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Thread: ALPA Rumors 2014

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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    ALPA Rumors 2014

    Sorry , no ALPA rumors in sight for 2014 yet .
    But for ALPA owners , this new handgrip might be useful .
    ALPA OF SWITZERLAND - Hersteller herausragender Kameras - News

    Mine is already on order .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2014

    Title renamed for 2014 .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Sorry , no ALPA rumors in sight for 2014 yet .
    But for ALPA owners , this new handgrip might be useful .
    ALPA OF SWITZERLAND - Hersteller herausragender Kameras - News

    Mine is already on order .
    I have a suspicion a little something for FPS owners might be coming for Photokina, or maybe even announced beforehand

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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    Yes , me too .
    I could imagine , that the FPS is split into two units (shutter unit + electronics) and the electronics can be controlled from your iPHONE .
    Haha just kidding .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    I would love a smaller FPS.

    Often I find myself leaving the FPS behind in favor of the TC, just for size and simplicity of use. I prefer the functionality of the FPS, but it seems to have been shaped by the need to be a shutter unit in a stitching-shifting situation, rather than formed purely as stand-alone camera. Personally I'd love that priority to be changed in a 'TC-FP' or whatever they wish to call it.

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    How about an FPS that has a completely vibration-less shutter instead of the clunker it has? Now that would be a real accomplishment!!

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    How about an FPS that has a completely vibration-less shutter instead of the clunker it has? Now that would be a real accomplishment!!

    Victor
    Recently I've been shooting plenty of images with a 600mm focal length (Mamiya 300mm/2.8 & 2x teleconverter) on the FPS at relatively low shutter speeds with a lot of success.

    The shutter has mass. It moves. It stops.

    Basic physics says that there's going to be some energy that has to be dissipated somehow. You simply need to ensure the camera/lens combination is absolutely locked down (I use a rail with both lens and camera bolted to it), and increase the mass of the entire imaging system (i.e. use a decent tripod, and weigh it down).

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    I can appreciate your experiences but mine were very different. With my 100mm and 150mm Digitar's I saw evidence of shutter vibration that wasn't there/disappeared when using the leaf shutter. Its very easy to move from one shutter to the other as I'm sure you know. So..... I don't own an FPS and won't until I see that this shutter has been dramatically improved.

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    My vote goes for a "FPS shift" : Let's marry the convenience of an electronic shutter with the versatility of a MAX or at least STC. Question is: does this work from an engineering point of view and would this cannibalize sales of the 6 series?

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    How about an FPS that has a completely vibration-less shutter instead of the clunker it has? Now that would be a real accomplishment!!

    Victor
    Have you ever seriously used an FPS? It seems not. The shutter is absolutely *not* a "clunker" its very good, relatively discreet (considering its size) and far better than the loud noise of a Phase or Hasselblad body. Or for that matter the Sony A7R, imho.

    what Focal Plane Shutter is 'vibration less'? I don't know of one.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by rupho View Post
    My vote goes for a "FPS shift" : Let's marry the convenience of an electronic shutter with the versatility of a MAX or at least STC. Question is: does this work from an engineering point of view and would this cannibalize sales of the 6 series?
    You can marry the FPS to an STC or Max already, so this is not going to happen.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    You can marry the FPS to an STC or Max already, so this is not going to happen.
    But it's a rather pointless exercise since there are very few lenses that shift in this set up 120XL and 90HR come to my mind, the 50HR is the shortest 34SB lens but it hits the FPS internals with just 5mm of movement.
    No wide angle lens can be shifted , the 50 is the widest to my knowledge when the FPS and STC/Max are combined
    In any case I know I am dreaming here but I bought tHe max for movements and the FPS for the electronics a combo would make my (working) day

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    I'd love if they could update the swa with rear lateral shift without sacrificing the vertical front rise. Landscape panoramic monster.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    I'd love if they could update the swa with rear lateral shift without sacrificing the vertical front rise. Landscape panoramic monster.
    How would that differ from the Max?

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Move the level on the STC, so its easy for rise/fall?

