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Thread: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

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    Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    Hi Guys,
    I have a question and wanted to gain some insight from architectural shooters that might have contemplated the same thing or have direct experience. Before I ask the question, a little background...

    I have a long history in photography and have shot everything possible from landscapes to fine art, from automobiles to food. I currently own two (really 2 1/2) systems, an extensive Canon system, including 1Dx with lenses from 14mm through 600mm (including 17mm TS-E and 24mm TS-E II). I also have a Phase One 645DF+ with a Credo 60 and an 80mm LS and 110mm LS. I also have an RZ67ProIID with a few lenses including the 75mm shift lens (that's the 1/2...LOL).

    I primarily shoot people commercially, thousands of pictures weekly. To do that I use either the 1Dx with the 70-200mm f2.8 II or 85mm f1.2 OR the Phase One 645 DF+ with the 110mm LS. I will routinely sync the PO system and 110mm LS at 1/1600s with the Profoto Air system to shoot f2.8 in the sun.

    A small part of my business (5-10%) is comprised of architectural interiors. Historically I have used the Canon system with either the 14mm f2.8, 17mm TS-E, or 24mm TS-E. I am very interested in a tech cam arrangement, something like the Cambo WRS system, and would have bought in already, but the lens cost was quite literally, shocking. Still considering it though. My belief, is that the tech cam solution is the pinnacle of performance for architectural captures. If my biz had more architectural work, it would have been a foregone conclusion. But, ROI is a tough one when the architectural work quantity/income is not nearly on par with the quantity/income from the people work.

    My goal, of course is to obtain the best quality capture for the architectural interior work, given the equipment I own, or through selective new purchase(s) that broaden my capabilities and make financial sense. Why not put the Credo 60 into play with the architectural work? Right?

    So, while I contemplate the high cost of entry of a tech cam purchase, another thought came into my mind. What about the Phase One 28mm (non-LS) lens? How will the results of that compare to using the 14mm or 17mm or 24mmTS-E II on the 1Dx?

    Thoughts? Comments?

    Thanks in advance,
    Ken

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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    Hi Ken -

    Have you considered putting an ALPA FPS in the middle of your Credo 60 and Canon TS-E's?

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    Ahh, didn't realise I still had this up. Might as well pop it here..

    The following link provides direct comparison between the 23HR (on ALPA Max) and Canon 24 TS-E (on ALPA FPS) using an IQ180.

    Copyright Gerald Donovan 2013. All rights reserved.

    If you pull out the draw on the left hand side of the screen, you can select f/8, f/11, f/16 for either lens - should be self explanatory.

    These are full res files, tiled into JPGS. Hit the help (?) button at the bottom if you're not sure how to view them.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    Hi, There are several options.

    #1: Buy a Phase 28mm D or LS lens. ($5k-$6k new) Good quality from what I have seen. Hard lens to filter though.

    #2: Buy a used Mamiya 645 28mm lens ($3k-$4k), similar to above but less image quality.

    #3: Buy Alpa FPS w/ Canon Mount (around $10,000) and you can use your TS-E lenses with your Credo 60. Lot's of lens options. Good Image quality.

    #4: Buy a tech camera like the Arca FacTum and a Schneider 35mm digitar. About $8,500 (+-). Best edge to edge image quality no question and shift/rise/fall/tilt capability. Great modular system.

    I would talk to a dealer since they can provide great options (new and used) and also answer your questions in detail. I use DT in NY.

    I have an Arca RM3Di w/ IQ160 back and Rodenstock HR lenses. I love it but a lot of times for interiors I still use my Canon system when I need a lot of different shots and do not have much time to do them. However, the image quality from the Arca setup is in another realm. It is just superb.

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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    Sadly for me, good for you, the SK35 seems to have really taken a beating in used pricing.

    As Gerald mentioned the Alpa FPS is a great solution but cost of entry too too much for me, as an Arca user. Wish Arca would come out with something similar.

    As Ken mentioned, a great entry point lens on your 60MP credo, if you are willing to also invest in the tech camera. On your back, 7 to 8mm of shift and about the same rise fall probably more like 9 to 10 rise and fall.

    Schneider's have less distortion, but need the CF all the time so your shutter speeds will be a bit slower. CF needed even on center.

    Paul

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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    Hey guys,
    Thanks for the thorough responses.

    Gerald,
    Thank you for your FPS suggestion. I spent a bit of time learning about it today online. It seems like a fantastic product aimed squarely at my needs. Also, thank you for the link to the comparison application. That must have been a lot of work and I appreciate you sharing it with me. Since the top left corner of the image is very easily used to discern fine detail and distortion (the tower and antenna), I looked at the differences between the two lenses at the different apertures. I have to say, I am quite impressed with the Canon to stand up against the 23HR.

