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Thread: Some really better bits

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    Some really better bits

    It seems to me that the investment and trouble of MF are becoming more difficult to justify. I love my IQ180, but I can no longer show just anyone that the images it makes on a DF camera are obviously superior. Takes a reasonably skilled eye to see the differences and the 35mm cameras continue to improve - quickly. MF, not so much.

    So, what could be done? Well, movements still benefit from the largest possible sensor plane, and we can suppose that those who use movements will continue to be a likely market for the MF manufacturers. Are there practical suggestions we can make that would help our technical and rail cameras deliver better moved images?

    For my part, I am a great fan of discrete color captures - whether from multishot or linear scanning cameras. The benefits are obvious in those images, so the cost differential from small format becomes less of an issue. As lens and tech camera makers get into electronic shutters, remote controls and the like, perhaps a direction becomes evident. It is only a small step from building an e-shutter to adding a color filter changer. I would love to have an FPS - or even a central shutter - that gave me an option for serial color acquisition. That would be worth the price of admission.

    Any other suggestions?

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Dl
    Last edited by gazwas; 27th September 2014 at 14:30.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    It seems to me that the investment and trouble of MF are becoming more difficult to justify.

    Can you please explain me what do you need to justify and to whom?

    Seriously. There is no "better" in art. Painters are not asked to justify why they want to use a particular brush or colour, even if it is expensively made by crushing small insects or cooking rare plants roots. You are using a particular camera - lens combination, because it is the tool which allows you to project reality onto a flat surface in the manner you want. No further explanation should be needed.
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    Re: Some really better bits

    Hi,

    Print larger and look closer. Use a magnifying glass.

    The difference is there, it is just that our vision is not good enough to see!

    Want a proof? Shot same image with your favorite MF gear and your favorite 135 gear. Process identically and than resize the 135 image to MF size and look at actual pixels. If you shoot high end MFD the difference will be there. Low end MFD, I have much doubt.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    It seems to me that the investment and trouble of MF are becoming more difficult to justify. I love my IQ180, but I can no longer show just anyone that the images it makes on a DF camera are obviously superior. Takes a reasonably skilled eye to see the differences and the 35mm cameras continue to improve - quickly. MF, not so much.

    So, what could be done? Well, movements still benefit from the largest possible sensor plane, and we can suppose that those who use movements will continue to be a likely market for the MF manufacturers. Are there practical suggestions we can make that would help our technical and rail cameras deliver better moved images?

    For my part, I am a great fan of discrete color captures - whether from multishot or linear scanning cameras. The benefits are obvious in those images, so the cost differential from small format becomes less of an issue. As lens and tech camera makers get into electronic shutters, remote controls and the like, perhaps a direction becomes evident. It is only a small step from building an e-shutter to adding a color filter changer. I would love to have an FPS - or even a central shutter - that gave me an option for serial color acquisition. That would be worth the price of admission.

    Any other suggestions?
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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    Print larger and look closer. Use a magnifying glass.

    The difference is there, it is just that our vision is not good enough to see!

    Best regards
    Erik
    Guys, this is not about comparing MF to 135. Of course there are differences made obvious under the right conditions. My point is that it is harder for someone without a skilled eye to see the difference, whereas at one time it was quite easy. That is not because MF is becoming worse. Rather, 135 is innovating rapidly and becoming better. I would like the MF and view camera manufacturers to get that spirit. Jerome, if it doesn't matter to you that's fine. It matters to me, enough so I would pay more for it. What can be done to make MF, once again, a clear leader in image quality?

    Hence the request for practical suggestions. My own suggestion is to use discrete color acquisition because some of the new shutters might make that easier to implement. I love multishot images, for example, but not enough to give up my Phase equipment. A filter changer that integrates with something like the Alpa FPS or new Arca or Rodenstock e-shutter lines would give me freedom to choose my gear while also yielding significantly improved image quality. Yum.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    The problem of actual photographers is that they think, after a wile, that everybody is photographer: this is wrong.

    A professional photographer does know this if he have a lot of clients. 99,5% of the clients have absolutely no clue about photography and technique and rendering. No clue at all.

    Modern photographers roam forums who are formidable tools to ignite envy and "fabled necessity".

    I can't count the number of ppl who jumped into MF thinking it will improve their seriousness and skills : This is wrong.

    A camera is a cold tool and "emotions" have not place with tool. Emotions should be used on the subject.

