Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 81

Thread: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

  1. #1
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like

    H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    I posted a while back about my considering making the jump from film to medium format digital, with a particular interest in the IQ260. Thanks to the folks around here that shared your thoughts and experience, it was very helpful to me.

    Fast forward several weeks later, having rented the IQ260 with a Phase 645AFD+ body, and though the camera clearly produces stunning results, I wasn't thrilled with the body itself. If Phase/Mamiya could revamp the body I would be much more interested in moving towards their systems.

    That said, I've been on the lookout for a used Hasselblad H4D-60 as I believe that camera would appeal to me more ergonomically, and I've seen them used turning up at lower prices than used IQ260 systems. Add to that the offering of very nice leaf shutter lenses and the system seems like a good one to consider. I realize long exposure won't be an option, but I've decided to let that go at this point. Can anyone out there who has used/owned the H4D-60 tell me what you think of it as compares to the IQ260/IQ160 and other full frame offerings out in the MF digital world?

    Another factor I am considering is the health of Hasselblad as a whole. I recently read that Ventizz Capital may be ditching Hasselblad. I know the H-system is established, but with the death of the V-system and the recent Lunar/Steller/HV blunders, I wonder if by buying an H4D-60 I would be buying into a system that won't have a company supporting it soon (thinking Contax 645 here).

    So clearly I am calculating my next move as much as I can before dropping big $$$, but I also know you gotta push your chips in somewhere at sometime and start taking pictures with what you got. The following was written some time ago that was a good reminder for me about how you have to just pick something a run with it in constantly evolving world of improving equipment. My favorite part about digital photography is below:

    "The potential is always remarkable. But the medium never settles. Each year there is a better camera to buy and new software to download. The user never has time to become comfortable with the tool. Consequently too much of the work is merely about the technology. The HDR and QTVR fads are good examples. Instead of focusing on the subject, users obsess over RAW conversion, Photoshop plug-ins, and on and on. For good work to develop the technology needs to become as stable and functional as a typewriter."

    - Toy Fatigue, Alec Soth

    http://http://alecsothblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/26/toy-fatigue/

    All that to say...H4D-60: Good move, bad move? What do you all think?

    Best,

    David Drennon

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Portland, Maine
    Posts
    94
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    If you have to ask the question, then I think you have your answer. I would not count on the company. You are thinking Contax. I am thinking Kodak.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    191
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Nobody forces you to upgrade each year to the latest and greatest, you do it to yourself…

    And regarding Hasselblad, I am sure if you go back 5 years in time you will read exactly the same thing in these threads….

    Worst case somebody will always be willing to pick up support of the existing products and customers, like Leica did with Sinar.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    598
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    The H camera and lenses are very nice indeed. The only reason you see against them appear to be the health of the company.
    I don't think that Hasselblad is going to stop producing H cameras soon. And if they did, what would be the problem? You would still have the camera and lenses and the used market can still satisfy your needs for a long time. Service is not going to be discontinued from one day to the next either.

    If you want to limit possible losses, you may get a H4D-50 instead of the H4D-60, it is much cheaper and the difference in format in small enough to be of little consequence.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Always waiting for the next best thing???????

    Who announced CMOS MFD to us first?

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    I've considered Hasselblad several times, but the health of the company stopped me every time.
    There is no doubt that Phase is the market leader by a large margin.
    Phase is about to release a totally redesigned body at the end of this year, so your reservations about the body might be resolved.
    I think Hasselblad also has an advantage in glass, which will not change any time soon.
    However Phase backs have huge advantages at this time, not just in long exposures, but also in user interface, computer interface, and general image quality. The much better business results of Phase allowed them to open a large gap vs. Hasselblad.
    I also disliked very much Hasselblad's anti consumer attitude.
    However, if I were shooting people open aperture outside, then the Hasselblad body and lenses advantage would be too important and I would buy a Hasselblad.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,587
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Regarding your quote, the last I heard Alec Soth still uses an H3DII-50, although he might have been comped or bought an upgrade by now. What he says in conversation with Toy is absolutely correct, IMHO. It's all about getting to know your tools, good ideas and developing a personal voice. That said, good tools make a difference and in that regard an H4D-60 is an amazing camera. I'd say jump on the good ship Hasselblad and don't look back...
    Last edited by tjv; 1st June 2014 at 00:26.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,587
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    With all due respect, and IMHO, there is no large gap between Phase and 'Blad with regards to general image quality or customer service. There are countless stories, good and bad, praising or deriding both brands. For what it's worth, my own experience suggests that 'Blad are very easy to deal with in terms of servicing my 949 scanner, not a back mind you. This may differ from country to country.

    In terms of the mythical new Phase body, well, I'll believe it when I see it. No one should ever buy something of this value on a promised new feature, etc. How long did it take Phase to implement USB 3? How long did 'Blad take to release their external battery pack for using the back on a tech cam (did they ever?) Again, good and bad points on both sides of the fence. Both make brilliant products with different strengths and weaknesses, I think that's really the long and short of it if you want to shoot solely with an SLR style camera. If you're a tech cam user and buying from the ground up, than it's generally Phase all the way. They have way better technology in that regard.

    Again, I mean no disrespect to your opinion here. We all conduct our own tests and come to our own conclusions and I guess that's why it's best to try before you buy.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I've considered Hasselblad several times, but the health of the company stopped me every time.
    There is no doubt that Phase is the market leader by a large margin.
    Phase is about to release a totally redesigned body at the end of this year, so your reservations about the body might be resolved.
    I think Hasselblad also has an advantage in glass, which will not change any time soon.
    However Phase backs have huge advantages at this time, not just in long exposures, but also in user interface, computer interface, and general image quality. The much better business results of Phase allowed them to open a large gap vs. Hasselblad.
    I also disliked very much Hasselblad's anti consumer attitude.
    However, if I were shooting people open aperture outside, then the Hasselblad body and lenses advantage would be too important and I would buy a Hasselblad.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #9
    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Shanghai / Miami
    Posts
    552
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    124

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Hi
    I think Fuji will end up owning Hasselblad. They already make the lens, designed the bodies, - have a long and storied history in MF, and should be flush with capital due to the success of the X cameras

    Thanks

    Phil
    Philip
    www.pg-pg.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    598
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    There is no doubt that Phase is the market leader by a large margin.
    Really? At least where I live it is still easier to rent Hasselblad than Phase One. Rental makes a good portion of the MF market.

