Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

[Shashin]

A smart buyer would normally choose the solution with the lowest cost.

Rubbish. There are other factors in choosing something except cost. There is more to life than cheap economic pseudo-theory.

 

[torger]

You mean the wireless tethering you can get for the 645Z? It would help if there was no tethering, but there is...

I thought that the wireless tethering was slow and/or unreliable compared to cabled tethering, and cabled tethering is coming later this year, but maybe I'm misinformed?

 

[torger]

Some people think NASA faked the moon landings. Camera enthusiasts are really not a credible source for the business.

Actually that claim I've heard from a Hasselblad dealer... those are generally camera enthusiasts too though

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Check this: Procurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have not said that the cheapest solution is normally chosen. What I said:

"The assumption is made that buyer is looking for a solution to a set of problems. A good buyer looks at alternatives and chooses the one that fits his/her needs best within set limitations. A smart buyer would normally choose the solution with the lowest cost."

So a buyer would find the solutions that best fits their needs within limitations, than select on price.

Best regards
Erik

Rubbish. There are other factors in choosing something except cost. There is more to life than cheap economic pseudo-theory.

 

[mjr]

Hi,

I don't agree on the issue.

Best regards
Erik

You're on good form today Erik, good answer.

 

[torger]

Can we calm down a little? The controversy on price wouldn't be there if the difference wasn't so huge with hardware so similar. With Phase/Leaf you pay $15 - $20k per unit as a "business model fee", I think most are aware of that now as it has never been this obvious. Anyone is free to accept that, and the products do provide some unique features that cannot be found elsewhere.

 

[mjr]

Torger, aren't you just a little bored with going on about the price differences? The prices are what they are, people will buy it or not. It's a commercial industry, if there weren't enough people valuing the brand, product, support, dealers, rental houses etc. etc. then Phase/ Hasselblad wouldn't be in business, they aren't charities. Can't we just accept that there are differences in price and move on?

I'm quite calm by the way, I've got a nice cup of tea.

Mat

 

[torger]

Torger, aren't you just a little bored with going on about the price differences? The prices are what they are, people will buy it or not. It's a commercial industry, if there weren't enough people valuing the brand, product, support, dealers, rental houses etc. etc. then Phase/ Hasselblad wouldn't be in business, they aren't charities. Can't we just accept that there are differences in price and move on?

Well, probably a bit bored by now yes . I'd like to see MF reach broader layers of users, and I also think that the current MF business model cannot hold up forever, so I just sit and wait for the change to come. The business model worked perfectly in 2005 with the huge quality differences between the formats and little possibilities of crossovers. Today the landscape is much different, and I don't think it will turn back, competition will just become tougher. Phase One haven't changed an inch, for each new release some of us hope to see signs of change. So far nothing. I'm patient though, and Hasselblad is showing some signs of change, the H5X is an extremely interesting release in trying to reach broader.

 

[Shashin]

Hi,

Check this: Procurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have not said that the cheapest solution is normally chosen. What I said:

"The assumption is made that buyer is looking for a solution to a set of problems. A good buyer looks at alternatives and chooses the one that fits his/her needs best within set limitations. A smart buyer would normally choose the solution with the lowest cost."

So a buyer would find the solutions that best fits their needs within limitations, than select on price.

Best regards
Erik

I am not a corporation. I don't need a problem to solve to purchase something. Any criteria I use to make my purchase does not make me a good, bad, smart, nor dumb "buyer." Reason cannot always be reduced to simplistic MBA economics. I know it is very fashionable to talk about things in "market" terms, but most people live a human life, or, at least, should.

 

[Shashin]

Actually that claim I've heard from a Hasselblad dealer... those are generally camera enthusiasts too though

A Hasselblad dealer? Well, he should know all about Pentax's costs, margins, and sales. Actually, I hate when a dealer makes stuff up to slam the competition--just turns me off.

 

[stephengilbert]

When jerks submit offensive posts, I try to ignore them.* I think it's better for your health and might tend to encourage them to go to some other site.

*Obviously, this post is an exception to that rule.

 

[Shashin]

I thought that the wireless tethering was slow and/or unreliable compared to cabled tethering, and cabled tethering is coming later this year, but maybe I'm misinformed?

Well, I have yet to see any feedback on the 645Z and tethering option. My experience with wireless (D800) and cable tether (p25+) is they both work well or don't. Both have been smooth for me and both have given me problems. Personally, I prefer the wireless as the cable can be a pain. But with a lack of data or reviews on the Pentax solution, it is hard to say much about it.

 

[Shashin]

I've got a nice cup of tea.

Mat

I am calm too, but I use whisky.

 

[yaya]

Hi,

OK, here it comes:

To talk about MFD without looking at the competitive landscape is simply ignorant and stupid.

Explanation:

The assumption is made that buyer is looking for a solution to a set of problems. A good buyer looks at alternatives and chooses the one that fits his/her needs best within set limitations. A smart buyer would normally choose the solution with the lowest cost.

So, LEAF is now offering a Sony Exmor based back that costs like four Pentax 645z (including four cameras) using exactly the same sensor or 12 pieces of A7r (using a slightly smaller Exmor sensor and still including camera bodies.

