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Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

Paul2660

Well-known member
Guy, I can see your point, but if Torger is correct, that's a shame. I am pretty sure that most feel who use Tech cameras on this forum and others, that there is room (major IMO) for LCC improvements. Both in tiling issues ( I realize some of this is a back calibration) and ripple. I still have issues on my 40 Rodenstock on 15mm shifts after the LCC correction as Capture One can't quite get the blue sky true, more of a red tint.

I will say now that C1 8 has WB correction in local adjustments :) This is a much easier fix.

I just hate to see the tech market (Cambo, Arca and others) get locked out of quality improvements in the LCC algorithms. Makes no sense to me.

Torger has pointed out that crosstalk seemingly can't be corrected in LCC, but maybe Alpa and Phase have figured out a fix (IQ250), who knows.

Paul
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I am ready to ditch the DF+ in a heart beat.
If you are looking for a DF replacement, it will not be from Alpa. Unfortunately, I think Phase bought the right to manufacture Mamiya camera out of convenience. They did not get Mamiya's camera engineers. Without that talent, I doubt you are going to see any real progress in the DF. At least, that is what it looks like.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
If I take a picture with a "fine art" camera is it a "fine art" photograph? I think Alpa's marketing has hit an all time high. At least I have never seen it piled so high nor so deep. Sorry, but this type of marketing just turns me off.
 

narikin

New member
I suspect we have been letting our hopes carry us away. :(

It's probably just the addition of lens distortion/correction into Capture One. Maybe with a re-branded/bundled TC package on sale. The 'new camera system' could be precisely that, the addition of Alpa's tech cam system's lens range into C1 supported lens correction presets.

I really hope to be proven wrong, though.
 

miska

Member
I hope (at least some of) the Phase One improvements are going to benefit all tech cam users, not just those using Alpa...
 

torger

Active member
If I take a picture with a "fine art" camera is it a "fine art" photograph? I think Alpa's marketing has hit an all time high. At least I have never seen it piled so high nor so deep. Sorry, but this type of marketing just turns me off.
To me "fine art" just means "fine art prints" which just means images with technical high quality. So a "fine art camera" sounds like a camera which provides images with really high technical quality. Nothing about the quality of art... that's at least how I interpret the "fine art" term, but I'm not native speaking...
 

Shashin

Well-known member
To me "fine art" just means "fine art prints" which just means images with technical high quality. So a "fine art camera" sounds like a camera which provides images with really high technical quality. Nothing about the quality of art... that's at least how I interpret the "fine art" term, but I'm not native speaking...
In English, the term is pretentious. Fine art does not mean having high technical quality. Commercial work can be just as high.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I hope (at least some of) the Phase One improvements are going to benefit all tech cam users, not just those using Alpa...
LCC and lens corrections would apply to all Schneider/rodenstock lenses whether mounted on an Alpa or any other tech camera. Alpa already have the lens correction libraries as a PS plugin today and they don't care which mount or body you use.

Regarding the tie up, I'm sure that's more driven by the forward thinking folks at Alpa vs Phase One. The FPS body and system really does make Alpa an ideal partner for the niche that the FPS fills and it's hugely versatile lens & back compatibility.

Regarding the 'luxury' fears - Alpa are not in the lipstick on a pig business. Sure there are some exotic wood grips and a silver TC version but these are all functional parts that you can chose to buy or not. However, we are not talking Hassony Lunar, Walrus scrotum covered Leicas or Ferrari red badged Hassy's here.

Alpa gear is just plain expensive. However, it is exquisitely made and stood behind by a small company that chooses to manufacture in possibly one of the most expensive regions of the world and at small volumes too.

Note: I'm an unashamed Alpa bigot. :)
 

torger

Active member
In English, the term is pretentious. Fine art does not mean having high technical quality. Commercial work can be just as high.
This is what I associate the term to:
Amazon.com: Fine Art Printing for Photographers: Exhibition Quality Prints with Inkjet Printers, 2nd Edition (9781933952314): Uwe Steinmueller, Juergen Gulbins: Books

Ie it has nothing to do with pretentious. "Fine art photography" just means you shoot photography to make high quality prints, likely large ones.

I'm pushing/testing this with you because I'm myself using "fine art" in the meaning "technical high quality printmaking" because I thought that was the widespread understanding of the term... but if I seem like a pretentious j*rk doing it I think I'll stop using the term :)
 

gazwas

Active member
Regarding the tie up, I'm sure that's more driven by the forward thinking folks at Alpa vs Phase One. The FPS body and system really does make Alpa an ideal partner for the niche that the FPS fills and it's hugely versatile lens & back compatibility.
I really don't see how a strategic collaboration with one MFD manufacturer could benefit the format as a whole. If Alpa are so "forward thinking" why not with the other companies rather than just the (currently) most successful one?
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
. . . . However, it is exquisitely made and stood behind by a small company
Note: I'm an unashamed Alpa bigot. :)
I believe by FINE ART they mean , how exquisitely and precise the products are made . The highest level of craftsmanship . The "fine art" of producing technical gear .