    Does anyone have actual figures? As long as we don't there is no way to know which company owns a larger size of the market.

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    212
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Photokina is around the corner, I'd wait till that was over before deciding anything if I were you. It should give you a better idea where these companies are heading.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I've considered Hasselblad several times, but the health of the company stopped me every time. There is no doubt that Phase is the market leader by a large margin.
    There is no evidence that Hasselblad is in any worse shape that Phase One judging by both companies recent financial activities involving venture capital firms. Just because Phase has a big presence on this forum which often exists in the bubble of the US market due to very active dealers participation does not reflect Hasselblad's market in Asia or the rest of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    Phase is about to release a totally redesigned body at the end of this year, so your reservations about the body might be resolved.
    That VERY old gem has been banding about these forums for so long it makes Phase look stupid IMO and a reason not to buy their system rather than buy it. HB may have kept us waiting for a battery for tech camera support and making users wait for firmware upgrades for LCD screen doubling resolution but they never MADE UP sorties of ALL NEW, designed from the ground up cameras that boiled down to marketing BS. When they did deliver a new camera last year, what did P1 finally unveil...... the all new and improved but actually just the same and equally crappy DF+.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    However Phase backs have huge advantages at this time, not just in long exposures, but also in user interface, computer interface, and general image quality.
    Phase have a better screen and USB3 but image quality - you've been drinking the kool aid my friend. HB and P1 cameras are capable of delivering equally stunning results - neither is better than the other. As as Phase user since 1999, I actually prefer the look out of camera of the Hasselblad files as they are less pumped up compare to the default processing Phase add to their RAW files, however both can be processed to taste.


    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I also disliked very much Hasselblad's anti consumer attitude.
    Is that your experience from buying one or having problems? My understanding is Phase doesn't really want to know you as an end user and will always direct you towards a dealer to sort out problems. You are than at the dealers mercy so unless you've found a good one - good luck to you and your wallet.

    When spending big money on a MFD camera, the only way to decide which camera/system is better is to shoot both of them rather than taking bias opinions on forums as gospel.

    I think both companies will deliver something good at Photokina this year so lets just hope its better screens/UI for HB and that bloody camera from P1.
    Likes 5 Member(s) liked this post

  13. #13
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Drennon View Post
    I posted a while back about my considering making the jump from film to medium format digital, with a particular interest in the IQ260. Thanks to the folks around here that shared your thoughts and experience, it was very helpful to me.

    Fast forward several weeks later, having rented the IQ260 with a Phase 645AFD+ body, and though the camera clearly produces stunning results, I wasn't thrilled with the body itself. If Phase/Mamiya could revamp the body I would be much more interested in moving towards their systems.

    That said, I've been on the lookout for a used Hasselblad H4D-60 as I believe that camera would appeal to me more ergonomically, and I've seen them used turning up at lower prices than used IQ260 systems. Add to that the offering of very nice leaf shutter lenses and the system seems like a good one to consider. I realize long exposure won't be an option, but I've decided to let that go at this point. Can anyone out there who has used/owned the H4D-60 tell me what you think of it as compares to the IQ260/IQ160 and other full frame offerings out in the MF digital world?

    Another factor I am considering is the health of Hasselblad as a whole. I recently read that Ventizz Capital may be ditching Hasselblad. I know the H-system is established, but with the death of the V-system and the recent Lunar/Steller/HV blunders, I wonder if by buying an H4D-60 I would be buying into a system that won't have a company supporting it soon (thinking Contax 645 here).

    So clearly I am calculating my next move as much as I can before dropping big $$$, but I also know you gotta push your chips in somewhere at sometime and start taking pictures with what you got. The following was written some time ago that was a good reminder for me about how you have to just pick something a run with it in constantly evolving world of improving equipment. My favorite part about digital photography is below:

    "The potential is always remarkable. But the medium never settles. Each year there is a better camera to buy and new software to download. The user never has time to become comfortable with the tool. Consequently too much of the work is merely about the technology. The HDR and QTVR fads are good examples. Instead of focusing on the subject, users obsess over RAW conversion, Photoshop plug-ins, and on and on. For good work to develop the technology needs to become as stable and functional as a typewriter."

    - Toy Fatigue, Alec Soth

    http://http://alecsothblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/26/toy-fatigue/

    All that to say...H4D-60: Good move, bad move? What do you all think?

    Best,

    David Drennon
    Hi David,

    I'm a long time Hasselblad V and H user. Nine different H cameras spanning many years of photography mostly commercial (studio and location), and portraits but I did use them for some higher end weddings also.

    I no longer have any Hassey gear, but not for any other reason than I've semi-retired. I now use a Leica S2P for what paid work I still do, and most of my personal work.

    I miss the H a lot. It is a great system that constantly was improved, and is still being improved. The newer H lenses are some of the best around, specifically the HC-50/3.5-II is second to none, the HC-100/2.2 has no counterpart from anyone, and so on.

    What can't be properly conveyed is the relationship of camera to user it has to be experienced, and for more than just a few days. How the interface aids you, and how the features are real advantages that you use at every shoot, is part of the "hidden value" of the H system.

    I had an H4D/40 and H4D/60 up until I semi-retired (we never really fully retire do we? : -). The 60 is fantastic, and the H4 has True Focus which IMO is the best off-center, focus recompose AF solution from anyone including 35mm DSLRs something that actually impacts your creative approach since you can place the focus anywhere in the frame.

    The IQ from the 50 (Kodak) is different from the 60 (Dalsa) so it isn't just choosing one that may be cheaper (depending on what and how you shoot).

    Prior to the decision to semi-retire, I actually had placed an order for the H5D/200 Multi-Shot. I once had a H2F with a CF39/Multi-Shot, and even the H4D/60 couldn't equal the color fidelity and detail when it was shot in M/S. I opted for the H4D/60 to replace it because it got reasonably close in one shot. However the H5D/200 is another story altogether.

    BTW, I understand the worry over the company's health I was a victim of the Contax bail-out but you know what? There are a ton of Contax 645 users still out there all these years later.

    - Marc

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    398
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    While some people worry about the health of Hasselblad as a company others are actually using H cameras and lenses to continuously make great images.

    Bottom line, don't worry about it. Get the gear that you like best.

    Regarding specific recommendations IMHO if you did not like the Phase/Mamiya body but like the H body then try a Phase IQ back in H mount and a H body (H1/H2 or H4x) and lenses.

