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Thread: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

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    Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Hi all,

    The below Press Release has just gone out. Exciting times with Photokina starting in just 8 days! I hope to see some of you lot in Cologne!!!

    TEL AVIV, September 8, 2014 -- Fourteen years since the CMOS-based 6MP Leaf C-MOST digital back was announced at Photokina 2000, Mamiya Leaf today introduced the Credo 50, a 50 megapixel CMOS-based system that gives photographers a wider range of settings -- from ISO 100 to ISO 6400 -- for greater versatility and higher performance in capturing legendary
    Leaf colors under a variety of shooting conditions, including available light.

    “The Leaf Credo 50 simply gives photographers more options,” said Ziv Argov, Vice President, Mamiya Leaf. “Its Sony 50 MP CMOS sensor enables full-resolution image captures up to ISO
    6400. Its new image processor improves Live View performance and data flow, while expanding dynamic range to 14-stops. For wedding, portrait, fashion and action shooting, this system
    delivers.”

    * Live View -- The Leaf Credo 50 supports incredibly fluid high-quality live view for exact composition as well as more accurate and selective focusing, whether it is done on the digital back’s LCD, or on a computer monitor through Capture One software.
    * Compelling, Clean Color Rendition -- 50 MP resolution
    * Very Long Exposures -- up to One hour
    * Giant Touch Screen -- 3.2” display at 1.15 megapixel resolution
    * 14 f-stops dynamic range -- one shot captures retain amazing details in highlights and shadows
    * Enhanced Image Processor -- faster and cleaner Live View, 2.3 GB Data Flow, 1.2 frames per second capture rate and faster read/write speeds.

    Full specifications are available at: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/credo50.html

    So what’s it like shooting with the Leaf Credo 50?

    Three photographers who’ve tested the system share their experiences.

    “Leaf has always been known for its film-like color, which is true,” said Cameron Davidson, aerial photographer. “With the new Leaf Credo 50, I’m finding that I can shoot a high-contrast
    situation and hold details in both shadows and sunlight. For aerials, I’m always facing these issues, shooting in low light and the Leaf Credo 50 is ideal for this work.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOGseLj1O8A

    “The better the camera, the more options you get,” said fashion photographer Frank Doorhof. “The new Leaf Credo 50 is a system that’s great to build on. You get incredible dynamic range,
    very good noise control, and a bright touch display on the back, so when you’re outside, you can easily see the images you’re shooting. You can shoot with natural light, tungsten, lightbulbs or candles -- all with amazing quality.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB4CHePhqNw

    “For my project ‘New York Love Story’, I’m shooting the city from rooftops,” said Karsten Staiger, “The Leaf Credo 50 is an amazing piece of equipment. Its high dynamic range is very
    important for me. Plus the ISO can go up to 6400, and the new Live View is just incredible -- I was able to zoom into the building, with a 300 mm lens, focus it and see people on the Empire
    State Building. It’s just incredible the details I’m getting!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94e7ZaVm1RY

    For those attending Photokina 2014 Exhibition, the new Leaf Credo 50 will be on display in Hall 04.1 at Stand B040 C048

    Pricing and Availability
    The Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 Digital back is priced at 26,995 USD / 19.995 EUR. A Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 system is priced at 30,995 USD / 22.995 EUR. There is a Wide-Spectrum back
    option for Near IR and UV imaging
    . The Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 may be ordered now through Mamiya Leaf partners world wide (Mamiya Leaf Partners - Latin America). For existing
    Mamiya Leaf customers, attractive digital back and/or camera system upgrades are available.

    Shipping begins September 16, 2014.
    The Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 comes with Capture One software for optimal capture, RAW image processing and image editing.
    To schedule a hands-on demo of the Leaf Credo 50, please see this page: Arrange for a Mamiya Leaf Demonstration

    About Mamiya Leaf
    Mamiya Leaf represents the combined experience and expertise of Mamiya and Leaf -- two legendary brands. Together, they represent 100 years of camera, optics and digital imaging expertise, including the launch of the world’s first commercial medium format digital camera back. Mamiya Leaf is dedicated to improving the quality of its products, technologies and services to advance the industry and support all those who are passionate about digital photography. The company serves its customers worldwide through dedicated dealers. For more
    information, please see: www.mamiyaleaf.com

    One of the many pictures I took while working and testing the new back...


