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Arca Swiss Photokina 2014: dEx, FP, CS, DM
- Thread starter dougpeterson
- Start date
stephengilbert
Active member
The prices may be high, but they're far from shocking.
Check out the cost of a Rodenstock electronic shutter at B&H. You'd pay about five thousand dollars for one lens.
Check out the cost of a Rodenstock electronic shutter at B&H. You'd pay about five thousand dollars for one lens.
lance_schad
Workshop Member
Paul
$5,460 is for the MPU,RC &FP which are the base components of the system, the rest is in remounting your lenses.
Do you really need to remount all your focal lengths at once? You could still use your other lenses with the regular adapter and normal tubes.
The nice thing about this system is the flexibility, you are not actually modifying the mount, but just utilizing different size adapter tubes.
For those who are not familiar with the way the Arca-Swiss R-Bayonet system works take a look at the below illustration of the main components: Lens Board, Tube that is matched to focal length of lens, and then the 'rota-slide/mount' spacer tube.
Many are also not aware of the 141x141mm and 110x110mm R-Bayonet lens boards for Arca-Swiss view cameras. You simply just unmount your R-Bayonet lens panels with the Copal or CS shutter right onto your view camera.
More detailed information on Tech Cameras in general can be found on our websitehere
Lance
$5,460 is for the MPU,RC &FP which are the base components of the system, the rest is in remounting your lenses.
Do you really need to remount all your focal lengths at once? You could still use your other lenses with the regular adapter and normal tubes.
The nice thing about this system is the flexibility, you are not actually modifying the mount, but just utilizing different size adapter tubes.
For those who are not familiar with the way the Arca-Swiss R-Bayonet system works take a look at the below illustration of the main components: Lens Board, Tube that is matched to focal length of lens, and then the 'rota-slide/mount' spacer tube.
Many are also not aware of the 141x141mm and 110x110mm R-Bayonet lens boards for Arca-Swiss view cameras. You simply just unmount your R-Bayonet lens panels with the Copal or CS shutter right onto your view camera.
More detailed information on Tech Cameras in general can be found on our websitehere
Lance
Lance:
I don't want to sound like I am trying to shoot the messenger. I am not. You are just passing on the numbers. I appreciate that, and don't want to sound as if I am upset with you or DT. I am not.
Your point of converting only a few lens at time makes sense. I don't want to have a situation where I would be forced to take the FP out in the field due to need to use a lens that was not modified. Damage to the exposed FP would be very possible, even if the shutter opens when removed off the R camera. There would be issues with dirt dust, whatever.
Please try to understand my position. I am a fully 100% committed to the Arca camera. I have had knowledge of the the FP for a while and did not rumor it or pass it on to anyone else, as I appreciated the position of the people that trusted me to the knowledge. I still feel this is the single largest addition to the R camera since the rm3d family.
The cost of entry, is just a lot more than I had thought it would be, that's all. I understand I have to make a decision and move forward, done.
I can see the need for the price of the various pieces of gear to control the shutter and the cost of the shutter, I do have a problem with the cost of the lens tubes, and feel that Arca should be a bit more in tune with their current customers. I own 6 R mounted lenses, and the cost for those mount conversions is 3K, and to be honest, it's a ring. Its a metal ring, that I can take off and put on myself, once some measurements have been taken. That's how I understand it. It's the ring closest to the lens. I have taken this ring off many times. it is not that hard.
OK, I will move on. I understand as all of this equipment comes down to a personal decision of can you justify it against your cost of doing business. I will need to re think the entire issue.
Once again, thanks for taking the time to post the numbers. I want you to know my issues are not with DT or you. My earlier post was just a reflection of my emotions at the time.
Sincerely
Paul
I don't want to sound like I am trying to shoot the messenger. I am not. You are just passing on the numbers. I appreciate that, and don't want to sound as if I am upset with you or DT. I am not.
Your point of converting only a few lens at time makes sense. I don't want to have a situation where I would be forced to take the FP out in the field due to need to use a lens that was not modified. Damage to the exposed FP would be very possible, even if the shutter opens when removed off the R camera. There would be issues with dirt dust, whatever.
