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Thread: Leica S replacement at Photokina

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    Leica S replacement at Photokina

    I know it's only a matter of weeks away, but does anyone out there have any news to share about what the rumored new Leica S camera will be like? I've read rumors of a 40 - 50mpx CMOS sensor, 4K video, etc, but is there any other info floating about cyberspace? I've heard some very credible rumors that the new S will be priced quite a bit lower than the type 006, but have also read some people report it'll be more expensive.
    Anyway, regardless of all this, it's fun to speculate.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Let's just hope that it will be the Sony 50 MP sensor, if the existing lenses do not have issues with CMOS.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    It might be a CMOSIS sensor, like the M240. Actually, I'd kind of respect Leica if they went that way instead of the Sony, providing they put 200% effort into colour and optimising tonal properties over high ISO (if there's a trade off between the two, I don't know.)

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    If Leica could deliver a new body at $15K they would IMO take a very large chunk of the MF market.

    The Phase One IQ250 back plus body is around $40K which is insane.

    Also the Hasselblad historic body is way too expensive with too much respect for historic pricing and still taking the existing CCD product lines into account.

    It all depends on what Leica wants. Do they want more MF market share or are they satisfied to be a luxury brand with very large margins?

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Leica pricing anything "quite a bit lower" is a non sequitur.

    The M lenses just increased in price, the M240 just increased in price, the new M240P was introduced $1,000 higher than the regular M240 introduction price.

    See a pattern here?

    However, I'd be happy to be dead wrong although if the CMOS S is anything like the M240 CMOS, I'll take a pass unless it's under $10K which will happen when Ben & Jerry's is served in Hades.

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Marc,

    The chances are slim I do admit...

    Just stating the over-obvious though. With the competition charging insane prices like $27K and around $40K there is an opportunity to be had to achieve a larger market share.

    People are often stupid but I don't believe they are that stupid that they will keep on paying those amounts for CMOS sensors…

    Best, Joris.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    IF Leica gets out a 50mp CMOS Leica S I would not expect it to be under $20,000. Might be closer to $30k. Would be great if they sold it for $15,000 or less but that is highly unlikely. Leica is not know for high value items.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    When Leica 1st introduced the M240, many were pleasantly surprised at its $6995 (US $) price point after some having predicted a price upwards of possibly $7900 or higher. This was especially true after hearing of its feature set.

    I have a feeling Leica will do the same with a new CMOS based Leica S body, pricing it near or just below the current Leica S body...surprising some once again.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    I would be really really surprised if they used directly the Sony chip, since it's not the right form factor. Leica invented the 3:2 aspect ratio, and they are not a company that forgets it's history...
    Perhaps a custom Sony development ? Or a CMOSIS...

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Well, I do hope they price the new S lower than the type 006. I've heard mumblings from people both ways, so I won't hold my breath. Personally, I'm more interested in a back to mount on my tech camera, but the S is certainly attractive for being completely weather sealed and with a set of stunning lenses. In many ways, it'd be six of one, half a dozen of the other for me. The two times I've demoed the S I loved it, but that before they had a descent lens lineup.

    An few things that I'd like to see in the new S:

    1: Proper duel memory card support, with DNG's saving to both simultaneously.
    2: At least 50mpx. I know the rumours state between 40 and 50mpx, but I'd prefer higher.
    3: Multi-point AF, and not all clustered in the centre of frame.
    4: Well implemented live view
    5: 4K video would be nice, but I don't really care for it. If I had it though, I'd use it.
    6: Not a body related issue, but I'd LOVE to see high quality, Leica designed and made tilt-shift options at 60-70mm and 30mm. In conjunction with live-view, this would kill my need for a tech camera.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Morning

    My big hope is that the new S has a positive affect on prices for the 006! I've been using an S2 for the last few weeks thanks to a friend and love the files, if the current S will just drop a little in price I can afford a decent kit. I have no need for video, I've been reliably informed that the new model will have 4k so hopefully those that do need it will upgrade and I can pick up a bargain.

    Mat

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Frankly, when it comes to a new S camera, I'm torn between what would look good on paper and what would be of actual use in practice.

    Going to CMOS would allow additional capabilities on one hand, but it would mean starting over on the whole process of making the most of the files again, (a process I've grown weary of doing every few years). It took quite a while for the CCD S to get it all sorted out same for the M8, then the initial M9, then the switch to the CMOSIS M240 (which I personally feel is still not optimally sorted out).