    # #
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    We enjoyed testing the new Credo 50 and making comparisons to the IQ250 regarding color.

    I don't know when we will publish a formal article, but we have the files now. So if any of our customers would like to see them just shoot me an email.

    See you at Photokina Yair!
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Yair - that's a tremendous image of the moon. Obviously a crop, but I'm guessing with the 240LS?

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Yair - that's a tremendous image of the moon. Obviously a crop, but I'm guessing with the 240LS?

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
    yes, 240mm and a 2X TC...and yes it's a crop (and a rather small one)...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Since Leaf backs are basically the Phase One 'budget' line, you can't help feel that this would have been a great moment to go radical on price à la the CFV-50c @ $15.5k.

    But then, who would buy an IQ250?
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    But then, who would buy an IQ250?
    The thing with Phase One I think is this if you have Phase One you will get the best technology first, so if you are in the program and upgrade when new things arrive, you have the best stuff continously. Sure the competition (and Leaf budget brand) tags along and delivers the corresponding quality, but later, and often with a few little features lacking.

    It's not as successful in being an attractive alternative at times when all alternatives are on the table, but then again, if you have the IQ250 you have a stepping stone to get the best technology first when the next leap comes, perhaps a full-frame CMOS.

    If Phase One loses this position, say next time Hasselblad is first and have a stronger digital platform, then their pricing will become impossible. So far there's no sign that Phase One is going to lose the position as number one when it comes to digital back technology.

    Should be noted that the CFV-50c is a specially priced digital back, just like the CFV-50 before it, I'm guessing they intend to sell to amateurs and artists more than traditional pro photographers and therefore have set a "low" price. Their "main product" H5D-50c has almost exactly the same price as Credo 50.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Looks like a really nice back. Hopefully current owners will see some upgrade paths.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    The biggest reason for staying with Phase for me is the integration between the IQ series backs and C1. I'm not talking about tethering etc., but more on the image processing and all the "black-box" magic that happens internally. I know that NEF file from my Nikon or ARW from my A7R do not get the same advantage when processed in C1.

    This alone is worth staying with Phase, and I do hope they continue to have this level of strong software support for their backs. No point spending thousands on cameras and lenses only to run it on "generic" software. As much as a case can be made for standardization and open interfaces, proprietary usually means more focussed.

    As the gap in pricing increases, the justification may not be so black and white, and of course this would vary for each individual.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Looks like a really nice back. Hopefully current owners will see some upgrade paths.
    Sell old Phase

    Buy new Pentax

    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    I think Capture One's superiority and any special tricks they might do in software because they know their hardware is over-rated.

    They do very good and tasteful color profiling, and of course they put most effort into their own products. They probably have better lens profiling too for their 645DF lenses. But that's about it in terms of magic. However one can of course like the overall workflow in Capture One and its various features too, better than say Phocus or Lightroom.