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    ALPA have posted an interesting focal plane/leaf shutter comparison on their website -

    ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - News

    This definitely concurs with the experience I've been having lately shooting with the Mamiya 300mm/2.8 and teleconverter - if you take care, the impact of possible vibration caused by the focal plane shutter can be mitigated.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Have you ever seriously used an FPS? It seems not. The shutter is absolutely *not* a "clunker" its very good, relatively discreet (considering its size) and far better than the loud noise of a Phase or Hasselblad body. Or for that matter the Sony A7R, imho.

    what Focal Plane Shutter is 'vibration less'? I don't know of one.
    I *HAVE* owned an FPS. Very past tense! Returned for shutter vibration issues. If you're happy spending over $11,000.00 for shutter vibration then that's your business..... I'm not. For that kind of money there should be zero vibration issues. Alpa know's of this issue and was quick to move from the longer lenses to shorter lenses to mitigate it. I'll take another look if/when they ever go electronic.

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    ALPA have posted an interesting focal plane/leaf shutter comparison on their website -

    ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - News

    This definitely concurs with the experience I've been having lately shooting with the Mamiya 300mm/2.8 and teleconverter - if you take care, the impact of possible vibration caused by the focal plane shutter can be mitigated.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
    Gerald..... did you notice - no 1/15, no 1/30, no 1/60. I wonder why?? At 1 sec or 1/4 second vibration is just about mitigated. 1/125 is at the edge of vibration. As I've said before I shoot with my 100 and 150 Digitars. The digitar's are basically 1 f stop lenses (f11). This means that its easy to be in the *real* danger zone for vibration (1/15 - 1/60). The Alpa test is pure propaganda.

    Regards.....

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I *HAVE* owned an FPS. Very past tense! Returned for shutter vibration issues. If you're happy spending over $11,000.00 for shutter vibration then that's your business..... I'm not. For that kind of money there should be zero vibration issues. Alpa know's of this issue and was quick to move from the longer lenses to shorter lenses to mitigate it. I'll take another look if/when they ever go electronic.

    Victor
    As I've already mentioned - I don't have any problems with shutter vibration from the FPS at focal lengths up to 600mm as long as I take care with how everything is set up.

    Couple of examples, both 300mm, 100% crops.

    First, focused on the Moon, shutter speed 1/6th of a second:



    Second, focused on the building, shutter speed 0.7 seconds:



    This was on a light Gitzo tripod with no additional weighting.

    Maybe I'm not being critical enough, but I'm not convinced those images show any issues from shutter vibration?

    I'm not being deliberately argumentative, I'm genuinely perplexed as to why you had so much trouble - it's a real shame to miss out on the benefits of the FPS system if there's an issue that can be resolved with a particular shooting technique.

    I've got a nice wide selection of lenses that I can call on - what focal length and shutter speed were giving you problems? I'd be interested to see for myself whether I have the same issues with a particular combination.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    I'm not being deliberately argumentative, I'm genuinely perplexed as to why you had so much trouble - it's a real shame to miss out on the benefits of the FPS system if there's an issue that can be resolved with a particular shooting technique.

    I've got a nice wide selection of lenses that I can call on - what focal length and shutter speed were giving you problems? I'd be interested to see for myself whether I have the same issues with a particular combination.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
    Gerald,

    When I had my FPS I was thrilled for once having the ability to dial in a shutter speed in tenth's if I wanted and have my f stop of choice. No more being forced into whole f stop's for shutter speed changes. I was willing to take on the extra bulk and weight. For the first two days I busy just getting into every aspect of the FPS and was completely overjoyed with what it could do. Then...... I started to look at my images from my IQ180 at 100% and was taken back that they were soft. I'm pretty good at nailing focus but blamed it on focus - took more images and looked again and sure enough they were soft. In fact they were soft everywhere - I couldn't find *any* in focus area (f11). So, I decided to see if maybe, just maybe there were shutter issues. I was using my STC in combination with the FPS and mounted my 150mm Digitar and shot my house from about 150 feet. The FPS was set to 5 second delay. I then switched shutters and shot with the STC and cable release (same shutter speed for both). Examination showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was significant shutter vibration with the focal plain shutter which was *completely* absent when using the leaf shutter. That was it for me..... it all just really started to make sense..... they were using the same shutter that Mamiya supplies to Phase and that camera is completely useless with longer lenses in the danger shutter speed zone (I own one!!). There's no reason why the FPS would be any better...... and if there was a fix it would have been implemented by now with a firmware upgrade. Obviously it can't be done. Alpa bragged about their shutter being vibration free and I bought it hook line and sinker. It took me three days to figure out that the opposite existed and I sent it back for a refund. Anyone who posts about these shutters not being completely vibration free and we should all just live with it *can* live with it..... I'm not. Not for that kind of money...... and I can easily afford it. For your sake I'm glad you are pleased and I hope the FPS brings you great pleasure. Didn't work for me......