    That was my choice (IQ160 and H1) and love it.

    Talk to a dealer (in my case it was DT in NYC) and they should be able to help out a lot.
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    There is no evidence that Hasselblad is in any worse shape that Phase One judging by both companies recent financial activities involving venture capital firms. Just because Phase has a big presence on this forum which often exists in the bubble of the US market due to very active dealers participation does not reflect Hasselblad's market in Asia or the rest of the world.
    I think there's plenty of evidence. Hasselblad is passed around from owner to owner like a bad penny. Phase is constantly churning new products that are significantly better every time - that takes a lot of money in R&D budgets.


    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    That VERY old gem has been banding about these forums for so long it makes Phase look stupid IMO and a reason not to buy their system rather than buy it. HB may have kept us waiting for a battery for tech camera support and making users wait for firmware upgrades for LCD screen doubling resolution but they never MADE UP sorties of ALL NEW, designed from the ground up cameras that boiled down to marketing BS. When they did deliver a new camera last year, what did P1 finally unveil...... the all new and improved but actually just the same and equally crappy DF+.
    I have a source inside the company who assured me that the body will be out by the end of this year. Let's talk again on Christmas and see if I am mistaken or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Phase have a better screen and USB3 but image quality - you've been drinking the kool aid my friend. HB and P1 cameras are capable of delivering equally stunning results - neither is better than the other. As as Phase user since 1999, I actually prefer the look out of camera of the Hasselblad files as they are less pumped up compare to the default processing Phase add to their RAW files, however both can be processed to taste.
    Seems maybe you haven't worked with the new generation backs from Phase. They are very different from the previous generation - which was on the same level as Hasselblad. The tethering - FW or USB - is totally different, and much better. As far as IQ, I can see a clear difference between the last gen to the one before last.

    fotografz (on your side) just said this: The IQ from the 50 (Kodak) is different from the 60 (Dalsa) so it isn't just choosing one that may be cheaper (depending on what and how you shoot).

    So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Is that your experience from buying one or having problems? My understanding is Phase doesn't really want to know you as an end user and will always direct you towards a dealer to sort out problems. You are than at the dealers mercy so unless you've found a good one - good luck to you and your wallet.
    By anti consumer I did not mean the dealer attitude (don't get me started), but closing the system to any external building blocks, and forcing the user to change body and back at the same time. It seems a large segment of the market did not appreciate that. And what about the ridiculous Hasselblad branded trash cameras that appeared inexplicably? That did not help build brand confidence.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    276
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Long time user of Hasselblad cameras both film and digital.
    I have been using an H4D 60 lately, this is a camera that I will use till it stops functioning. I wouldn't trade, sell or let this camera out of my site for any reason.
    Hey, that's just my opinion.

    The H system works well for me. I suggest that you look at any camera that you are considering as a part of a system because they all have their strengths and weaknesses.
    Ciao,
    Giorgio Niro
    www.giorgioniro.com

  17. #17
    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Phila./NY
    Posts
    1,146
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Have you considered either the PhaseOne IQ160/260 or Credo 60 with Value Added Warranty or Gold Warranty package which would allow you to perform a mount swap for one time during the term of the extended warranty at no charge?

    You could start with with either the DF+ or H platform and change as developments arise.

    Also Mamiya Leaf has begun a new Credo 60 Promo today which gives you an instant savings of $6,500 off the Credo 60/DF+ Kit for $24,995 or $20,995 back only in any mount (add Gold Warranty Package for $2,600 3yrs).

    We should have additional details up on our website soon.

    Lance
    LANCE SCHAD - Digital Transitions - Phase One,Mamiya | Leaf,Arca-Swiss,Cambo, Profoto
    direct/cell:610-496-5586 office:877-367-8537x224
    http://www.digitaltransitions.com email:[email protected]

  18. #18
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    3
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Drennon View Post
    Another factor I am considering is the health of Hasselblad as a whole. I recently read that Ventizz Capital may be ditching Hasselblad.
    In February this year, Silverfleet Capital acquired a 60% majority stake in Phase One, so this sort of stuff is always open to interpretation and speculation.

    I wouldn't worry about it too much as a potential Hasselblad customer.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,587
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    The H4/5D-40 is every bit as good in terms of IQ as the Phase equivalent, as is its 60mpx big brother. The 50mpx sensor is no slouch either and Phase don't have a back, and never have had, that implements this sensor. To say it's not up to Phase standards is very misleading and I don't think that is what Marc was saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post

    Seems maybe you haven't worked with the new generation backs from Phase. They are very different from the previous generation - which was on the same level as Hasselblad. The tethering - FW or USB - is totally different, and much better. As far as IQ, I can see a clear difference between the last gen to the one before last.

    fotografz (on your side) just said this: The IQ from the 50 (Kodak) is different from the 60 (Dalsa) … so it isn't just choosing one that may be cheaper (depending on what and how you shoot).

    So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Can I start off saying this is not anti Phase One as I think their equipment is top notch. I'm offering a balanced opinion to what I feel is a bias reply above.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I think there's plenty of evidence. Hasselblad is passed around from owner to owner like a bad penny.
    Phase One, the employee owned company that just sold a 60% stake in its business to a venture capital firm. Such firms usually are only interested in milking profits. Why did Phase sell if things are so amazingly rosy?? I'm not saying the move will be a failure or the compay has not made great profits however both are equally a concern when investing MFD levels of money.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    Phase is constantly churning new products that are significantly better every time - that takes a lot of money in R&D budgets.
    HB had a great camera with lots of great features from the go and still have a much better camera that can focus more accurately, faster to operate (shutter lag on the Mamiya used to be shocking), much better camera/lens profiles, leaf shutters in all their lenses............ and the list goes on. Horse for courses as what Phase lacks, HB more than makes up for and vise versa.


    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I have a source inside the company who assured me that the body will be out by the end of this year. Let's talk again on Christmas and see if I am mistaken or not.
    Is that the camera that was promised for the end of the year from the MD of Phase One back in 2011? When it comes it will be amazing but looooooong over due! Until it does arrive, hinging your purchase decision on a rumour that has been proved embarrassingly incorrect for so many years is questionable?