    Having lived with the S2P now for years as my prime camera system, I've found that it deftly walks the line between high resolution imagery and versatility of applications. Like many others have said in past, 40 meg may have been the watershed for MFD versatility, beyond which you start getting very specific in application. The form factor of the current S makes it a hand-holdable camera which is one of its strengths, but tough enough to do at 37 meg, let alone 60.

    Granted, a higher ISO capability would mitigate that to some degree, but only if Leica's CMOS sensor is spectacular at ISOs above 800 in order to gain the shutter speed needed. Personally, I'm skeptical of that at least for the first year or two that a new CMOS version is available and they get it better sorted out.

    I'd expect Leica to initially offer the CMOS S at a comparable price to the Type 006 when it was first offered ($22,000) but would pleasantly surprised if it was $20,000 or less no, make that pleasantly shocked!

    However, I do not think comparing the S pricing structure with the M240's at launch is apples-to-apples. Leica could count on a certain volume of Ms to spread out the R&D for the new CMOSIS sensor and resulting expanded feature set. The S doesn't have that base of users ready to upgrade to every new iteration of the S camera like they do with the M.

    That a new S could bring in new users based on price is not in their DNA. Besides, one has to factor in the cost of the lenses which is breath-taking, and are increasing in price.

    New higher resolution CMOS/CMOSIS sensor, live view, 4K video, dual slot RAW capture, etc. for a lower price seems unlikely. Possible, but not probable.

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 4th September 2014 at 00:22.
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Morning

    My big hope is that the new S has a positive affect on prices for the 006! I've been using an S2 for the last few weeks thanks to a friend and love the files, if the current S will just drop a little in price I can afford a decent kit. I have no need for video, I've been reliably informed that the new model will have 4k so hopefully those that do need it will upgrade and I can pick up a bargain.

    Mat
    I thought I read somewhere that Leica extended the S type 006 promotion where they give you $5,000 off the price for a trade-in of any DSLR.(?)

    - Marc

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    My Leica dealer tells me the new one will be "significantly more expensive" than the current S which will remain in the product line,although they may have put this info out to encouraging sales of the current S.

    I would like to see USB 3 in the new body and long exposure ability.the current camera's 2min max exposure time covers most things but long exposure ability of least 10 mins would be a bonus.

    Anyone else interested in a touch screen menu?

    Rob

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    My Leica dealer tells me the new one will be "significantly more expensive" than the current S which will remain in the product line,although they may have put this info out to encouraging sales of the current S.

    I would like to see USB 3 in the new body and long exposure ability.the current camera's 2min max exposure time covers most things but long exposure ability of least 10 mins would be a bonus.

    Anyone else interested in a touch screen menu?

    Rob
    This sounds to be more in line with Leica's history.

    The bonus would be if they reduced the S Type 006 price a bit in a similar manner they did with the Leica ME.

    Personally, I'm not interested in a touch screen. The current S interface is brilliantly simple which is one its most endearing user features.

    However, what would rip through the MFD world is if they up-sized the Leica T concept to take S lenses (sans the hand polishing). But that's more Sony's speculative territory, considering they already have the sensor.

    A 50 meg Sony mirror-less body that took adapted S lenses would even be a good thing for Leica, since optics is what they do best and they get a king's ransom for each of their S lenses.

    Dream on Marc, dream on

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Actually, if be very keen for USB3 tethering and wifi tethering to iPad, but loathe touch screen interfaces (he types on his iPhone!)
    Looking forward to announcements. When is Photokina again?

    Ps: any hints about new S lenses coming?

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    What I find most interesting, is that less than two weeks before Photokina, there is very little - if anything - to base speculations on. I wonder why this is so?

    With most, if not all of the competition moving to CMOS, it seems likely Leica will come with an updated S. But it almost feels a little worrying that so far nothing has leaked, yet. Of course it's much harder for Sony or CaNikon, etc. to keep a secret since there are hundreds, maybe thousands of co-workers involved in producing a new camera, whereas the Leica S team is very small. At most a few dozen, I estimate.

    Anyway, I agree that it seems highly unlikely that a new S will be introduced with a 'nice price', say around $15.000,- Personally, I'd like that very much because I'd like the S user base to grow some more. As an S2-P owner this would make me feel more secure that the system is going to last for a long time and also because a lower entrance fee into the S system would make it more attractive for working professionals. But knowing Leica, I don't think this low pricing is going to happen.

    The next few weeks are hopefully going to be interesting. I won't be upgrading since I bought my camera and the 70 + 120 only 1,5 year ago and ... I'm broke
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The form factor of the current S makes it a hand-holdable camera which is one of its strengths, but tough enough to do at 37 meg, let alone 60.
    Exactly! You would loose all the advantages of the form factor.

