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ALPA Rumors 2014

gerald.d

Well-known member
Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

Gerald,

When I had my FPS I was thrilled for once having the ability to dial in a shutter speed in tenth's if I wanted and have my f stop of choice. No more being forced into whole f stop's for shutter speed changes. I was willing to take on the extra bulk and weight. For the first two days I busy just getting into every aspect of the FPS and was completely overjoyed with what it could do. Then...... I started to look at my images from my IQ180 at 100% and was taken back that they were soft. I'm pretty good at nailing focus but blamed it on focus - took more images and looked again and sure enough they were soft. In fact they were soft everywhere - I couldn't find *any* in focus area (f11). So, I decided to see if maybe, just maybe there were shutter issues. I was using my STC in combination with the FPS and mounted my 150mm Digitar and shot my house from about 150 feet. The FPS was set to 5 second delay. I then switched shutters and shot with the STC and cable release (same shutter speed for both). Examination showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was significant shutter vibration with the focal plain shutter which was *completely* absent when using the leaf shutter. That was it for me..... it all just really started to make sense..... they were using the same shutter that Mamiya supplies to Phase and that camera is completely useless with longer lenses in the danger shutter speed zone (I own one!!). There's no reason why the FPS would be any better...... and if there was a fix it would have been implemented by now with a firmware upgrade. Obviously it can't be done. Alpa bragged about their shutter being vibration free and I bought it hook line and sinker. It took me three days to figure out that the opposite existed and I sent it back for a refund. Anyone who posts about these shutters not being completely vibration free and we should all just live with it *can* live with it..... I'm not. Not for that kind of money...... and I can easily afford it. For your sake I'm glad you are pleased and I hope the FPS brings you great pleasure. Didn't work for me......

Victor
With respect Victor, you seem to be completely ignoring the reason why I would appear to not have a problem with shutter vibration from the FPS, whilst you did.

Two questions -

How about you post a photo of how you mounted the camera and lens to your tripod, and then we can go from there (I'll post how I do it later in the day)?

I've posted samples shot at 300mm above at 1/6th of a second and 0.7 seconds. Can you see evidence of vibration in those shots?

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

danlindberg

Well-known member
No matter what lens I use (see byline what I have), no matter what shutter speed I use - I simply CANNOT see the difference between Copal and FPS.

True, I do not use very long lenses, but I'm sure I would detect 'something' with what I have should there be 'built in' shutter vibrations!!

I get equal results at 1/4, 1/30 or any speed between the two shutters. Either my eyes are bad or my gear just works....


 

vjbelle

Well-known member
No matter what lens I use (see byline what I have), no matter what shutter speed I use - I simply CANNOT see the difference between Copal and FPS.

True, I do not use very long lenses, but I'm sure I would detect 'something' with what I have should there be 'built in' shutter vibrations!!

I get equal results at 1/4, 1/30 or any speed between the two shutters. Either my eyes are bad or my gear just works....
No..... I don't think your eyes are bad.....! I cannot speak for your experiences - only my own. I didn't go through the exercise of returning my FPS for the fun of it. I'll never forget the feeling I had when I saw the first results between the two shutters...... as though I was a complete fool. Not very much fun. Anyway..... that was then. Glad that it is all working out for you.

When I was testing for vibration I found that static images at some distance would show vibration more than others. 200 to 300 feet would be a good distance. My files are long gone or I would post my examples.

Regards....

Victor
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

With respect Victor, you seem to be completely ignoring the reason why I would appear to not have a problem with shutter vibration from the FPS, whilst you did.

Two questions -

How about you post a photo of how you mounted the camera and lens to your tripod, and then we can go from there (I'll post how I do it later in the day)?

I've posted samples shot at 300mm above at 1/6th of a second and 0.7 seconds. Can you see evidence of vibration in those shots?

Kind regards,

Gerald.
It's really a moot point as I no longer have the FPS. However I tried various tripods and heads. I travel with my Alpa and use a dinky Gitzo traveler for support and a Acratech head. Very light and is all that's necessary for the Alpa. Of course, that combination showed the worst vibration with the FPS. I also have a series 3 Gitzo and Z1 head which did help some but did not eliminate the vibration. Your setup looks to be very sturdy and obviously is/was enough to mask the effects of shutter vibration. As I said previously glad it works for you and hope it gives you great pleasure.

As far as I'm concerned Alpa should move on from that relic shutter and come up with something electronic......

Regards....

