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Thread: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

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    Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Now this should be interesting:

    ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - News

    I wonder how long this will take to get it into photographers hands and what comes out of this collaboration.

    I am ready to ditch the DF+ in a heart beat.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Wow!

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Hmmm. Very mysterious. I wonder what this means in practice. I am a bit worried by the many references to "premium", and hope they do not want to create luxury cameras like Hassi did...
    For me, the point of Alpa (or Arca) is not "premium", but rather specialty.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Ok let the speculation begin.

    I'll start...

    Basically an FPS cut down to half the width, with an EVF utilising the output from the IQ250 (and subsequent CMOS backs).

    Mirrorless MF.
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Hmm, from the press release there's indications that they're making a new "compact" medium format camera. I'd guess it will be some sort of luxury mirrorless camera rather than a tech cam with movements.

    I agree with Miska, I've not seen Alpa as a luxury brand but rather speciality, but everyone's seems to want to move into luxury, I guess that's what the amateur market wants.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Sounds about right. A modular MF camera finally, kind of like a RED.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    WOW . Unexpected .
    Impatiently waiting for more info .
    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Ok let the speculation begin.

    I'll start...

    Basically an FPS cut down to half the width, with an EVF utilising the output from the IQ250 (and subsequent CMOS backs).

    Mirrorless MF.
    Whatever product we will see , it is said to be FULL FORMAT MF .
    IMO , we can expect it to be at the top of HIGH END MF tools .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    WOW . Unexpected .
    Impatiently waiting for more info .


    Whatever product we will see , it is said to be FULL FORMAT MF .
    IMO , we can expect it to be at the top of HIGH END MF tools .
    I'm a bit more skeptical, I think it will be some sort of a luxury product rather than intended as a high end professional tool.

    Making an MF camera more compact, it's not really what a pro working with technical MF photography needs IMHO. It's what a travelling amateur that's bored of the latest Leica limited edition needs.

    In the best scenario this collaboration means that Alpa technical bodies get an electronic interface to M-mount backs so we can get tilt/shift/aperture into EXIF data and automatic LCC in Capture One, and no need for synch cable. In the worst scenario this is just a new compact mirrorless luxury product with no movements.
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I'm a bit more skeptical, I think it will be some sort of a luxury product rather than intended as a high end professional tool.

    Making an MF camera more compact, it's not really what a pro working with technical MF photography needs IMHO. It's what a travelling amateur that's bored of the latest Leica limited edition needs.

    In the best scenario this collaboration means that Alpa technical bodies get an electronic interface to M-mount backs so we can get tilt/shift/aperture into EXIF data and automatic LCC in Capture One, and no need for synch cable. In the worst scenario this is just a new compact mirrorless luxury product with no movements.

    I can hardly imagine ALPA and PHASE ONE to cooperate just to create an other luxury and superfluous camera .
    These two companies stand for making tools NOT toys .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I can hardly imagine ALPA and PHASE ONE to cooperate just to create an other luxury and superfluous camera .
    These two companies stand for making tools NOT toys .
    I hope I'm wrong and you're right. Phase One has made limited edition CEO signed versions of their backs for the asian market. Hasselblad has further moved into trying to sell luxury products, Leica too has increased their intensity of luxury goods. I'm thinking maybe it's a trend. I guess it was mentioning the word "compact" that made me a bit skeptical, it's to me like trying to make the product more attractive and user-friendly for the layman.

    On the other hand, they do target "the most demanding fine-art photographer" and making a system compact may just be a response to how great image quality you now can get from mirrorless 135 cameras like the current A7r, which indeed are much more compact and easier to bring. If it won't have movements, I'm saddened though. I've been worried that tech cams will evolve from large format view camera style with plenty of movements into nothing more than an enlarged 135 mirrorless, where pixelpeep resolution is the only real added value.

    It shall be exciting to see what this collaboration will bring.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Ok let the speculation begin.

    I'll start...

    Basically an FPS cut down to half the width, with an EVF utilising the output from the IQ250 (and subsequent CMOS backs).

    Mirrorless MF.
    Agree. This is exactly what I would imagine/hope.

