to try before you buy.

I've considered Hasselblad several times, but the health of the company stopped me every time.
There is no doubt that Phase is the market leader by a large margin.
Phase is about to release a totally redesigned body at the end of this year, so your reservations about the body might be resolved.
I think Hasselblad also has an advantage in glass, which will not change any time soon.
However Phase backs have huge advantages at this time, not just in long exposures, but also in user interface, computer interface, and general image quality. The much better business results of Phase allowed them to open a large gap vs. Hasselblad.
I also disliked very much Hasselblad's anti consumer attitude.
However, if I were shooting people open aperture outside, then the Hasselblad body and lenses advantage would be too important and I would buy a Hasselblad.

 

[alajuela]

Hi
I think Fuji will end up owning Hasselblad. They already make the lens, designed the bodies, - have a long and storied history in MF, and should be flush with capital due to the success of the X cameras

Thanks

Phil

 

[jerome_m]

There is no doubt that Phase is the market leader by a large margin.

Really? At least where I live it is still easier to rent Hasselblad than Phase One. Rental makes a good portion of the MF market.

Does anyone have actual figures? As long as we don't there is no way to know which company owns a larger size of the market.

 

[Mammy645]

Photokina is around the corner, I'd wait till that was over before deciding anything if I were you. It should give you a better idea where these companies are heading.

 

[gazwas]

I've considered Hasselblad several times, but the health of the company stopped me every time. There is no doubt that Phase is the market leader by a large margin.

There is no evidence that Hasselblad is in any worse shape that Phase One judging by both companies recent financial activities involving venture capital firms. Just because Phase has a big presence on this forum which often exists in the bubble of the US market due to very active dealers participation does not reflect Hasselblad's market in Asia or the rest of the world.

Phase is about to release a totally redesigned body at the end of this year, so your reservations about the body might be resolved.

That VERY old gem has been banding about these forums for so long it makes Phase look stupid IMO and a reason not to buy their system rather than buy it. HB may have kept us waiting for a battery for tech camera support and making users wait for firmware upgrades for LCD screen doubling resolution but they never MADE UP sorties of ALL NEW, designed from the ground up cameras that boiled down to marketing BS. When they did deliver a new camera last year, what did P1 finally unveil...... the all new and improved but actually just the same and equally crappy DF+.

However Phase backs have huge advantages at this time, not just in long exposures, but also in user interface, computer interface, and general image quality.

Phase have a better screen and USB3 but image quality - you've been drinking the kool aid my friend. HB and P1 cameras are capable of delivering equally stunning results - neither is better than the other. As as Phase user since 1999, I actually prefer the look out of camera of the Hasselblad files as they are less pumped up compare to the default processing Phase add to their RAW files, however both can be processed to taste.

I also disliked very much Hasselblad's anti consumer attitude.

Is that your experience from buying one or having problems? My understanding is Phase doesn't really want to know you as an end user and will always direct you towards a dealer to sort out problems. You are than at the dealers mercy so unless you've found a good one - good luck to you and your wallet.

When spending big money on a MFD camera, the only way to decide which camera/system is better is to shoot both of them rather than taking bias opinions on forums as gospel.

I think both companies will deliver something good at Photokina this year so lets just hope its better screens/UI for HB and that bloody camera from P1.:watch:

 

[fotografz]

I posted a while back about my considering making the jump from film to medium format digital, with a particular interest in the IQ260. Thanks to the folks around here that shared your thoughts and experience, it was very helpful to me.

Fast forward several weeks later, having rented the IQ260 with a Phase 645AFD+ body, and though the camera clearly produces stunning results, I wasn't thrilled with the body itself. If Phase/Mamiya could revamp the body I would be much more interested in moving towards their systems.

That said, I've been on the lookout for a used Hasselblad H4D-60 as I believe that camera would appeal to me more ergonomically, and I've seen them used turning up at lower prices than used IQ260 systems. Add to that the offering of very nice leaf shutter lenses and the system seems like a good one to consider. I realize long exposure won't be an option, but I've decided to let that go at this point. Can anyone out there who has used/owned the H4D-60 tell me what you think of it as compares to the IQ260/IQ160 and other full frame offerings out in the MF digital world?

Another factor I am considering is the health of Hasselblad as a whole. I recently read that Ventizz Capital may be ditching Hasselblad. I know the H-system is established, but with the death of the V-system and the recent Lunar/Steller/HV blunders, I wonder if by buying an H4D-60 I would be buying into a system that won't have a company supporting it soon (thinking Contax 645 here).

So clearly I am calculating my next move as much as I can before dropping big $$$, but I also know you gotta push your chips in somewhere at sometime and start taking pictures with what you got. The following was written some time ago that was a good reminder for me about how you have to just pick something a run with it in constantly evolving world of improving equipment. My favorite part about digital photography is below:

"The potential is always remarkable. But the medium never settles. Each year there is a better camera to buy and new software to download. The user never has time to become comfortable with the tool. Consequently too much of the work is merely about the technology. The HDR and QTVR fads are good examples. Instead of focusing on the subject, users obsess over RAW conversion, Photoshop plug-ins, and on and on. For good work to develop the technology needs to become as stable and functional as a typewriter."