    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    Seems maybe you haven't worked with the new generation backs from Phase. They are very different from the previous generation - which was on the same level as Hasselblad. The tethering - FW or USB - is totally different, and much better. As far as IQ, I can see a clear difference between the last gen to the one before last.
    I've used Phase One since the original one shot Lightphase digital back up to IQ1 generation of chips so I've used a few. The Dalsa chips are nice but I've also used the H4D-50 and thought that chip was equally as good as the Phase 60Mpix chip. I personally think the 50Mpix chip in the HB produces beautiful files and very much the 60Mpix P1 camera's equivalent.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?
    Based on this reply, are you saying you've actually shot the HB with 40Mpix and 50Mpix chips or just basing it on what you think is the case?


    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    By anti consumer I did not mean the dealer attitude (don't get me started), but closing the system to any external building blocks, and forcing the user to change body and back at the same time. It seems a large segment of the market did not appreciate that.
    - You can use a modern Phase back on a HB camera with HB lenses - how is that closed?

    - Can I use a HB back on a Phase Camera (not that I'd want too)?

    HB backs are designed to work with with body for focus info, lens profiles etc. Without tight integration that would not be possible. Last time I looked, upgrade prices for P1 and HB were very similar so not sure of the whole cost to change argument. Lots of people moaned about being locked in to begin with before they realised the benefits but I don't hear people complain now (HB users speak up)?

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    And what about the ridiculous Hasselblad branded trash cameras that appeared inexplicably? That did not help build brand confidence.
    Can't say it bothers me that much and as I don't buy that sort of camera - why should it? If they can sell them, whats wrong with making cash for future development?
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  21. #21
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I think there's plenty of evidence. Hasselblad is passed around from owner to owner like a bad penny. Phase is constantly churning new products that are significantly better every time - that takes a lot of money in R&D budgets.




    I have a source inside the company who assured me that the body will be out by the end of this year. Let's talk again on Christmas and see if I am mistaken or not.



    Seems maybe you haven't worked with the new generation backs from Phase. They are very different from the previous generation - which was on the same level as Hasselblad. The tethering - FW or USB - is totally different, and much better. As far as IQ, I can see a clear difference between the last gen to the one before last.

    fotografz (on your side) just said this: The IQ from the 50 (Kodak) is different from the 60 (Dalsa) so it isn't just choosing one that may be cheaper (depending on what and how you shoot).

    So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?



    By anti consumer I did not mean the dealer attitude (don't get me started), but closing the system to any external building blocks, and forcing the user to change body and back at the same time. It seems a large segment of the market did not appreciate that. And what about the ridiculous Hasselblad branded trash cameras that appeared inexplicably? That did not help build brand confidence.
    Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say, or interpolate them to arrive at some self-serving conclusion of your own.

    The Hasselblad 50 back is stellar, and NOT like the 39 meg Kodak sensors that the two companies once shared. The 50 was a technological advancement over the previous backs, and is a choice which Phase does't offer as was the H4D/40 over the older 31 meg sensors, a 40 meg back which, IMO, out-performed the Phase 40 meg version (high ISO IQ without pixel binning, and longer exposures).

    The 50 sensor is the basis of the Muti-Shot backs including the H5D/200, which stands alone in the industry for color reproduction and detail capture despite wishful thinking propaganda to the contrary.

    The difference between the Hasselblad 50 and 60 lie with the differences between a Kodak sensor and a Dalsa sensor different characteristics which offer choices so it isn't just a price based, but a use based consideration.

    Thanks,

    - Marc

    Oh, BTW, when Hasselblad closed their system I didn't care a twit. Why would I? The only other full featured, supported 645 still in production was the Mamiya camera why would I want that over the H camera?
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  22. #22
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    The 50 sensor is the basis of the Muti-Shot backs including the H5D/200, which stands alone in the industry for color reproduction and detail capture despite wishful thinking propaganda to the contrary.


    Thanks,

    - Marc

    I don't believe we can say stand alone, Marc. Let's not forget the Sinarback multi-shot products, like the SinarBack eXact, which produces the only 16 shot capture sequence from a 50 megapixel sensor, resulting in an uninterpolated raw file in excess of 1GB.



    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  23. #23
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Can I start off saying this is not anti Phase One as I think their equipment is top notch. I'm offering a balanced opinion to what I feel is a bias reply above.



    Phase One, the employee owned company that just sold a 60% stake in its business to a venture capital firm. Such firms usually are only interested in milking profits. Why did Phase sell if things are so amazingly rosy?? I'm not saying the move will be a failure or the compay has not made great profits however both are equally a concern when investing MFD levels of money.

    If investors are only concerned with milking profits, as you put it, then doesn't that imply a company who just invested into Phase One sees promising things in the future? Perhaps. No one can say with certainty. But it appears to me that Phase One has been putting out some excellent products, products that have pretty dramatically advanced the category from a technical perspective, and clearly have the talent for more. Perhaps their technical talent and ambitions outstripped their financial resources. For now, that's how I'm choosing to look at it. It doesn't smell to me of a company that was struggling and needed help to survive.


    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Is that the camera that was promised for the end of the year from the MD of Phase One back in 2011? When it comes it will be amazing but looooooong over due! Until it does arrive, hinging your purchase decision on a rumour that has been proved embarrassingly incorrect for so many years is questionable?

    When did Phase One ever publicly promise a release date for this new camera?


    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post

    - Can I use a HB back on a Phase Camera (not that I'd want too)?

    If Hasselblad made a digital back in Mamiya mount, yes, sure you could. The older Imacon/Hasselblad digital backs with custom interfaces still work with Mamiya/Phase One 645 cameras.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    If investors are only concerned with milking profits, as you put it, then doesn't that imply a company who just invested into Phase One sees promising things in the future? Perhaps. No one can say with certainty. But it appears to me that Phase One has been putting out some excellent products, products that have pretty dramatically advanced the category from a technical perspective, and clearly have the talent for more. Perhaps their technical talent and ambitions outstripped their financial resources. For now, that's how I'm choosing to look at it. It doesn't smell to me of a company that was struggling and needed help to survive.
    Like I said, I'm not saying its a bad thing but you nor I know what will happen so hardly a biases to bash HB.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    When did Phase One ever publicly promise a release date for this new camera?
    You are kidding right - the P1 marketing machine (and dealers) all (did) go on and on about it - STILL nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    If Hasselblad made a digital back in Mamiya mount, yes, sure you could. The older Imacon/Hasselblad digital backs with custom interfaces still work with Mamiya/Phase One 645 cameras.
    Completely missed the point my post - you could employ both systems are closed/open.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Can I start off saying this is not anti Phase One as I think their equipment is top notch. I'm offering a balanced opinion to what I feel is a bias reply above.
    I don't understand why you consider my stand unbalanced. I very clearly conceded that H has a better body and better lenses. I do stand on the point that Phase has better backs. I really didn't foresee such an argument about a point which to me was pretty self evident. Let's agree that they have different backs, and anyone can decide for themselves which are better.