    A compact FPS, with full integration to a Phase One FF back, possibly including single battery power. Will allow use of tech cam lenses and all other system lenses, including existing Phase One lenses, on a mirrorless system.

    Tilt, shift, rise/fall all available via the new adapters. EVF live view focusing, with 10x magnification and focus peaking.

    Not sure why it's 'Fine Art' but, whatever. I've been with Alpa for 6+ years, so "in for a penny..."
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Intriguing and interesting indeed, I wonder what they will come up with. New ideas and some innovation in digital MF can't hurt.
    Not sure I'm very fond of the "premium" and "fine art" references though, whatever they mean.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    I am hoping it really is a new camera in the future, not a re-hashed package (FPS + IQ260) with Phase One support for Alpa lens corrections built into C1.

    They could be permanently grafting a Phase One back onto an FPS style body, to create a new hybrid (FPSrankenstein? Phrankenfpstein?!) with the addition of EVF live view focusing.

    That most likely would be the Sony CMOS sensor, except they state it is an FF solution, which the Sony famously is not. Plus it is also not Alpa style to permanently fix any technological component to their bodies.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Looks like it's a TC body.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Frederic View Post
    Intriguing and interesting indeed, I wonder what they will come up with. New ideas and some innovation in digital MF can't hurt.
    Not sure I'm very fond of the "premium" and "fine art" references though, whatever they mean.
    "Fine art" to me just means slow style photography (landscape, architecture, still life etc) and making large prints of that. It's the print that are technically very fine, not necessarily the art that's good

    "Premium" to me generally means "very high quality, but with an even higher price"

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Frederic View Post
    Looks like it's a TC body.

    Starting with a TC. And for the future includes some interesting features regarding LCC processing, referenced by Mr Torger, so far only for TC. This is only a beginning and the wording is "long term". Phase One has produced bundles in the past (with Cambo, Arca Swiss, Horseman). This is different.


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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Guess there are more Alpa users out there than I thought. Sad to to Phase One feel its important to favor one brand over the rest with technological improvement For SURE there is room for improvement on the current LCC processing. As the tech market has always been listed by the dealers on this site as a small and limited portion of the overall market, to load and go with only one vendor seems a bit odd. But that's kinda par for the course with Phase One except for Capture 1.

    Paul

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Paul might just depend on what they intend to do and Alpa wanted to team up with them. Really if we think about it phase one backs and credos for that matter make the most sense for tech cams manufactures. Alpa may just have got the jump on it over Cambo and Arca.

    My hope it's not 3 years away but far sooner they have something in place
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    In the start it could just be some minor software feature in Capture One and a Phase One digital back + Alpa TC bundle, with collaboration in marketing. A very small effort for them both (no new hardware), but a win-win for both companies concerning sales.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    I agree and with no new camera body from phase which is pathetic BTW than this at least maybe a useful pairing.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Guy, I can see your point, but if Torger is correct, that's a shame. I am pretty sure that most feel who use Tech cameras on this forum and others, that there is room (major IMO) for LCC improvements. Both in tiling issues ( I realize some of this is a back calibration) and ripple. I still have issues on my 40 Rodenstock on 15mm shifts after the LCC correction as Capture One can't quite get the blue sky true, more of a red tint.

    I will say now that C1 8 has WB correction in local adjustments This is a much easier fix.

    I just hate to see the tech market (Cambo, Arca and others) get locked out of quality improvements in the LCC algorithms. Makes no sense to me.

    Torger has pointed out that crosstalk seemingly can't be corrected in LCC, but maybe Alpa and Phase have figured out a fix (IQ250), who knows.

    Paul

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by rupho View Post
    I am ready to ditch the DF+ in a heart beat.
    If you are looking for a DF replacement, it will not be from Alpa. Unfortunately, I think Phase bought the right to manufacture Mamiya camera out of convenience. They did not get Mamiya's camera engineers. Without that talent, I doubt you are going to see any real progress in the DF. At least, that is what it looks like.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    If I take a picture with a "fine art" camera is it a "fine art" photograph? I think Alpa's marketing has hit an all time high. At least I have never seen it piled so high nor so deep. Sorry, but this type of marketing just turns me off.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    I suspect we have been letting our hopes carry us away.