Note: I'm an unashamed Alpa bigot as well .:):)
 

narikin

New member
In English, the term is pretentious. Fine art does not mean having high technical quality. Commercial work can be just as high.
It is not a pretentious term on its own, it is simply meant to indicate someone who is driven to create work that communicates something about this world, rather than commercial work that sells something for a client. Both can be higher or lower in their technical skill, as that is not always relevant.

I am unclear what they are trying to suggest with a 'Fine Art Camera System' too, but many of the most respected Fine Art Photographers out there are using Alpa as part of their gear, so it's obviously an important market for them. And, on a practical basis: many (but not all) fine art photographers make big prints and need Max MF digital quality from a smaller sized package, so maybe Alpa provides one of the best answers to fulfill this.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I believe by FINE ART they mean , how exquisitely and precise the products are made . The highest level of craftsmanship . The "fine art" of producing technical gear .

Note: I'm an unashamed Alpa bigot as well .:):)
Ironically, a humble DSLR can have higher precision than an Alpa. The TC is a machined block of metal, which is not exactly a huge deal in a world with CNC machines--just ask Seitz. Hasselblad and Leica leave what Alpa does far behind.

Alpa makes fine cameras. But so does everyone else.
 

danlindberg

Well-known member
Congratulations to both companies :clap:

The only outcome possible are highly desirable photographic tools. Very much looking forward to see this partnership evolve. GREAT!
 

darr

Well-known member
Adding "Fine Art" is simply a marketing strategy as ANY camera can be a tool in the fine art process. Time to dump all your MF gear in hopes the new stuff brings the magic bullet. Business as usual. :)
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Adding "Fine Art" is simply a marketing strategy as ANY camera can be a tool in the fine art process. Time to dump all your MF gear in hopes the new stuff brings the magic bullet. Business as usual. :)
Or keep it all, and assume the marketing frenzy is at an unusually high pitch. Especially if what you have works just fine….
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Ironically, a humble DSLR can have higher precision than an Alpa. The TC is a machined block of metal, which is not exactly a huge deal in a world with CNC machines--just ask Seitz. Hasselblad and Leica leave what Alpa does far behind.

Alpa makes fine cameras. But so does everyone else.
Absolutely. Btw, for those that don't know, Seitz actually make the Alpa bodies and I would presume the lens mounts too.

I totally agree that all of the current crop of tech manufacturers have excellent products. I've always said that myself and would happily shoot with Cambo, Arca or Sinar (which looks every bit as well made as the Alpas - maybe Seitz again?).

Nothing is stopping Cambo or Arca or any of the others from forging the same relationships. I suspect that Phase One and Alpa just got'er done ... So now anybody else is just playing catch up.

Btw, don't forget also the potential Phase One tie up with Alpa due to not just their traditional cameras but also the industrial and specialist camera side. Both companies play in that space.
 

torger

Active member
We tech cam users are obviously not so hard to impress.

I mean, really old-school inprecise mechanical shutters with far from round aperture, or cluttered cabling-everywhere electronic shutters, no movement data in the raw files, having to do LCC manually, experiencing irrecoverable crosstalk for some back/lens combinations, which they are you need to figure out yourself. Just now live view starts to appear, but then wide angles don't really work. And when tech cam makers do electronics, it looks bulky and boxy.

Compared to any DSLR, tech cameras are actually looking like student hacks with total lack of integration.

Indeed, I find the low tech hack part of it to be a bit charming (I'm not too hard to impress either), but I'm not sure that's how you would design a system to make it commercially successful. Live view, lens range that works without issues, movement data in EXIF data, auto-LCC and lens corrections, no cables hanging around, one battery source... that is what a well-designed tech cam with broad appeal would have. On the other hand I hope development will be a bit slow still, as the sensor technology is not really here to support tech lens designs well, if manufacturers are in a hurry they will ditch tech lens designs and we'll end up with just another A7r but with a bit larger sensor.
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
Torger

Basically you are right , but for tech cams your ideas will always stay dreams .
Think of the many combinations of , start from the front , lens > tech cam body > digital back > software (converter) . LCC and other needs .
I believe , technically an integration could be achieved , but the effort and costs needed to do this by no means stand in any relation to the benefit and what could be earned with that integration .
In other words , shooting digital with a tech cam is like a bit back to the roots of photography but using "high tech" gear . And it surely will always be like that .
I do not see a disadvantage here . I like to shoot that way even with failures like in my LF time . Failures we all experienced .
 
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