So a smart guy checks the alternatives:

If 50 MP is needed but intention is not to use on MFD on a technical body the Pentax 645z may be an interesting option. It is well the most advanced MF camera. It is also build with high precision as sensor is aligned to the rest of the camera, an advantage of the integrated approach (that also Leica has chosen with the S).

If 36 MP is enough the D810 or the A7r may be an interesting choice. The A7r obviously has some issues with shutter vibration, but it seems MFD owners are not much disturbed by that issue. In 3-4 months a new Sony is coming with 46 MP, but perhaps a new Phase One camera will hit the market before that?

If you need leaf shutter, high ISO and so, the CMOS based MFDBs are optimal, you can go with IQ-250, Hasselblad 50c or the new Leaf back. Still some competitive landscape, isn't it?

If you need tilts and shifts the older CCD based backs may be better.

So there are a lot of options, simply.

Best regards
Erik

OK I'll bite...

So you are quoting me and then choosing to use "stupid" and "ignorant" in your comment. I know this is not personal but I don't think one can just throw this kind of judgement without looking at the complete picture. Having some personal experience with the products in discussion can go a long way toward adding credibility to your statement...

Have you used/ tried/ tested any of the modern medium format systems? Have you compared it to e.g. D810 or A7R through the eyes & wallet of a potential buyer and in his/ her typical environment?

A smart buyer IMO would first look at their needs and wishes (as opposed to "problems"), then look at the products that can potentially fulfil those needs/ wishes, consider each product's strengths & weaknesses inc. costs of acquiring, running etc. and ideally should also have some hands-on experience, as limited or as extended as possible.

If medium format is the product getting the highest score and gets picked, we're all happy.

If something else gets picked, some of us might be a bit happier but that is the nature of healthy business and there is nothing new or wrong there.

BR

Yair

 

[f8orbust]

Aren't you just a little bored with going on about the price differences? The prices are what they are, people will buy it or not. It's a commercial industry, if there weren't enough people valuing the brand, product, support, dealers, rental houses etc. etc. then Phase/ Hasselblad wouldn't be in business, they aren't charities. Can't we just accept that there are differences in price and move on?

Personally speaking, I'm not bored at all. The biggest failing of MF has been (and, for the most part, continues to be) its 'reassuringly expensive' pricing structure. Back in the days of film, you could put the same emulsion in your camera as any of the greatest photographers on the planet. The equipment wasn't priced stupidly. Cost wasn't a barrier to entry. With digital, some 'suit' decided on the high-initial-price-to-make-upgrade-attractive model - i.e. get 'em on board and get 'em to upgrade every couple of years. Make it painful for them to miss an upgrade. And what happens when you do get off this merry-go-round, or try to - you find out your 9000 shot IQ180 with VAW can't even make $14k on eBay. Ouch.

Jim

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Yair,

I see your point. You feel that I am quoting you and that implies that my remarks would apply to you?

My point is a bit different, you start a thread about 44x33 mm Sony Exmor based camera and seem to have objections when the thread discusses lenses, specially the Otus 1.4/55.

Contrary to what seems to be your view, I feel it is appropriate to discuss a lens/sensor combo as a system, specially as the same generation and type of sensor is used. Clearly the Leaf Credo 50 has marginally larger sensor size and also marginally higher resolution, 50 MP vs 36 MP on DSLRs, a 17% (linear) advantage in MP.

Clearly, it is a relevant question to ask weather a 44x33 mm sensor on the Credo combined with the available lenses will offer significant benefits over 36 MP DSLRs. Likewise, it is a highly relevant question to ask how the Sony Exmor sensor used by the Leaf Credo handles lens cast and crosstalk compared to the CCD competition.

Clearly, the Leaf Credo 50 offers around one EV advantage in DR at base ISO over the DSLR competition at base ISO, but it is well possible that base iso may be less used due to shorter DoF at similar apertures. Needing to stop down at for DoF may reduce sharpness due to diffraction.

The Otus is designed to deliver near optimal sharpness at maximum aperture, with no longitudinal chromatic aberration (green/magenta fringing in out of focus areas), any lenses for MFD designed that way? For instance, the Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad have significant colour bokeh. Which lenses don't have that in MFD? Most DSLR lenses have round apertures while many MF lenses have octogonal aperture, giving less pleasant out of focus rendition.

As you see, there are a lot of questions that are relevant before spending a significant amount of money. The way I see it any person interested in using his/her money wisely would look into these and similar aspects before committing to spend a lot of money.

Getting back to my experience:

No, I have not used recent MFD. The one I have is the Phase One P45+, but I have seen quite a few raw files from different MF-systems including the IQ-250, so I can draw conclusions from that.

On DSLRs, I have Sony's and don't have a 36 MP camera, but I actually had models with 6 (FF), 4.7 (APS-C) and 3.9 (APS-C) micron pixels, corresponding to 24, 36 and 54 MP on full frame. It is quite possible to draw some conclusions from that. I have also seen quite a few raw images from Nikons and other system.

