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Thread: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

  1. #51
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    And so at this point we plummet into justification for white collar crime to support the technical camera crack habit

    The ultimate combo - 32HRW & 90HRSW with some other filler glass until Rodenstock develop equally mind blowingly phenomenal glass to match those two.

    Slap them on your soon to be acquired Alpa with tilt adapters etc and there's nearly $20k in lenses right there

    Now you start to really understand the wrath of Dante (and it won't stop just there btw - you'll need to add a CUBE, SUV camera bag, cable release systems, Surface Pro 2/3, and so on)
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 29th November 2014 at 20:33.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    There is universal admiration for 32mm, 40mm and 90mm which really means I cant make a poor choice.

    40mm seems to be a consensus 1-lens recommendation.
    Which focal lengths do you guys tend to use the most? 40mm?

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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Jagsiva mentioned lens flare on 40mm. That is my only concern about this lens. I tend to shoot into the sun frequently and really get *issed-off if l find flares or streaks or rainbows upon returning home, since its not always easy to spot them on LCD.

    Following are some examples of what I tend to shoot. Do you think 40mm hrw would flare in such cases? Should I really just bite the bullet and go for 32mm if its much less flare prone?





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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Ken

    I have not yet read the surface pro threads or your blog post. But I am sure I will do that once I have the setup and get my feet wet a little bit.

    Thank you

    Jawad

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    All I can add is that at this level you likely won't be chopping & changing lenses much after your initial investment so get the best that you can afford. If that means a stretch to get a 32 vs 40 and forego the next longer lens for a while I'd say that's the better investment. YMMV.

    I initially had a crop sensor back and so 24XL, 35XL and 47XL lenses were great for several years until I got my IQ160 and IQ260. Changing out cost me some $$ but ultimately was a good decision. If I were starting again, I'd definitely think very carefully about your ultimate set up and start with your 'anchor' lens, whichever that might be. Is that the 32 or 40? If I could have afforded it I'd have the 32 but The 40HRW is a better lens than my abilities today period so it's all kind of moot.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Did not mean to suggest the flare was terrible, it is just "there" compared to the 32HR. You could easily shade for it. When I throw the 23HR on in the same spot, then there is real flare that is almost impossible to fix.

    I would go with focal length, IC, cost (whatever that means). IQ in the Rodie HR line ranges from A+ to A+++ .
    Last edited by jagsiva; 29th November 2014 at 22:27.
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Did not meant to suggest the flare was terrible, it is just "there" compared to the 32HR. You could easily shade for it. When I throw the 23HR on in the same spot, then there is real flare that is almost impossible to fix.

    I would go with focal length, IC, cost (whatever that means). IQ in the Rodie HR line ranges from A+ to A+++ .
    I'd say a++ to a+++ personally.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Btw, once you get set up we expect the following kinds of images!



    <need to fix images uploaded from iPhone obviously!>
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 30th November 2014 at 03:46.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Btw, we can't compete with Gerald as he raised the bar to 11!!!

    And if you're curious that's the IQ260 plus Alpa STC & 34mmm tilt adapter and 90mm HR
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Btw, we can't compete with Gerald as he raised the bar to 11!!!

    And if you're curious that's the IQ260 plus Alpa STC & 34mmm tilt adapter and 90mm HR
    Cool setup Graham.
    I'm envious

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamgolf View Post
    Cool setup Graham.
    I'm envious
    Get the wide first and the rest will fall into place.

    But I guarantee that you'll end up with either a CUBE or D4 head
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Graham, where did you get those small pouches that are lying on your F-Stop?

    Peter
    Last edited by Pemihan; 30th November 2014 at 02:42.
    Peter
    My website

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    I too have the 40HR and can second the praise..!
    Also have the SK 60XL and SK 120 Aspheric which are both phenomenal lenses with huge IC.
    All three in T/S mount (Cambo) and the 120 as SB.

    Peter
    Last edited by Pemihan; 30th November 2014 at 03:10.
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    Graham, here did you get those small pouches that are lying on your F-Stop?