    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Phase One, the employee owned company that just sold a 60% stake in its business to a venture capital firm. Such firms usually are only interested in milking profits. Why did Phase sell if things are so amazingly rosy?? I'm not saying the move will be a failure or the compay has not made great profits however both are equally a concern when investing MFD levels of money.
    I was not aware of that - I don't know everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    HB had a great camera with lots of great features from the go and still have a much better camera that can focus more accurately, faster to operate (shutter lag on the Mamiya used to be shocking), much better camera/lens profiles, leaf shutters in all their lenses............ and the list goes on. Horse for courses as what Phase lacks, HB more than makes up for and vise versa.
    I've conceded all that from the get go.


    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Is that the camera that was promised for the end of the year from the MD of Phase One back in 2011? When it comes it will be amazing but looooooong over due! Until it does arrive, hinging your purchase decision on a rumour that has been proved embarrassingly incorrect for so many years is questionable?
    I've followed that company for the past five years pretty closely. This body was never promised before. They said they are working on it and hope to have it soon. What I've heard now off the record is that it is coming this year. As I said, perhaps I am misinformed, but my estimate is that they are getting to the finish line about now. Also to be sure there was no official announcement yet, so if it doesn't happen you can blame it on me, not on them.


    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Based on this reply, are you saying you've actually shot the HB with 40Mpix and 50Mpix chips or just basing it on what you think is the case?
    I have not. I have used H systems only anecdotally but I've had chances to examine files.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    - You can use a modern Phase back on a HB camera with HB lenses - how is that closed?
    - Can I use a HB back on a Phase Camera (not that I'd want too)?
    HB backs are designed to work with with body for focus info, lens profiles etc. Without tight integration that would not be possible. Last time I looked, upgrade prices for P1 and HB were very similar so not sure of the whole cost to change argument. Lots of people moaned about being locked in to begin with before they realised the benefits but I don't hear people complain now (HB users speak up)?
    I think you know very well what I was talking about. We were all here when H closed their system off. They've opened it up only after losing in court. Until about three months ago H4X was not available without trade-in! You can't really say that the P system is similarly closed, as P makes a point of allowing its users to mix and match in very many combinations. H even put their V system out of compatibility which shows their state of mind - similar to a little company called Apple - many like this mindset, but not all do.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Can't say it bothers me that much and as I don't buy that sort of camera - why should it? If they can sell them, whats wrong with making cash for future development?
    Making a joke of your name is not the end of the world, but it's not the start of a new better one either.
    Last edited by shlomi; 2nd June 2014 at 08:31.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Like I said, I'm not saying its a bad thing but you nor I know what will happen so hardly a biases to bash HB.
    I didn't say you bashed anyone.



    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    You are kidding right - the P1 marketing machine (and dealers) all (did) go on and on about it - STILL nothing.
    There has never been a public announcement of a date for a completely new camera release that I am aware of. Certainly we as dealers have never posted any such information. If I am wrong, please show me.



    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Completely missed the point my post - you could employ both systems are closed/open.
    I understand what your post was about. But you shouldn't post a point that does nothing to support your argument - the fact is yes you can use any digital back made for the mount on a Mamiya/Phase One 645 camera. That includes Phase One, of course, Leaf, of course, Hasselblad - if they made one, and Sinar - who do.

    For the record I've never made a big deal out of closed and open (others have), and today it is mostly a moot point.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  27. #27
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I don't believe we can say stand alone, Marc. Let's not forget the Sinarback multi-shot products, like the SinarBack eXact, which produces the only 16 shot capture sequence from a 50 megapixel sensor, resulting in an uninterpolated raw file in excess of 1GB.



    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Sorry Steve, I forgot that one has to have their lawyer prepare any answer regarding Hasselblad when responding on this forum

    The frame of reference was the Hasselblad verses Phase discussion. I don't think the OP was looking at Sinar but maybe he should?

    - Marc
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  28. #28
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Sorry Steve, I forgot that one has to have their lawyer prepare any answer regarding Hasselblad when responding on this forum

    The frame of reference was the Hasselblad verses Phase discussion. I don't think the OP was looking at Sinar but maybe he should?

    - Marc

    Don't worry Marc, I doubt that legal counsel is required here.

    Just for the sake of clarification since you brought up the multi-shot products. And no, I don't know if the OP should look at Sinar or not, but if he does, it would help if he carried a computer along with him, since tethered capture is the only option for Sinarbacks.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  29. #29
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    One other item I forgot to bring up in my initial post is the proposition that motion cameras (ARRI, RED, Canon C-series) are the future of still photography. In other words, just pull the still you want from a motion file. In my exploration of medium format digital, I have been advised that the way to go is towards something like a RED Epic and do this.

    The thought of photographing this way is pretty unappealing to me, though I'm sure some will go that direction. It seems to me that a medium format digital stills camera will still be able to do things that RED Epic just could not quite do.

  30. #30
    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    807
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Drennon View Post
    One other item I forgot to bring up in my initial post is the proposition that motion cameras (ARRI, RED, Canon C-series) are the future of still photography. In other words, just pull the still you want from a motion file. In my exploration of medium format digital, I have been advised that the way to go is towards something like a RED Epic and do this.

    The thought of photographing this way is pretty unappealing to me, though I'm sure some will go that direction. It seems to me that a medium format digital stills camera will still be able to do things that RED Epic just could not quite do.
    Someone posted a good article on this subject comparing a Red to a Hasselblad h4D-40 ( http://fstoppers.com/hasselblad-vs-red )and the Red was clearly inferior to the MF files..

    Rob

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    I don't understand why you consider my stand unbalanced.
    Mmmm........

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    However Phase backs have huge advantages at this time, not just in long exposures, but also in user interface, computer interface, and general image quality.
    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?
    Have I misunderstood the meaning of your posts as they seem anything but balanced?

