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Thread: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

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    ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    what's the ultimate landscape lens ?

    I am talking about a lens which is optimized for f 8- 16

    can be a slow lens

    only consideration is landscape and seascapes will be tripod mounted 100%

    looking for sharp corner, low CA, low cyan ringing in corners ect......

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Which focal length are you looking for? Rodenstock Digaron-W 32 is of course a hot candidate among wide angles.

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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Most consider the Rodenstock the best choice for optical excellence, however, if stopping down is an important factor for you then you must know that compared to a symmetrical designed lens (Schneider) the Rodenstock should not really be stopped down further than f8 for ultimate resolution. The Schneider is brilliant at f11 and absolutely workable at f16.
    Obviously if you have the possibility for forward tilt then 1 or 2 degrees of tilt makes wonders in many landscape scenes with a HR lens and f8....
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    I prefer Schneider lenses too due to a number of reasons, but the "general concensus" at least here on GetDPI is that Rodenstock Digarons are on top, and indeed corner sharpness is better. If shifting you don't need to be at f/8 to see differences. Personally I think shooting at f/8 is a bad idea, as you get moire and/or color aliasing artifacts if the picture is too sharp for the pixel size, it's better to "soften" a little with diffraction and then sharpen in post-processing. A very sligthly less sharp image without aliasing artifacts is better image quality to me than a sharper image with aliasing.

    There's also the sensor compatibility to take into account, the Digaron wides are a little retrofocus and thus work better when shifted for the newer sensors. The disadvantage of retrofocus (except from weight and cost) is however distortion, but it's quite low and most wouldn't care for landscape (in architecture it can matter though, but can be corrected).

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Maybe the big reason for Roadies is they can handle certain backs better as far as lens falloff. But to be honest I like the look of the SK's. The Sk60 XL is one of the nicest lens I ever shot. Just outstanding and you can shift it quite a lot. Has 120mm image circle.
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    I concur with Guy on this one. I have the Rody 32mm & the Schneider 60. Both are incredible lenses but the 32mm performance starts to dip along the edges & corners if you shift 10mm from center. The Schneider 60 is a lens from the Gods. As my friend John Smith says, "be careful with the images, they're so sharp they'll cut you! :-) I routinely move the back 15mm with no performance fall off.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Any tech cam lens is at least "very good", especially if your point of comparison is a wide angle on a dSLR. There are a few however that stand out. At some point it's like arguing which million dollar super car is 3mph faster, but the very best...

    Roddy 32HR
    Schneider 60XL
    Roddy 90HR-SW
    Schneider 120ASPH

    Tech Camera Overview

    A good dealer can provide sample files and hands on experience as you make up your mind. If you're in the US we (DT) would be glad to do so.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Pick your digital back first, then the lens.

    Agree but keep what lenses in mind on what you can and cannot use as this choice can be costly
    Last edited by Guy Mancuso; 7th October 2014 at 08:47.
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    You don't hear it mentioned a lot, but the SK 43XL is my favorite on the bigger chips. I guess I just like the FoV - on the IQ140, I use the SK 35XL 90% of the time.

    --Matt
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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    Pick your digital back first, then the lens.

    Agree but keep what lenses in mind on what you can and cannot use as this choice can be costly
    It is about economics; why the moderator edit?
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by trioderob View Post
    what's the ultimate landscape lens ?

    I am talking about a lens which is optimized for f 8- 16

    can be a slow lens

    only consideration is landscape and seascapes will be tripod mounted 100%

    looking for sharp corner, low CA, low cyan ringing in corners ect......
    I have to say the Rodenstock 40mm HR-W.

    It is a very easy lens to filter. It is not to heavy or large. (unlike the larger and heavier 32HR which tests the limits of the copal 0 mounting!). It resists flare very well. VERY sharp corner to corner and almost all the way to the end of the image circle even with the 60/80 MP backs. It is my go to lens for landscapes.

    Like all HR-W lenses makes ANY SLR wide angle lens look like a toy once you look at the files. The HR-W lenses really show what is possible in lens performance. Do not look at high quality files at 100% made using those lenses if you are not going to buy them, you will cry.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    I'm with Ken_R on the 40 HR-W. It's a very easy lens to live with and even in the short time I've had mine I've found it extremely versatile and easy to use with shifts and tilts. Heck, I can dial in 1 degree or so and pretty much hyper focal the thing and get super sharp and high acuity across the frame, even with movements up to 15mm with the IQ260. It replaced all of my other wides without the bulk or expense of the 32mm.

    Crazy sharp right into the corners.

    I know that in theory the 32mm is the superior lens technically but the 40HR-W is so easy to work with.
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Rodenstock 40mm HR-W is definitely my favorite lens. Plays well with others... LCC barely needed though I take an LCC capture regularly.

    ken

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    It is about economics; why the moderator edit?
    Hit the wrong dang button, my bad. Sorry

    iPhone
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    My experience is mostly with 8x10 film.

    Ridiculously sharp: SSXL 150 - basically resolves like a good FF lens in LP/mm but with a 400 mm image circle - this translates to gigapixel resolving power. The angle of field equates to about 25 mm FF focal length on 8x10. Downside is a string of futile attempts to try to filter it in front of the lens before I found a practical solution for ND grads.

    Also ridiculously sharp: The Apo-Ronar 480 that I sold to Jack. I miss it. I want it back.

    Contrast and bokeh: Cooke XVa Triple Convertible 311/473/646 mm. Fantastic wide open (which is f/16 at 646 mm), neutral rear bokeh, amazing coating. Very sharp on 8x10 but no match for the Apo-Ronar.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    during my film age, Apo sironar S 150, 240, 300 and my super symmar XL 110 were all really really good !

    For digital back, the 60xl seems the best (i don't have it)… but i've found that the api sironar digital 55 was really good for architecture… F11, minimal distortion… and really sharp with Aptus II 7, P45+… i've heard that it was really good with P65+ also… i will test it with an credo 60 soon !

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    I use the widest lenses quite seldom. When you can shift I think one can often get away with a little bit less wide angle. My shooting style has more of intimiate "crops" than grand landscapes and then I use 90-120 and even 180mm more often than the wides.

    I have a principle to never allow quality take precedence over composition. This means that I don't care that my SK120 is a little bit sharper than the SK90, if the 90 provides the suitable field of view for the image I want to make, I use that. Of course the lowest level of quality is still very high with these lens ranges so it's not much of a compromise.

    Likewise I'm less worried about sharpness loss after shift these days than I was when I first started shooting MFD. When I need to shift a lot and the subject allows I do angle up the camera a bit so I can shift a bit less, but again I don't like the strive for sharpest possible pixels take precedence over composition.

    Having lenses with extra large image circles does provide a freedom, and I think this is the largest advantage of the new lenses SK120ASPH, SK60XL etc, moreso than providing some extra sharpness in the center.

    For my shooting style I also think it's important to match sensor with lenses, so you don't get a limitation of image circle use just because the sensor can't handle the lens fully.

    In short, when I shoot I want to think about the image not about limiting my lens choices or movements too keep within some quality measure.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Note the title of this thread..."ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film"
    The OP did not state what sensor size or film format they were going to use and some of the lenses in discussion do not cover some film formats...
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    I interpeted it as "digital or film" rather than "digital and film" :-)

    Film needs more area to compete with digital in quality, so it's tough to find a lens that serves both formats well.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Another vote for the 60xl. No no, the 40 hr. Oops no I mean the 60...

    If I had to take only one lens it would be the 60xl. But that is just because for me it is such a versatile lens. The 40 is more of the classic focal length though. As Doug and others have said, there is a kind of short list: 32hr, 40hr/43xl, 60xl, 90hrsw, 120asph. From there just pick your favorite focal length that goes with your format and vision. I add the Sk150 because I like that length on a 54x40 format.

    Film opens up a world of additional options. I would lean toward the Schneiders with film for the reasons Dan states.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    just to clear up the OP

    right now I have the D800E

    I have used a 4x 5 film camera and have some experiencing scanning film
    as I also own a pentax 6X 7 with wide angle lens.

    I understand that these cameras use a compromise lens design because there needs to be a distance from the mirror in comparison to a biogon lens.

    as talked about here:

    diglloyd: Biogon vs Distagon

    so I was wondering what it takes to get into the upper echelon of lens for doing mostly seascapes. ......?

    probably would go the film route as it cost much less - but also this thread can be a ref for me years down the road - I will print it out and put it in a drawer for later ref

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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    One lens only going tech = Schneider 60 XL. Full stop.
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    The best Lens for Landscape.....
    Is the one you have in your Photobag with you when you need it.



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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by trioderob View Post
    I understand that these cameras use a compromise lens design because there needs to be a distance from the mirror in comparison to a biogon lens.
    That statement would simply be false. In fact, a reverse telephoto or rear telecentric design can be better than a symmetrical lens simply because they can minimize the effects of rays hitting an image plane at an oblique angle. What you need to find out is the performance of a particular lens, rather than working on some abstract generalizations about lens design. For sensors, a tele-centric design is far better than a symmetrical one with corner resolution and sharpness.

    But if you are now thinking of film, then there are a whole different set of choices. I am not sure this post is worth "filing" as better lenses will always be made.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I use the widest lenses quite seldom. When you can shift I think one can often get away with a little bit less wide angle. My shooting style has more of intimiate "crops" than grand landscapes and then I use 90-120 and even 180mm more often than the wides.
    Couldn't agree more.... I don't use wides very often and if I do I actually consider my 60XL Wide! I much prefer the more intimate and slightly compressed approach of my 100 or 150.... just suites my style. This is not to mean that the wide approach isn't just as acceptable....

    Victor

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    That statement would simply be false. In fact, a reverse telephoto or rear telecentric design can be better than a symmetrical lens simply because they can minimize the effects of rays hitting an image plane at an oblique angle. What you need to find out is the performance of a particular lens, rather than working on some abstract generalizations about lens design. For sensors, a tele-centric design is far better than a symmetrical one with corner resolution and sharpness.

    But if you are now thinking of film, then there are a whole different set of choices. I am not sure this post is worth "filing" as better lenses will always be made.

    if its false than why are the Hassy SWC and Mamiya 43 considered so highly ?

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    ok looks like a complex subject but this explains it.

    one better for film the other for digital

    http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-c...s_Distagon.pdf

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    That statement would simply be false. In fact, a reverse telephoto or rear telecentric design can be better than a symmetrical lens simply because they can minimize the effects of rays hitting an image plane at an oblique angle. What you need to find out is the performance of a particular lens, rather than working on some abstract generalizations about lens design. For sensors, a tele-centric design is far better than a symmetrical one with corner resolution and sharpness.

    But if you are now thinking of film, then there are a whole different set of choices. I am not sure this post is worth "filing" as better lenses will always be made.
    That is correct. The problem is that while very high quality reverse telephoto or rear telecentric designed rectilinear wide angles can be made I think very very few (very high quality ones) are actually made or exist for Medium Format Digital SLR or Roll Film SLR use. I am talking of wider lenses than say 40-45mm on a 645 camera (equivalent) or say the equivalent of a 28mm (or wider) on a 35mm camera.

    Hasselblad/Fuji had to make some compromises with their 24 and 28mm H mount wide angles and chose to leave some of the corrections to the software. And even so, those lenses do not cover the full 645 frame. They are good performers in the end though.

    The new Leica S 24mm, 30mm and 35mm lenses are supposedly superb but I have not seen RAW files made using those lenses and just do not have enough info on them.

    The Pentax 645 25mm is an ok lens and the 35mm FA and A are just so so, good, not great.

    The same can be said of the Phase/Mamiya wide angles, the 28mm and the 35mm.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    I have to say that I've never heard any complaints about the 38/4.5 Biogon on any camera system. In my case it's the aspirational Alpa lens for use with my 44x66mm film back. For most folks it's the Hasselblad SWC.

    Other film greats are the Mamiya 43mm as mentioned earlier and in my own case it's probably the Hasselblad/Fuji 30/5.6 for the XPAN too.

    On a personal note, one of the most shockingly sharp lenses that I've ever used on film was the Schneider 47XL APO-Digitar on my Alpa. Even my film lab guys were asking me what the heck I'd been shooting with!
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    It has been my understanding that trying to use an older lens developed for film on a digital back is problematic to say the lest. While the film type lens might be great for film it might not have the required resolving power for today's modern digital back. In case you're looking for a specific "look" that can't be done in post then a film lens might suit your purposes.

    Regarding which lens is better for landscape the answer for me is simple - the one either on my camera if not in my bag. I've got 3-lenses for my WRS that are as wide as the Rodenstock 40t/s and 2-Schneiders; 72 and the 120. I'm constantly amazed at how large the IC of the 120 is. The best lens for me is the one that will help me capture what I want to convey and I've never once wished I had another lens with me. There really isn't much more to add without more information as to the task at hand.

    Just my 2’ that you can take or leave...

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by trioderob View Post
    if its false than why are the Hassy SWC and Mamiya 43 considered so highly ?
    As film cameras? Sure. And there are medium format wides that are not symmetrical that are also great--Hasselblad made quite a few for their reflex cameras.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    That is correct. The problem is that while very high quality reverse telephoto or rear telecentric designed rectilinear wide angles can be made I think very very few (very high quality ones) are actually made or exist for Medium Format Digital SLR or Roll Film SLR use. I am talking of wider lenses than say 40-45mm on a 645 camera (equivalent) or say the equivalent of a 28mm (or wider) on a 35mm camera.

    Hasselblad/Fuji had to make some compromises with their 24 and 28mm H mount wide angles and chose to leave some of the corrections to the software. And even so, those lenses do not cover the full 645 frame. They are good performers in the end though.

    The new Leica S 24mm, 30mm and 35mm lenses are supposedly superb but I have not seen RAW files made using those lenses and just do not have enough info on them.

    The Pentax 645 25mm is an ok lens and the 35mm FA and A are just so so, good, not great.

    The same can be said of the Phase/Mamiya wide angles, the 28mm and the 35mm.
    Well, I don't agree. I have seen great Hasselblad V lenses wider than a 28mm 35mm equivalent, like their 40mm. I doubt many people would agree with your assessment of the Pentax 25mm. My A 35mm is very sharp, not just so-so--and that is an old lens.

    But the same problem exists. The lens design does not mean that a particular lens is better or worse. I shoot with Schneider and Rodenstock lenses as well. Fine lenses. And you need to correct those symmetrical lenses as well--that is what an LCC is. In fact, the highest performing Rodenstock and Schnieder wides are, in fact, tele-centric. So even they recognize the benefits of those designs. And certainly Zeiss and Sigma (their Art series) are making some fine 35mm lenses today that are tele-centric.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]It has been my understanding that trying to use an older lens developed for film on a digital back is problematic to say the lest.
    That is a bit of a myth. Lots of film-era lenses will out resolve a sensor. Lots work well. But you can always make a better lens.
    Will

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    That is correct. The problem is that while very high quality reverse telephoto or rear telecentric designed rectilinear wide angles can be made I think very very few (very high quality ones) are actually made or exist for Medium Format Digital SLR or Roll Film SLR use. I am talking of wider lenses than say 40-45mm on a 645 camera (equivalent) or say the equivalent of a 28mm (or wider) on a 35mm camera.

    Hasselblad/Fuji had to make some compromises with their 24 and 28mm H mount wide angles and chose to leave some of the corrections to the software. And even so, those lenses do not cover the full 645 frame. They are good performers in the end though.

    The new Leica S 24mm, 30mm and 35mm lenses are supposedly superb but I have not seen RAW files made using those lenses and just do not have enough info on them.

    The Pentax 645 25mm is an ok lens and the 35mm FA and A are just so so, good, not great.

    The same can be said of the Phase/Mamiya wide angles, the 28mm and the 35mm.
    Ken,I have the S24,30 and 35mm ..theyre superb.. here is a DNG set shot from the 24mm if you curious..
    https://www.hightail.com/download/Ul...ZEtrUm52WnRVag

    I did have the HCD -28mm and although pretty good it had colour cast issues at the edges.. cyan in the blacks.

    Rob

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, I don't agree. I have seen great Hasselblad V lenses wider than a 28mm 35mm equivalent, like their 40mm. I doubt many people would agree with your assessment of the Pentax 25mm. My A 35mm is very sharp, not just so-so--and that is an old lens.

    But the same problem exists. The lens design does not mean that a particular lens is better or worse. I shoot with Schneider and Rodenstock lenses as well. Fine lenses. And you need to correct those symmetrical lenses as well--that is what an LCC is. In fact, the highest performing Rodenstock and Schnieder wides are, in fact, tele-centric. So even they recognize the benefits of those designs. And certainly Zeiss and Sigma (their Art series) are making some fine 35mm lenses today that are tele-centric.
    The Hasselblad 40mm (latest one) is the only one in the Hassy V line.

    The Pentax 25mm seems to suffer from sample variation (I mean all lenses do but I guess more than normal) since I have seen a range of results from different samples. None I have seen are horrible by any means so all are pretty good.

    I actually have a Pentax 645 35mm A lens. Had the 35mm FA and sold it since the A was sharper (at least the one I have) even so the Rodenstock 40mm HR-W I have completely obliterates it. Not even close not in the same galaxy.

    I agree with the Sigma and Zeiss. Great examples of exploiting the tele-centric design to get maximum performance (per dollar even in the case of the Sigmas). Can't wait for wide ange lenses in the Zeiss Otus line. Love it if they make a Otus 24mm tilt / shift. Dream lens.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    I actually have a Pentax 645 35mm A lens. Had the 35mm FA and sold it since the A was sharper (at least the one I have) even so the Rodenstock 40mm HR-W I have completely obliterates it. Not even close not in the same galaxy.
    You mean the very new $5K Rodenstock telecentric design? My point is that telecentric designs can be better than symmetrical. The fact that it is also a really new design, I would hope it is better than my old Pentax A 35mm reverse telephoto.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    I have a bunch of Rodies, they hurt my eyes. I just ordered a Petzval

    So what are we talking about here?

    Best landscape lens....

    For me, with an IQ 180;

    Wide - I have the 23/32/40HR, and the 32HR would be my choice of the 3 if I had to pick one. it as sharp or better than the other two, max movements for focal length, and most importantly, the 23HR flares terribly, and the 40HR does so too, but to a much lesser degree - the 32 HR does not. I may see the occasional sunspot, but not the garish internal flare that I see in the 23HR and sometimes in the 40HR. With the 32HR, there are less variables. If I do it right, the image is more often than not what I intended. Drawbacks are size and filtering. One other negative you may hear is that it is big and delicate. Big is correct, delicate - not so much. NB- I had the 35XL and 43XL, no comparison to the 32HR except for size.

    Mid-range - 60XL - Small, sharp (as sharp as anything out there). The huge plus for me on this lens is a huge IC with movements right to the edge. I use a CF and it is just brilliant. Negatives - I find it a little warm on the colors, and for whatever reason the sync post on the SK is always flimsy and I've always replaced them with something more robust (couple hundred bucks).

    Beyond mid - Not sure there is much to pick at here, they are all good. I do like the SK 120ASPH, mostly for it humongous 150mm IC. The Rodie 90HRSW is also very nice with a 125mm IC (I just got this lens, so need to spend some more time with it). Drawback with both lenses is either a long barrel or an extension box. The Rodie is also somewhat large.

    If I had to pick one lens for my purposes, its hands down 32HR.
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    I like shortish telephotos for picking out landscape details. And for framing interesting regions of the Milky Way and smaller constellations.

    One lens that has astounded me is the old Mamiya 120mm A macro - wide open, at infinity! Focused carefully using live view on a Canon 5DII, it is needle sharp over the entire frame of a rich starfield. I detect no coma, no astigmatism, no field curvature, no lateral CA, just very mild longitudinal CA on the brighter stars; and vignetting which is stronger than normal for a lens of this focal length, but easily corrected. It's thrilling to get astrograph-level performance from such a bargain lens (mine was $265 at KEH), but to get it from a 1:1 macro lens is really unexpected. It may not be the "best" ever lens at this focal length, but it sure delivers quality with versatility.

    Ray

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Dear all,

    On a Credo 40, which lens would you recommend for going wide for a single shot with movements? (Landscape, not architecture. Filter use is a must)

    I like the perspective of my 35mm Mamiya lens, so the Schneider 35 XL is one I have in mind, but something wider would be nice too. Out of the 28mm lenses, which do you think works nicer with my back? The Schneider or the Rodenstock?

    The Schneider 24mm is a lens that I was looking at too, but it seems like it can offer next to no movements and also, is discontinued. Any point in pursuing this lens?

    Any help is much appreciated .

    P.S. Most probably, my platform of choice would be the RM3Di.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by synn View Post
    Dear all,

    On a Credo 40, which lens would you recommend for going wide for a single shot with movements? (Landscape, not architecture. Filter use is a must)

    I like the perspective of my 35mm Mamiya lens, so the Schneider 35 XL is one I have in mind, but something wider would be nice too. Out of the 28mm lenses, which do you think works nicer with my back? The Schneider or the Rodenstock?

    The Schneider 24mm is a lens that I was looking at too, but it seems like it can offer next to no movements and also, is discontinued. Any point in pursuing this lens?

    Any help is much appreciated .

    P.S. Most probably, my platform of choice would be the RM3Di.
    the SK24 has a very small image circle so it was not good for movements anyway. With the SK28 you will get limited movements due to it's symmetric design (you get crosstalk and desaturation), if you don't shift much it will be fine anyway. In fact it might be a better choice than the Rodenstock 28 as the Rodie has only 70mm image circle which is hard-limited. There's a good Rodie vs SK 28 test on this forum.

    Rodenstock has got some criticism for their sharp hard-limits on their image circles, if you have a sky in the top of the image (common) you don't really need the utmost sharpness there. One problem with the hard limit disc is that you can get a reflection from it too which may give a visible penumbra that require some cleanup in post-processing if you have a really clear blue sky. I've noted that this phenomenom can happen also when you have center filters (which you generally have on ultra-wides) as that gives a sharper end to the image circle. A good idea is simply to have a large enough image circle so you don't need to move to the edge most of the time. The 70mm of the Digaron-S series might feel a bit tight even with the 44x33mm sensor. The Digaron-W (and SK wides) has 90mm and that is plenty for a 44x33mm sensor.

    The SK35 will be somewhat limited by crosstalk too on this sensor, but less so than the 28. If you want to find examples of real-world results you don't need to search for a Credo 40 specifically, anything with the 6um Dalsa technology will do (IQ160, IQ140, P65+, P40+, Aptus-II 8, Aptus-II 10 etc) will do, if you compare with a full-frame sensor you need to compensate for that of course and crop away a bit. As the Credo 40 is only 44x33mm you will feel less limited than you would do with a full-frame sensor as you can shift it more relative to the sensor size.

    All the Rodenstock Digarons work well with your sensor and if you want a combination that is "designed for" your sensor Digarons it is. With the SK wides and shifting it's about pushing past the design limits of the sensor and evaluate if you think the real-world results are good enough, which is a very subjective decision. You will of course always need to apply LCC, and if you happen to do high contrast post-processing work like Peter M you might run into the tiling even with the Digarons which also a known issue with this sensor type. Tech wides are simply demanding for the sensors, but the results you get is fantastic.

    "My dealer" Linhof Studio stopped selling the SK28 because of its limitations with the Dalsa 6um sensors, but there are still users that use them, Dan Lindberg on this forum use it with his Credo 60, you could possibly ask him about shooting techniques. I would guess not shifting too much is the key.

    The most impressive lens of the really wide angles is of course the Rodenstock Digaron-W 32mm. While you may need to consider some compromises when you go down to 28mm and shorter, the 32mm is the widest "no compromise" lens. Oh well, if you have the mindset of an old-school large format architecture photographer you won't like that it's retrofocus and have a little distortion and would prefer the SK35 anyway, but few worry about distortion these days and it's not exactly large.
    Last edited by torger; 17th October 2014 at 00:42.

  41. #41
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    ... but there are still users that use them, Dan Lindberg on this forum use it with his Credo 60, you could possibly ask him about shooting techniques. I would guess not shifting too much is the key.
    Zeroed the SuperDigitar 28 XL is razorsharp including edges on fullsize 60mp back. (Note that I have a perfectly calibrated lens for infinity and a perfectly shimmed placement of my back.) Virtually no visible distortion, I have never corrected for distortion and I shoot plenty of horizonlines over the ocean and architecture. Workable from f5.6-f11, at f16 diffraction kicks in.
    What I do not like and actually is my main concern many times is that it vignettes heavily. The big centrefilter does take away a slight amount of resolution (albeit negliable) but more importantly it steals two full stops and is bulky. Other than that I simply love it and have printed very large prints with excellent results across the image. Several 2 metres wide canvases that have impressed a few knowledgable people...
    When it comes to shifting, with my combination, I can shift 7-8 mm on the long side, LCC clears up problems nicely with this amount of shift. If you need more shifts then it is better to keystone the rest in post! I do not have possibility for tilt with this lens so this I cannot comment upon.
    By the way, as a bonus it is really surprisingly good at closeups and gives the option of dramatic perspectives.
    I know that there are more than one that says the lens is useless (agree fully that it is not usable on 80mp backs) but I have a couple of hundred of technically superb images on my harddrives. It still amazes me the amount of detail and incredible resolving power it has. I'm a very happy camper and do not lust for the 'other one'....

    Just to show how well it plays with my combo I took a screenshot of a raw file as it turns up in C1. Nothing done at all, no LCC applied, no vignette compensation, no nothing....
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    When you say shift 7-8 mm on the long side I guess you mean shift the sensor up or down when it's in horizontal orientanion?

    Of what I've seen it works better to shift vertical with the sensor in horizontal position than if you shift on the short side. First the sensor reaches farther out in the image circle on the short side to start with, but the sensor suppresses pixel crosstalk a lot better on horizontal than vertical orientation. So I guess you don't shift that much on the short side?

    From the test shots I've have from a Credo 40 + SK28 I'd say on short side you get a "safe zone" of about 8mm shift on the short side, which would translate to about 3mm on the Credo 60. Haven't got any test files with long side shift but it should be better just as you indicate. Still 8mm shift on a Credo 40 is quite much. The 7-8 on long side you report would mean 11-12mm on a Credo 40. That could certainly be seen as a wide enough range, and for some subjects you will be able to stretch it a bit.

    The Rodenstock 28 which is hard-limited to 70mm image circle gives you 11mm long side and 9mm short side on the Credo 40, ie about the same range but then with hard limit and risk of penumbra reflection.

    For comparison, a full 90mm image circle gives you 23mm long side and 20mm short side on the Credo 40, but the widest you can get with that movement range is the Rodenstock Digaron-W 32.

    At some point I'm getting that SK28 myself... :-)

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Great post, Dan. Thanks very much for that! I definitely have this lens in my shortlist now.

    If I am to start my tech kit with just one lens, I'd like it to be a wide and 28mm seems perfect for that. With arca now supporting canon, adding a 24/17 TS to the kit seems like a good option if I want to go wider.

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    Torger, yes, sensor in horizantal position and vertical movements.

    Synn, as always, you should try the lens yourself with your own other gear before buying such an expensive piece of glass. But there are a few out there using it and getting great results.

    Never used dropbox...but if I have done it correctly you could download a rawfile 28 XL/Credo 60 below. Its how it is saved in the back, nothing at all done to it. Here you can see the level of coloourshifts and sharpness all the way to the edge even on a full size chip. Focus around 3-4 metres @ f8.

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/045iqr2hw...JK1Z3eFCa?dl=0
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

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    Re: ultimate MF landscape lens - digital or film

    best thread ever- who started it ?

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