    Let's not try to turn all MF cameras into high MP tripod and landscape only cameras.
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Granted, a higher ISO capability would mitigate that to some degree, but only if Leica's CMOS sensor is spectacular at ISOs above 800 in order to gain the shutter speed needed. Personally, I'm skeptical of that at least for the first year or two that a new CMOS version is available and they get it better sorted out.
    If Leica stick with CMOSIS for their bigger CMOS sensors, I'm more than skeptical - I am certain that it won't deliver where Sony and Canon CMOS sensors currently deliver - low noise high ISO, and low noise long exposures. I am not at all impressed with CMOSIS' tech - if we take the datasheet for the CMV20000 sensor (35mm full-frame, 20MP), we see that the quantum efficiency curve, readout noise, and dark current are all sub-par.

    So let's hope that when the S goes CMOS, it goes Sony CMOS.

    Ray

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    If Leica stick with CMOSIS for their bigger CMOS sensors, I'm more than skeptical - I am certain that it won't deliver where Sony and Canon CMOS sensors currently deliver - low noise high ISO, and low noise long exposures. I am not at all impressed with CMOSIS' tech - if we take the datasheet for the CMV20000 sensor (35mm full-frame, 20MP), we see that the quantum efficiency curve, readout noise, and dark current are all sub-par.

    So let's hope that when the S goes CMOS, it goes Sony CMOS.

    Ray
    +100

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by peterv View Post
    Anyway, I agree that it seems highly unlikely that a new S will be introduced with a 'nice price', say around $15.000,- Personally, I'd like that very much because I'd like the S user base to grow some more. As an S2-P owner this would make me feel more secure that the system is going to last for a long time and also because a lower entrance fee into the S system would make it more attractive for working professionals. But knowing Leica, I don't think this low pricing is going to happen.
    Hoppefully possible with new competitors in MF
    (sony, Canon/phase .....)

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Ray, that is exactly what I've been worried about ever since the first speculations about a new S started, for example here:

    Next S sensor.. CCD or CMOS??

    Back then I wrote:

    I know of at least two high profile photographers who say they don't like the (colour-) rendering of the M240 sensor. I tend to agree with them from what I've seen floating around. Maybe if the upcoming S gets a CMOS, Leica should take a long hard look at other sensor manufacturers, besides CMOSIS. After all, we're talking about their flagship camera. Color and IQ should come first.

    The last thing the S system needs now is a sensor which is considered 'inferior'. Rightly so, or not.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Personally, I disagree. You could always downsample, which would give you the same effective performance as now. If I had a choice, I'd go for 60mpx. But hey, I use my camera on a tripod almost exclusively anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Exactly! You would loose all the advantages of the form factor.

    Let's not try to turn all MF cameras into high MP tripod and landscape only cameras.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    How about a Leica S3-CMOS and a S-Monochrom!

    I'm about to pull the trigger on the S-006 with the rebate still in effect. However, I think i'll wait to see what they announce.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by coz View Post
    How about a Leica S3-CMOS and a S-Monochrom!

    I'm about to pull the trigger on the S-006 with the rebate still in effect. However, I think i'll wait to see what they announce.
    When does the S-006 Promotion expire?

    - Marc

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Leica- just give me the firmware-upgrade for AF improvement for the current Leica S and I don't need any new S.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Leica- just give me the firmware-upgrade for AF improvement for the current Leica S and I don't need any new S.
    They just did.

    - Marc

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    When does the S-006 Promotion expire?

    - Marc
    Initially June 30th, but I believe it was extended till September 30th.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    With regards to the "megapixel war", how about Leica implement a smaller RAW format, a la the pixel binning that Phase implements? Don't Canon do this too? (I've heard Nikon's implementation is heavily compressed? We wouldn't want that!)

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Personally, I disagree. You could always downsample, which would give you the same effective performance as now. If I had a choice, I'd go for 60mpx. But hey, I use my camera on a tripod almost exclusively anyway.
    The choice to not to use a tripod with the S camera is exactly the point. Generally, S users have found that at least 2X the focal length is required (more for the 180 and and no coffee).

    I'm not sure I understand the downsampling technique you mentioned. The issue is holding the camera steady enough, and/or using a high enough shutter speed when shooting hand-held, to substantually mitigate or eliminate camera motion blur.