    Peter
    Peter,

    ThinkTank Photo Cable Management 10 & 20 pouches - I use them for all my cables, batteries etc.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Peter,

    ThinkTank Photo Cable Management 10 & 20 pouches - I use them for all my cables, batteries etc.
    Thanks Graham...
    Sorry for the hijack jamgolf..
    Peter
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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    I want to play in the What Lenses Sandbox too!

    Graham's recommendation to choose the wide and build up from there is spot on. I have the 40hr, 60xl, 90hr and 150xl. I also have the 70hr and 100hr, but rarely use them since the 60 and 90 showed up somehow at my dealer. They claimed I ordered them, but I don't remember that at all.

    If you go with the 32 I would think about the 60xl as the gap between 32 and 90. Comparing my copies of the 70hr vs 60xl, the 70 is ever so slightly better on center, but the 60 is more consistent across its bigger image circle. It would fill the gap better down to the 32. That is assuming you go with the STC and use back shift to do panos.

    Dave

    PS: the 60xl also makes a great one-lens kit since its image circle is so big and good.
    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

    davechewphotography.com
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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Careful judging size from Graham's pictures. That tripod would make any gear look small and compact!

    My 2 cents: I seem immune to Alpa lust. I picked up and handled all three systems and was most comfortable with Cambo. The equipment has never failed me. It's only limited by my own unwillingness to schlep it outside. But to reiterate, the glass is what matters. I made the "rational" decision to go crop sensor and 35XL. It saved a LOT of money. Savings happens once, though, and regret is eternal (or at least until the next upgrade...). Get what you want!

    Best,

    Matt (who may have an unrefusable offer on a Leica S2 ... uh oh...)
    Last edited by MGrayson; 30th November 2014 at 16:50.
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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Btw, once you get set up we expect the following kinds of images!



    <need to fix images uploaded from iPhone obviously!>
    Graham

    I thought your upside down images were intentionally placed like that and that is why I liked your posting . Don't tell me that it was a fault .
    Regards . JŁrgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Jamgolf

    From my experience, I if you shoot the 40 HR-W directly. Towards the sun like on your examples it will flare and the flare is very destructive. Multi levels of color bars.

    You can always place a finger over the sun on one frame but no hood that I am aware will keep the flare out.

    The 40 Rod flare is similar to how the Nikon 14-24 flares if you are familiar with that.

    The 40 also will ghost flare from indirect light but a hood will help a lot here.

    I can't speak for the 32 and flare but as it's similar in design I would assume flare is still a possible issue shooting directly into the sun. But what flare you get most likely will be similar to the 40mm.

    You are also correct that catching such flare us sometime hard on the camera LCD. I would consider trying tethered shooting, see Ken Doo's blog for a great write up.

    The Schneider 43XL or 35XL will do a better job when shooting directly at the sun. I have taken many straight on shots with both and the flare is not the same or anywhere as destructive.

    Paul
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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    The STC would be my choice for a one body system. Combines compactness, handholdability (!) and flexibility. I do love my Max though for further possibilities, for instance it happens quite often that I need fall and a two image horizontal stitch at the same time for my interiors. The SWA I use both un urban settings as well as landscapes when I do not need stitching. Together with the SK 35 XL I can handhold this at 1/60 with consistant results.
    The TC I also use frequently for a minimalistic, light and one lens (or two) setup when hiking.
    So none of those classic bodies collect dust!
    But again, I would be able to do almost everything with just the STC....

    For lenschoice I agree starting with the wide end and simply get the one you want/need. If my choice was a hr40+hr70 or just the hr32 and you really wanted the 32....then I would go 32 and use that one lens for 6 months or 12 months or whatever it takes to get a second. The simple reason is that buying this level of lenses means you can use them for decades while backs will be bought and upgraded several times...

    Best of luck on your journey with the finest camera equipment on earth
    Alpa FPS ē MAX ē TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 ē Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    Graham, where did you get those small pouches that are lying on your F-Stop?

    Peter
    That's not thread hijacking, Peter. That's just simply how Dante works in this forum. Thankfully Graham didn't show the image of him with the back of his Land Rover open...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Savings happens once, though and regret is eternal (or at least until the next upgrade...). Get what you want!

    Best,

    Matt
    Tongue in cheek could be a new Dante mantra, but is actually very good advice. It's a lot more costly to juggle around a technical camera system to finally get what you should have (and knew you should have) purchased in the first place.

    ken

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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    the glass is what matters.

    Savings happens once, though and regret is eternal
    Matt:

    I think that is "it". I totally agree. I have always purchased the best glass at the expense of the best camera/body and that has served me well, both in terms of image quality as well as in terms of resale value. I think I ought to stick to this formula.

    Thank you
    -Jawad

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    My choice was the sk43 and sk 120 no flare nice and compact and excellent image circle and quality no flare
    Filled in the gap with the Rodie 70 a bit bulkier also no flare
    All recommended to me my CI at the time and all t/s and used with a iq160
    As jack said, if you are going tech, go tech
    The wider rodies are huge one user has reported lens damage because he didn't pack it properly, I think he left it attached to the body
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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Jamgolf

    From my experience, I if you shoot the 40 HR-W directly. Towards the sun like on your examples it will flare and the flare is very destructive. Multi levels of color bars.

    You can always place a finger over the sun on one frame but no hood that I am aware will keep the flare out.

    The 40 Rod flare is similar to how the Nikon 14-24 flares if you are familiar with that.

    The 40 also will ghost flare from indirect light but a hood will help a lot here.

    I can't speak for the 32 and flare but as it's similar in design I would assume flare is still a possible issue shooting directly into the sun. But what flare you get most likely will be similar to the 40mm.

    You are also correct that catching such flare us sometime hard on the camera LCD. I would consider trying tethered shooting, see Ken Doo's blog for a great write up.

    The Schneider 43XL or 35XL will do a better job when shooting directly at the sun. I have taken many straight on shots with both and the flare is not the same or anywhere as destructive.

    Paul
    Paul

    Thanks for addressing my concern regarding lens flare. I have tried to look for examples of 40mm and 32mm that might exhibit such flare. On page 3 of the tech camera images thread, post #131 and #132 show that to some degree. Guy's shot with 32mm is clean and Jack's shot with 40mm has flare/rainbow. I don't know if Guy did much post processing to eliminate any flare, but it does not look like it.

    Thanks also for pointing out SK 43XL and 35XL and their ability to avoid flare. I will add these to my consideration.

    Cheers!
    -Jawad

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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    The STC would be my choice for a one body system. Combines compactness, handholdability (!) and flexibility. I do love my Max though for further possibilities, for instance it happens quite often that I need fall and a two image horizontal stitch at the same time for my interiors. The SWA I use both un urban settings as well as landscapes when I do not need stitching. Together with the SK 35 XL I can handhold this at 1/60 with consistant results.
    The TC I also use frequently for a minimalistic, light and one lens (or two) setup when hiking.
    So none of those classic bodies collect dust!
    But again, I would be able to do almost everything with just the STC....

    For lenschoice I agree starting with the wide end and simply get the one you want/need. If my choice was a hr40+hr70 or just the hr32 and you really wanted the 32....then I would go 32 and use that one lens for 6 months or 12 months or whatever it takes to get a second. The simple reason is that buying this level of lenses means you can use them for decades while backs will be bought and upgraded several times...

    Best of luck on your journey with the finest camera equipment on earth

    Dan

    Thanks for your sharing your opinions. Much appreciated.
    I think your thoughts on STC reinforce what others have said.
    If I get an Alpa it will be an STC.

    You are right in sensing that I really want 32mm and it might be best to just bite the bullet and go for it, as lenses can be used for years while back/bodies become obsolete much more frequently.

    Thank you
    -Jawad
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    While the 32HR may be slightly superior to the 40, you should also take your own preferences into account when it comes to choosing a focal length. If you're more of a wide angle guy then get the 32 indeed, otherwise the 40 may suit you better (normal wide, 27mm 24x36 equivalent on the long side).

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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Frederic View Post
    While the 32HR may be slightly superior to the 40, you should also take your own preferences into account when it comes to choosing a focal length. If you're more of a wide angle guy then get the 32 indeed, otherwise the 40 may suit you better (normal wide, 27mm 24x36 equivalent on the long side).
    Frederic

    Thats a good point. I am actually a wide angle kind of guy. The three images I posted are taken with Zf.2 Zeiss 21mm Distagon - my all-time second-favorite lens. 32mm HR will have a similar FOV.

    -Jawad

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamgolf View Post
    Paul

    Thanks for addressing my concern regarding lens flare. I have tried to look for examples of 40mm and 32mm that might exhibit such flare. On page 3 of the tech camera images thread, post #131 and #132 show that to some degree. Guy's shot with 32mm is clean and Jack's shot with 40mm has flare/rainbow. I don't know if Guy did much post processing to eliminate any flare, but it does not look like it.

    Thanks also for pointing out SK 43XL and 35XL and their ability to avoid flare. I will add these to my consideration.

    Cheers!
    -Jawad
    Okay I had to check which image. Nothing in post for the flare that I can remember . It maybe due to more smoke compared to Jacks shot. Which would diffuse it more.


    Quick shot from this morning in Yosemite. Shot with Cambo and Rodie 32mm with some fall. This is residual smoke from a fire that has been lingering for a about a week.


    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    The 32 is a nice lens. I opted for the Roadie 28 in the end . This was a lens I was using from the folks at CI. The 32 is a truck though.

    Honestly they are all very good just a matter of 1st what works with your back. 2nd the look you are after and 3rd is they are not budget friendly so pick wisely.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The 32 is a nice lens. I opted for the Roadie 28 in the end . This was a lens I was using from the folks at CI. The 32 is a truck though.

    Honestly they are all very good just a matter of 1st what works with your back. 2nd the look you are after and 3rd is they are not budget friendly so pick wisely.
    Thanks for your comments and advice Guy - much appreciated.

    I am relying on forum's collective wisdom and experience to guide me "pick wisely" - I am floored by the good will and honest advice and feedback here.
    This is an awesome forum. Truely.

    -Jawad

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    A few more thoughts on the 32 HR-W. I have considered this lens since early 2012, but each time I have come close to buying one, I have passed. No doubt optically it's one excellent lens, but here are my issues that always come back.

    1. Cost, net to me 8.5 to 9K with the CF. I would want the CF and it's 1K alone. For the same price you are looking at a 40mm Rod and 60XL Schneider or very close.

    2. The CF goes from 86mm to 105mm. At 105mm, you will not find very many slim filters even a CL-PL. I use both ND and CL-PL in my workflow in and around water. You can mount 1 86mm to the front of the lens, but 2 stacked will vignette.

    3. Hood use, I like the Lee wide angle hood, used with the Lee wide angle rings, sadly Lee does not make a 86mm wide angle only standard ring. The 86mm standard ring on the front of the 32mm will instantly vignette a pure circle. So a hood solution is much more unique and dedicated to just that lens.

    4. Weight, Guy already mentioned this. It's heavy. It's also delicate with a Copol 0 shutter as so much mass is in front of the shutter. There have been several issues where the lens came out of alignment with the shutter over time. Also, Rodenstock mentions that they don't recommend carrying the lens mounted to camera on a tripod when moving, as just in the process of setting the rig down, it's possible to damage the lens. (this is on their website).

    5. The disc that Rodenstock places inside the lens (to show you the edge of the image circle) will cause a hard vignette at around 16 to 17mm of shift. This is a total waste of lens as this lens would easily make a 20mm shift on a full frame sensor. You can still shift to 20mm, but you will cropping a good bit of the top and bottom due to the disc. BTW, this true with all Rodenstock lenses that I am aware of, HR, HR-W and HR-SW. You have a great 90mm image circle on the 32, but just can't take full advantage of it on a full frame sensor.