    Today brands and everything around brand know more about our emotions than ourself.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Some really better bits

    I have one word of advice - print, and print large. Also, compare the beauty of 4:3 aspect ratio with resolution and colour subtlty to 2:3 aspect ratios (which I admit I just don't connect with) on a 35mm system. They are different, whether "better" or not is a moot point only you can answer.

    The differences are there but ultimately only one person should care and that is you. IF you don't, then maybe going to a cheaper simple system makes sense to you.

    In my case I find myself enjoying the images from my ancient Hassleblad CFV-16 & CXi with old glass more than my other far more technically capable systems.

    If you really want to blow the socks off your clients then a technical camera, latest Rodies and an IQ2 series back can certainly produce images that technically are beautiful. However, I think that the soul of the photographer in the images is far, far more important and shows through to everybody, especially the non-photographer.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 28th September 2014 at 10:30.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Some really better bits

    it is a trip to have to wind that blad between shots, eh?
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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    I love my IQ180, but I can no longer show just anyone that the images it makes on a DF camera are obviously superior.
    I always thought that was the photographer and not the camera. I have seen a lot of great photography, but none of that can be classified as great with simply an equipment spec. sheet. If the only thing separating your work from others is simply resolving power, I would be really nervous. Maybe it is time to develop your art, rather than your technical abilities?

    I would also stop hanging with a crowd that confuses narrow technical criteria, like resolving power, with photography.
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
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    Re: Some really better bits

    perfect example of a quote that becomes a totaly different meaning, if you put it out of context. its obvious, that hes talking about the tools, and not the skills.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    mbn, irony abounds. I was talking about the tools as well.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    You know, guys, we have run off topic rather badly. For example, whether or not I am a good photographer (I'm not, and happily admire the better ones on this site) is far from relevant. My interest lies more in the technology than in the product of the technology (photographs). After all, my background is scientific imaging (which I am really good at), not art. Takes all kinds.

    I think the suppliers of MF technology have lost some of their direction and much of their passion. I was hoping for constructive suggestions from this group of very knowledgeable end users, suggestions that might help light the odd creative fire at Phase, HB, Arca, Alpa, whatever. Instead, we appear to be rehashing opinions about what makes a "real" photographer.

    Oh well. Maybe no one cares about the tool kit, in which case I fear for MF.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Some really better bits

    Well I can understand the comments like I have a 80mpx back and not getting what I want from it or hardly worth it. Let's face some real gear head facts . The backs are not the issue per say its what we stick these things on. I went through 5 backs and none of them technically where every the issue. The issue was and still is the body and lenses we are bolting them on. If your not buying the best glass and using for clarity lets say run of the mill glass well your not drawing everything from that sensor. The DSLR style bodies have a couple really nice lenses but not all of them can draw better than the tech. Cam lenses. Not all of us use or want a tech cam. I happen to like them but again they are usually shot around F11 and you lose those creative bokeh shots because most of the time focusing these backs with tech cams is a freaking crap shoot. I'm testing the Credo 50 right now and live view is really the easiest way to obtain it or tethered to a laptop . Everything else is a little harder to do. So its a little disappointing to spend 50k and still be guessing at focus. I generalize here but you get my meaning. I have the Sony say what you will but it's the best focusing I have run across with live view, focus peaking and 100 magnification. That's three tools to get you home. That's huge if we can take all three into MF both in DSLR and tech cams it makes these big purchase MF systems a much better value. That's what we need to see and we need to get rid of these shutters that exist today along with mirrors and step forward in those areas. The biggest issue is usage versus amount of R&D for a company to jump forward. It's just not there and not enough end users to support it. I just got a IPhone 6 and honestly anyone buying a point and shoot right now pretty crazy. As nice as these devices are it's killed the industry and it's killing the true ART of photography as we know it. This comment coms from both a business prospective as a working Pro and from the Artist within. These devices are just hurting the Art Of Photography at the higher levels . Agree or not , we as photographers that are very involved in the industry and photography are becoming extinct.

    Frankly it's depressing as hell after 40 years of this it's getting harder to wake up to it , we are being downgraded by iPhones but worse by iPhone mentality.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Some really better bits

    Take a look at Megavision. They do automated filter wheels.