Victor
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

For what it's worth, here is a fun test - depending on your appetite for fun - published by Alpa comparing copal shutter and focal plane shutter results from the same captures. There's quite an extensive variety of captures. Just from my quick review of these, I find it interesting, if not instructional to note that there are variations with all of the captures.

ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - News



Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
Gerald,

I found my FPS test files. The two I'm posting are using a Gitzo series 3 tripod with a Z1 ball head. Distance to the front of my house was about 175 feet and I was using my 150mm Digitar. The FPS was shot with a 5 second delay and the leaf shutter was fired with a cable release. Shutter speeds were 30th for the FPS and 60th for the leaf shutter. I have found that my Phase back doesn't always read the shutter times accurately as I was sure that I used the same shutter speed for both shutters.....but EXIF shows differently. Anyway that is not the point. There is no sharpening applied and the crops are 100% pixels. I am happy to supply the raw files....... This is what I experienced and why I no longer own the FPS. I wish the attachments were better but I'm a little clumsy at this. Image on the left is the leaf shutter and image on the right is FPS. Better examples of these files can be found here http://www.pbase.com/vjbelle/fps_vs_leaf_shutter

Victor
 
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gerald.d

Well-known member
Gerald,

I found my FPS test files. The two I'm posting are using a Gitzo series 3 tripod with a Z1 ball head. Distance to the front of my house was about 175 feet and I was using my 150mm Digitar. The FPS was shot with a 5 second delay and the leaf shutter was fired with a cable release. Shutter speeds were 30th for the FPS and 60th for the leaf shutter. I have found that my Phase back doesn't always read the shutter times accurately as I was sure that I used the same shutter speed for both shutters.....but EXIF shows differently. Anyway that is not the point. There is no sharpening applied and the crops are 100% pixels. I am happy to supply the raw files....... This is what I experienced and why I no longer own the FPS. I wish the attachments were better but I'm a little clumsy at this. Image on the left is the leaf shutter and image on the right is FPS. Better examples of these files can be found here fps_vs_leaf_shutter Photo Gallery by Victor Bellehumeur at pbase.com

Victor
Hi Victor -

Thanks for taking the time to dig these out. Yes - it is evident that there is a difference between the two, and that the copal shutter example is ever so slightly sharper (although to be perfectly honest, I had to align and stack the images in layers and flip between the two to see it clearly).

I know for a fact - because I have experienced it myself - that if you don't take sufficient care with your technique, you can get unsatisfactory results with a focal plane shutter. There really is no surprise here in what you are showing.

But as explained earlier - this is a fact of physics that you simply cannot ignore. That energy from the larger, heavier, and faster moving focal plane shutter has to go somewhere, and if you don't cater for that fact by taking care as to how you set the equipment up, it's not surprising if you get unsatisfactory results.

To my mind, this is no different to wondering why it's almost impossible to get a decently sharp image on an IQ180 handholding a 300mm lens at 1/250th shutter speed. Perhaps there are people out there who can pull that off, but I know I can't, so I use a tripod.

I simply cannot understand why you'd simply give up, rather than recognising that perhaps a system that supported both the camera and the lens would actually give you a satisfactory result.

Because what is evident from both my personal experience and others, is that IF you take sufficient care as to how you go about this, there is - to all intents and purposes - no discernible difference in quality between the two shutter options, but there are significant other benefits in being able to use the shutter on the FPS. To me, it's a no-brainer as to which way to go.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

/edit
PS - I have the same experience with you regarding the IQ180 inaccurately recording exposure times - it is extremely frustrating. FWIW, the IQ250 seems to be much better in this regard.

/edit 2.
If I may, allow me to sum this whole discussion up very simply.

If I wanted to prove that there was a difference in vibration caused by the focal plane shutter, and that caused by the leaf shutter, and that this had a detrimental impact on image quality, then there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I could do just that.

But I also rather suspect that if you wanted to prove the opposite - that it was possible to take a photo at the same shutter speed using each shutter in turn, resulting in identical image quality between the two? Well, I reckon you'd be perfectly capable of doing that too.
 

gazwas

Active member
If I may, allow me to sum this whole discussion up very simply.

If I wanted to prove that there was a difference in vibration caused by the focal plane shutter, and that caused by the leaf shutter, and that this had a detrimental impact on image quality, then there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I could do just that.