    I'm a bit surprised that there still are so poor availability of user-friendly software that let photographers themselves create and tune camera profiles. If photographers were used to actually create ICC / DCP profiles themselves (and not only for reproduction) I think we'd see more use of "generic" software.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    If Phase One loses this position, say next time Hasselblad is first and have a stronger digital platform, then their pricing will become impossible. So far there's no sign that Phase One is going to lose the position as number one when it comes to digital back technology.
    You mean the one month difference in the release data between Phase and Hasselblad for their CMOS cameras is significant? Considering Hasselblad made their announcement first, I wonder if the tech race is really a factor. I think what brand you already own and the value proposition of a particular brand is going to be a bigger factor. I have never thought of Phase as particularly cutting edge in technology. With Leaf joining Phase, Hasselblad, and Pentax coming out with revolutionary 50MP CMOS Sony technology, no one seems particularly cutting edge, either that, the edge is rather large.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You mean the one month difference in the release data between Phase and Hasselblad for their CMOS cameras is significant? Considering Hasselblad made their announcement first, I wonder if the tech race is really a factor. I think what brand you already own and the value proposition of a particular brand is going to be a bigger factor. I have never thought of Phase as particularly cutting edge in technology. With Leaf joining Phase, Hasselblad, and Pentax coming out with revolutionary 50MP CMOS Sony technology, no one seems particularly cutting edge.
    Yep, I mean it's significant, but I could be wrong. It's a mix of tech features and being first though. Hasselblad did announce in advance, but it seemed rushed and they lack live view and have a bit dated feel overall (the back that is, the camera body seems to be a lot better). I do see Phase One as cutting edge in digital back technology. Their technological advantage may not be huge, but it's there. Noone has 60 mp long exposure except P1 with its IQ260. Sensor+ technology is unique to P1. GUI and encasing is in the front, and some other minor things. You know in the world of MF something like a Wifi port is a huge feature worth many thousands of dollars :-).

    If it has only come down to brand loyalty these days, then Phase One is in for some trouble long term.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Can't help wondering whether Phase One are confident with their back pricing because they have a kick-*** camera about to be announced that will really set them apart from the rest of the pack.

    Hey. One can dream, yes?
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Ok, so what's the difference between the IQ250 and the Leaf ? Did someone do a side-by side spec comparison ?

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Ok, so what's the difference between the IQ250 and the Leaf ? Did someone do a side-by side spec comparison ?
    Compared to the Credo 50 the IQ250 adds:
    - WiFi review, editing, and control
    - GPS Geotagging
    - Focus Mask
    - Optional Custom Start Up Screen
    - Different color profiles
    - Availability of a 5-year warranty with loaner provision

    And of course a higher price.

    There are some typos out there which say the Credo 50 does not allow auto-horizon and perspective correction in Capture One. This is not correct; the Credo 50 does have this feature.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Can't help wondering whether Phase One are confident with their back pricing because they have a kick-*** camera about to be announced that will really set them apart from the rest of the pack...
    I thought it was here already?

    Last edited by f8orbust; 9th September 2014 at 08:57.
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Doug,
    Is the operating temperature range another difference?

    IQ series:



    Leaf Credo: 0°–40°C (32°–104°F)
    Humidity: 15%–80% (non-condensing)



    Thanks,

    Steve.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Can't help wondering whether Phase One are confident with their back pricing because they have a kick-*** camera about to be announced that will really set them apart from the rest of the pack.

    Hey. One can dream, yes?
    I find it interesting no one mentions lenses. The 35mm camp are getting some way superior optics (the 85 1.4 Otus was just announced) which is making the comparable MF optics look like toys by comparison. I will never get my head around the pentagonal iris either!?
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    The Otus series is manual focus... why shoot hi resolution f/1.4 when focus will be at least slightly off most of the time anyway? Sure great lenses for live view-focused landscape and still life, but then you will stop down, and when stopped down to say f/5.6 a Sigma Art lens is just as good, at a smaller price and indeed autofocus.

    Otus is optically interesting, it shows what is possible when you let things cost, the results when the 50 megapixel sensors arrive will be even more interesting, but in terms of practical use I don't really understand its value.

    I agree that the pentagonal iris is a mystery. How hard can it be to make it round? 135 systems and video have had it for ages on their high end lenses.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    The focusing challenge represented by the Otus is temporary. Sony's A7 series already has peaking and I would be surprised if Nikon and Canon don't offer some kind of electronic or hybrid viewfinder within a couple of years. I must admit that I'm scratching my head a bit when looking at the most recent MFD announcements. A couple of years ago, the CCD sensors were one of the factors that made medium format stand out. Now, that has apparently changed. To me, these old cameras look increasingly like clunky, old fashioned pieces of gear with expensive lenses and backs, the latter losing more value the moment you hand over the cheque than the total cost of an A7r and a couple of good lenses.