- Toy Fatigue, Alec Soth

http://http://alecsothblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/26/toy-fatigue/

All that to say...H4D-60: Good move, bad move? What do you all think?

Best,

David Drennon

Hi David,

I'm a long time Hasselblad V and H user. Nine different H cameras spanning many years of photography … mostly commercial (studio and location), and portraits … but I did use them for some higher end weddings also.

I no longer have any Hassey gear, but not for any other reason than I've semi-retired. I now use a Leica S2P for what paid work I still do, and most of my personal work.

I miss the H a lot. It is a great system that constantly was improved, and is still being improved. The newer H lenses are some of the best around, specifically the HC-50/3.5-II is second to none, the HC-100/2.2 has no counterpart from anyone, and so on.

What can't be properly conveyed is the relationship of camera to user … it has to be experienced, and for more than just a few days. How the interface aids you, and how the features are real advantages that you use at every shoot, is part of the "hidden value" of the H system.

I had an H4D/40 and H4D/60 up until I semi-retired (we never really fully retire do we? : -). The 60 is fantastic, and the H4 has True Focus which IMO is the best off-center, focus recompose AF solution from anyone including 35mm DSLRs … something that actually impacts your creative approach since you can place the focus anywhere in the frame.

The IQ from the 50 (Kodak) is different from the 60 (Dalsa) … so it isn't just choosing one that may be cheaper (depending on what and how you shoot).

Prior to the decision to semi-retire, I actually had placed an order for the H5D/200 Multi-Shot. I once had a H2F with a CF39/Multi-Shot, and even the H4D/60 couldn't equal the color fidelity and detail when it was shot in M/S. I opted for the H4D/60 to replace it because it got reasonably close in one shot. However the H5D/200 is another story altogether.

BTW, I understand the worry over the company's health … I was a victim of the Contax bail-out … but you know what? There are a ton of Contax 645 users still out there all these years later.

- Marc

 

[Ken_R]

While some people worry about the health of Hasselblad as a company others are actually using H cameras and lenses to continuously make great images.

Bottom line, don't worry about it. Get the gear that you like best.

Regarding specific recommendations IMHO if you did not like the Phase/Mamiya body but like the H body then try a Phase IQ back in H mount and a H body (H1/H2 or H4x) and lenses.

That was my choice (IQ160 and H1) and love it.

Talk to a dealer (in my case it was DT in NYC) and they should be able to help out a lot.

 

[shlomi]

There is no evidence that Hasselblad is in any worse shape that Phase One judging by both companies recent financial activities involving venture capital firms. Just because Phase has a big presence on this forum which often exists in the bubble of the US market due to very active dealers participation does not reflect Hasselblad's market in Asia or the rest of the world.

I think there's plenty of evidence. Hasselblad is passed around from owner to owner like a bad penny. Phase is constantly churning new products that are significantly better every time - that takes a lot of money in R&D budgets.

That VERY old gem has been banding about these forums for so long it makes Phase look stupid IMO and a reason not to buy their system rather than buy it. HB may have kept us waiting for a battery for tech camera support and making users wait for firmware upgrades for LCD screen doubling resolution but they never MADE UP sorties of ALL NEW, designed from the ground up cameras that boiled down to marketing BS. When they did deliver a new camera last year, what did P1 finally unveil...... the all new and improved but actually just the same and equally crappy DF+.

I have a source inside the company who assured me that the body will be out by the end of this year. Let's talk again on Christmas and see if I am mistaken or not.

Phase have a better screen and USB3 but image quality - you've been drinking the kool aid my friend. HB and P1 cameras are capable of delivering equally stunning results - neither is better than the other. As as Phase user since 1999, I actually prefer the look out of camera of the Hasselblad files as they are less pumped up compare to the default processing Phase add to their RAW files, however both can be processed to taste.

Seems maybe you haven't worked with the new generation backs from Phase. They are very different from the previous generation - which was on the same level as Hasselblad. The tethering - FW or USB - is totally different, and much better. As far as IQ, I can see a clear difference between the last gen to the one before last.

fotografz (on your side) just said this: The IQ from the 50 (Kodak) is different from the 60 (Dalsa) … so it isn't just choosing one that may be cheaper (depending on what and how you shoot).

So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?

Is that your experience from buying one or having problems? My understanding is Phase doesn't really want to know you as an end user and will always direct you towards a dealer to sort out problems. You are than at the dealers mercy so unless you've found a good one - good luck to you and your wallet.

By anti consumer I did not mean the dealer attitude (don't get me started), but closing the system to any external building blocks, and forcing the user to change body and back at the same time. It seems a large segment of the market did not appreciate that. And what about the ridiculous Hasselblad branded trash cameras that appeared inexplicably? That did not help build brand confidence.