But I also rather suspect that if you wanted to prove the opposite - that it was possible to take a photo at the same shutter speed using each shutter in turn, resulting in identical image quality between the two? Well, I reckon you'd be perfectly capable of doing that too.
How I see this and possibly Victor too is that while the FPS is possibly the most exciting camera on the market to use with a digital back today, for the money it is fatally flawed by using that terrible Mamiya shutter. I'm 100% sure Victor could have got a bigger tripod, head, lens support and captured perfectly sharp images but why jump through hoops when you have paid so much for the camera if thats not your thing?

The fact that Alpa post so much info about FP vs LS is indication enough that it may be of some concern to them/potential buyers.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
Gerald,

I really appreciate the time you've put into this. I miss the FPS and *REALLY* wanted it to work out..... nothing to do with money. I just couldn't accept the fact - and still can't - that for all of that money I was generating a degraded image. The new examples from Alpa are somewhat troubling in that its very difficult to see any kind of real detail at infinity..... so I consider the images bogus. I put two comparison images into C1 with standard sharpening. They are stacked at 100% pixels and you can *REALLY* see smearing with the top image which was the FPS (5 sec delay). Bottom image is the Copal same tripod, same head, nothing changed except that the FPS shutter was locked open. A link is here for the screen grab (FPS vs Copal.PNG photo - Victor Bellehumeur photos at pbase.com please take a look...... distance is 180 feet. This is a really good distance for testing for vibration. I tried to upload them here but the results were terrible so best to use the link.

Again - best to you with the FPS. If I can prove to myself that there is no vibration with either my 100 or 150 I'll buy one. So far no deal.

Also, if you want raw files I'll give you a link.

Regards,

Victor
 
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jimban

New member
Hi-

I've had an FPS for a little over a year. My use is mostly with the canon TS-E lenses and I get images with no discernable shake with the 17 and 24mm lenses. I've also used other lenses to good effect.

It seems to me that the best way to measure camera vibration is with instrumentation rather than taking images with all the inherent variables not related directly to camera vibration.

But in the spirit of the dialog I set up my FPS with a Mamiya MF 500mm f5.6 lens on a light weight Gitzo 1227 tripod. The out door images were 1/45th of second at f11 just taken from my front porch. The bookcase image was 1/2 second.

The cut outs are at 100%

as always YMMV

 

cunim

Well-known member
Hi-

It seems to me that the best way to measure camera vibration is with instrumentation rather than taking images with all the inherent variables not related directly to camera vibration.



I recall the kafuffle around the Sony A7r shake. Some people never did see that in their images, but it was very clear to me (and to others including Victor). On that camera, shutter shake is aggravated by some shutter speed/lens combinations. It remains a major issue for some people. Others could care less.

Lots of argument and emotion were associated with showing that the A7r does shake enough to degrade images. Funny thing is that some people were surprised by that. While expecting some shake, I was surprised at how bad it could get - even with the camera mounted on a massive studio stand. Now I just avoid those lens/time combos and wait for a better shutter. At least I know what to do to minimize the problem.

Unlike classic shake, which yields a multi-edge type of effect, the A7r tends to show more of a vibration-induced blur than a discrete resonance. I suspect the Alpa FPS is doing something similar and that is so hard to see without deep pixel peeping in A/B images. Leads to wasted time and name calling.

As Jimban suggests, a quick MTF determination would demonstrate exactly how much degradation of lens performance the shake is contributing. Why not ask Alpa to provide MTF charts for a few popular lenses comparing the FPS vs leaf shutter? Take a few hours to do and would put the discussion to bed. Then, anyone could decide "Is X% off the MTF an acceptable price to pay for using the FPS?"

Steve.. can we get this?
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
It's not necessarily true that camera shake is worst with the absolute longest lenses.

Normally as you get longer the effects of shake are more and more prominent as the same angular movement results in more pixels of subject movement (hence hand holding slow shutter speeds with normal lenses is harder than hand holding short lenses). But depending on the dynamics of the lens mount, at some point as you get to very large lenses, the inertial mass of the lens itself starts to dampen the apparent visual effects of shutter-induced vibration.

(this is not speculation or commentary on the FPS specifically, only a comment based on the fact that many of the posts here discussing exploration of camera shake have centered on what seems to be a basic assumption that the most ardent test would be with the longest possible lens)
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
It's not necessarily true that camera shake is worst with the absolute longest lenses.
Well, for sure shake of any kind is mitigated with shorter lenses. As I moved towards my shorter focal lengths the vibration manifestations would decrease accordingly. My 60mm Digitar was just about completely free from any effects. But it is undeniable that shake is there as is evident in my post # 31. Anyone who sees that screen grab has to admit that there is a dramatic difference between the two images - images that were taken 1 minute apart...... the time necessary to open the shutter of the FPS and shoot with the Copal leaf shutter - everything else was identical.