    I'm still very fascinated by MF and wish I could see a bright future for this, but this is starting to look a bit... weird? Dark?

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The focusing challenge represented by the Otus is temporary. Sony's A7 series already has peaking and I would be surprised if Nikon and Canon don't offer some kind of electronic or hybrid viewfinder within a couple of years.
    There's phase-detect peaking already afaik, so there's some okay helpers. To me it's still just too slow and unreliable, but then again I'm not well-trained in manual focusing except the slow static type used in landscape photography. I've got the sense that to be a good manual focuser you need some talent, just like some can hold a camera more stable than others despite using the same technique (yes I like image stabilization too for hand-held photo, but that's not coming anytime soon to MF I guess).

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoRepse View Post
    I find it interesting no one mentions lenses. The 35mm camp are getting some way superior optics (the 85 1.4 Otus was just announced) which is making the comparable MF optics look like toys by comparison. I will never get my head around the pentagonal iris either!?
    ???? I am not sure what $5K medium format lens you are thinking that is a toy. Possibly the Otus is better than say the new Pentax 90mm macro, but then the macro is also AF and has image stabilization for the same price. But if we are comparing the "best," what 35mm lens line equals the Leica S lenses and gives a leaf shutter option to boot? I have found it easier to find good lenses for my Pentax 645D than my D800, so I am not sure that 35mm optics are that "superior" overall. I think you will find the Otus an exception rather than the rule in 35mm.

    Apart from view camera lenses that are design to be used at small apertures, all MF lenses currently manufactured have circular apertures. When is that last time you used a medium-format camera?
    Last edited by Shashin; 9th September 2014 at 08:05.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I've got the sense that to be a good manual focuser you need some talent, just like some can hold a camera more stable than others despite using the same technique (yes I like image stabilization too for hand-held photo, but that's not coming anytime soon to MF I guess).
    Pentax has a 90mm macro and 28-45mm zoom lens with image stabilization.

    And yes, in photography you need to develop skills. I find it a bit disconcerting that photographers rely so much on the camera technology to do fairly simply things such as focus and stability. I have thought these as fundamental skills of the photographer. The technology is great, but if you need to default to what the camera can do, then what is a photographer? I actually find it faster and more accurate for focus my 645D manually. AF is for when I am just lazy.

    (PS--this is not directed at you per se. I see a lots of complaints where the photographer blames the equipment and it seems to be increasing. There is almost a righteous indignation that a camera won't focus fast enough, as if the photographer is not even supposed to do anything. I learnt that if I did not get a photograph, it was my fault and I would learn the skills to achieve it. Or am I simply a relic from the past? As photographers, where does responsibility for our images come from?)

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    I love you guys but why is it that every product announcement here takes no more than 10-15 posts to turn into s discussion over completely different products? I mean I informed you about a new Leaf back and we're now talking Zeiss Otus (for 35mm) and Pentax lenses (that cannot be used with Credo backs AFAIK)...

    Yair (stepping off the soap box)
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I love you guys but why is it that every product announcement here takes no more than 10-15 posts to turn into s discussion over completely different products? I mean I informed you about a new Leaf back and we're now talking Zeiss Otus (for 35mm) and Pentax lenses (that cannot be used with Credo backs AFAIK)...

    Yair (stepping off the soap box)
    Don't worry. It's simply because we love photo gear so much, all photo gear, so we need to involve all of it in any discussion

    Jokes aside; I believe it's impossible not to discuss new releases of MFD gear without seeing it in a context, and part of that context, like it or not, is the D810 and the Otus lenses. By introducing a sensor that is only 28% larger (diagonal) than that of a D810 or A7R and built on more or less the same technology, that discussion only becomes more relevant.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 9th September 2014 at 18:06.
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I love you guys but why is it that every product announcement here takes no more than 10-15 posts to turn into s discussion over completely different products? I mean I informed you about a new Leaf back and we're now talking Zeiss Otus (for 35mm) and Pentax lenses (that cannot be used with Credo backs AFAIK)...

