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Thread: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

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    Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    At last I got some raw test files including LCCs for tech ultrawides for a Hasselblad back using the KAF-51000 CCD sensor (50.3 megapixel 47x39mm). It exists in the CFV-50 (recently discontinued) and the current H5D-50, and the older H4D-50 and H3DII-50, plus all the various multishot versions, H5D-200MS most recent.

    This sensor has 6 um pixels just as the Dalsa sensors used in most current Leaf and Phase One backs, but has a few important differences. 1) it lacks microlenses, 2) it has much stronger shielding between adjacent pixels, 3) there is no tiling.

    Looking at results from SK28 (the most extreme tech wide angle lens ever designed in terms of angular response) shifted all the way to the 90mm image circle edge I was really surprised with the result. There are none of the issues the Dalsa sensor is plagued with. Crosstalk is minimal (not visible), there is no tiling no matter how you pull the contrast, no microlens ripple (of course), color cast is there of course but certainly managable. As the sensor shields its pixels instead of crosstalking there's quite much pixel vignetting though, 2 2/3 stops at the 90mm edge (about 1 stop with the crosstalkin' Dalsa), so in tough light conditions with shadowy parts at the edge you may want to bracket.

    I think this is pretty revolutionary results. Why? While backs with this sensor has existed since 2008, I had no idea until now that the Hasselblad 50s worked so well with tech wides, while the ubiquitous 6um Dalsa is plagued with issues and I've seen Capture One bending backwards to fixup microlens ripple, residual tiling (and indeed bent myself backwards to fix this in the LCC algorithm in Lumariver HDR I develop) and not always succeeding 100%, and certainly leaving crosstalk desaturation behind and sometimes even demosaicing failure. Resulting in people giving up the traditional designs and going for the more expensive retrofocus Rodenstocks.

    Certainly many are happy with that, and the more complex Rodenstocks wides are indeed sharper when peeping, but among us that are still on legacy backs and happens to like symmetrical distortion free designs (both for how they render the image and the lower weight and price) this opens up an opportunity. As an alterantive to the "Phase One and only upgrade path" one can get one of the 50 megapixel Hasselblads, get some more resolution and perhaps more importantly buy a number of more years of time hoping for new sensor technology to arrive that better support tech cams (like a larger CMOS with wide angular response).

    This is not only about the SK28 and SK35, although it's more evident on those. Also the 43XL, 47XL and 60XL through their super-large image circles push the Dalsa sensors into trouble space if you're the type that shift large amounts. With the Kodak 50 megapixel - no issues.

    I find it surprising that Hasselblad marketing has not pushed this advantage more. Oh well, not too surprised, it's quite obvious that they're clueless when it comes to tech cams. But it's a bit sad that they have missed this opportunity to seriously compete with Phase One in the tech cam sector. I am myself a highly technical user (as I also write imaging software) so the fact that I have missed this performance advantage should surely mean that many/most others in the tech cam community have too.

    In the future I hope more people will be aware of this option though when thinking about upgrading your legacy 22/33/39 megapixel back.
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Very interesting . Thank you .
    I will take care of my CFV-50 , which I like very much .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    I was aware that the 50mp Kodak sensor was better on a tech cam than the 40mp, because the 50mp version has no microlenses. However, I was not aware of the differences you mention between Dalsa and Kodak 50mp CCD sensors, very interesting.

    Just as well, given I am about to mount the back from my Hasselblad H5D-200MS on a technical camera!

    By the way, I suspect the reason Hasselblad don't push the point is because their backs are sold as part of a complete camera system, whereas Phase One backs can more easily be purchased separately.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    I've been looking back and forth between CFV-50, Aptus-II 10 or even P65+ as a possible next step. With this newly acquired knowledge the CFV-50 is back as a top alternative. I just need to stop with my pixel-peep chimping habit I've got by owning an Aptus.

    Alternatively, if I go all the way to a H4D-50 I get a screen useful for pixel-chimping too, but need a third-party external battery, like Quantum Turbo 3 (which may not necessarily be a drawback).

    H5D-50 has a battery adapter in the product line so it can be used in tech cam mode without third-party power, which is at least a little sign that they again look at technical cameras a little bit more seriously.

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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    I think Silvestri make a power pack for Hassy cameras too. I will probably use Hasselblad's own power pack designed for the H5 series backs. I have shortened my tech cam list down to one - an Arca-Swiss Rm3di.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    i used to use the Quantum turbo 3; works great and can also power other usb devices, like your phone, and of course the Quantum flash

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I was aware that the 50mp Kodak sensor was better on a tech cam than the 40mp, because the 50mp version has no microlenses. However, I was not aware of the differences you mention between Dalsa and Kodak 50mp CCD sensors, very interesting.

    Just as well, given I am about to mount the back from my Hasselblad H5D-200MS on a technical camera!

    can more easily be purchased separately.
    I DID say on LuLa that the 28mm would work fine on your camera because it doesn't have micro lenses.
    www.endacavanagh.com
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Well done, Torger.

    Sadly, this would not be the first time that manufacturers (and vendors) of MFD equipment weren't even aware of key advantages, or limitations, of their own gear!

    Ray

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    I have been having extremely rewarding results with my H5D50 on my tech cam, yet I freely admit I didn't know the results were revolutionary.
    Stanley

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enda Cavanagh View Post
    I DID say on LuLa that the 28mm would work fine on your camera because it doesn't have micro lenses.
    I've probably read it too... but it didn't stick at that time :-\

    But now when I'm very familiar with the crosstalk problem (ie not correctable with any normal LCC process), and able to compare side by side the SK28 extreme-shifted on Dalsa 6um, and same lens on Kodak 6um, it all became so obvious -- the Hasselblad CCD 50 megapixel backs are very under-appreciated as tech cam backs.

    It's unfortunate that Phase One never produced a P50+ back (which then probably would have been long exposure, something Hasselblad hasn't been able to provide), but I guess all effort was on the collaboration with Dalsa and wanting to phase out the "inbetweener" 49x37mm size.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Some years ago I was fed up with my H3D50 and (especially) Phocus for use on Alpa and AS Monlith cameras. I decided to try an IQ180. During that period I also evaluated an H4D50MS.

    Initially it seemed simple. Dump the 'Blad and get the Phase - and my lenses were all Rodies so the 80MP problems seemed acceptable. Then I worked with the MS. My God what images. Not so much the resolution, which was great, but the colors and pixel integrity. Hard to define but my eyes just went "aahh" and relaxed looking at MS. I am seriously tempted to get another MS back, though everything I have is Phase now.

    Point is that Hasselblad has the only modern MS solution today, and they are doing next to nothing with it. It remains a very "specialized" option. Given the spectacular image quality, that puzzles me. Realize economies of scale and put MS in everything. Take stance as "the beautiful image company". Worked for you before. Users are free to ignore MS and its little foibles until they need it. Oh yes, and fix up Phocus.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    I have been having extremely rewarding results with my H5D50 on my tech cam, yet I freely admit I didn't know the results were revolutionary.


    Many prefer the Rodenstock Digarons because of the better sharpness and don't mind the extra cost, weight and distortion, and would thus choose them anyway. With those lenses the Dalsa performs well, and on paper with a bit better dynamic range and color separation than Kodak (but I rarely see people complain about Hasselblad colors although they use this "inferior" sensor, so in practice I see no issue there).

    However, for us on 22/33/39 megapixel backs with the angst "if I upgrade I'll downgrade my current lens performance, or I'll have to buy new costly lenses with design properties I don't really like that much", knowing about the Hasselblad option is kind of revolutionary, there actually is a back you can upgrade to and keep the rest of the gear intact.

    It's also a good alternative to present to first time buyers. A Hasselblad 50 and SK wides can depending on deals be a considerably more attractive package than a Phase One IQ160 and Rodie wides, and not far behind in practical image quality.

    The greatest weakness in this offer today is that CFV-50 just got discontinued (which in relative terms was attractively priced), and the H5D-50 cannot be bought without the camera (I think), so it's not actually that much cheaper than a IQ160 standalone back. In the pre-owned and second hand market better deals can be made though.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I think Silvestri make a power pack for Hassy cameras too. I will probably use Hasselblad's own power pack designed for the H5 series backs. I have shortened my tech cam list down to one - an Arca-Swiss Rm3di.
    Last evening, I shot 137 images on my H5D50 back with the Rm3di and still had battery power left....although. I don't know how much....I wish there was some way to get that data
    As I have said on other threads, it only takes about ten seconds to change a Sony battery...they are small and cheap...I carry a spare in my pocket
    Stanley

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Incidentally, the US representative for Arca is a guy named Rod Klukus. Although I have never met him, I have called and emailed him for advice; he has always been almost immediately responsive and helpful. As Torger has pointed out, Hasselblad including most of their reps are not especially knowledgeable regarding Tech cams, but Rod fills in the gaps
    Stanley

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    Incidentally, the US representative for Arca is a guy named Rod Klukus. Although I have never met him, I have called and emailed him for advice; he has always been almost immediately responsive and helpful. As Torger has pointed out, Hasselblad including most of their reps are not especially knowledgeable regarding Tech cams, but Rod fills in the gaps
    Stanley
    Can you PM me his contact details?

    Thanks

    Quentin
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Rod, who is a regular contributor to this site and others, you can reach him here:

    Rod Klukas
    US Representative
    Arca-Swiss International
    480-755-3364
    [email protected]

    He is a great resource on the Arca tech camera lineup.

    Paul
    Paul Caldwell
    [email protected]
    www.photosofarkansas.com
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Another thing I forgot to mention, the Kodak sensor is stable both in horizontal and vertical orientation. In the test images I've got I have shift all the way to the edge in vertical orientation, but a bit milder shift in horizontal, still enough to quite safely make the claim that there is no significant difference between horizontal and vertical.

    On Dalsa, and indeed the Sony CMOS, there's a large difference between vertical and horizontal.

    I need red-filtered (or blue) LCC shots to measure the actual amount of crosstalk, but even with white ones I can get an indication by looking on how much the greens separate (one green gets leaks from red, the other from blue). With the H4D-50 tested here on the SK28 I get about 2% difference (I have the detection limit set to 1.5%, meaning there's crosstalk, but it's very low), with a Credo 40, which has Dalsa 6 um sensor, I get 50%. Just as an indication of the magnitude in difference.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Suddenly I am very glad I chose a Hassy with a Kodak CCD sensor...
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post


    The greatest weakness in this offer today is that CFV-50 just got discontinued (which in relative terms was attractively priced), and the H5D-50 cannot be bought without the camera (I think), so it's not actually that much cheaper than a IQ160 standalone back. In the pre-owned and second hand market better deals can be made though.
    Don't forget you can get the H4D 50 and a much lower price again the screen's the same. The sensor is the same. The ISO performance is the same as is the max shutter speed

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Good point, the H4D-50 is officially discontinued though, but I guess there are pre-owned deals.

    One more note about these backs is that with today's standards they probably have the noisiest shadows around. Not by a big margin and not any worse than your 22/33/39 megapixel back, but if you're the kind of photographer that constantly battle with shadow noise in your post-processing, this is probably not the number one back. The recent Dalsa-based backs and especially the new Sony CMOS backs are much better, but then you have those other issues. You can't have it all.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I think Silvestri make a power pack for Hassy cameras too. I will probably use Hasselblad's own power pack designed for the H5 series backs. I have shortened my tech cam list down to one - an Arca-Swiss Rm3di.
    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Good point, the H4D-50 is officially discontinued though, but I guess there are pre-owned deals.

    One more note about these backs is that with today's standards they probably have the noisiest shadows around. Not by a big margin and not any worse than your 22/33/39 megapixel back, but if you're the kind of photographer that constantly battle with shadow noise in your post-processing, this is probably not the number one back. The recent Dalsa-based backs and especially the new Sony CMOS backs are much better, but then you have those other issues. You can't have it all.
    One can eliminate the noise almost completely in Phocus.
    Read the Ohocus Manuel to learn how to reduce/eliminate he noise
    Stanley

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    That was one thing about Kodak, the mundane stuff like color, they just got it right. Unfortunately, TrueSense seems to be out of the camera business. I like my Kodak CCD.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    The Breakers, the Cornelius Vanderbilt house in Newport, taken in great light this afternoon with the H5D50 and the Arca Swiss Rm3di back and the Rodenstock 32mm lens with one degree tilt.
    Stanley
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    The samples I've seen – supplied generously by forum members here, and Hasselblad themselves – shot on a tech camera on the CFV-50 / H4D-50 back are stunning.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    I used my CFV39 on a Technikardan 23 with wides to long glass with extreme movements and had no problems. I don't believe the sensor has micro lenses either. In any case it performed very well.

    I'm actually selling it through Popflash if anyone is interested. It's mint with all the goodies. Low frame count too.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Shush,
    Hasselblad is bad. It is a closed system ! Didn't you read all about it on LuLa?
    Ciao,
    Giorgio Niro
    www.giorgioniro.com
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Wow! Did the SK28mm have a center filter attached?

    best,

    geb

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Yes, it will require center filter. The sensor does not crosstalk much, but instead vignettes so even with center filter you lose a couple of stops to the edge.

    Here's an image that illustrates crosstalk:



    this is when the angle is large enough so you get a leak over to the next pixel. However if the angle is smaller it instead hits the light shield and it does not get registered, this is "pixel vignetting". The Dalsa doesn't seem to have much of a light shield at all, thus you have less pixel vignetting than the Kodak, but instead a massive amount of crosstalk on the symmetric wides.

    If the Kodak has had the same low noise levels on the shadows as the new Sony CMOS MF sensor the pixel vignetting on the SK28 would be a non-issue. Unfortunately Kodak is among the noisier sensors with today's standards which means that in some occassions you might want to bracket and merge to get the image quality you want.

    Another more elegant solution would be to use a stronger center filter which also compensates for the pixel vignetting. The current center filter is 2 stops (which actually is a 0.5 stops weaker than the Rodenstock 32 filter, so the 28 is most likely a bit undercorrected), and this sensor would need a 4-4.5 stop center filter to function optimally. There is no such filter on the market though, and you would get an awfully dark image if you focus on ground glass.

    Another option to shoot this lens is to skip the center filter and always bracket for your large-shifted images. As it's a 4 stop difference or so with this sensor, you'd probably shoot three images, 0 +2 and +4 stops. There can be a good reason to do so as a center filter on a lens this extremely wide is prone for reflections and contrast issues.
    Last edited by torger; 6th September 2014 at 06:17.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Just want to thank Torger for his continued research. Since he's started working on these MFDB issues, his thinking is a real substantive contribution. Much appreciated.
    www.gigi-photos.com
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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Just want to thank Torger for his continued research. Since he's started working on these MFDB issues, his thinking is a real substantive contribution. Much appreciated.
    +1

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Just want to thank Torger for his continued research. Since he's started working on these MFDB issues, his thinking is a real substantive contribution. Much appreciated.
    +1 absolutely.

    Phase One / Leaf and Hasselblad should all hang their heads in shame. Last time I checked there were about a 'staggering' 12 or so lenses in the (latest) range of 23 - 60 from S/K and R/S designed for digital use. When you're asking $30k - $40k for your product, would it be too much to ask for just a couple of days testing with these so that potential buyers are fully informed as to exactly how that new DB being promoted is going to perform? Yes, users of these lenses are a small % overall, but they're the ones left in the dark. For $30k - $40k a pop, surely they can afford to find someone to switch the lights on.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Can't speak to Hasselblad, but Phase One for US customers, has done an OK job with their dealer channel. Phase is setup that way and I don't feel you are ever going to see much more reach out.

    Digital Transitions and Capture Integration both offer a lot of information on the various tech cameras and lenses. Both offer software tools and demos. I realize that if you don't live close to one of their dealer locations, getting a demo can be a bit difficult.

    I have to also say, that I finally was able to pull down the article that Quentin pointed to on Hasselbald and their tech offerings and overall besides being a bit dated on available cameras, the info was very well presented and informative. A lot of good solutions were listed and mapped out very well.

    The "crosstalk" phenomenon has never been indorsed by any dealer or manufacturer of MFD that I have seen. Not to say that means that is doesn't exist, it's just that very little has been published by the camera companies that I can find. No doubt the effect is real and Torger's work does go a long way to explaining both the cause and ways to get around it. In fact "crosstalk" didn't seem to exist on the web forums until the IQ250 shots started to show up, even though it's been a problem with the 60MP and 80MP backs from day one. I however always assumed this loss of color/saturation was due instead to the lens/image circle and not the chip design.

    It's always a trade off, and for me, the massive increase in DR with the Dalsa chips is worth it. Having shot the 51000's smaller cousin in the P45+ for almost 4 years, I for one prefer the ability to have less noise, much less noise and useable details at base iso. Neither Dalsa or Kodak offer much push past base iso, from my experience.

    Paul

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    No doubt about it - if you're in the US you're lucky to have dealers like CI and DT. Especially if something goes wrong - they have clout. If you live on the remaining 93.4% of the earth's land mass, P1 dealers are a lottery.

    IMHO P1 shouldn't be asking their dealer network to do work they should be doing themselves. Outwith the US, that dealer network just doesn't exist at anything like the same level, so it essentially leaves global testing to CI/DT (plus those with the skills - and access to equipment - to do it properly, like a number of folks here on GetDPI).

    As much as I welcome this testing, more often than not the results are on blog posts with 'email for RAWs'. Remember CIs testing of the IQ180 and the S/K 28? A prize to anyone who finds the link to download the RAWs from that test (here's a link to the page, but unfortunately the form which you have to fill in is missing).

    If anyone from CI or DT (or any P1 dealer) is reading this - please just post the resultant RAWs from testing to dropbox (or similar) and leave them up there permanently with a readme.txt file listing what's what. Dropbox has 250GB per day of bandwidth available to business users - enough for over 3000 IQ180 RAW downloads per day - that should cover it (and you can still post the links to the files on your own site in order to drive traffic towards you initially and put the testing in context).

    Just my 2c.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    I live in the remaining 93.4% of the world, as mentioned above. The dealer network in my neck of the woods is truly atrocious. There was a brief moment when we had the option of going through a really good, enthusiastic guy who knew his stuff and, shock horror, actually USED the equipment for his own business. Phase decided he wasn't selling enough and gave sole distributorship to a company that most would rather walk over broken glass and negotiate alligator pits to avoid dealing with. Truly horrible service, not to mention inflated prices. In terms of Hasselblad, things are a lot better and that alone sways me to use their products.

    With regards to Hasselblad CFV backs, can anyone here state categorically that the sensor in the H5D-50c and CFV-50c is spec'd exactly the same as the one in the Phase IQ250? Do they use the same micro lenses and everything? I guess I'm asking on the off chance it might perform better on technical cameras compared to the competition.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    thank you torger for confirming my decision to invest in a CFV-50 last spring...
    it has been an unbeatable priced option and i like it very much.

    i primarily use it on my arca rm3di, and just for fun bought a hasselblad 500cm in addition to it. i did always love the series 500 and now i'm so happy to be back to this lovely system again ;-)

    the only nuisance is the already mentioned lack of power indication.
    it's unbelievable that such a high engineered product doesn't offer this simple feature.

    but just in case i carry a spare battery and also my silvestry external battery which i used to use on my h3d-39 too. so no worries at all
    www.thomasebruster.com
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    Arca Rm3di|RS90|SK43|RS28|CFV-50

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    What, the CFV-50 has no battery status display?!?! Now THAT'S insane.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    I think it's fair to say the chip (Sony 50MP) is the same between Phase, Hasselblad and Pentax. CFA array is probably different.

    Paul

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I think it's fair to say the chip (Sony 50MP) is the same between Phase, Hasselblad and Pentax. CFA array is probably different.

    Paul
    The CFA array is probably the same. The profile and processing is most likely different.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Has anyone actually tested the 50c on a tech cam to make sure? I'm sure it would be the same but be great to hear it confirmed.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Haven't seen any specific tests of the 50c, but it would be extremely surprising if it's not exactly the same sensor. I don't think CFAs differ either, they could be different from Sonys 35mm sensors though. At some point I hope for a side-by-side raw test shot from Pentax 645z / IQ250 and H5D-50c, by processing them in RawTherapee you can apply the exact same processing and then see if sensors differ or it's just the raw converter's pipelines. I don't think it's likely that any dealer would provide such shots to play with though :-).

    I'm no sensor design specialist, but it does seem to me that having an option to buy the Sony sensor without microlenses would not make much sense if you could not also get it with proper light shields. As being without microlenses is supposed to increase angular response (at least without ripple artifacts) you need light shields too to make it worthwhile otherwise you just get lots of crosstalk. While not having microlenses probably just removes one layer from the sensor and doesn't change much at all, having light shields would be a substantial design change. All indications from the IQ250 raw files I've looked at is that the sensor has very weak shielding between pixels, thus it would still perform very bad with tech wides even without microlenses. The microlenses that is there don't ripple either as on the Dalsa, so probably there's not much gain at all from removing them.

    Additionally, the CFV-50c would perform worse with the V system without microlenses, so no I have no hopes there that it would perform better than an IQ250 with a tech cam :-\.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Ah, well. It's good to dream! It's just such a great price – relative to the alternative Phase and 'Blad offerings, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Haven't seen any specific tests of the 50c, but it would be extremely surprising if it's not exactly the same sensor. I don't think CFAs differ either, they could be different from Sonys 35mm sensors though. At some point I hope for a side-by-side raw test shot from Pentax 645z / IQ250 and H5D-50c, by processing them in RawTherapee you can apply the exact same processing and then see if sensors differ or it's just the raw converter's pipelines. I don't think it's likely that any dealer would provide such shots to play with though :-).

    I'm no sensor design specialist, but it does seem to me that having an option to buy the Sony sensor without microlenses would not make much sense if you could not also get it with proper light shields. As being without microlenses is supposed to increase angular response (at least without ripple artifacts) you need light shields too to make it worthwhile otherwise you just get lots of crosstalk. While not having microlenses probably just removes one layer from the sensor and doesn't change much at all, having light shields would be a substantial design change. All indications from the IQ250 raw files I've looked at is that the sensor has very weak shielding between pixels, thus it would still perform very bad with tech wides even without microlenses. The microlenses that is there don't ripple either as on the Dalsa, so probably there's not much gain at all from removing them.

    Additionally, the CFV-50c would perform worse with the V system without microlenses, so no I have no hopes there that it would perform better than an IQ250 with a tech cam :-\.

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    Re: Hasselblad 50 mp backs superior on tech cams! Why didn't anyone tell us?

    Yes, the CFV-50c is about 60% of the H5D-50c or so, ie almost sanely priced when comparing to 645z. It's a pity for us tech users they didn't keep the CFV-50 in parallel, or even better made a CFV-50 II with updated screen, and possibly even a battery indicator :-). It was also attractively priced compared to the competition. I don't know for how long the Kodak KAF-51000 sensor will stay on the market though.

    It would be nice if TrueSense Imaging, oh well they're now "ON Semiconductor" (which also recently bought Aptina Imaging), could make a new sensor which competes better with Dalsa concerning noise and color separation, but still keep the other properties like 49x37mm format (which is quite widespread on Hasselblad H) and lack of tiling/ripple and low crosstalk. However that TrueSense Imaging never made any new large MF sensor after buying Kodak and now have been sold does not look too good.
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