    Kumar

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well I can understand the comments like I have a 80mpx back and not getting what I want from it or hardly worth it. Let's face some real gear head facts . The backs are not the issue per say its what we stick these things on. I went through 5 backs and none of them technically where every the issue. The issue was and still is the body and lenses we are bolting them on. If your not buying the best glass and using for clarity lets say run of the mill glass well your not drawing everything from that sensor. The DSLR style bodies have a couple really nice lenses but not all of them can draw better than the tech. Cam lenses. Not all of us use or want a tech cam. I happen to like them but again they are usually shot around F11 and you lose those creative bokeh shots because most of the time focusing these backs with tech cams is a freaking crap shoot. I'm testing the Credo 50 right now and live view is really the easiest way to obtain it or tethered to a laptop . Everything else is a little harder to do. So its a little disappointing to spend 50k and still be guessing at focus. I generalize here but you get my meaning. I have the Sony say what you will but it's the best focusing I have run across with live view, focus peaking and 100 magnification. That's three tools to get you home. That's huge if we can take all three into MF both in DSLR and tech cams it makes these big purchase MF systems a much better value. That's what we need to see and we need to get rid of these shutters that exist today along with mirrors and step forward in those areas. The biggest issue is usage versus amount of R&D for a company to jump forward. It's just not there and not enough end users to support it. I just got a IPhone 6 and honestly anyone buying a point and shoot right now pretty crazy. As nice as these devices are it's killed the industry and it's killing the true ART of photography as we know it. This comment coms from both a business prospective as a working Pro and from the Artist within. These devices are just hurting the Art Of Photography at the higher levels . Agree or not , we as photographers that are very involved in the industry and photography are becoming extinct.

    Frankly it's depressing as hell after 40 years of this it's getting harder to wake up to it , we are being downgraded by iPhones but worse by iPhone mentality.
    Guy, you bring up a great point.

    There is no doubt that those devices, like the iPhone have totally changed the perception of what a photograph is, as no one anymore prints anything. They shoot it, post it, and forget it. Most of those folks don't even back up the iPhone, and face losing years of images. You bring up a good point as to why the advances are slower in coming to MF. Much smaller market to start with and with such a high point of entry, future advances may be harder to justify.

    The average person takes for granted, that as much time or more goes into creating a true digital photograph/print. To them, all we are doing is plugging that phone/P&S into the printer, and hitting "print".

    As with most things, the paradigm will shift back, but not for a while.

    Paul

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Now not to say that buying a MF is not worth it, to some its a tool that one wants or must have. Quality of file is the key and I'm going to talk about this in my review of the Credo 50 because I feel it extremely important and put all those mine is better than yours debates to rest. I'll save that for the review.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    Frankly it's depressing as hell after 40 years of this it's getting harder to wake up to it , we are being downgraded by iPhones but worse by iPhone mentality.
    This fact is getting increasingly depressing for each new "do-it-all-camera-phone" that is being released. As a graphic designer and photographer, I'm right now working on a slide show for a client which is supposed to be shown to literally hundreds of thousands of people. Through the years, I have reminded them to secure quality photos for later use, like on the occasion I'm making the slideshow for. What do I get? More than 50% camera phone snapshots, some even from major events that made nationwide headlines.

    The answer I get is "Yes but we thought...".

    I'm writing a letter to all my major clients now, offering them an arrangement where I suggest that I participate at all their major events, product launches etc. for a modest fee. If the images are used by them later, they will be charged in full. For the current job, I'm charging extra for damage to my professional reputation. No, I'm not joking.

    Sorry for being a bit off topic
    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Some really better bits

    Hi Guy,

    Nice to hear that you find live view important for focusing. I always felt it was a great advantage. But nice to hear it from a seasoned pro, who has been there and done that.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well I can understand the comments like I have a 80mpx back and not getting what I want from it or hardly worth it. Let's face some real gear head facts . The backs are not the issue per say its what we stick these things on. I went through 5 backs and none of them technically where every the issue. The issue was and still is the body and lenses we are bolting them on. If your not buying the best glass and using for clarity lets say run of the mill glass well your not drawing everything from that sensor. The DSLR style bodies have a couple really nice lenses but not all of them can draw better than the tech. Cam lenses. Not all of us use or want a tech cam. I happen to like them but again they are usually shot around F11 and you lose those creative bokeh shots because most of the time focusing these backs with tech cams is a freaking crap shoot. I'm testing the Credo 50 right now and live view is really the easiest way to obtain it or tethered to a laptop . Everything else is a little harder to do. So its a little disappointing to spend 50k and still be guessing at focus. I generalize here but you get my meaning. I have the Sony say what you will but it's the best focusing I have run across with live view, focus peaking and 100 magnification. That's three tools to get you home. That's huge if we can take all three into MF both in DSLR and tech cams it makes these big purchase MF systems a much better value. That's what we need to see and we need to get rid of these shutters that exist today along with mirrors and step forward in those areas. The biggest issue is usage versus amount of R&D for a company to jump forward. It's just not there and not enough end users to support it. I just got a IPhone 6 and honestly anyone buying a point and shoot right now pretty crazy. As nice as these devices are it's killed the industry and it's killing the true ART of photography as we know it. This comment coms from both a business prospective as a working Pro and from the Artist within. These devices are just hurting the Art Of Photography at the higher levels . Agree or not , we as photographers that are very involved in the industry and photography are becoming extinct.

    Frankly it's depressing as hell after 40 years of this it's getting harder to wake up to it , we are being downgraded by iPhones but worse by iPhone mentality.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well I can understand the comments like I have a 80mpx back and not getting what I want from it or hardly worth it. Let's face some real gear head facts . The backs are not the issue per say its what we stick these things on. I went through 5 backs and none of them technically where every the issue. The issue was and still is the body and lenses we are bolting them on. If your not buying the best glass and using for clarity lets say run of the mill glass well your not drawing everything from that sensor. The DSLR style bodies have a couple really nice lenses but not all of them can draw better than the tech. Cam lenses. Not all of us use or want a tech cam. I happen to like them but again they are usually shot around F11 and you lose those creative bokeh shots because most of the time focusing these backs with tech cams is a freaking crap shoot. I'm testing the Credo 50 right now and live view is really the easiest way to obtain it or tethered to a laptop . Everything else is a little harder to do. So its a little disappointing to spend 50k and still be guessing at focus.

    I am a bit surprised by the negative comments. I use an Hasselblad H4D-50. The built-in AF system is almost always dead on and, on the occasions where it is not, it was usually my fault for not waiting long enough for it to find the correct focus position. The lenses all outresolve the sensor enough to excite moiré on fine details at reasonable apertures like f/5.6-f/8. Bokeh is pleasing on most lenses, except maybe the HC50-II full open.

    I don't think that all this is an Hasselblad exclusive, BTW. There are fashion photographers using MF cameras and they usually manage to focus on the model's eyes accurately enough. They are certainly not using tethered live view
    for doing so.

    I mean: I agree that the higher the resolution, the more critical focus becomes. But your comments seems to be a bit exagerated as to the limits of present technology. We can get reasonably sharp pictures with DLSR style bodies and MF backs...

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Thanks for the comments. The Megavision product is an interesting but dedicated system. I don't see major technical difficulties moving that sort of capability into a compact, integrated shutter / filter changer. Mind, the poor engineer tasked with doing it might disagree. Anyway, that's my particular fetish as others seem perfectly happy with the Bayer matrix.

    Live view remains the major thing. Like Guy, I really like the EVF in the A7r and would love to have that on a full size MF-class back. I suppose we are half way there with the new Sony chip cameras, and a 0 crop version is bound to arrive at some point.

    Come to think of it, if we had a 0 crop live view back that would work with a multishot color acquisition system - and mount to tech and rail cameras - now that would be really something.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    I am a bit surprised by the negative comments. I use an Hasselblad H4D-50. The built-in AF system is almost always dead on and, on the occasions where it is not, it was usually my fault for not waiting long enough for it to find the correct focus position. The lenses all outresolve the sensor enough to excite moiré on fine details at reasonable apertures like f/5.6-f/8. Bokeh is pleasing on most lenses, except maybe the HC50-II full open.

    I don't think that all this is an Hasselblad exclusive, BTW. There are fashion photographers using MF cameras and they usually manage to focus on the model's eyes accurately enough. They are certainly not using tethered live view
    for doing so.

    I mean: I agree that the higher the resolution, the more critical focus becomes. But your comments seems to be a bit exagerated as to the limits of present technology. We can get reasonably sharp pictures with DLSR style bodies and MF backs...
    Not negative at all but more limitations we are dealing with when you buy a very expensive back and your lenses can't do corners worth a damn. One does question your sanity of that purchase. Every system has limitations but sometimes those limitations start to get under your skin and work arounds are just not fun anymore. I have been through many systems and that usually is my case. I get bored with it and playing the workarounds. I love shooting a tech cam for the IQ , but its also a limiting system for more creative endeavors sometimes.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Not negative at all but more limitations we are dealing with when you buy a very expensive back and your lenses can't do corners worth a damn.
    What lenses are you talking about?

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    Re: Some really better bits

    28mm Phase/Mamiya lens for one. 35mm also
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    28mm Phase/Mamiya lens for one. 35mm also
    Then, I can't really talk about the 28mm from Hasselblad. Its corners are OK, but it only covers a reduced sensor size.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Yes it is what it is and thats the nature of Photography in a lot of systems.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Hi,

    Just as an example, the Mamiya LS 55 shots you posted looses a lot at the corners compared to the center. The 40 mm Rodenstock HR seems to be very sharp at the pixel level over the whole image.

    Now, real world images are not flat, except landscapes shot at infinity and architecture. The unsharpness in the LS55 image may be due to field curvature, which often works in our favour as foreground is often closer to camera than area of main focus.

    This is something I often see on my Distagon 40/4. Center is sharp, edges are well… you know, but corners which are close to the camera are sharp. Top part of image is often sky, and the clouds may be a bit more fuzzy. Who cares about fuzzy clouds?


    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yes it is what it is and thats the nature of Photography in a lot of systems.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    Lot's of great thoughts and info posted.

    Gotta love Guy's candor and he has a lot of experience with many different back / system combinations.

    I would like to add that in short, if you want great wide angle performance with medium format digital you are basically limited to a tech camera setup. The performance from the tech camera lenses, specially the Rodenstock HR-W's on the 60 and 80mp sensors is just stunning. If you want edge to edge sharpness at 100% look nowhere else.

    With normal to tele lenses the tech lenses will offer VERY large image circles to work with but if used normally the best SLR lenses then are quite close in performance.

    I use my IQ160 with an Arca RM3Di mostly (landscapes) but also with a Hasselblad H1 and 80mm lens (for portraits and commercial work) and really like the performance of the H1 AF for what I use it for.

    In portrait work I am mostly concerned about the look of the back/lens combination and not really edge to edge sharpness. The bokeh is specially important and overall image rendering.

    FWIW I find the live view on my IQ160 usable for my needs and the image quality, even up to iso 200 full res., just superb. Love the look and feel of the file. Also the sensor is large enough compared to full frame 35mm that it looks like what it is, a significantly larger format. Yes, its not 6x7, which I loved, but its close.

    Yes, it has limitations but every single camera / lens system has them.

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    Re: Some really better bits

    anyone compared backs yet?
    CMOS, 50mpx, Sony, live view:
    blad CV50C is $15,000 no USB3
    credo 250: $29,000
    Credo 150 $25,000 (no wi-fi, reduced warranty)

    CCD, live view is limited, USB3
    IQ 160: $39,000 no crop, 60mpx

    please comment and fill in the blanks

  29. #29
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Some really better bits

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    anyone compared backs yet?
    CMOS, 50mpx, Sony, live view:
    blad CV50C is $15,000 no USB3
    credo 250: $29,000
    Credo 150 $25,000 (no wi-fi, reduced warranty)

    CCD, live view is limited, USB3
    IQ 160: $39,000 no crop, 60mpx

    please comment and fill in the blanks

    Jim, I modified your list a bit to reflect the actual list price and proper names, etc, with a few additional details.

    Hasselblad CV50-C is $15,500, 1 Year Warranty, no USB3, Live View pending, Wifi pending (+ $1,000 USD)
    Phase One IQ250: $35,990, 5 Year Warranty, USB 3, Wifi, Live View
    Phase One IQ150: $29,990, 1 Year Warranty, USB 3, Wifi, Live View
    Credo 50 $26,990, 1 Year Warranty, USB 3, Live View

    CCD:
    IQ 160: $30,990 no crop, 60mpx, 1 Year Warranty, USB 3, Limited Live View


    I feel the image quality out of all these products - and you could toss in the Pentax as well - is going to be similar (I've shot them all). There may be some small differences, and for the very discerning, perhaps those preferences may be a factor. But the ultimate determining factor is going to be the size of your wallet, and the willingness with which you pull out the contents to trade for what you want.

    Each of these products has something to offer, but the price of admission will have to be factored in on a subjective basis.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller

  30. #30
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Some really better bits

    Hi Steve,

    What about LCD image quality on the CV50-C? A good LCD is important for live view. I know that Phase One and Leaf have great LCDs.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Jim, I modified your list a bit to reflect the actual list price and proper names, etc, with a few additional details.

    Hasselblad CV50-C is $15,500, 1 Year Warranty, no USB3, Live View pending, Wifi pending (+ $1,000 USD)
    Phase One IQ250: $35,990, 5 Year Warranty, USB 3, Wifi, Live View
    Phase One IQ150: $29,990, 1 Year Warranty, USB 3, Wifi, Live View
    Credo 50 $26,990, 1 Year Warranty, USB 3, Live View

    CCD:
    IQ 160: $30,990 no crop, 60mpx, 1 Year Warranty, USB 3, Limited Live View


    I feel the image quality out of all these products - and you could toss in the Pentax as well - is going to be similar (I've shot them all). There may be some small differences, and for the very discerning, perhaps those preferences may be a factor. But the ultimate determining factor is going to be the size of your wallet, and the willingness with which you pull out the contents to trade for what you want.

    Each of these products has something to offer, but the price of admission will have to be factored in on a subjective basis.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration

  31. #31
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    Re: Some really better bits

    We live in a world of analytic comparisons, reviews on the web, scores, etc.
    When someone looks at pictures made with sophisticated expensive gear, he will look for the analytical differences : definition and sharpness mainly.
    But on these 2 fields, a sony a7r gives excellent results.

    When I watch at my pictures and compare sony to MF, it's not on large prints nor at pixel level, it's on a 30" nec monitor.
    And what I see in most cases :
    - very good pictures from the sony, that I got with minimum efforts
    - some pictures I love I made with the contax or the alpa, that were really worth the efforts

    On my ipad, the differences are less obvious.

    What I feel is that the first main difference is colors. For me 35mm and MFDB are not different brushes like said before, one is acrylic and the other is oil. There are fantastic paints made with both, but depth of colors with oil has a much stronger appeal to my eyes. And regarding colors, my old sinar 54lv is as fantastic as the p65.

    Second difference comes from the lenses and probably sensor size :
    - sony 55/1.8 is an amazing lens, but transitions are not as smooth as with a contax 80 or 120, and foreground bokeh is not as homonegenous with background as it is with the contax
    - I didn't make valid comparisons with the rodenstock and schneider lenses, but I haven't made a single landscape picture with the sony that come close to the ones made with the alpa

    The differences are macro, not only micro, and maybe not important to many, especially when money is considered. A friend preferred the colors of his D3x to the ones of the Sinar, I still cannot understand how but this is what it is.
    I went to a large prints picture gallery recently, cameras were indicated : canon 5d2 and one was IQ180. I was curious to see the difference ... The IQ one was so heavilly post treated with a kind of High Dynamic effect that is was actually worse that the other ones ...
    Post treatment is indeed the last key point I see : even on this site you recognize the photographer by the first look of the picture even more than by the camera he used. This is probably a way to differentiate and attract customers. But then when the style impacts colors a lot, probably the value of MF is gone.

    I had to sell my alpa for another project, but as soon as I can I will buy one again. I bought a Sony a7r for the holidays, 6 weeks after coming back, I still did not treat the pictures as I don't find the attraction I usually have developing MF pictures. I was too lazy not to bring the contax and hoped the sony was equivalent. Much better on most aspects except absolute quality : will have 100 good pictures this year instead of 10 fantastic I usually get.
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  32. #32
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    Re: Some really better bits

    "will have 100 good pictures this year instead of 10 fantastic I usually get."
    heard a guy on the radio say he was approaching the point in his life when he wouldn't have enough time left to review all the digital images he had made...
    a lesson i can understand

  33. #33
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    Re: Some really better bits

    [QUOTE=OliverM;605027]We live in a world of analytic comparisons, reviews on the web, scores, etc.
    When someone looks at pictures made with sophisticated expensive gear, he will look for the analytical differences : definition and sharpness mainly.
    But on these 2 fields, a sony a7r gives excellent results.

    QUOTE]

    Oliver, your impressions of what MF does well match my own. What about a flexible MF system offering multishot? Of course, the Blad gets you partly there now, but imagine that the ms capability uses a device integrated with an fps or electronic leaf shutter? You could put it on your Alpa! Sigh. Probably never happen.

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