    Yair (stepping off the soap box)
    I am actually surprised it got to 15 posts before turning into something else. I am just grateful we have stopped talking about the D800...

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I am actually surprised it got to 15 posts before turning into something else. I am just grateful we have stopped talking about the D800...
    The 645z is the new D800.

    I think I've seen another change too, criticism of Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad/Leica pricing is more accepted than before. I guess that's Pentax fault, more obvious now than before there is a different way to sell medium format gear. Higher volumes and lower profit margins.

    Still I've seen some suggest that Pentax camera is too cheap and they may be losing money. I guess time will tell.

    The thing about the Credo 50 I'm most curious about is how similar in image quality it is to the IQ250 (I suspect that they are near 100% identical if you just select the ICC profile of the other back), and how a sales person differentiate the two products, it's $10k to make up for.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I am actually surprised it got to 15 posts before turning into something else. I am just grateful we have stopped talking about the D800...
    Great
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Hi,

    Those options are a part of the competitive landscape, at least if anyone is interested in achievable results, I guess…

    Clearly the Credo 50 offers some benefits, like being usable on a technical camera, an extra stop of DR over other Sony sensored cameras (due to sensor size). But it is still a small sensor for MF, and doesn't work well with extensive movements, in all probability, due to the crosstalk issues Torger pointed out for the other cameras having the same sensor.

    To talk about MFD without looking at the competitive landscape is simply stupid and ignorant, unless you are into buying prestige of course and in that case why not settle for IQ280?

    I don't know if there are MF lenses matching the Otuses, especially when combined with a 1.3 crop sensor. Techical camera lenses are there, for sure.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I love you guys but why is it that every product announcement here takes no more than 10-15 posts to turn into s discussion over completely different products? I mean I informed you about a new Leaf back and we're now talking Zeiss Otus (for 35mm) and Pentax lenses (that cannot be used with Credo backs AFAIK)...

    Yair (stepping off the soap box)

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Hi,

    Pretty sure that Ricoh is not loosing money on the 645z, but it is possible that they opted for lower margins than usual.

    Obviously, Ricoh can use existing R&D as they are a long time Sony sensor user, and they also can reuse components from their K-series cameras. Being a part of a large company has some benefits.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    The 645z is the new D800.

    I think I've seen another change too, criticism of Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad/Leica pricing is more accepted than before. I guess that's Pentax fault, more obvious now than before there is a different way to sell medium format gear. Higher volumes and lower profit margins.

    Still I've seen some suggest that Pentax camera is too cheap and they may be losing money. I guess time will tell.

    The thing about the Credo 50 I'm most curious about is how similar in image quality it is to the IQ250 (I suspect that they are near 100% identical if you just select the ICC profile of the other back), and how a sales person differentiate the two products, it's $10k to make up for.
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 10th September 2014 at 00:49.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post

    To talk about MFD without looking at the competitive landscape is simply stupid and ignorant

    Best regards
    Erik
    Perhaps you should rephrase this statement Erik

    BR

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    I can rephrase it for him;

    "To consider buying into MFD today without looking at the results achievable by competing systems may cost you a lot of money."

    MF has never before had this tough competition from below (D810, A7r) and within (645z), and never before has the technology been so similar (Sony's CMOS in them all). With so easily comparable systems it has never before been so easy to question pricing.
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Bottom line is that "want" has much more pull than "need", if you want a mfd then why not, this credo is another great option at a cheaper price than the phase in exchange for less functionality in some areas, you pay your money and take your choice.

    There are alternatives to pretty much everything but if you want something then no more justification is required or necessary. I'd love another mf back but I'm a small business so I have to be sensible, if I had the money though I'd buy one, purely because the process of shooting mf, especially on a tech camera is just fantastic and gives so much pleasure.

    Congrats to Leaf for offering an alternative, in these days of economic uncertainty and whinging forum members, it's amazing we have as much choice as we do! Long may it continue.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    As most know by now the Sony CMOS sensors are not great on tech wides. It will work fine with longer focal lengths, so great for things like table-top product photography on your view camera, but not so great for architectural or landscape photography with wide angle, which most use their tech cameras for on this forum.