    Ken,
    Thanks for the list of solutions. Very helpful. These days, I am primarily focused on my paid work and, as such, have not shot a landscape in a very long time. So, the drawback, at least how I see it, to a wide angel lens for the Phase One 645 DF+ is its singular use. I would use it for interior architecture and that is pretty much it. High cost for a very specific tool, again, considering that would be my only use for it presently. I have looked into tech cams a short time ago and was focusing on a Cambo WRS with a Rodenstock 32 (I think ) and as much as I like it purity and exceptional performance, again, it is a high cost of entry for a very specific tool in my present situation. I definitely like versatility (another reason i have the RZ67 kit, wherein I can hang the DB on it and have a whole other look and feel for my people photography). The FPS (or maybe Hartblei similar product) is interesting and has such versatility that I can experiment with other lenses and achieve acceptable results.

    Paul,
    Thank you. See above on my viewpoint on the tech camera.

    Since I am not shooting vastly wide interiors, and have acceptably used my three Canon wides in the past (high-end residential kitchens primarily), I thought there would be a reasonable way to incorporate greater resolution (Credo) without a huge entry cost.

    Does the fact that I am not shooting extremely wide interiors, nor anything taller than a standard residential ceiling height change the recommendations here? I would think keeping the lens stationary and moving the back to stitch would be the best solution, from a perspective control standpoint, but barring a tech camera, does this specific subject matter change any opinions?

    Thanks again in advance!
    Last edited by Transposure; 8th June 2014 at 14:47.

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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    I agree with the advice already given. Considering you already have the Tse lenses and a Credo 60, the Alpa FPS seems a sound investment which also can be used for many other lenses and more fields of photography down the road.
    Having the FPS and the Credo 60 myself it is a tempting solution for me too, but I am very pleased and still amazed at the iq I get from the Alps Max and the Schneider 28 XL! Limiting myself to a maximum shift of 8mm, most of the time 4-6mm, the 28 XL is an incredible lens and has proved to be my 'swiss knife' to do 90% of my architectural assignments.
    But, in your shoes I would go FPS route...
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Hi, There are several options.

    #1: Buy a Phase 28mm D or LS lens. ($5k-$6k new) Good quality from what I have seen. Hard lens to filter though.

    #2: Buy a used Mamiya 645 28mm lens ($3k-$4k), similar to above but less image quality.

    #3: Buy Alpa FPS w/ Canon Mount (around $10,000) and you can use your TS-E lenses with your Credo 60. Lot's of lens options. Good Image quality.

    #4: Buy a tech camera like the Arca FacTum and a Schneider 35mm digitar. About $8,500 (+-). Best edge to edge image quality no question and shift/rise/fall/tilt capability. Great modular system.

    I would talk to a dealer since they can provide great options (new and used) and also answer your questions in detail. I use DT in NY.

    I have an Arca RM3Di w/ IQ160 back and Rodenstock HR lenses. I love it but a lot of times for interiors I still use my Canon system when I need a lot of different shots and do not have much time to do them. However, the image quality from the Arca setup is in another realm. It is just superb.
    Do some of these options require software distortion correction? Because if you're going to be pushing pixels around in any case, you might consider one other option:

    #5 Buy a used Mamiya 645 24mm lens (<= $1k) and de-fish the images. It's wider than the 28mm Mamiya/P1/SK lenses, sharper than at least the 1st-gen 28/4.5, and so much more affordable that you lose nothing by just trying it out.

    I showed an example here previously. Your larger DB would go even wider.

    Ray

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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    Dan,
    Thank you for responding. I will say that I have seen your work previously and would like to compliment you on it. Fabulous body of work! I appreciate your advice, regarding the FPS, as it seems to be the "missing link" insofar as the parts and pieces I already possess. However, I will still be missing rear shift capability. Now, I guess the question would deb...if I employed the FPS, how to keep the lens stationary and shift the FPS and Credo as a whole? This would be the best way to do this considering interior residential architecture and the challenges of dealing with near subjects, right?

    Ray,
    Thank you for your suggestion and the link to your before/after shot. In general, I would disagree about pushing pixels around with the options I am exploring. The use of the TSE lenses, or the 14mm or a stitched image from a tech cam negates the need for "pixel pushing" to which you are referring. They optically correct the perspective that is projected onto the sensor and this is my goal with all of my photography, to get it right in camera whenever possible. While I realize that software is capable to fix the distortion and in many cases, it ends up looking acceptable (your example shows that its possible), I prefer to embrace a solution that gets it quite right at capture.

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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Transposure View Post
    if I employed the FPS, how to keep the lens stationary and shift the FPS and Credo as a whole?
    I'm not Dan but here are two links possibly answering your question:

    Hartblei:

    Canon TSE Tripod Collar


    Panoshifter for the older 24mm TSE (can be found on ebay):

    Panoshifter for Canon TS-E lenses - YouTube



    Chris
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    Re: Canon 17mmTS-E or 24mm TS-E II vs. Phase One 28mm for Architectural Project

    since canon has been dragging it's feet for a large mpx body, consider a sony A7R and a canon lens adapter. about a 2k investment

    otherwise, go tech cam. i use the cambo wrs with tilt/swing lens around a 7-8k investment, with one lens
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