Please try to understand my position. I am a fully 100% committed to the Arca camera. I have had knowledge of the the FP for a while and did not rumor it or pass it on to anyone else, as I appreciated the position of the people that trusted me to the knowledge. I still feel this is the single largest addition to the R camera since the rm3d family.
The cost of entry, is just a lot more than I had thought it would be, that's all. I understand I have to make a decision and move forward, done.
I can see the need for the price of the various pieces of gear to control the shutter and the cost of the shutter, I do have a problem with the cost of the lens tubes, and feel that Arca should be a bit more in tune with their current customers. I own 6 R mounted lenses, and the cost for those mount conversions is 3K, and to be honest, it's a ring. Its a metal ring, that I can take off and put on myself, once some measurements have been taken. That's how I understand it. It's the ring closest to the lens. I have taken this ring off many times. it is not that hard.
OK, I will move on. I understand as all of this equipment comes down to a personal decision of can you justify it against your cost of doing business. I will need to re think the entire issue.
Once again, thanks for taking the time to post the numbers. I want you to know my issues are not with DT or you. My earlier post was just a reflection of my emotions at the time.
Sincerely
Paul
Paul, why remount the current R-mount lenses? As far as I can tell, the need for the FP would be for using DSLR lenses such as the TSE24 and/or getting faster shutter speeds.
I find that I have never wanted for faster shutter speeds, especially with the base ISO of 35 on the IQ180. So on the current R-mount lenses, aren't you just adding weight, bulk, and complexity, not to mention taking out the use of Rotaslide/Rotamount?
Now, if I wanted to use a Canon TSE 17 or 24, then the FP would make sense, am I missing something?
I find that I have never wanted for faster shutter speeds, especially with the base ISO of 35 on the IQ180. So on the current R-mount lenses, aren't you just adding weight, bulk, and complexity, not to mention taking out the use of Rotaslide/Rotamount?
Now, if I wanted to use a Canon TSE 17 or 24, then the FP would make sense, am I missing something?
stngoldberg
Well-known member
I love technology....Arca modernized their portfolio of existing products, and I may buy into the new offerings on some of my lenses. BUT I can't help wondering why I may do this as the conversions will not make my images any better other than the ability to stand further away from my camera. To be honest my rig (Arca Rm3di plus H5D50 plus expensive lenses) is so expensive that I feel obligated to stand close to it fearing that some curiosity seeker will knock it over. Unfortunately my rig draws crowds which interferes with my concentration while attempting to manufacture the best image possible, and I don't like being rude....no Lady it's not a Nikon!
Stanley
Stanley
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
I would tend to agree. The FP is there for a variety of applications, most of which don't seem (from my point of view, feel free to correct me) to apply to you:
- longterm safeguard against the eventual loss of copal as a supplier for shutters (along with the Arca CS)
- backup in case a given lens leaf shutter fails in the field
- allowance for unusual lenses not currently usable (vintage brass lenses, macro/englarger/microscope lenses, Canon TS lenses, Nikon lenses, etc)
- option to trigger remotely (e.g. if the camera is mounted overhead, out of reach, or you don't want to be near it for whatever reason*)
- availability of higher shutter speeds
Notably, adding an FP does not require you to permanently change mounts. After the initial purchase/setup you can swap between FP and no-FP by simply removing one ring, and putting the other on. The high cost of the ring is largely because the goal is to maintain the crazy-high level of focus precision (i.e. maintain your same focus-offset) whether you are using the FP or not.
What is the main reason you would be interested?
Alternatively, with the newly announced Arca Universalis you could use the FP without needing the new lens rings, since you'd simply remove the lens from it's rings and put it straight on the Arca lens board (they make an Arca lens board which will directly take the R-mount lenses). This would not have been a suggestion I would have made to you (as a primarily in-the-field user) with the large/heavy Arca M line, but the weight of the Universalis is quite low.
Anyway, the system is becoming even more complete and opening up some truly great possibilities.