    It's probably just the addition of lens distortion/correction into Capture One. Maybe with a re-branded/bundled TC package on sale. The 'new camera system' could be precisely that, the addition of Alpa's tech cam system's lens range into C1 supported lens correction presets.

    I really hope to be proven wrong, though.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    I hope (at least some of) the Phase One improvements are going to benefit all tech cam users, not just those using Alpa...

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    If I take a picture with a "fine art" camera is it a "fine art" photograph? I think Alpa's marketing has hit an all time high. At least I have never seen it piled so high nor so deep. Sorry, but this type of marketing just turns me off.
    To me "fine art" just means "fine art prints" which just means images with technical high quality. So a "fine art camera" sounds like a camera which provides images with really high technical quality. Nothing about the quality of art... that's at least how I interpret the "fine art" term, but I'm not native speaking...

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    To me "fine art" just means "fine art prints" which just means images with technical high quality. So a "fine art camera" sounds like a camera which provides images with really high technical quality. Nothing about the quality of art... that's at least how I interpret the "fine art" term, but I'm not native speaking...
    In English, the term is pretentious. Fine art does not mean having high technical quality. Commercial work can be just as high.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    I hope (at least some of) the Phase One improvements are going to benefit all tech cam users, not just those using Alpa...
    LCC and lens corrections would apply to all Schneider/rodenstock lenses whether mounted on an Alpa or any other tech camera. Alpa already have the lens correction libraries as a PS plugin today and they don't care which mount or body you use.

    Regarding the tie up, I'm sure that's more driven by the forward thinking folks at Alpa vs Phase One. The FPS body and system really does make Alpa an ideal partner for the niche that the FPS fills and it's hugely versatile lens & back compatibility.

    Regarding the 'luxury' fears - Alpa are not in the lipstick on a pig business. Sure there are some exotic wood grips and a silver TC version but these are all functional parts that you can chose to buy or not. However, we are not talking Hassony Lunar, Walrus scrotum covered Leicas or Ferrari red badged Hassy's here.

    Alpa gear is just plain expensive. However, it is exquisitely made and stood behind by a small company that chooses to manufacture in possibly one of the most expensive regions of the world and at small volumes too.

    Note: I'm an unashamed Alpa bigot.
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    In English, the term is pretentious. Fine art does not mean having high technical quality. Commercial work can be just as high.
    This is what I associate the term to:
    Amazon.com: Fine Art Printing for Photographers: Exhibition Quality Prints with Inkjet Printers, 2nd Edition (9781933952314): Uwe Steinmueller, Juergen Gulbins: Books

    Ie it has nothing to do with pretentious. "Fine art photography" just means you shoot photography to make high quality prints, likely large ones.

    I'm pushing/testing this with you because I'm myself using "fine art" in the meaning "technical high quality printmaking" because I thought that was the widespread understanding of the term... but if I seem like a pretentious j*rk doing it I think I'll stop using the term

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Regarding the tie up, I'm sure that's more driven by the forward thinking folks at Alpa vs Phase One. The FPS body and system really does make Alpa an ideal partner for the niche that the FPS fills and it's hugely versatile lens & back compatibility.
    I really don't see how a strategic collaboration with one MFD manufacturer could benefit the format as a whole. If Alpa are so "forward thinking" why not with the other companies rather than just the (currently) most successful one?

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    . . . . However, it is exquisitely made and stood behind by a small company
    Note: I'm an unashamed Alpa bigot.
    I believe by FINE ART they mean , how exquisitely and precise the products are made . The highest level of craftsmanship . The "fine art" of producing technical gear .

    Note: I'm an unashamed Alpa bigot as well .
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    In English, the term is pretentious. Fine art does not mean having high technical quality. Commercial work can be just as high.
    It is not a pretentious term on its own, it is simply meant to indicate someone who is driven to create work that communicates something about this world, rather than commercial work that sells something for a client. Both can be higher or lower in their technical skill, as that is not always relevant.

    I am unclear what they are trying to suggest with a 'Fine Art Camera System' too, but many of the most respected Fine Art Photographers out there are using Alpa as part of their gear, so it's obviously an important market for them. And, on a practical basis: many (but not all) fine art photographers make big prints and need Max MF digital quality from a smaller sized package, so maybe Alpa provides one of the best answers to fulfill this.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I believe by FINE ART they mean , how exquisitely and precise the products are made . The highest level of craftsmanship . The "fine art" of producing technical gear .

    Note: I'm an unashamed Alpa bigot as well .
    Ironically, a humble DSLR can have higher precision than an Alpa. The TC is a machined block of metal, which is not exactly a huge deal in a world with CNC machines--just ask Seitz. Hasselblad and Leica leave what Alpa does far behind.

    Alpa makes fine cameras. But so does everyone else.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Congratulations to both companies

    The only outcome possible are highly desirable photographic tools. Very much looking forward to see this partnership evolve. GREAT!
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Adding "Fine Art" is simply a marketing strategy as ANY camera can be a tool in the fine art process. Time to dump all your MF gear in hopes the new stuff brings the magic bullet. Business as usual.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    Adding "Fine Art" is simply a marketing strategy as ANY camera can be a tool in the fine art process. Time to dump all your MF gear in hopes the new stuff brings the magic bullet. Business as usual.
    Or keep it all, and assume the marketing frenzy is at an unusually high pitch. Especially if what you have works just fine….
    www.gigi-photos.com
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Hope it is a half sized FPS too, or a thinned Phaseone iXA with FPS modular front plate.


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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Ironically, a humble DSLR can have higher precision than an Alpa. The TC is a machined block of metal, which is not exactly a huge deal in a world with CNC machines--just ask Seitz. Hasselblad and Leica leave what Alpa does far behind.

    Alpa makes fine cameras. But so does everyone else.
    Absolutely. Btw, for those that don't know, Seitz actually make the Alpa bodies and I would presume the lens mounts too.

    I totally agree that all of the current crop of tech manufacturers have excellent products. I've always said that myself and would happily shoot with Cambo, Arca or Sinar (which looks every bit as well made as the Alpas - maybe Seitz again?).

    Nothing is stopping Cambo or Arca or any of the others from forging the same relationships. I suspect that Phase One and Alpa just got'er done ... So now anybody else is just playing catch up.

    Btw, don't forget also the potential Phase One tie up with Alpa due to not just their traditional cameras but also the industrial and specialist camera side. Both companies play in that space.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    We tech cam users are obviously not so hard to impress.

    I mean, really old-school inprecise mechanical shutters with far from round aperture, or cluttered cabling-everywhere electronic shutters, no movement data in the raw files, having to do LCC manually, experiencing irrecoverable crosstalk for some back/lens combinations, which they are you need to figure out yourself. Just now live view starts to appear, but then wide angles don't really work. And when tech cam makers do electronics, it looks bulky and boxy.

    Compared to any DSLR, tech cameras are actually looking like student hacks with total lack of integration.

    Indeed, I find the low tech hack part of it to be a bit charming (I'm not too hard to impress either), but I'm not sure that's how you would design a system to make it commercially successful. Live view, lens range that works without issues, movement data in EXIF data, auto-LCC and lens corrections, no cables hanging around, one battery source... that is what a well-designed tech cam with broad appeal would have. On the other hand I hope development will be a bit slow still, as the sensor technology is not really here to support tech lens designs well, if manufacturers are in a hurry they will ditch tech lens designs and we'll end up with just another A7r but with a bit larger sensor.
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Torger

    Basically you are right , but for tech cams your ideas will always stay dreams .
    Think of the many combinations of , start from the front , lens > tech cam body > digital back > software (converter) . LCC and other needs .
    I believe , technically an integration could be achieved , but the effort and costs needed to do this by no means stand in any relation to the benefit and what could be earned with that integration .
    In other words , shooting digital with a tech cam is like a bit back to the roots of photography but using "high tech" gear . And it surely will always be like that .
    I do not see a disadvantage here . I like to shoot that way even with failures like in my LF time . Failures we all experienced .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    the future is there I think...but there still has to be a market for it. There seems to be a market for technical cameras, both pros and fine art amateurs love Alpa, Arca, Linhof, Silvestri.
    and than there is this:

    CAPcam - CAPcam
    I will have a look saturday at the Kina

    Studio pros would love a thing like this. But after all those years of decline in the view camera sector, is ther still a market for these?

  42. #42
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Integration between components, i.e. getting each part to "talk" to each other is key here. It's obviously not going to happen with the current crop of lenses from Rodenstock and Schneider. I'm guessing the Mamiya / Phase lenses communicate focus distance and aperture though? They could make an FPS like unit communicate with those lenses, I guess. Other than that, I imagine they'd have to introduce a brand new line of lenses, or a different type of lens mount if they want true integration and technical camera movements.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Well, in the Arca-Swiss system, the focusing mechanism does have an encoder, so it can report (to the e-module Cloud) the distance to which it is focused. You could imaging to also put encoders on the tilt and shift mechanisms. These could be used to report back to the camera, which then would write them to the EXIF.
    With that data in the EXIF, you could automatically perform LCC (from a library of LCCs, measured for each position).
    That would be quite nice...
    I imagine that Alpa & P1 are thinking about something like this.

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    I would probably continue with manual LCC anyway though, as I like the dust spot cleaning feature of it. For the big crowd a more integrated system would probably make the systems gain popularity though.

    A big seller would be a well-integrated system with higher pixel count and sharper lenses than anyone else (CMOS ISO and live view of course, the broad range of users take that for granted by now). Resolving power sells. I think movements are secondary from a commercial point of view. Only back rise/fall would reach far.

    My personal desires of the future of tech cams are quite different, but unfortunately probably less commercial.

  45. #45
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Absolutely. Btw, for those that don't know, Seitz actually make the Alpa bodies and I would presume the lens mounts too.

    I totally agree that all of the current crop of tech manufacturers have excellent products. I've always said that myself and would happily shoot with Cambo, Arca or Sinar (which looks every bit as well made as the Alpas - maybe Seitz again?).

    Nothing is stopping Cambo or Arca or any of the others from forging the same relationships. I suspect that Phase One and Alpa just got'er done ... So now anybody else is just playing catch up.

    Btw, don't forget also the potential Phase One tie up with Alpa due to not just their traditional cameras but also the industrial and specialist camera side. Both companies play in that space.

    Yes - agree with all you've said here, Graham. In our industry, there is very rarely any locking out, but more often a price of entry, a time to market, a commitment of some sort, that moves collaboration forward or backward.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    So after the initial excitement, it appears this camera is basically a bundle of the IQ250, Alpa TC, and Rodenstock 23HR.

    Hmm...
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    I heard new body prototype has been in beta testing...I hope it is not from Alpa collaboration.

    We need a new BODY that is great for COMMERCIAL job, most of us dont need new technical body to play with! Most commercial job cant be done with technical camera!

    We need body with nice fast autofocus feature with multiple points and the ability to focus accurately in any light environment.

  48. #48
    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    So after the initial excitement, it appears this camera is basically a bundle of the IQ250, Alpa TC, and Rodenstock 23HR.

    Hmm...
    Plus Capture One Pro 8 + Capture Pilot . But what is so special about that combo . And why the 23HR ? . More and detailed info is required to understand .

    Hmm . . . , yes , a big Hmm . . .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    At the danger of sounding totally outdated, but why not the (discontinued by Alpa) SK24XL - it has perfect coverage on this sensor and is super sharp, no flare problems, a lot more compact that the Rodenstock - but that may that's just be me :-).

    Cheers, -Peter
    Alpa TC • STC | IQ140 | 24XL • 35XL • 120N-ASPH
    www.peterlomdahl.com

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    Re: Alpa and Phase One fine art camera collaboration announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    I heard new body prototype has been in beta testing...I hope it is not from Alpa collaboration.

    We need a new BODY that is great for COMMERCIAL job, most of us dont need new technical body to play with! Most commercial job cant be done with technical camera!
    The Alpa TC + IQ2 Camera Bundle has nothing to do with R+D for the next Phase One SLR Body.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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