    When I shot with my Hasselblad H4D/60 (an even bigger sensor), motion blur was motion blur and it showed up even in an 8X10 (although less obvious than in a 17X22 print or a heavily cropped image).

    It will be interesting to see where Leica goes with resolution. It may be an odd number like with the current 37 meg S sensor maybe 44.7 meg or 47.8 meg or something that places it close to the 50 meg of the competition (if Leica even sees other MFD cameras as "competitors")

    If they went to 60 or above I'd be very surprised given the smaller sensor of the S camera. That'd be a pretty small pixel. Their lenses are up to it, but none of them are Image Stabilized so the pressure on technique would increase exponentially.

    What would really rock the MFD world would be multiple axis IBIS in a S body IMO, that would be a compelling reason to pay the premium for a new S camera. Again, more likely from Sony if they ever made a MFD camera using their 50 meg sensor.

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    I agree a modern mirrorless Sony MF body with all the goodies and bells and whistles that could take fully functional S lenses would be someting quite a lot of photographers would welcome. I guess that no-one here and on LuLa thinks that the S lenses are extremely overpriced for the quality they offer. Expensive, yes. But not a bad investment for the coming x years if the S mount was supported by other camera makers.

    Maybe Photokina '16 ...

    Anyway, what I find puzzling about these new S rumors is that until now there has not been the slightest hint of an invitation for an event or announcement. In fact, the silence from Wetzlar is deafening. I'm sure Leica must be working on a new S, but maybe it's just not ready yet. We'll know more in less than two weeks.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    I skipped S2 to S006 "upgrade" because I considered that the new features were nice to have but not worth the extra costs.

    For me, the "mobility" and versatility of the S system is important. It was the main reason why I picked the S and not a back + tech camera (I looked at this alternative quite closely when making my initial purchase decision). So any thing improves that (such as more frames per second, image stabilization etc.) would be great. Conversely, I would be quite critical as regards anything that would reduce the versatility of the system (and this despite the fact that I use the camera more and more often on a tripod).

    Similarly, I love the files from the CCD sensor. They have a particular look and feel that makes them come to life. Of course, the sensor has certain limitations, notably as regards is high ISA capability (or lack thereof), and it would be nice if a new model would bring about improvements in this regard. But not for the price of compromising on the base qualities. Frankly, I care less about how a file looks at ISO 2,500 than how it looks at base ISO. And for really low light, I either use a tripod of the MM.

    For a couple of years I thought that more MP would be nice, but I am much less certain now. And, if more MP means less versatility: No thank you very much.

    As regards price, I have no hope that the new model will be significantly cheaper. And, if yes, I will be presently surprised and Leica!

    Anyway, I planned a stop over at Photokina when returning from a business trip.
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Considering the S was $1000 less than the S2, I think we might just get a pattern here and the S3 will be too, it's not unreasonable if the camera is going to stay mostly the same but with a sensor technology that's cheaper to manufacture.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    An important difference now is the near complete lens lineup for the S system - all lenses in normal + CS versions. The newly released 100 mm f/2 I think can attract many new users to the system.
    I am not optimistic about a lower price (although the price of S006 has been lowered by 5000 usd), but a lower S body price could expand the market for the S platform considerably.
    - ErlingMM

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Considering the S was $1000 less than the S2, I think we might just get a pattern here and the S3 will be too, it's not unreasonable if the camera is going to stay mostly the same but with a sensor technology that's cheaper to manufacture.
    If the 4K video rumor is true, that may keep the price higher.

    - Marc

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If the 4K video rumor is true, that may keep the price higher.

    - Marc
    Good glass keeps it value. The body on the other hand is worth very little after 5 years.

    I just saw an S2 body sell on eBay for $4,686.98 and a few days ago an S2P body for $6,800.

    Leica should keep the price of the bodies as low as possible to make the entry easier.

    Initially people might use legacy glass with adapters, over time I am sure a lot of them will buy the expensive Leica glass.
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If the 4K video rumor is true, that may keep the price higher.

    - Marc
    I wonder if that 4K video is like the 4K interval video of the Pentax 645z.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Good glass keeps it value. The body on the other hand is worth very little after 5 years.

    I just saw an S2 body sell on eBay for $4,686.98 and a few days ago an S2P body for $6,800.

    Leica should keep the price of the bodies as low as possible to make the entry easier.

    Initially people might use legacy glass with adapters, over time I am sure a lot of them will buy the expensive Leica glass.
    There isn't a single S2 for that amount on e-bay, and no S2P anywhere near $6,800. May have been the current bid amount perhaps?

