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Leica S replacement at Photokina

Daure

Member
Anyway, I agree that it seems highly unlikely that a new S will be introduced with a 'nice price', say around $15.000,- Personally, I'd like that very much because I'd like the S user base to grow some more. As an S2-P owner this would make me feel more secure that the system is going to last for a long time and also because a lower entrance fee into the S system would make it more attractive for working professionals. But knowing Leica, I don't think this low pricing is going to happen.
Hoppefully possible with new competitors in MF
(sony, Canon/phase .....)
 

peterv

New member
Ray, that is exactly what I've been worried about ever since the first speculations about a new S started, for example here:

Next S sensor.. CCD or CMOS??

Back then I wrote:

I know of at least two high profile photographers who say they don't like the (colour-) rendering of the M240 sensor. I tend to agree with them from what I've seen floating around. Maybe if the upcoming S gets a CMOS, Leica should take a long hard look at other sensor manufacturers, besides CMOSIS. After all, we're talking about their flagship camera. Color and IQ should come first.

The last thing the S system needs now is a sensor which is considered 'inferior'. Rightly so, or not.
 

tjv

Active member
Personally, I disagree. You could always downsample, which would give you the same effective performance as now. If I had a choice, I'd go for 60mpx. But hey, I use my camera on a tripod almost exclusively anyway.

Exactly! You would loose all the advantages of the form factor.

Let's not try to turn all MF cameras into high MP tripod and landscape only cameras.
 

coz

New member
How about a Leica S3-CMOS and a S-Monochrom!

I'm about to pull the trigger on the S-006 with the rebate still in effect. However, I think i'll wait to see what they announce.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
How about a Leica S3-CMOS and a S-Monochrom!

I'm about to pull the trigger on the S-006 with the rebate still in effect. However, I think i'll wait to see what they announce.
When does the S-006 Promotion expire?

- Marc
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Leica- just give me the firmware-upgrade for AF improvement for the current Leica S and I don't need any new S.
 

tjv

Active member
With regards to the "megapixel war", how about Leica implement a smaller RAW format, a la the pixel binning that Phase implements? Don't Canon do this too? (I've heard Nikon's implementation is heavily compressed? We wouldn't want that!)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Personally, I disagree. You could always downsample, which would give you the same effective performance as now. If I had a choice, I'd go for 60mpx. But hey, I use my camera on a tripod almost exclusively anyway.
The choice to not to use a tripod with the S camera is exactly the point. Generally, S users have found that at least 2X the focal length is required (more for the 180 and and no coffee:ROTFL:).

I'm not sure I understand the downsampling technique you mentioned. The issue is holding the camera steady enough, and/or using a high enough shutter speed when shooting hand-held, to substantually mitigate or eliminate camera motion blur.

When I shot with my Hasselblad H4D/60 (an even bigger sensor), motion blur was motion blur and it showed up even in an 8X10 (although less obvious than in a 17X22 print or a heavily cropped image).

It will be interesting to see where Leica goes with resolution. It may be an odd number like with the current 37 meg S sensor … maybe 44.7 meg or 47.8 meg or something that places it close to the 50 meg of the competition (if Leica even sees other MFD cameras as "competitors")

If they went to 60 or above I'd be very surprised given the smaller sensor of the S camera. That'd be a pretty small pixel. Their lenses are up to it, but none of them are Image Stabilized so the pressure on technique would increase exponentially.

What would really rock the MFD world would be multiple axis IBIS in a S body … IMO, that would be a compelling reason to pay the premium for a new S camera. Again, more likely from Sony if they ever made a MFD camera using their 50 meg sensor.

- Marc
 

peterv

New member
I agree a modern mirrorless Sony MF body with all the goodies and bells and whistles that could take fully functional S lenses would be someting quite a lot of photographers would welcome. I guess that no-one here and on LuLa thinks that the S lenses are extremely overpriced for the quality they offer. Expensive, yes. But not a bad investment for the coming x years if the S mount was supported by other camera makers.

Maybe Photokina '16 ...

Anyway, what I find puzzling about these new S rumors is that until now there has not been the slightest hint of an invitation for an event or announcement. In fact, the silence from Wetzlar is deafening. I'm sure Leica must be working on a new S, but maybe it's just not ready yet. We'll know more in less than two weeks.
 

GMB

Active member
I skipped S2 to S006 "upgrade" because I considered that the new features were nice to have but not worth the extra costs.

For me, the "mobility" and versatility of the S system is important. It was the main reason why I picked the S and not a back + tech camera (I looked at this alternative quite closely when making my initial purchase decision). So any thing improves that (such as more frames per second, image stabilization etc.) would be great. Conversely, I would be quite critical as regards anything that would reduce the versatility of the system (and this despite the fact that I use the camera more and more often on a tripod).

Similarly, I love the files from the CCD sensor. They have a particular look and feel that makes them come to life. Of course, the sensor has certain limitations, notably as regards is high ISA capability (or lack thereof), and it would be nice if a new model would bring about improvements in this regard. But not for the price of compromising on the base qualities. Frankly, I care less about how a file looks at ISO 2,500 than how it looks at base ISO. And for really low light, I either use a tripod of the MM.

For a couple of years I thought that more MP would be nice, but I am much less certain now. And, if more MP means less versatility: No thank you very much.

As regards price, I have no hope that the new model will be significantly cheaper. And, if yes, I will be presently surprised and :clap::clap: Leica!

Anyway, I planned a stop over at Photokina when returning from a business trip.
 
Considering the S was $1000 less than the S2, I think we might just get a pattern here and the S3 will be too, it's not unreasonable if the camera is going to stay mostly the same but with a sensor technology that's cheaper to manufacture.
 

erlingmm

Active member
An important difference now is the near complete lens lineup for the S system - all lenses in normal + CS versions. The newly released 100 mm f/2 I think can attract many new users to the system.
I am not optimistic about a lower price (although the price of S006 has been lowered by 5000 usd), but a lower S body price could expand the market for the S platform considerably.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Considering the S was $1000 less than the S2, I think we might just get a pattern here and the S3 will be too, it's not unreasonable if the camera is going to stay mostly the same but with a sensor technology that's cheaper to manufacture.
If the 4K video rumor is true, that may keep the price higher.

- Marc
 

JorisV

New member
If the 4K video rumor is true, that may keep the price higher.

- Marc
Good glass keeps it value. The body on the other hand is worth very little after 5 years.

I just saw an S2 body sell on eBay for $4,686.98 and a few days ago an S2P body for $6,800.

Leica should keep the price of the bodies as low as possible to make the entry easier.

Initially people might use legacy glass with adapters, over time I am sure a lot of them will buy the expensive Leica glass.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Good glass keeps it value. The body on the other hand is worth very little after 5 years.

I just saw an S2 body sell on eBay for $4,686.98 and a few days ago an S2P body for $6,800.

Leica should keep the price of the bodies as low as possible to make the entry easier.

Initially people might use legacy glass with adapters, over time I am sure a lot of them will buy the expensive Leica glass.
There isn't a single S2 for that amount on e-bay, and no S2P anywhere near $6,800. May have been the current bid amount perhaps?

Of course it doesn't mean someone didn't fire sale a S camera for what-ever reason (I've seen Rolexes sold during a divorce for a pittance), but most S2s are hovering around $9 to $10K and S2Ps command a bit more. There is one S2 for $6,900 (or more), but there are also some listed as new for 2X that amount (as if:rolleyes:).

This level of depreciation is par for the course for a 6 year old MFD camera (S2 launched in September 2008).

However, cost or ownership and worth are two different concepts.

My S2P was worth every penny I paid for it, and still is. I see no compelling reason to think differently since the investment wasn't in hardware, it was in myself and a capability that allowed me to make the images I wanted … for 4+ years.

It's a bad value only if you don't use the stuff, then sell it for the next shiny new bauble.

As soon as the S 006 drops to under $9K I may get me one, and use my S2P as back-up. Patience is a rewarding characteristic when it comes to higher end digital cameras:lecture:

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Nope, definitely the final offer:

Leica S2 P Body | eBay
Leica S2 SLR Digital Camera Body Only Never Used | eBay

Prices were in the $8-10K range but they seem to be going below that now.
IMO, "Seem To" and "Are" are two different things. Right now nothing is on ebay at that price. So someone did a "fire sale" on a S2 … nothing new about that sort of thing happening with almost anything.

Not that the S2 won't continue depreciating in used price until it hits a stable threshold. If it gets to $4-5K for a mint copy, I'll buy one as back-up/second lens use. I'd like but don't need a type 006, and am highly skeptical regarding a CMOS S.

Sounds like a way to get into the system if you can find one at the lower end of the selling spectrum. It'd be a versatile choice for those with Hasselblad H lenses (dual shutter capable) or a Contax 645 AF lens system to replace an aging Contax 645.

- Marc
 
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