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Gerald,

    When I had my FPS I was thrilled for once having the ability to dial in a shutter speed in tenth's if I wanted and have my f stop of choice. No more being forced into whole f stop's for shutter speed changes. I was willing to take on the extra bulk and weight. For the first two days I busy just getting into every aspect of the FPS and was completely overjoyed with what it could do. Then...... I started to look at my images from my IQ180 at 100% and was taken back that they were soft. I'm pretty good at nailing focus but blamed it on focus - took more images and looked again and sure enough they were soft. In fact they were soft everywhere - I couldn't find *any* in focus area (f11). So, I decided to see if maybe, just maybe there were shutter issues. I was using my STC in combination with the FPS and mounted my 150mm Digitar and shot my house from about 150 feet. The FPS was set to 5 second delay. I then switched shutters and shot with the STC and cable release (same shutter speed for both). Examination showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was significant shutter vibration with the focal plain shutter which was *completely* absent when using the leaf shutter. That was it for me..... it all just really started to make sense..... they were using the same shutter that Mamiya supplies to Phase and that camera is completely useless with longer lenses in the danger shutter speed zone (I own one!!). There's no reason why the FPS would be any better...... and if there was a fix it would have been implemented by now with a firmware upgrade. Obviously it can't be done. Alpa bragged about their shutter being vibration free and I bought it hook line and sinker. It took me three days to figure out that the opposite existed and I sent it back for a refund. Anyone who posts about these shutters not being completely vibration free and we should all just live with it *can* live with it..... I'm not. Not for that kind of money...... and I can easily afford it. For your sake I'm glad you are pleased and I hope the FPS brings you great pleasure. Didn't work for me......

    Victor
    With respect Victor, you seem to be completely ignoring the reason why I would appear to not have a problem with shutter vibration from the FPS, whilst you did.

    Two questions -

    How about you post a photo of how you mounted the camera and lens to your tripod, and then we can go from there (I'll post how I do it later in the day)?

    I've posted samples shot at 300mm above at 1/6th of a second and 0.7 seconds. Can you see evidence of vibration in those shots?

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    No matter what lens I use (see byline what I have), no matter what shutter speed I use - I simply CANNOT see the difference between Copal and FPS.

    True, I do not use very long lenses, but I'm sure I would detect 'something' with what I have should there be 'built in' shutter vibrations!!

    I get equal results at 1/4, 1/30 or any speed between the two shutters. Either my eyes are bad or my gear just works....


    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Here's how I mount the FPS with the 300/2.8 & 2X converter -



    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    No matter what lens I use (see byline what I have), no matter what shutter speed I use - I simply CANNOT see the difference between Copal and FPS.

    True, I do not use very long lenses, but I'm sure I would detect 'something' with what I have should there be 'built in' shutter vibrations!!

    I get equal results at 1/4, 1/30 or any speed between the two shutters. Either my eyes are bad or my gear just works....

    No..... I don't think your eyes are bad.....! I cannot speak for your experiences - only my own. I didn't go through the exercise of returning my FPS for the fun of it. I'll never forget the feeling I had when I saw the first results between the two shutters...... as though I was a complete fool. Not very much fun. Anyway..... that was then. Glad that it is all working out for you.

    When I was testing for vibration I found that static images at some distance would show vibration more than others. 200 to 300 feet would be a good distance. My files are long gone or I would post my examples.

    Regards....

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    With respect Victor, you seem to be completely ignoring the reason why I would appear to not have a problem with shutter vibration from the FPS, whilst you did.

    Two questions -

    How about you post a photo of how you mounted the camera and lens to your tripod, and then we can go from there (I'll post how I do it later in the day)?

    I've posted samples shot at 300mm above at 1/6th of a second and 0.7 seconds. Can you see evidence of vibration in those shots?