Regards,

Victor
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
It's not necessarily true that camera shake is worst with the absolute longest lenses.

Normally as you get longer the effects of shake are more and more prominent as the same angular movement results in more pixels of subject movement (hence hand holding slow shutter speeds with normal lenses is harder than hand holding short lenses). But depending on the dynamics of the lens mount, at some point as you get to very large lenses, the inertial mass of the lens itself starts to dampen the apparent visual effects of shutter-induced vibration.

(this is not speculation or commentary on the FPS specifically, only a comment based on the fact that many of the posts here discussing exploration of camera shake have centered on what seems to be a basic assumption that the most ardent test would be with the longest possible lens)
I've shot every single one of the Canon big whites - all the way up to the 1200/5.6, and it's a simple fact that the longer the focal length, the more care you have to take to damp down the entire system to prevent vibration from focal plane shutters.

When you get up to the 800 and 1200, you really need to start seriously thinking about sandbagging the lens down to prevent vibration from almost any source ruining a long-ish exposure shot (and by sandbagging I mean both underneath and on top of the lens barrel). I even had to go so far as to get the AC in a building turned off when shooting from the rooftop with the 1200 once!

Where I do agree with you is when it comes to the dynamics of the lens mounting system itself.

What is significant is that the tech lenses do not have any tripod mounting points (nor indeed does the Phase 240LS), so for people shooting with an FPS, you are right in a way because once you start getting above 200mm, pretty much the only option actually involves shooting with lenses such as the Canons or the old Mamiya's, which have feet. In my experience it's this mounting option that is of primary benefit, rather than the additional weight of the lens.

Not having lens feet on focal lengths in the 150-300 range creates additional challenges, and it was good to see that ALPA are providing some links to solutions from a couple of companies to work around this, although my preference would always be to be able to lock down the lens itself, rather than rely on it just resting on a lens support.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Anyhow...

Back to the wishlist.

Built in timelapse and bramping functionality in the FPS pretty please!
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I've shot every single one of the Canon big whites - all the way up to the 1200/5.6, and it's a simple fact that the longer the focal length, the more care you have to take to damp down the entire system to prevent vibration from focal plane shutters.

When you get up to the 800 and 1200, you really need to start seriously thinking about sandbagging the lens down to prevent vibration from almost any source ruining a long-ish exposure shot (and by sandbagging I mean both underneath and on top of the lens barrel). I even had to go so far as to get the AC in a building turned off when shooting from the rooftop with the 1200 once!

Where I do agree with you is when it comes to the dynamics of the lens mounting system itself.

What is significant is that the tech lenses do not have any tripod mounting points (nor indeed does the Phase 240LS), so for people shooting with an FPS, you are right in a way because once you start getting above 200mm, pretty much the only option actually involves shooting with lenses such as the Canons or the old Mamiya's, which have feet. In my experience it's this mounting option that is of primary benefit, rather than the additional weight of the lens.

Not having lens feet on focal lengths in the 150-300 range creates additional challenges, and it was good to see that ALPA are providing some links to solutions from a couple of companies to work around this, although my preference would always be to be able to lock down the lens itself, rather than rely on it just resting on a lens support.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
Words of wisdom:)!!

Victor
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Folks

just one question to Vibelle:

how would you compare a normal leafshutter solution lens on a Alpa/Arca/Cambo whatever with a long tele over 500mm on an FPS or an HCam ?

:cool:

I think there is no way to do that, simply because they can´t be used.
so whatever complaint there may be (like with the Sony shutter bounce that I never found...!) it´s mostly without substance, as there is no comparison !

Gerald has shown several times which long stuff he uses, first on his HCam , later on his FPS. Several others of our customers use long teles and unisono the tenor is: never before they had so few problems with vibrations as with an HCam- and I know this same applies to the FPS.

It´s because of the construction of the body and the masses and the weighing in the housing.
We have tried this numerous times, result was always the same. many of the MF lenses showed for the first time their real potential, because before the most shots were really spoiled by Mirror slaps, now they just perform to what they were built for.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
Hi Folks

just one question to Vibelle:

how would you compare a normal leafshutter solution lens on a Alpa/Arca/Cambo whatever with a long tele over 500mm on an FPS or an HCam ?
I wouldn't because that was not/or will be the crux of my criticism of the FPS.

Thank you for all of your contributions......

Victor
 
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