  32. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I didn't say you bashed anyone.
    Have you been reading a different thread Steve - see post #31 above. If that is not HB bashing, I don't know what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    There has never been a public announcement of a date for a completely new camera release that I am aware of. Certainly we as dealers have never posted any such information. If I am wrong, please show me.
    Its like the twilight zone this. Certainly since 2011, and there was talk in 2010 when I bought a P65+ of a new camera around the corner. Correct, no dates were given but official announcements were made by P1 of its existence. Posts from users and dealers always came up regarding this camera in development and Digital backs were sold and DF/DF+ inadequacies were quashed with talk of the new camera coming soon.

    By the very fact that P1 announced officially its existence and talk of camera development suggested is was always due soon, at the end of the year, at Photokina etc. Now talk from P1 and dealers is scarce as its become a white elephant. Hopefully at Photokina this year we'll be lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I understand what your post was about. But you shouldn't post a point that does nothing to support your argument - the fact is yes you can use any digital back made for the mount on a Mamiya/Phase One 645 camera. That includes Phase One, of course, Leaf, of course, Hasselblad - if they made one, and Sinar - who do.
    I'm sorry, again you seem to jump to the conclusions when all I'm doing is disbursing assumptions made by previous posts. My point is clear, HB are criticised for being a locked system when its not as far as you can use other cameras or use HB cameras with others backs.

  33. #33
    Member Miller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    66
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Drennon View Post
    One other item I forgot to bring up in my initial post is the proposition that motion cameras (ARRI, RED, Canon C-series) are the future of still photography. In other words, just pull the still you want from a motion file. In my exploration of medium format digital, I have been advised that the way to go is towards something like a RED Epic and do this.

    The thought of photographing this way is pretty unappealing to me, though I'm sure some will go that direction. It seems to me that a medium format digital stills camera will still be able to do things that RED Epic just could not quite do.
    AND VIDEO?

    The day I would have to shoot video in order to pull a still , well, I just don't see myself doing that.
    But then, I am a real dino as I don't own a cam that can shoot video.
    Still very happy with an H3DII 39, despite the apparent inferior image quality compared to the somewhat pricy Phase backs. I even bought a secondhand H1 to shoot B&W film again.
    The occasional portrait is quite doable, despite the absence of true focus.
    Owning a camera is better than waiting for the next best thing, I would say.
    Frans Rutten
    http://fransrutten.werkaandemuur.nl
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  34. #34
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    It's funny that people talk about needing a lawyer to represent them here. I'm a lawyer in real life, and am often amused at the legalistic arguing that goes on it internet forums. Some posts read like legal arguments.

    The difference is that in most legal forums there are only three arguments, and then it ends. The party with the burden of proof argues, the opposing party responds, and then the proponent gets to reply. Only on TV (and the internet) do the arguments go on and on. Of course in court the issues aren't so important: merely often lengthy prison terms and the occasional death judgment.
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  35. #35
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Have you been reading a different thread Steve - see post #31 above. If that is not HB bashing, I don't know what is.



    Its like the twilight zone this. Certainly since 2011, and there was talk in 2010 when I bought a P65+ of a new camera around the corner. Correct, no dates were given but official announcements were made by P1 of its existence. Posts from users and dealers always came up regarding this camera in development and Digital backs were sold and DF/DF+ inadequacies were quashed with talk of the new camera coming soon.

    By the very fact that P1 announced officially its existence and talk of camera development suggested is was always due soon, at the end of the year, at Photokina etc. Now talk from P1 and dealers is scarce as its become a white elephant. Hopefully at Photokina this year we'll be lucky.



    I'm sorry, again you seem to jump to the conclusions when all I'm doing is disbursing assumptions made by previous posts. My point is clear, HB are criticised for being a locked system when its not as far as you can use other cameras or use HB cameras with others backs.
    That's right - you're not the HB basher, you're pointing out the HB basher. Ok. Since I'm neither basher nor endorser, my only point was to not comment on any Hasselblad financial rumors, but I will post my opinion about what the Phase One situation means to me and I disagreed with your perspective. That's all. That's ok, right? For me to disagree?

    As far as the new camera and announcements, all that has ever happened is Phase One acknowledged they are working on one and it is coming. They have never given a release date nor a formal impending announcement. The closest perhaps was last Photokina when it was anticipated that might be the date of release. Perhaps it was! (and this anticipation never came from Phase One, it came from dealers and photographers). Instead, they very, very modestly tweaked the DF+. Yes, big letdown. But there've been no promises broken. Perhaps they thought they were close and decided they wanted to go for something better. This happens all the time.

    The delay for product delivery is often not that something doesn't work right, but in the process of development, they realize something can work better than they thought - but will take more time. I have absolutely zero problem with Phase One not releasing a camera because they are making it better than they originally anticipated. Should somebody be cautious about any concrete plans for a delivery date? Sure.

    I have nothing more to say about open/closed as I have never involved myself too deeply in this debate and don't plan to at this point.

    David - should you buy an H4D-60? Now? If you can't wait until Photokina (about 3+ months away), then sure, why not? Otherwise, if you opt to look at a Phase One IQ160/260 or Leaf Credo 60 now, perhaps you should consider the extended warranty for a free platform swap to hedge your bets.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    That's right - you're not the HB basher, you're pointing out the HB basher. Ok. Since I'm neither basher nor endorser, my only point was to not comment on any Hasselblad financial rumors, but I will post my opinion about what the Phase One situation means to me and I disagreed with your perspective. That's all. That's ok, right? For me to disagree?
    Balance my friend!

    I have spent a lot with P1 over the years and do not regret any of it or have an axe to grind.

    A forum that has no official Hasselblad representation but is very Phase centric which is possibly partly due to its dominated by a Phase One dealer presence needs some impartiality which I offered. I don't sell digital backs but enjoy using them so have no horse in the race.

    That's all. That's ok, right? For me to suggest people try rather than accept half truths and rumour?
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  37. #37
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Balance my friend!

    I have spent a lot with P1 over the years and do not regret any of it or have an axe to grind.

    A forum that has no official Hasselblad representation but is very Phase centric which is possibly partly due to its dominated by a Phase One dealer presence needs some impartiality which I offered. I don't sell digital backs but enjoy using them so have no horse in the race.

    That's all. That's ok, right? For me to suggest people try rather than accept half truths and rumour?

    Mr G, I suppose it's ok for you to suggest some impartiality. If there is such a thing...

    I'm not sure there is, so as much as possible, I like there to be factual information in any event.