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
    It's really a moot point as I no longer have the FPS. However I tried various tripods and heads. I travel with my Alpa and use a dinky Gitzo traveler for support and a Acratech head. Very light and is all that's necessary for the Alpa. Of course, that combination showed the worst vibration with the FPS. I also have a series 3 Gitzo and Z1 head which did help some but did not eliminate the vibration. Your setup looks to be very sturdy and obviously is/was enough to mask the effects of shutter vibration. As I said previously glad it works for you and hope it gives you great pleasure.

    As far as I'm concerned Alpa should move on from that relic shutter and come up with something electronic......

    Regards....

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA rumors Photokina 2012

    For what it's worth, here is a fun test - depending on your appetite for fun - published by Alpa comparing copal shutter and focal plane shutter results from the same captures. There's quite an extensive variety of captures. Just from my quick review of these, I find it interesting, if not instructional to note that there are variations with all of the captures.

    ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - News



    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Gerald,

    I found my FPS test files. The two I'm posting are using a Gitzo series 3 tripod with a Z1 ball head. Distance to the front of my house was about 175 feet and I was using my 150mm Digitar. The FPS was shot with a 5 second delay and the leaf shutter was fired with a cable release. Shutter speeds were 30th for the FPS and 60th for the leaf shutter. I have found that my Phase back doesn't always read the shutter times accurately as I was sure that I used the same shutter speed for both shutters.....but EXIF shows differently. Anyway that is not the point. There is no sharpening applied and the crops are 100% pixels. I am happy to supply the raw files....... This is what I experienced and why I no longer own the FPS. I wish the attachments were better but I'm a little clumsy at this. Image on the left is the leaf shutter and image on the right is FPS. Better examples of these files can be found here http://www.pbase.com/vjbelle/fps_vs_leaf_shutter

    Victor
    Last edited by vjbelle; 8th July 2014 at 11:40. Reason: New information

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Another, updated shutter test from our friends at Alpa. I think it's pretty cool that they take the time to produce these - believe me, testing equipment is a painstaking undertaking. That Alpa voluntarily produces these tests for more precise information is outstanding.

    ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - News


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Gerald,

    I found my FPS test files. The two I'm posting are using a Gitzo series 3 tripod with a Z1 ball head. Distance to the front of my house was about 175 feet and I was using my 150mm Digitar. The FPS was shot with a 5 second delay and the leaf shutter was fired with a cable release. Shutter speeds were 30th for the FPS and 60th for the leaf shutter. I have found that my Phase back doesn't always read the shutter times accurately as I was sure that I used the same shutter speed for both shutters.....but EXIF shows differently. Anyway that is not the point. There is no sharpening applied and the crops are 100% pixels. I am happy to supply the raw files....... This is what I experienced and why I no longer own the FPS. I wish the attachments were better but I'm a little clumsy at this. Image on the left is the leaf shutter and image on the right is FPS. Better examples of these files can be found here fps_vs_leaf_shutter Photo Gallery by Victor Bellehumeur at pbase.com

    Victor
    Hi Victor -

    Thanks for taking the time to dig these out. Yes - it is evident that there is a difference between the two, and that the copal shutter example is ever so slightly sharper (although to be perfectly honest, I had to align and stack the images in layers and flip between the two to see it clearly).

    I know for a fact - because I have experienced it myself - that if you don't take sufficient care with your technique, you can get unsatisfactory results with a focal plane shutter. There really is no surprise here in what you are showing.

    But as explained earlier - this is a fact of physics that you simply cannot ignore. That energy from the larger, heavier, and faster moving focal plane shutter has to go somewhere, and if you don't cater for that fact by taking care as to how you set the equipment up, it's not surprising if you get unsatisfactory results.

    To my mind, this is no different to wondering why it's almost impossible to get a decently sharp image on an IQ180 handholding a 300mm lens at 1/250th shutter speed. Perhaps there are people out there who can pull that off, but I know I can't, so I use a tripod.

    I simply cannot understand why you'd simply give up, rather than recognising that perhaps a system that supported both the camera and the lens would actually give you a satisfactory result.

    Because what is evident from both my personal experience and others, is that IF you take sufficient care as to how you go about this, there is - to all intents and purposes - no discernible difference in quality between the two shutter options, but there are significant other benefits in being able to use the shutter on the FPS. To me, it's a no-brainer as to which way to go.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

    /edit
    PS - I have the same experience with you regarding the IQ180 inaccurately recording exposure times - it is extremely frustrating. FWIW, the IQ250 seems to be much better in this regard.

    /edit 2.
    If I may, allow me to sum this whole discussion up very simply.