 

[Giorgio]

Long time user of Hasselblad cameras both film and digital.
I have been using an H4D 60 lately, this is a camera that I will use till it stops functioning. I wouldn't trade, sell or let this camera out of my site for any reason.
Hey, that's just my opinion.

The H system works well for me. I suggest that you look at any camera that you are considering as a part of a system because they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[lance_schad]

Have you considered either the PhaseOne IQ160/260 or Credo 60 with Value Added Warranty or Gold Warranty package which would allow you to perform a mount swap for one time during the term of the extended warranty at no charge?

You could start with with either the DF+ or H platform and change as developments arise.

Also Mamiya Leaf has begun a new Credo 60 Promo today which gives you an instant savings of $6,500 off the Credo 60/DF+ Kit for $24,995 or $20,995 back only in any mount (add Gold Warranty Package for $2,600 3yrs).

We should have additional details up on our website soon.

Lance

 

[funkysmurf]

Another factor I am considering is the health of Hasselblad as a whole. I recently read that Ventizz Capital may be ditching Hasselblad.

In February this year, Silverfleet Capital acquired a 60% majority stake in Phase One, so this sort of stuff is always open to interpretation and speculation.

I wouldn't worry about it too much as a potential Hasselblad customer.

 

[tjv]

The H4/5D-40 is every bit as good in terms of IQ as the Phase equivalent, as is its 60mpx big brother. The 50mpx sensor is no slouch either and Phase don't have a back, and never have had, that implements this sensor. To say it's not up to Phase standards is very misleading and I don't think that is what Marc was saying.

Seems maybe you haven't worked with the new generation backs from Phase. They are very different from the previous generation - which was on the same level as Hasselblad. The tethering - FW or USB - is totally different, and much better. As far as IQ, I can see a clear difference between the last gen to the one before last.

fotografz (on your side) just said this: The IQ from the 50 (Kodak) is different from the 60 (Dalsa) … so it isn't just choosing one that may be cheaper (depending on what and how you shoot).

So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?

 

[gazwas]

Can I start off saying this is not anti Phase One as I think their equipment is top notch. I'm offering a balanced opinion to what I feel is a bias reply above.

I think there's plenty of evidence. Hasselblad is passed around from owner to owner like a bad penny.

Phase One, the employee owned company that just sold a 60% stake in its business to a venture capital firm. Such firms usually are only interested in milking profits. Why did Phase sell if things are so amazingly rosy?? I'm not saying the move will be a failure or the compay has not made great profits however both are equally a concern when investing MFD levels of money.

Phase is constantly churning new products that are significantly better every time - that takes a lot of money in R&D budgets.

HB had a great camera with lots of great features from the go and still have a much better camera that can focus more accurately, faster to operate (shutter lag on the Mamiya used to be shocking), much better camera/lens profiles, leaf shutters in all their lenses............ and the list goes on. Horse for courses as what Phase lacks, HB more than makes up for and vise versa.

I have a source inside the company who assured me that the body will be out by the end of this year. Let's talk again on Christmas and see if I am mistaken or not.

Is that the camera that was promised for the end of the year from the MD of Phase One back in 2011? When it comes it will be amazing but looooooong over due! Until it does arrive, hinging your purchase decision on a rumour that has been proved embarrassingly incorrect for so many years is questionable?

Seems maybe you haven't worked with the new generation backs from Phase. They are very different from the previous generation - which was on the same level as Hasselblad. The tethering - FW or USB - is totally different, and much better. As far as IQ, I can see a clear difference between the last gen to the one before last.

I've used Phase One since the original one shot Lightphase digital back up to IQ1 generation of chips so I've used a few. The Dalsa chips are nice but I've also used the H4D-50 and thought that chip was equally as good as the Phase 60Mpix chip. I personally think the 50Mpix chip in the HB produces beautiful files and very much the 60Mpix P1 camera's equivalent.

So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?

Based on this reply, are you saying you've actually shot the HB with 40Mpix and 50Mpix chips or just basing it on what you think is the case?

By anti consumer I did not mean the dealer attitude (don't get me started), but closing the system to any external building blocks, and forcing the user to change body and back at the same time. It seems a large segment of the market did not appreciate that.

- You can use a modern Phase back on a HB camera with HB lenses - how is that closed?

- Can I use a HB back on a Phase Camera (not that I'd want too)?

HB backs are designed to work with with body for focus info, lens profiles etc. Without tight integration that would not be possible. Last time I looked, upgrade prices for P1 and HB were very similar so not sure of the whole cost to change argument. Lots of people moaned about being locked in to begin with before they realised the benefits but I don't hear people complain now (HB users speak up)?

And what about the ridiculous Hasselblad branded trash cameras that appeared inexplicably? That did not help build brand confidence.

Can't say it bothers me that much and as I don't buy that sort of camera - why should it? If they can sell them, whats wrong with making cash for future development?