    This forum has no official Phase One or Hasselblad presence. It has many users and several dealers, not all of whom only sell Phase One.

    I've never understood the "Phase bias" angle on forums. Surely there's Hasselblad and Phase users. I see nothing stopping either from piping up, so don't know why one side would feel slighted. And almost all slights (should) come from users, not dealers. A dealer should not comment or at least inaccurately disparage a product they do not sell, nor should they produce unrealistic fantasies about products they do sell.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  38. #38
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Drennon View Post
    One other item I forgot to bring up in my initial post is the proposition that motion cameras (ARRI, RED, Canon C-series) are the future of still photography. In other words, just pull the still you want from a motion file. In my exploration of medium format digital, I have been advised that the way to go is towards something like a RED Epic and do this.

    The thought of photographing this way is pretty unappealing to me, though I'm sure some will go that direction. It seems to me that a medium format digital stills camera will still be able to do things that RED Epic just could not quite do.
    Shooting video and shooting stills are two distinctly different art forms. With video, you work along a timeline, and framing, DOF etc. are decided by the way you want to tell the story. The best still photos at the location/event in question may or may not exist along that line. Shooting video to grab a still will often mean bad video or bad photography, sometimes both.

    A Land Rover can take you along the road or over the mountains, but along the road, a Camry would be a faster, more comfortable proposition.

  39. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    362
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    5

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Hey Steve. Take it from me. There is definitely a Phase bias on this forum. But that is OK with me. Most of us understand this and accept it for what it is. In life we see bias in most areas, and it is our duty to try and sort it out and separate it from the facts.

    Greg

  40. #40
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    What does "bias" mean?
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  41. #41
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by BANKER1 View Post
    Hey Steve. Take it from me. There is definitely a Phase bias on this forum. But that is OK with me. Most of us understand this and accept it for what it is. In life we see bias in most areas, and it is our duty to try and sort it out and separate it from the facts.

    Greg
    I'm not debating the bias, but you make it sound like an agenda, and my question is the bias is from whom? The people that use the products. How can it be an agenda if they are simply positive about the product they use (and maybe not positive about a competitive product they don't use)? From that standpoint, it is an equal opportunity forum.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  42. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    313
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    Hi
    I think Fuji will end up owning Hasselblad. They already SNIP, designed the bodies,

    No they did not.

  43. #43
    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Shanghai / Miami
    Posts
    552
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    124

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    No they did not.
    Please see below - There is a relationship. - I do think Fuji is competent and there is no dispute that Fuji has MF experience.

    In 1998, Hasselblad began selling the XPan, a camera designed and made in Japan by Fujifilm.

    In 2002, they introduced the H-System, retroactively renaming their original camera line the V-System. The H-System marked an essential transition for the company. It dropped the traditional Hasselblad square negative format, instead using 64.5 cm film and a new series of lenses. The then owners had no confidence in Hasselblad's already advanced digital project returning a profit, and, seeing the relative success in the market of the modern (i.e. fully automated) 645 cameras made by manufacturers like Pentax and Mamiya, closed down Hasselblad's digital department and directed all effort towards making this 645 film camera. The H-System is largely designed and manufactured by Hasselblad, with Fuji's involvement being limited to finalizing Hasselblad's lens designs and producing the glass for the lenses and viewfinders. Fuji was allowed under the agreement to sell the H1 under their name in Japan only.

    XPan (19982006) (designed and manufactured by Fujifilm)

    H-System
    The camera used Fujinon manufactured lenses and prisms, thus departing from Hasselblad's long association with Carl Zeiss when it comes to lens manufacturing. Shutter in the lenses was still manufactured by Hasselblad and so is the body. Hasselblad initially invited both PhaseOne and Kodak to develop digital backs for the H-System.

    In 2002 Hasselblad introduced the H series of cameras. These were purportedly designed in large measure by Hasselblad's engineers, but are built in Japan by Fuji. The lenses for the H series are all designed and made by Fuji, but specified by Hasselblad. It's interesting to note as well that in Japan the H series cameras are sold as Fuji brand cameras, with no mention whatsoever of the name Hasselblad. (This applied as well to the excellent Hasselblad X-Pan, which was simply a rebranded Fuji product)

    When the H1 was first introduced that was much wailing and gnashing of teeth among the Hasselblad faithful. The move from Zeiss to Fuji lenses was the source of concern. The past few years has shown this not to have been an issue. Fuji makes some of the finest large format and scientific application lenses in the world, and Hasselblad claims to have specified the lenses for the H series cameras

    GX645AF: the AF Medium Format SLR Camera
    The GX645AF was developed in collaboration with the world-renowned Hasselblad camera manufacturer. It is the medium format auto focus SLR camera in the world.

    Thanks

    Phil

  44. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    313
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    Please see below - There is a relationship. - I do think Fuji is competent and there is no dispute that Fuji has MF experience.
    No one is suggesting otherwise.
    You initially posted that Fuji designed the H System bodies.
    They absolutely did not.

    In 1998, Hasselblad began selling the XPan, a camera designed and made in Japan by Fujifilm.

    In 2002, they introduced the H-System, retroactively renaming their original camera line the V-System. The H-System marked an essential transition for the company. It dropped the traditional Hasselblad square negative format, instead using 64.5 cm film and a new series of lenses. The then owners had no confidence in Hasselblad's already advanced digital project returning a profit, and, seeing the relative success in the market of the modern (i.e. fully automated) 645 cameras made by manufacturers like Pentax and Mamiya, closed down Hasselblad's digital department and directed all effort towards making this 645 film camera.
    I was not aware that Hasselblad had a digital project when the H camera was conceived. It is correct to say that the camera was initially conceived as a film camera, but Hasselblad soon realised they needed digital and acquired Imacon for their digital knowledge.
    The H-System is largely designed and manufactured by Hasselblad, with Fuji's involvement being limited to finalizing Hasselblad's lens designs and producing the glass for the lenses and viewfinders. Fuji was allowed under the agreement to sell the H1 under their name in Japan only.