    If I wanted to prove that there was a difference in vibration caused by the focal plane shutter, and that caused by the leaf shutter, and that this had a detrimental impact on image quality, then there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I could do just that.

    But I also rather suspect that if you wanted to prove the opposite - that it was possible to take a photo at the same shutter speed using each shutter in turn, resulting in identical image quality between the two? Well, I reckon you'd be perfectly capable of doing that too.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    If I may, allow me to sum this whole discussion up very simply.

    If I wanted to prove that there was a difference in vibration caused by the focal plane shutter, and that caused by the leaf shutter, and that this had a detrimental impact on image quality, then there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I could do just that.

    But I also rather suspect that if you wanted to prove the opposite - that it was possible to take a photo at the same shutter speed using each shutter in turn, resulting in identical image quality between the two? Well, I reckon you'd be perfectly capable of doing that too.
    How I see this and possibly Victor too is that while the FPS is possibly the most exciting camera on the market to use with a digital back today, for the money it is fatally flawed by using that terrible Mamiya shutter. I'm 100% sure Victor could have got a bigger tripod, head, lens support and captured perfectly sharp images but why jump through hoops when you have paid so much for the camera if thats not your thing?

    The fact that Alpa post so much info about FP vs LS is indication enough that it may be of some concern to them/potential buyers.
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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Gerald,

    I really appreciate the time you've put into this. I miss the FPS and *REALLY* wanted it to work out..... nothing to do with money. I just couldn't accept the fact - and still can't - that for all of that money I was generating a degraded image. The new examples from Alpa are somewhat troubling in that its very difficult to see any kind of real detail at infinity..... so I consider the images bogus. I put two comparison images into C1 with standard sharpening. They are stacked at 100% pixels and you can *REALLY* see smearing with the top image which was the FPS (5 sec delay). Bottom image is the Copal same tripod, same head, nothing changed except that the FPS shutter was locked open. A link is here for the screen grab (FPS vs Copal.PNG photo - Victor Bellehumeur photos at pbase.com please take a look...... distance is 180 feet. This is a really good distance for testing for vibration. I tried to upload them here but the results were terrible so best to use the link.

    Again - best to you with the FPS. If I can prove to myself that there is no vibration with either my 100 or 150 I'll buy one. So far no deal.

    Also, if you want raw files I'll give you a link.

    Regards,

    Victor
    Last edited by vjbelle; 8th July 2014 at 19:52.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Hi-

    I've had an FPS for a little over a year. My use is mostly with the canon TS-E lenses and I get images with no discernable shake with the 17 and 24mm lenses. I've also used other lenses to good effect.

    It seems to me that the best way to measure camera vibration is with instrumentation rather than taking images with all the inherent variables not related directly to camera vibration.

    But in the spirit of the dialog I set up my FPS with a Mamiya MF 500mm f5.6 lens on a light weight Gitzo 1227 tripod. The out door images were 1/45th of second at f11 just taken from my front porch. The bookcase image was 1/2 second.

    The cut outs are at 100%

    as always YMMV


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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    [QUOTE=jimban;590942]Hi-

    It seems to me that the best way to measure camera vibration is with instrumentation rather than taking images with all the inherent variables not related directly to camera vibration.



    I recall the kafuffle around the Sony A7r shake. Some people never did see that in their images, but it was very clear to me (and to others including Victor). On that camera, shutter shake is aggravated by some shutter speed/lens combinations. It remains a major issue for some people. Others could care less.

    Lots of argument and emotion were associated with showing that the A7r does shake enough to degrade images. Funny thing is that some people were surprised by that. While expecting some shake, I was surprised at how bad it could get - even with the camera mounted on a massive studio stand. Now I just avoid those lens/time combos and wait for a better shutter. At least I know what to do to minimize the problem.

    Unlike classic shake, which yields a multi-edge type of effect, the A7r tends to show more of a vibration-induced blur than a discrete resonance. I suspect the Alpa FPS is doing something similar and that is so hard to see without deep pixel peeping in A/B images. Leads to wasted time and name calling.

    As Jimban suggests, a quick MTF determination would demonstrate exactly how much degradation of lens performance the shake is contributing. Why not ask Alpa to provide MTF charts for a few popular lenses comparing the FPS vs leaf shutter? Take a few hours to do and would put the discussion to bed. Then, anyone could decide "Is X% off the MTF an acceptable price to pay for using the FPS?"

    Steve.. can we get this?

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    It's not necessarily true that camera shake is worst with the absolute longest lenses.

    Normally as you get longer the effects of shake are more and more prominent as the same angular movement results in more pixels of subject movement (hence hand holding slow shutter speeds with normal lenses is harder than hand holding short lenses). But depending on the dynamics of the lens mount, at some point as you get to very large lenses, the inertial mass of the lens itself starts to dampen the apparent visual effects of shutter-induced vibration.

    (this is not speculation or commentary on the FPS specifically, only a comment based on the fact that many of the posts here discussing exploration of camera shake have centered on what seems to be a basic assumption that the most ardent test would be with the longest possible lens)
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    It's not necessarily true that camera shake is worst with the absolute longest lenses.
    Well, for sure shake of any kind is mitigated with shorter lenses. As I moved towards my shorter focal lengths the vibration manifestations would decrease accordingly. My 60mm Digitar was just about completely free from any effects. But it is undeniable that shake is there as is evident in my post # 31. Anyone who sees that screen grab has to admit that there is a dramatic difference between the two images - images that were taken 1 minute apart...... the time necessary to open the shutter of the FPS and shoot with the Copal leaf shutter - everything else was identical.

    Regards,

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    It's not necessarily true that camera shake is worst with the absolute longest lenses.

    Normally as you get longer the effects of shake are more and more prominent as the same angular movement results in more pixels of subject movement (hence hand holding slow shutter speeds with normal lenses is harder than hand holding short lenses). But depending on the dynamics of the lens mount, at some point as you get to very large lenses, the inertial mass of the lens itself starts to dampen the apparent visual effects of shutter-induced vibration.

    (this is not speculation or commentary on the FPS specifically, only a comment based on the fact that many of the posts here discussing exploration of camera shake have centered on what seems to be a basic assumption that the most ardent test would be with the longest possible lens)
    I've shot every single one of the Canon big whites - all the way up to the 1200/5.6, and it's a simple fact that the longer the focal length, the more care you have to take to damp down the entire system to prevent vibration from focal plane shutters.

    When you get up to the 800 and 1200, you really need to start seriously thinking about sandbagging the lens down to prevent vibration from almost any source ruining a long-ish exposure shot (and by sandbagging I mean both underneath and on top of the lens barrel). I even had to go so far as to get the AC in a building turned off when shooting from the rooftop with the 1200 once!

    Where I do agree with you is when it comes to the dynamics of the lens mounting system itself.

    What is significant is that the tech lenses do not have any tripod mounting points (nor indeed does the Phase 240LS), so for people shooting with an FPS, you are right in a way because once you start getting above 200mm, pretty much the only option actually involves shooting with lenses such as the Canons or the old Mamiya's, which have feet. In my experience it's this mounting option that is of primary benefit, rather than the additional weight of the lens.

    Not having lens feet on focal lengths in the 150-300 range creates additional challenges, and it was good to see that ALPA are providing some links to solutions from a couple of companies to work around this, although my preference would always be to be able to lock down the lens itself, rather than rely on it just resting on a lens support.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Anyhow...

    Back to the wishlist.

    Built in timelapse and bramping functionality in the FPS pretty please!

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    I've shot every single one of the Canon big whites - all the way up to the 1200/5.6, and it's a simple fact that the longer the focal length, the more care you have to take to damp down the entire system to prevent vibration from focal plane shutters.

    When you get up to the 800 and 1200, you really need to start seriously thinking about sandbagging the lens down to prevent vibration from almost any source ruining a long-ish exposure shot (and by sandbagging I mean both underneath and on top of the lens barrel). I even had to go so far as to get the AC in a building turned off when shooting from the rooftop with the 1200 once!

    Where I do agree with you is when it comes to the dynamics of the lens mounting system itself.

    What is significant is that the tech lenses do not have any tripod mounting points (nor indeed does the Phase 240LS), so for people shooting with an FPS, you are right in a way because once you start getting above 200mm, pretty much the only option actually involves shooting with lenses such as the Canons or the old Mamiya's, which have feet. In my experience it's this mounting option that is of primary benefit, rather than the additional weight of the lens.

    Not having lens feet on focal lengths in the 150-300 range creates additional challenges, and it was good to see that ALPA are providing some links to solutions from a couple of companies to work around this, although my preference would always be to be able to lock down the lens itself, rather than rely on it just resting on a lens support.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    Words of wisdom!!

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Hi Folks

    just one question to Vibelle:

    how would you compare a normal leafshutter solution lens on a Alpa/Arca/Cambo whatever with a long tele over 500mm on an FPS or an HCam ?



    I think there is no way to do that, simply because they can´t be used.
    so whatever complaint there may be (like with the Sony shutter bounce that I never found...!) it´s mostly without substance, as there is no comparison !

    Gerald has shown several times which long stuff he uses, first on his HCam , later on his FPS. Several others of our customers use long teles and unisono the tenor is: never before they had so few problems with vibrations as with an HCam- and I know this same applies to the FPS.

    It´s because of the construction of the body and the masses and the weighing in the housing.
    We have tried this numerous times, result was always the same. many of the MF lenses showed for the first time their real potential, because before the most shots were really spoiled by Mirror slaps, now they just perform to what they were built for.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Folks

    just one question to Vibelle:

    how would you compare a normal leafshutter solution lens on a Alpa/Arca/Cambo whatever with a long tele over 500mm on an FPS or an HCam ?
    I wouldn't because that was not/or will be the crux of my criticism of the FPS.

    Thank you for all of your contributions......

    Victor

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Not sure how this thread drifted from 'Alpa Photokina rumours 2014' to 'FPS shutter shake' - hopefully we can get it back on track now that Photokina is so close. Personally, I'm intrigued as to whether or not there really is a new version of the S/K 100mm in the offing?

    Jim
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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Not a rumor, but a wish: I'd kinda like a version of the Max that could go to something like +/- 35mm on the 'rear' in order to leverage the large image circles of lenses like the S/K 43, 60 and 120. I know there's the XY (that can go +/-25mm on the 'rear' and 45/25 on the 'front'), but it's kinda bulky and heavy, and I never really liked the shock absorber (now, a shock absorber for my wallet would be really good where all things Alpa are concerned).

    Jim

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Remember that with longer lenses like the latest 120, mechanical vignetting is going to rob you of the outer limits of the image circle no matter what camera you stick it on (IIRC it's rated at 150mm, but in Alpa mount it's 'restricted' to something like 110mm). Nevertheless, a smaller camera (than the XY) with +/-25mm of shift would be worth a second look - e.g. just make the Max 14mm 'wider' and expand rear shift to +/-25mm or make it 7mm 'taller' and expand front fall to 25mm (front rise is already at 25mm).

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Words of wisdom

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    I am curious to see if ALPA will introduce an A7R adapter for their 12 series cameras. Does anyone know if this would even work with the flange distance?

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by markymarkrb View Post
    I am curious to see if ALPA will introduce an A7R adapter for their 12 series cameras. Does anyone know if this would even work with the flange distance?
    It should work with SB34 lenses with a spacer.

    jim

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by jimban View Post
    It should work with SB34 lenses with a spacer.

    jim
    I think it would also work with SB17's. I remember when the A7 came out I did some measurements - it's only a couple of mm off working as a back on the FPS (unfortunately the handgrip messes things up).

    I don't think it would take much to modify the A7 and get it working as a digital back - "just" remove the handgrip and reposition the battery/card slot somewhere else

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    I hope Sony could develop a chip of 645 size with the same technology of IQ250/D800E, and Rodenstock could update their ultra wide angle lenses to be CMOS-friendly.

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    . . . . . and Rodenstock could update their ultra wide angle lenses to be CMOS-friendly.
    Could you please explain , what you mean by CMOS-friendly ? ? ?
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: ALPA Rumors 2014

    None of the current crop of WAs from R/S or S/K are great when shifted on the Sony 50MP chip.

    Either the design of the chip has to change (unlikely), P1 has to develop a way in software to deal with the issue (unlikely this can solve 100% of the problem) or there has to be a new generation of WA lenses that are even stronger retrofocus by design, so that the lens is further from the sensor and the light towards the edge of the IC is closer to being perpendicular to the plane of the sensor.

    Unfortunately these lenses will be 1) bigger, 2) heavier and 3) significantly more expensive. However, I don't think we'll ever see another CCD sensor again, so if CMOS is in your future, and you need a WA ... start saving now.

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