    Of course it doesn't mean someone didn't fire sale a S camera for what-ever reason (I've seen Rolexes sold during a divorce for a pittance), but most S2s are hovering around $9 to $10K and S2Ps command a bit more. There is one S2 for $6,900 (or more), but there are also some listed as new for 2X that amount (as if).

    This level of depreciation is par for the course for a 6 year old MFD camera (S2 launched in September 2008).

    However, cost or ownership and worth are two different concepts.

    My S2P was worth every penny I paid for it, and still is. I see no compelling reason to think differently since the investment wasn't in hardware, it was in myself and a capability that allowed me to make the images I wanted for 4+ years.

    It's a bad value only if you don't use the stuff, then sell it for the next shiny new bauble.

    As soon as the S 006 drops to under $9K I may get me one, and use my S2P as back-up. Patience is a rewarding characteristic when it comes to higher end digital cameras

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    There isn't a single S2 for that amount on e-bay, and no S2P anywhere near $6,800. May have been the current bid amount perhaps?
    - Marc
    Nope, definitely the final offer:

    Leica S2 P Body | eBay
    Leica S2 SLR Digital Camera Body Only Never Used | eBay

    Prices were in the $8-10K range but they seem to be going below that now.

  40. #40
    Super Duper
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Nope, definitely the final offer:

    Leica S2 P Body | eBay
    Leica S2 SLR Digital Camera Body Only Never Used | eBay

    Prices were in the $8-10K range but they seem to be going below that now.
    IMO, "Seem To" and "Are" are two different things. Right now nothing is on ebay at that price. So someone did a "fire sale" on a S2 nothing new about that sort of thing happening with almost anything.

    Not that the S2 won't continue depreciating in used price until it hits a stable threshold. If it gets to $4-5K for a mint copy, I'll buy one as back-up/second lens use. I'd like but don't need a type 006, and am highly skeptical regarding a CMOS S.

    Sounds like a way to get into the system if you can find one at the lower end of the selling spectrum. It'd be a versatile choice for those with Hasselblad H lenses (dual shutter capable) or a Contax 645 AF lens system to replace an aging Contax 645.

    - Marc

  41. #41
    Member David Duffin's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    I suspect that Leica's undoubtedly significant investment in the design and inhouse manufacturing of the T-series -- CMOS, mirrorless, EVF, video, new UI technology -- likely portends the future direction of S development. Perhaps not at this Photokina, but I'll bet at the next one we'll see a totally redesigned body shaped to accomodate the great S-series lenses.

    Can't happen soon enough for me :~)

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Nope, definitely the final offer:

    Leica S2 P Body | eBay
    Leica S2 SLR Digital Camera Body Only Never Used | eBay

    Prices were in the $8-10K range but they seem to be going below that now.
    I'd be suspicious of the Canadian listing. Only 4 previous sales by the seller - ALL dvd's. Wouldn't touch that sale.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by dennishuang View Post
    I wonder if that 4K video is like the 4K interval video of the Pentax 645z.
    Here's a link to some additional info/rumors regarding 4K video and large sensors, FWIW.


    Leica S medium format camera to feature 4K video | EOSHD.com

  44. #44
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wood View Post
    Here's a link to some additional info/rumors regarding 4K video and large sensors, FWIW.


    Leica S medium format camera to feature 4K video | EOSHD.com
    Well, that article seems to indicate use of a Sony sensor IF the 4K video rumor comes true. Makes sense actually.

    - Marc

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Leica have bought out out a fantastic set of cine lenses ...I wonder if they would be able to be hooked up to the new 4K S?

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Leica have bought out out a fantastic set of cine lenses ...I wonder if they would be able to be hooked up to the new 4K S?
    The cine lenses wouldn't get anywhere close to covering a medium format sensor.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Leica have bought out out a fantastic set of cine lenses ...I wonder if they would be able to be hooked up to the new 4K S?
    I know they had one mounted on the M last year:

  48. #48
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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    The cine lenses wouldn't get anywhere close to covering a medium format sensor.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
    True. I think the widest sensor of the digital cinema cameras is the red dragon sensor and it is 30.7mm wide. (baring the Panavision 70mm camera and the supposedly upcoming Arri 70mm digital cinema camera) Most are less than that.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    I would have thought that the CINE lenses had much to small image circle for the S sensor, plus flange distance would be too large.

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    Re: Leica S replacement at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by rgaishadah View Post
    the Hasselblad historic body is way too expensive with too much respect for historic pricing
    Huh?

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