    XPan (19982006) (designed and manufactured by Fujifilm)

    H-System
    The camera used Fujinon manufactured lenses and prisms, thus departing from Hasselblad's long association with Carl Zeiss when it comes to lens manufacturing. Shutter in the lenses was still manufactured by Hasselblad and so is the body. Hasselblad initially invited both PhaseOne and Kodak to develop digital backs for the H-System.
    The above is largely correct but then your paste goes on to contradict itself:

    In 2002 Hasselblad introduced the H series of cameras. These were purportedly designed in large measure by Hasselblad's engineers, but are built in Japan by Fuji. The lenses for the H series are all designed and made by Fuji, but specified by Hasselblad.
    This is NOT accurate.
    The H system Cameras are built in Gothenburg Sweden. The backs were until recently made in Denmark (Now Sweden). The lenses are designed by a Swede not by Fuji. The optics ARE made in Japan to Swedish designs. The shutters are designed and made in Sweden.

    It's interesting to note as well that in Japan the H series cameras are sold as Fuji brand cameras, with no mention whatsoever of the name Hasselblad. (This applied as well to the excellent Hasselblad X-Pan, which was simply a rebranded Fuji product)
    That's because the co-operation agreement specified exactly that. There is nothing unusual or even especially interesting in the arrangement.

  45. #45
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Balance my friend!

    I have spent a lot with P1 over the years and do not regret any of it or have an axe to grind.

    A forum that has no official Hasselblad representation but is very Phase centric which is possibly partly due to its dominated by a Phase One dealer presence needs some impartiality which I offered. I don't sell digital backs but enjoy using them so have no horse in the race.

    That's all. That's ok, right? For me to suggest people try rather than accept half truths and rumour?
    Lets be clear here . This is a publc forum and on more than one occasion i have asked Hassy to participate with there dealers the management and anyone that cares to jump in. Nothing and i have also asked several times to do reviews on Hassy and zip, nada, nothing. Please you have any connections with Hassy tell them to get there butts in here and jump in. There more than welcome just like any other OEM or dealer. I dont see canon or Nikon reps here either so please lets not crucify the ones that do participate even if it is bias to some degree. We are all adults here and smart enough to separate the facts from the chaff.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  46. #46
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    No one is suggesting otherwise.
    You initially posted that Fuji designed the H System bodies.
    They absolutely did not.



    I was not aware that Hasselblad had a digital project when the H camera was conceived. It is correct to say that the camera was initially conceived as a film camera, but Hasselblad soon realised they needed digital and acquired Imacon for their digital knowledge.


    The above is largely correct but then your paste goes on to contradict itself:



    This is NOT accurate.
    The H system Cameras are built in Gothenburg Sweden. The backs were until recently made in Denmark (Now Sweden). The lenses are designed by a Swede not by Fuji. The optics ARE made in Japan to Swedish designs. The shutters are designed and made in Sweden.


    That's because the co-operation agreement specified exactly that. There is nothing unusual or even especially interesting in the arrangement.
    Thanks Nick the way i understand it is you have it correctly. In all honesty it means nothing anyway where things are built. Everything is down to computer design and a exact process is in place. Heck this stuff with the proper gear could be built in my garage. The bottom line does it perform to spec is all that matters.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  47. #47
    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Shanghai / Miami
    Posts
    552
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    124

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Amazing - The post starts off on the "The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing"

    The post I made - which has been made of various posts on this forum - is what is the future of Hasselblad as a company. There has been speculation that Sony should buy Hasselblad since they are using a Sony sensor now - that's a different discussion.

    My point was and is should Hasselblad be sold - as there is a speculation, Fuji has collaborated with Hasselblad and Fuji is certainly qualified - Your notion that Fuji blindly made some Hasselblad lenses to Hasselblad specs as an afterthought, is ignoring the point. Hasselblad did not buy cable releases from Fuji.

    The post does not contradict itself, it states the facts of the relationship and in no way demeans Hasselblad, but quite the contrary, shows there is more that a passing business relationship. So opinionating on these issues is not doing the subject justice.

    While I agree it does not matter where things are built, Guy's garage not withstanding, it does matter who built them, At no time have I heard Hasselblad (or Hasselblad users) expressing dissatisfaction, with the products that Fuji built. To speculate - coming from manufacturing - it would naive to think that Fuji was just an OEM with no collaboration from both sides.

    Personally I hope that Hasselblad is around for the next 100 years, I am old fashioned in my point of view, products have to be made and not just marketed. But also realistic to know that Companies have to be profitable, I do expect to see some consolidation in the Still Camera field.

    In the meantime, as Photography has shown us through out its history, change is the only constant.

    So I repeat my post - to agree and diminish this collaboration , would just be wrong.

    Thanks

    Phil

  48. #48
    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Shanghai / Miami
    Posts
    552
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    124

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    No one is suggesting otherwise.
    You initially posted that Fuji designed the H System bodies.
    They absolutely did not.

    I suggest you read it again - My initial post does not mention the H system



    I was not aware that Hasselblad had a digital project when the H camera was conceived. It is correct to say that the camera was initially conceived as a film camera, but Hasselblad soon realised they needed digital and acquired Imacon for their digital knowledge.


    The above is largely correct but then your paste goes on to contradict itself:

    ????????????


    This is NOT accurate.
    The H system Cameras are built in Gothenburg Sweden. The backs were until recently made in Denmark (Now Sweden). The lenses are designed by a Swede not by Fuji. The optics ARE made in Japan to Swedish designs. The shutters are designed and made in Sweden.

    At no time were backs ever mentioned.


    That's because the co-operation agreement specified exactly that. There is nothing unusual or even especially interesting in the arrangement.
    Interesting is in the eye of the beholder.

  49. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Lets be clear here . This is a publc forum and on more than one occasion i have asked Hassy to participate with there dealers the management and anyone that cares to jump in. Nothing and i have also asked several times to do reviews on Hassy and zip, nada, nothing. Please you have any connections with Hassy tell them to get there butts in here and jump in. There more than welcome just like any other OEM or dealer. I dont see canon or Nikon reps here either so please lets not crucify the ones that do participate even if it is bias to some degree. We are all adults here and smart enough to separate the facts from the chaff.
    I have no connection with any camera dealer. I pointed out an inaccuracy that P1 produce better files than HB cameras amongst other comments. I then in the interests of balance, highlighted some truths that could be of concern to someone purchasing a P1 system - a system I have 14 years experience using. That touched a nerve with a P1 dealer who participated in this thread and I become the bad guy?

    Camera manufacturers reluctance to participate is understandable as being the voice of one of these is then reacted to in the manner of my 'trying to be helpful' post.

  50. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,587
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

    Is Steve H. no longer a Hasselblad dealer? His signature says he is, or am I reading it wrong?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •