The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

torger

Active member
The focusing challenge represented by the Otus is temporary. Sony's A7 series already has peaking and I would be surprised if Nikon and Canon don't offer some kind of electronic or hybrid viewfinder within a couple of years.
There's phase-detect peaking already afaik, so there's some okay helpers. To me it's still just too slow and unreliable, but then again I'm not well-trained in manual focusing except the slow static type used in landscape photography. I've got the sense that to be a good manual focuser you need some talent, just like some can hold a camera more stable than others despite using the same technique (yes I like image stabilization too for hand-held photo, but that's not coming anytime soon to MF I guess).
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I find it interesting no one mentions lenses. The 35mm camp are getting some way superior optics (the 85 1.4 Otus was just announced) which is making the comparable MF optics look like toys by comparison. I will never get my head around the pentagonal iris either!?
???? I am not sure what $5K medium format lens you are thinking that is a toy. Possibly the Otus is better than say the new Pentax 90mm macro, but then the macro is also AF and has image stabilization for the same price. But if we are comparing the "best," what 35mm lens line equals the Leica S lenses and gives a leaf shutter option to boot? I have found it easier to find good lenses for my Pentax 645D than my D800, so I am not sure that 35mm optics are that "superior" overall. I think you will find the Otus an exception rather than the rule in 35mm.

Apart from view camera lenses that are design to be used at small apertures, all MF lenses currently manufactured have circular apertures. When is that last time you used a medium-format camera?
 
Last edited:

Shashin

Well-known member
I've got the sense that to be a good manual focuser you need some talent, just like some can hold a camera more stable than others despite using the same technique (yes I like image stabilization too for hand-held photo, but that's not coming anytime soon to MF I guess).
Pentax has a 90mm macro and 28-45mm zoom lens with image stabilization. :D

And yes, in photography you need to develop skills. I find it a bit disconcerting that photographers rely so much on the camera technology to do fairly simply things such as focus and stability. I have thought these as fundamental skills of the photographer. The technology is great, but if you need to default to what the camera can do, then what is a photographer? I actually find it faster and more accurate for focus my 645D manually. AF is for when I am just lazy.

(PS--this is not directed at you per se. I see a lots of complaints where the photographer blames the equipment and it seems to be increasing. There is almost a righteous indignation that a camera won't focus fast enough, as if the photographer is not even supposed to do anything. I learnt that if I did not get a photograph, it was my fault and I would learn the skills to achieve it. Or am I simply a relic from the past? As photographers, where does responsibility for our images come from?)
 

yaya

Active member
I love you guys but why is it that every product announcement here takes no more than 10-15 posts to turn into s discussion over completely different products? I mean I informed you about a new Leaf back and we're now talking Zeiss Otus (for 35mm) and Pentax lenses (that cannot be used with Credo backs AFAIK)...

Yair (stepping off the soap box)
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I love you guys but why is it that every product announcement here takes no more than 10-15 posts to turn into s discussion over completely different products? I mean I informed you about a new Leaf back and we're now talking Zeiss Otus (for 35mm) and Pentax lenses (that cannot be used with Credo backs AFAIK)...

Yair (stepping off the soap box)
Don't worry. It's simply because we love photo gear so much, all photo gear, so we need to involve all of it in any discussion :D

Jokes aside; I believe it's impossible not to discuss new releases of MFD gear without seeing it in a context, and part of that context, like it or not, is the D810 and the Otus lenses. By introducing a sensor that is only 28% larger (diagonal) than that of a D810 or A7R and built on more or less the same technology, that discussion only becomes more relevant.
 
Last edited:

Shashin

Well-known member
I love you guys but why is it that every product announcement here takes no more than 10-15 posts to turn into s discussion over completely different products? I mean I informed you about a new Leaf back and we're now talking Zeiss Otus (for 35mm) and Pentax lenses (that cannot be used with Credo backs AFAIK)...

Yair (stepping off the soap box)
I am actually surprised it got to 15 posts before turning into something else. I am just grateful we have stopped talking about the D800...
 

torger

Active member
I am actually surprised it got to 15 posts before turning into something else. I am just grateful we have stopped talking about the D800...
The 645z is the new D800.

I think I've seen another change too, criticism of Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad/Leica pricing is more accepted than before. I guess that's Pentax fault, more obvious now than before there is a different way to sell medium format gear. Higher volumes and lower profit margins.

Still I've seen some suggest that Pentax camera is too cheap and they may be losing money. I guess time will tell.

The thing about the Credo 50 I'm most curious about is how similar in image quality it is to the IQ250 (I suspect that they are near 100% identical if you just select the ICC profile of the other back), and how a sales person differentiate the two products, it's $10k to make up for.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

Those options are a part of the competitive landscape, at least if anyone is interested in achievable results, I guess…

Clearly the Credo 50 offers some benefits, like being usable on a technical camera, an extra stop of DR over other Sony sensored cameras (due to sensor size). But it is still a small sensor for MF, and doesn't work well with extensive movements, in all probability, due to the crosstalk issues Torger pointed out for the other cameras having the same sensor.

To talk about MFD without looking at the competitive landscape is simply stupid and ignorant, unless you are into buying prestige of course and in that case why not settle for IQ280?

I don't know if there are MF lenses matching the Otuses, especially when combined with a 1.3 crop sensor. Techical camera lenses are there, for sure.

Best regards
Erik

I love you guys but why is it that every product announcement here takes no more than 10-15 posts to turn into s discussion over completely different products? I mean I informed you about a new Leaf back and we're now talking Zeiss Otus (for 35mm) and Pentax lenses (that cannot be used with Credo backs AFAIK)...

Yair (stepping off the soap box)
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

Pretty sure that Ricoh is not loosing money on the 645z, but it is possible that they opted for lower margins than usual.

Obviously, Ricoh can use existing R&D as they are a long time Sony sensor user, and they also can reuse components from their K-series cameras. Being a part of a large company has some benefits.

Best regards
Erik


The 645z is the new D800.

I think I've seen another change too, criticism of Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad/Leica pricing is more accepted than before. I guess that's Pentax fault, more obvious now than before there is a different way to sell medium format gear. Higher volumes and lower profit margins.

Still I've seen some suggest that Pentax camera is too cheap and they may be losing money. I guess time will tell.

The thing about the Credo 50 I'm most curious about is how similar in image quality it is to the IQ250 (I suspect that they are near 100% identical if you just select the ICC profile of the other back), and how a sales person differentiate the two products, it's $10k to make up for.
 
Last edited:

torger

Active member
I can rephrase it for him;

"To consider buying into MFD today without looking at the results achievable by competing systems may cost you a lot of money."

MF has never before had this tough competition from below (D810, A7r) and within (645z), and never before has the technology been so similar (Sony's CMOS in them all). With so easily comparable systems it has never before been so easy to question pricing.
 
M

mjr

Guest
Bottom line is that "want" has much more pull than "need", if you want a mfd then why not, this credo is another great option at a cheaper price than the phase in exchange for less functionality in some areas, you pay your money and take your choice.

There are alternatives to pretty much everything but if you want something then no more justification is required or necessary. I'd love another mf back but I'm a small business so I have to be sensible, if I had the money though I'd buy one, purely because the process of shooting mf, especially on a tech camera is just fantastic and gives so much pleasure.

Congrats to Leaf for offering an alternative, in these days of economic uncertainty and whinging forum members, it's amazing we have as much choice as we do! Long may it continue.

Mat
 

torger

Active member
As most know by now the Sony CMOS sensors are not great on tech wides. It will work fine with longer focal lengths, so great for things like table-top product photography on your view camera, but not so great for architectural or landscape photography with wide angle, which most use their tech cameras for on this forum.

This makes the Credo 50, IQ250, CFV-50c and H5D-50c backs MFSLR-backs only to many of us. In that context the 645z becomes even more competitive, as the tech cam argument is not very strong with these backs. But on the other hand, 645z lacks in tethering (at least so far) and leaf shutters and you might just like C1 software and color profiles better, so there's still rational reasons to get the Credo. But I find it most interesting to see how many years into future this type of pricing will work.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

OK, here it comes:

To talk about MFD without looking at the competitive landscape is simply ignorant and stupid.

Explanation:

The assumption is made that buyer is looking for a solution to a set of problems. A good buyer looks at alternatives and chooses the one that fits his/her needs best within set limitations. A smart buyer would normally choose the solution with the lowest cost.

So, LEAF is now offering a Sony Exmor based back that costs like four Pentax 645z (including four cameras) using exactly the same sensor or 12 pieces of A7r (using a slightly smaller Exmor sensor and still including camera bodies.

So a smart guy checks the alternatives:

If 50 MP is needed but intention is not to use on MFD on a technical body the Pentax 645z may be an interesting option. It is well the most advanced MF camera. It is also build with high precision as sensor is aligned to the rest of the camera, an advantage of the integrated approach (that also Leica has chosen with the S).

If 36 MP is enough the D810 or the A7r may be an interesting choice. The A7r obviously has some issues with shutter vibration, but it seems MFD owners are not much disturbed by that issue. In 3-4 months a new Sony is coming with 46 MP, but perhaps a new Phase One camera will hit the market before that?

If you need leaf shutter, high ISO and so, the CMOS based MFDBs are optimal, you can go with IQ-250, Hasselblad 50c or the new Leaf back. Still some competitive landscape, isn't it?

If you need tilts and shifts the older CCD based backs may be better.

So there are a lot of options, simply.

Best regards
Erik



Perhaps you should rephrase this statement Erik

BR

Yair
Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post

To talk about MFD without looking at the competitive landscape is simply stupid and ignorant

Best regards
Erik
 
M

mjr

Guest
Erik, I would guess that the issue is not with the argument as it reflects your own personal views, more likely it's the language you used to express that opinion. The words stupid and ignorant are unnecessary in my opinion, if you have a point then at least make it eloquently, failing that just don't bother.

Mat
 
M

mjr

Guest
May I also add that price for me personally is the last thing on my list, if I wanted a MF body/system then it would never be the Pentax for me, the fact that a few lenses are good enough and lots aren't really up to the task means it's off the list. The Phase back is obviously great but if I didn't need the functionality as it is then the Credo would be perfect. Once I have decided what I want then the price dictates how much work I have to do before I can get it, a cheaper option that's almost as good as a system would never get a look in and I'd suggest that I'm not the only one who thinks like that.

The argument for 35mm is irrelevant if you want a MF system, it doesn't matter what is available or at what cost if you don't want it.

I have a similar view with A7r and smaller bodies or EVF over optical, we all want different things from functionality so buy what you want, I personally hate the A7 series, EVF for me just doesn't work, I like to frame with an optical viewfinder and switch on live view if/when I want a wysiwyg view, options for me are good.

Anyway, if you want to give me a Credo nice and cheap Yair then I'm in, maybe I'd get it in H mount and stick it on the H5x, nice!

Just my views obviously.

Mat
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

I don't agree on the issue.

Best regards
Erik


Erik, I would guess that the issue is not with the argument as it reflects your own personal views, more likely it's the language you used to express that opinion. The words stupid and ignorant are unnecessary in my opinion, if you have a point then at least make it eloquently, failing that just don't bother.

Mat
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Still I've seen some suggest that Pentax camera is too cheap and they may be losing money. I guess time will tell.
Some people think NASA faked the moon landings. Camera enthusiasts are really not a credible source for the business.
 
Top