*80mp back + German Glass + Arca FP + Movement = Selfies? :ROTFL:
I was looking for the ability to get 1/3 and 1/2 stops with a modern style shutter. I feel the with a CCD there can be a difference if you could shoot between for example 1/15 and 1/30th. It's not as easy to push a CCD as a CMOS chip. If I was using a CMOS chip with greater DR especially in the shadows, this may not be as important.
Plus many of my Copol shutters are not that accurate.
Paul
Paul/Doug,
thanks for the detailed responses. I agree, this does not quite apply to me. I do find that with the Rodie lenses, I am usually at f8/9 and just vary my exposure time for the most part, and check the histogram for exposure.
Ability to use the TSE 17 is tempting, but not at the cost of portability and simplicity. While there are aspects of redundancy here, you do introduce more electronics, batteries, cables etc. Another unknown is the WIFI between RC and MPU. I would think this is based on some form of NFC, but NFC was not really designed for sustained, ongoing connections. I know the IQ2 series is using it, but would be interesting to see how stable it is.
Of most interest to me in all the bits that have been announced is the new Cloud Module and its ability to provide focus distances at a more granular level. I do feel that we are not fully exploiting the refinement in the R-mount helical with focus charts and the two versions of the eModule Cloud released to date.
thanks for the detailed responses. I agree, this does not quite apply to me. I do find that with the Rodie lenses, I am usually at f8/9 and just vary my exposure time for the most part, and check the histogram for exposure.
Ability to use the TSE 17 is tempting, but not at the cost of portability and simplicity. While there are aspects of redundancy here, you do introduce more electronics, batteries, cables etc. Another unknown is the WIFI between RC and MPU. I would think this is based on some form of NFC, but NFC was not really designed for sustained, ongoing connections. I know the IQ2 series is using it, but would be interesting to see how stable it is.
Of most interest to me in all the bits that have been announced is the new Cloud Module and its ability to provide focus distances at a more granular level. I do feel that we are not fully exploiting the refinement in the R-mount helical with focus charts and the two versions of the eModule Cloud released to date.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
That's reasonable. It would accomplish this goal for you as the aperture control on the lens would remain physically fixed (and therefore by definition entirely repeatable and precise) and the shutter speed could be controlled very accurately in small steps.
In fact with both the FP and CS the expectation is 1/4th of a stop control. But in deeper conversations with Arca this is an artificial limit rather than an absolute physical-control limitation. It's very possible that the final unit could be made to accurately achieve much finer changes in exposure, and the main question will be whether there is any value in, e.g. 1/5th or 1/10th of a stop increments, as compared to the increased UI complexity and slower operation of such a fine-grain adjustment.
Sorry Rod, you lost me - the CS shutter unit has a published max. speed of 1/250s - stopping-down obviously reduces the amount of transmitted light (all other things being equal), but how does it physically increase the top shutter speed?
Jim
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
The shutter opens from a closed state, continues opening until the entire lens opening is shown, and then starts closing again. So the size of the aperture and the copal-size being covered dictates how large of an opening it has to reveal - i.e. how far it has to go before starting to reclose. You could, on every shutter speed, have the shutter open 100% and close 100%, but for an f/22 exposure you'd find that most of that motion was wasted, since after a few microseconds the shutter was opening into an area which was being blocked from seeing light by the aperture.
Said differently: the absolute physical speed at which the shutter is operating is the same, but it only has to go part of the way.
Since the 1/250th spec is for full aperture with a Copal 1 lens, it's very likely the max speed relevant to most users of this forum will be significantly faster. But I'd wait for final testing and a production unit before making any assumptions about how much faster.
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dougpeterson
Workshop Member
cunim
Well-known member
Doug, rereading your advice above I note this:
Simply remount your lenses (which are currently in Copal and Rollei shutter mounts) into Arca CS mounts
I understand what a CS is, but I am not sure what the term "CS mount" means. Rollei and Copal shutters mount to flat boards. In the same spirit, I would expect to keep using the Arca 110 mm boards and just swap out the Rollei and Copal shutters. Does the CS mount to my boards or is there some other expensive component (a CS mount) that needs to be added?
Simply remount your lenses (which are currently in Copal and Rollei shutter mounts) into Arca CS mounts
I understand what a CS is, but I am not sure what the term "CS mount" means. Rollei and Copal shutters mount to flat boards. In the same spirit, I would expect to keep using the Arca 110 mm boards and just swap out the Rollei and Copal shutters. Does the CS mount to my boards or is there some other expensive component (a CS mount) that needs to be added?
Hi Rod,
On the F Universalis, with a Sony A7R mounted on it, what kind of "short focal lengths" (press release: The reduced distance between the front and rear standards makes it possible to use very short focal length lenses, ideal for architectural photography) would we be talking about? Canon 17mm shift? If so, what sort of additional usable movements would be possible with the F Universalis?
Thanks.
On the F Universalis, with a Sony A7R mounted on it, what kind of "short focal lengths" (press release: The reduced distance between the front and rear standards makes it possible to use very short focal length lenses, ideal for architectural photography) would we be talking about? Canon 17mm shift? If so, what sort of additional usable movements would be possible with the F Universalis?
Thanks.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
I'm sure you'd have the option of mounting into a flat 110 board. But I'd recommend mounting into an Arca R lens mount since you could then easily use it on either an M or R (or F or Univeralis) camera.
I saw the Universalis at the Photokina yesterday. I even got a little "tour" of the beast by Martin Vogt himself. Call me impressed !
This thing is tiny ! When you see the pictures, you think "ok, it's one of those enormous view cameras". But not at all. It's actually very lightweight (about 1kg without lens or digiback), which is similar to a Factum (!). Acording to Martin, this camera is made to be taken outside in the field, just as an Rm3Di or Factum.
And the versatility is mind boggling ! By adding a little adapter, you can use either Arca-Swiss R lenses (yay!), or for example Hassi V lenses (the lens needs a shutter). At the other end: it can be a Phase one back, or your Sony Alpha 7R, just by changing a little interface piece.
And you get movements (precision of those is Arca-style, of course). Just Wow !
If I didn't already have a Factum, I would seriously consider a Universalis instead, as you have so many options. One (minor) drawback is that if you keep the thing ready for action, it's a bit awkward to transport. But of course, if you dismount it, it gets really small and flat.
Another tidbit of information I got was that the new Cloud DM module requires the dEX module. There's no display on the new cloud, so you read the focusing distance on the display of the dEx.
All in all, great new ways of spending $$$ on Arca stuff
Thanks again to Martin for taking time to show me his new creations...
This thing is tiny ! When you see the pictures, you think "ok, it's one of those enormous view cameras". But not at all. It's actually very lightweight (about 1kg without lens or digiback), which is similar to a Factum (!). Acording to Martin, this camera is made to be taken outside in the field, just as an Rm3Di or Factum.
And the versatility is mind boggling ! By adding a little adapter, you can use either Arca-Swiss R lenses (yay!), or for example Hassi V lenses (the lens needs a shutter). At the other end: it can be a Phase one back, or your Sony Alpha 7R, just by changing a little interface piece.
And you get movements (precision of those is Arca-style, of course). Just Wow !
If I didn't already have a Factum, I would seriously consider a Universalis instead, as you have so many options. One (minor) drawback is that if you keep the thing ready for action, it's a bit awkward to transport. But of course, if you dismount it, it gets really small and flat.
Another tidbit of information I got was that the new Cloud DM module requires the dEX module. There's no display on the new cloud, so you read the focusing distance on the display of the dEx.
All in all, great new ways of spending $$$ on Arca stuff
Thanks again to Martin for taking time to show me his new creations...gmfotografie
Well-known member
:-D I saw it too.
I don´t ask the question there beacuse i was fixed on the Rm3Di...: Is it possible to use the new CFV-50c Digipack and also Analog 4x5inch Film on this System ?
I don´t ask the question there beacuse i was fixed on the Rm3Di...: Is it possible to use the new CFV-50c Digipack and also Analog 4x5inch Film on this System ?