Than, I have some elementary skills of math (so I know about problem sets and boundary conditions) and a long time interest in optics and imaging, something like 40+ years.

Nothing of that makes me an expert.

Anyway, my view is that before I invest in any system I look at the advantages and disadvantages, costs and benefits. Done that I can make an educated choice.

I wouldn't say my choice of Sony has been an educated choice. It had much to do with having compatible lenses. Based on what I know today Canon or Nikon may have been a better choice.

The Phase One P45+ was an educated choice, on the other hand. It was mostly based economy. Used Hasselblad lenses are very affordable. I am pretty sure it would have been smarter not to go into MF, but I actually enjoy shooting with the stuff, even if I don't know if using MF improved my picture taking.

Best regards
Erik

OK I'll bite...

So you are quoting me and then choosing to use "stupid" and "ignorant" in your comment. I know this is not personal but I don't think one can just throw this kind of judgement without looking at the complete picture. Having some personal experience with the products in discussion can go a long way toward adding credibility to your statement...

Have you used/ tried/ tested any of the modern medium format systems? Have you compared it to e.g. D810 or A7R through the eyes & wallet of a potential buyer and in his/ her typical environment?

A smart buyer IMO would first look at their needs and wishes (as opposed to "problems"), then look at the products that can potentially fulfil those needs/ wishes, consider each product's strengths & weaknesses inc. costs of acquiring, running etc. and ideally should also have some hands-on experience, as limited or as extended as possible.

If medium format is the product getting the highest score and gets picked, we're all happy.

If something else gets picked, some of us might be a bit happier but that is the nature of healthy business and there is nothing new or wrong there.

BR

Yair

 

[dougpeterson]

The Otus is designed to deliver near optimal sharpness at maximum aperture, with no longitudinal chromatic aberration (green/magenta fringing in out of focus areas), any lenses for MFD designed that way? For instance, the Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad have significant colour bokeh. Which lenses don't have that in MFD?

The Zeiss lenses for the Hassy 400 are quite old. What's surprising about them is they are still pretty decent, especially when stopped down, and they have a nice look (even if the technical performance is not perfect). But they have not been the benchmark for image quality in medium format lenses for a long time.

If you'd like to make a comparison to something more recent, like the Schneider LS and Phase One D lenses our office is always open to you.

Using a lens like a 110LS/2.8 might well change your mind on this.

 

[yaya]

the Leaf Credo 50 has marginally larger sensor size and also marginally higher resolution, 50 MP vs 36 MP on DSLRs, a 17% (linear) advantage in MP.

Clearly, it is a relevant question to ask weather a 44x33 mm sensor on the Credo combined with the available lenses will offer significant benefits over 36 MP DSLRs.

What is your preferred crop/ composition Erik?

A 36MP 3:2 image cropped down to 4:3 gives a lot less than 50MP

A 50MP 4:3 image cropped down to 3:2 still gives more than 36MP

A square crop? Still more pixels in the MF image...linear or not...

This is just one argument out of many that can be defended or discarded till the cows come home. I'm not trying to convince you to invest in a new MF system or a back. If 35mm suits your style/ needs/ wants/ wishes, budget/ vision etc. etc. then more power to you! Others might have different views that's all I am saying...

 

[yaya]

Frank Doorhof was one of the beta testers of the Credo 50 and his given it a fairly good workout. He's just published a user review


Warning: there are no MTF charts and no UTT targets involved in the article!

Enjoy!

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Doug,

I checked the MTF curves you have posted for the 110/2.8 LS and compared with the Otus 55/1.4. The MTF data is presented differently 15/30/60 lp/mm for the 110/2.8 LS and at 10/20/40 lp/mm for the Otus.

Taking the format difference into account, it would be adequate to compare the 20 lp/mm curve on the Otus with the 15 lp/mm curve on the LS. I would say the lenses are close. So these lenses would give similar results in the plane of focus with the Otus on a 50 MP DSLR (that is not available) and 50 MP MFD with 44x33 mm sensor size.

So based on the MTF alone data I would expect IQ-250 (etc) outperform a 36 MP 135 system using Otus by a slight margin.

I am by the way aware of Hassy lenses being old designs. That said I have seen bokeh fringing also on Leica S lenses. I am aware of about three lenses that have no bokeh fringing, the Coastal Optics 60 Macro, the Otus 55/1.4 and the Voigtländer Apo Lanthar 125/2.5 SL. I don't know about the LS 110/2.8, although the look of the MTF curves may indicate that it has some lateral chromatic aberration, as tangential and sagittal curves separate. By the looks it is lateral chroma, easily fixed in postprocessing.

Best regards
Erik

The Zeiss lenses for the Hassy 400 are quite old. What's surprising about them is they are still pretty decent, especially when stopped down, and they have a nice look (even if the technical performance is not perfect). But they have not been the benchmark for image quality in medium format lenses for a long time.

If you'd like to make a comparison to something more recent, like the Schneider LS and Phase One D lenses our office is always open to you.

Using a lens like a 110LS/2.8 might well change your mind on this.