    This makes the Credo 50, IQ250, CFV-50c and H5D-50c backs MFSLR-backs only to many of us. In that context the 645z becomes even more competitive, as the tech cam argument is not very strong with these backs. But on the other hand, 645z lacks in tethering (at least so far) and leaf shutters and you might just like C1 software and color profiles better, so there's still rational reasons to get the Credo. But I find it most interesting to see how many years into future this type of pricing will work.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Hi,

    OK, here it comes:

    To talk about MFD without looking at the competitive landscape is simply ignorant and stupid.

    Explanation:

    The assumption is made that buyer is looking for a solution to a set of problems. A good buyer looks at alternatives and chooses the one that fits his/her needs best within set limitations. A smart buyer would normally choose the solution with the lowest cost.

    So, LEAF is now offering a Sony Exmor based back that costs like four Pentax 645z (including four cameras) using exactly the same sensor or 12 pieces of A7r (using a slightly smaller Exmor sensor and still including camera bodies.

    So a smart guy checks the alternatives:

    If 50 MP is needed but intention is not to use on MFD on a technical body the Pentax 645z may be an interesting option. It is well the most advanced MF camera. It is also build with high precision as sensor is aligned to the rest of the camera, an advantage of the integrated approach (that also Leica has chosen with the S).

    If 36 MP is enough the D810 or the A7r may be an interesting choice. The A7r obviously has some issues with shutter vibration, but it seems MFD owners are not much disturbed by that issue. In 3-4 months a new Sony is coming with 46 MP, but perhaps a new Phase One camera will hit the market before that?

    If you need leaf shutter, high ISO and so, the CMOS based MFDBs are optimal, you can go with IQ-250, Hasselblad 50c or the new Leaf back. Still some competitive landscape, isn't it?

    If you need tilts and shifts the older CCD based backs may be better.

    So there are a lot of options, simply.

    Best regards
    Erik



    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Perhaps you should rephrase this statement Erik

    BR

    Yair
    Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post

    To talk about MFD without looking at the competitive landscape is simply stupid and ignorant

    Best regards
    Erik
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Erik, I would guess that the issue is not with the argument as it reflects your own personal views, more likely it's the language you used to express that opinion. The words stupid and ignorant are unnecessary in my opinion, if you have a point then at least make it eloquently, failing that just don't bother.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    May I also add that price for me personally is the last thing on my list, if I wanted a MF body/system then it would never be the Pentax for me, the fact that a few lenses are good enough and lots aren't really up to the task means it's off the list. The Phase back is obviously great but if I didn't need the functionality as it is then the Credo would be perfect. Once I have decided what I want then the price dictates how much work I have to do before I can get it, a cheaper option that's almost as good as a system would never get a look in and I'd suggest that I'm not the only one who thinks like that.

    The argument for 35mm is irrelevant if you want a MF system, it doesn't matter what is available or at what cost if you don't want it.

    I have a similar view with A7r and smaller bodies or EVF over optical, we all want different things from functionality so buy what you want, I personally hate the A7 series, EVF for me just doesn't work, I like to frame with an optical viewfinder and switch on live view if/when I want a wysiwyg view, options for me are good.

    Anyway, if you want to give me a Credo nice and cheap Yair then I'm in, maybe I'd get it in H mount and stick it on the H5x, nice!

    Just my views obviously.

    Mat

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    But on the other hand, 645z lacks in tethering (at least so far)...
    You mean the wireless tethering you can get for the 645Z? It would help if there was no tethering, but there is...

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Hi,

    I don't agree on the issue.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Erik, I would guess that the issue is not with the argument as it reflects your own personal views, more likely it's the language you used to express that opinion. The words stupid and ignorant are unnecessary in my opinion, if you have a point then at least make it eloquently, failing that just don't bother.

    Mat
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Still I've seen some suggest that Pentax camera is too cheap and they may be losing money. I guess time will tell.
    Some people think NASA faked the moon landings. Camera enthusiasts are really not a credible source for the business.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    A smart buyer would normally choose the solution with the lowest cost.
    Rubbish. There are other factors in choosing something except cost. There is more to life than cheap economic pseudo-theory.
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You mean the wireless tethering you can get for the 645Z? It would help if there was no tethering, but there is...
    I thought that the wireless tethering was slow and/or unreliable compared to cabled tethering, and cabled tethering is coming later this year, but maybe I'm misinformed?

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Some people think NASA faked the moon landings. Camera enthusiasts are really not a credible source for the business.
    Actually that claim I've heard from a Hasselblad dealer... those are generally camera enthusiasts too though

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Hi,

    Check this: Procurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I have not said that the cheapest solution is normally chosen. What I said:

    "The assumption is made that buyer is looking for a solution to a set of problems. A good buyer looks at alternatives and chooses the one that fits his/her needs best within set limitations. A smart buyer would normally choose the solution with the lowest cost."

    So a buyer would find the solutions that best fits their needs within limitations, than select on price.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Rubbish. There are other factors in choosing something except cost. There is more to life than cheap economic pseudo-theory.
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    I don't agree on the issue.

    Best regards
    Erik
    You're on good form today Erik, good answer.
    Last edited by mjr; 10th September 2014 at 07:08. Reason: Edit because I can't find a "sarcastic" smilie

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Can we calm down a little? The controversy on price wouldn't be there if the difference wasn't so huge with hardware so similar. With Phase/Leaf you pay $15 - $20k per unit as a "business model fee", I think most are aware of that now as it has never been this obvious. Anyone is free to accept that, and the products do provide some unique features that cannot be found elsewhere.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Torger, aren't you just a little bored with going on about the price differences? The prices are what they are, people will buy it or not. It's a commercial industry, if there weren't enough people valuing the brand, product, support, dealers, rental houses etc. etc. then Phase/ Hasselblad wouldn't be in business, they aren't charities. Can't we just accept that there are differences in price and move on?

    I'm quite calm by the way, I've got a nice cup of tea.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Torger, aren't you just a little bored with going on about the price differences? The prices are what they are, people will buy it or not. It's a commercial industry, if there weren't enough people valuing the brand, product, support, dealers, rental houses etc. etc. then Phase/ Hasselblad wouldn't be in business, they aren't charities. Can't we just accept that there are differences in price and move on?
    Well, probably a bit bored by now yes . I'd like to see MF reach broader layers of users, and I also think that the current MF business model cannot hold up forever, so I just sit and wait for the change to come. The business model worked perfectly in 2005 with the huge quality differences between the formats and little possibilities of crossovers. Today the landscape is much different, and I don't think it will turn back, competition will just become tougher. Phase One haven't changed an inch, for each new release some of us hope to see signs of change. So far nothing. I'm patient though, and Hasselblad is showing some signs of change, the H5X is an extremely interesting release in trying to reach broader.
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    Check this: Procurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I have not said that the cheapest solution is normally chosen. What I said:

    "The assumption is made that buyer is looking for a solution to a set of problems. A good buyer looks at alternatives and chooses the one that fits his/her needs best within set limitations. A smart buyer would normally choose the solution with the lowest cost."

    So a buyer would find the solutions that best fits their needs within limitations, than select on price.

    Best regards
    Erik
    I am not a corporation. I don't need a problem to solve to purchase something. Any criteria I use to make my purchase does not make me a good, bad, smart, nor dumb "buyer." Reason cannot always be reduced to simplistic MBA economics. I know it is very fashionable to talk about things in "market" terms, but most people live a human life, or, at least, should.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf announces the New Leaf Credo 50

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Actually that claim I've heard from a Hasselblad dealer... those are generally camera enthusiasts too though
    A Hasselblad dealer? Well, he should know all about Pentax's costs, margins, and sales. Actually, I hate when a dealer makes stuff up to slam the competition--just turns me off.

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