    I have been able to shoot with the 32mm in an Arca mount 2 times over the years, and totally love the results. I did an epic 8 hour drive to demo a used one, but choose not to make the purchase. I have tried to figure out a solution for filters and or a hood or both, but never have found one or come across one. Both times the lens did not have the CF and on full 15mm shift, there was a good bit on noise, the center frame was fine. Just means you need to bracket possibly on a shift as you are using a CCD back.

    One other thought, as you will be on a 60MP, the 35 XL is another solution. It's just the opposite to the 32mm. I know it mounts to Cambo, not sure on how it mounts to Alpa and if the mount allows for shifting. You will be able to get around 8mm of shift with the 35XL on a 60MP full frame back. You will need the CF for all shots and that will take 2.5 stops of light away. Where as on the 32mm on center, you should easily be able to shoot with no CF.

    Paul
    Paul Caldwell
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    www.photosofarkansas.com
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  32. #82
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    The 35XL will go to 8mm or so on an Alpa mount with a 60mp sensor. It is essential to use the center filter with it though and the downside of that lens on a 60mp back is that you will start to get both vignette and colour casts as you shift. Whilst these correct pretty well, I did tend to notice that there was some saturation loss in the LCC process. It's not horrible at all but isn't ideal. This was part of my reasoning to go to the 40HRW which I can shift up to 15, even 18mm with the IQ260 and still be usable without the dreaded hard ring coming in to play. The other consideration is that there is no tilt option with the 35XL on an Alpa mount as the lens mounts so close to the sensor.

    If you don't need extreme shifts or tilts, the 35XL is a nice lens and especially with a cropped sensor. The Rodenstocks do tend to surpass its capabilities but not without significant extra cost.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Paul

    Those are some really important and a valueable points you've raised. Thank you !
    Since I have not actually seen a 32mm, perhaps I am not grasping the magnitude of its size and weight and combined effect.

    The CF issue is also something that I did not really contemplate. I have that requirement currently with my Horseman 617 and its 72mm and 90mm Schneider lenses. Giving up a couple of stops is not fun. This I should have considered in regards to 32mm, but really did not think about it. Thanks for pointing it out.

    Finding 105mm filters is no fun. I dealt with similar issues on a Zeiss/Hasselblad 40mm CFE IF. It was hard/expensive to find good filters.

    All very good points. I thank you for bringing these up. They must be considered.

    So 32mm might be optically superior in an ideal world, but is certainly not superior in practicality.

    -Jawad

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Graham

    One of my main criteria is ability to tilt and if 35XL is not able to do that then I have to rule it out, unfortunately.

    Thanks for the suggestion. That 40mm starting to look good again

    -Jawad

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamgolf View Post
    Thanks for your comments and advice Guy - much appreciated.

    I am relying on forum's collective wisdom and experience to guide me "pick wisely" - I am floored by the good will and honest advice and feedback here.
    This is an awesome forum. Truely.

    -Jawad
    Well that's the GetDPI way and your hearing from some of our great members here. Not sure anyone mentioned this but try and decide your final lens count as this gaps differently for a 3 or 4 lens kit. I went in the end with 3 , 28,60,90 but you will see some folks go 23,40,70,120 or put the the 32 in place of the 40.

    The 40 is pretty much a standard focal length too regardless of size of sensor. If I had to guess I would say out of 3 than 2 would have the 40 and 1 would have the 32.

    Really depends on your shooting subject too.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamgolf View Post
    I agree Don - there is not much of point in shooting a tech camera handheld.
    I am certainly not planning to make a habbit of using it handheld.

    Its just somewhat of an option. I've seen with Dan Lindberg's work that clearly demonstrates it can be done. So just keeping a possibility open.

    Otherwise I am in agreement with your sentiment. A DF or M9.
    Wow, I shoot my TC and FPS hand held all the time.
    A tripod is simply not possible for what I do.

    Just to point out, whats's good for one persons needs is not the same for others.
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    The first lens I bought with the WRS was a 35XL which I continued to use with a P45+, P65 and later a IQ160. I liked the lens however I knew at some point I'd upgrade to a IQ180 (which is coming later this week) and knew the 35 just wasn't suited so switched over last year to the 40HR feeling the loss of focal length not that huge a deal and besides if I wanted/needed wider I always had the movements of either the lens or the WRS. It's been reported that the 40HR is very forgiving and has since turned into my most used lens. The 32 while looking sexy has a little too much baggage with it for me so I'll be sticking with the 40. Just my 2cents...

    don
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Remember you can stitch with an STC, so that 40mm lens (or 60mm) will easily become the wider lens you maybe wanted. 2 lenses for the price of 1!

    You say you don't stitch, but I bet you do when you get the lens and gear - its so easy, and nearly doubles your file size. Flip the back vertically and do a left + right, et voila! Just remember to shoot the LCC's.
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Some of my favorite tech cam captures were not only hand held, they were not in the least sharp. I still love their rendering:
    IQ140/35XL 1/8 second


    And with Sensor+, because it was dark out... Yes, an A7s would have been better. (The bride and groom are looking at the polaroids he took with his Graflex!)


    --Matt
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Jawad,

    I got a note from CI a couple of days ago with open box specials on an RM3Di and Rodie 40HR!!!!

    Prices looked pretty great, if you're leaning the Arca way, you may want to give Dave a call.
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Jawad,

    I got a note from CI a couple of days ago with open box specials on an RM3Di and Rodie 40HR!!!!

    Prices looked pretty great, if you're leaning the Arca way, you may want to give Dave a call.
    Oh that's great.
    Thanks for letting me know!

  42. #92
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    I know the OP was asking mostly about the choice of tech camera, but seems the discussion has evolved to lens choices as well. As one who tried tech with an Alpa, gave up and went back to the DF, and now fully committed and happy with tech, my lens line up has evolved and finally Iím pretty content.

    I went with arca this time, and do like the focusing system of the arca, especially when doing focus stacking, as well as the built in tilt which I do use when possible. I also like the amount of built in shift and use that frequently when stitching.

    But the reason Iím happier has little to do with the camera, and is more about overcoming the concept of focusing, which is very different with tech than what Iíve used for the last 30 years. Iím now comfortable with hyperfocal distances which I measure myself and create my own charts, and also very comfortable with LiveView focusing which I do using a variable ND filter and rarely have problems getting sharp focus relatively quickly.

    iíve evolved with a few lens choices first on the Alpa with mostly schneider glass which was challenging. I use an IQ180, so this time Iíve stayed with mostly Rodenstock glass.

    I tend to stitch nearly everything. I started with the 40, 70 and 150 rodenstock. I added the 23 for times I couldnít stitch but decided it was too wide so I sold it and bought the 28mm with center filter which I like and performs very well, especially compared to the 28mm Phase on the DF. The 40 and 70 I often do long panos rotating the camera, but also do stitches with shift. I really like what I get from the 40, very sharp, not too bad Lens cast (often images without LCC correction look just fine), 70 is really good as well and has even less lens cast. Which lens I use is determined by vertical coverage - I rarely do a 2 row rotating stitch. The 150 was for more reach and also mainly for stitched panoramas. itís definitely the weak lens in the line up, canít shoot past f/11, and even that shows some issues with diffraction.

    I felt I had some holes, too often I had to crop the 70mm tighter when doing a pano, and there was just too big a jump from 70 to 150. So I just added the 90 HRW and I think it will be my most used lens when I can shift/stitch as it is very sharp and I can shift the full amount of the camera and stay with within the image circle, with very little issues with lens cast (12/12mm shift, 20/30mm rise and fall - not quite sure about the 30 yet as I just tested it, but looks like it will work). Very sweet. I just sold the 150 rodenstock and am replacing it with the 120 schneider (I think it just shipped), and also added the 180 rodenstock for more reach. This will almost always be used stitched.

    So current lens setup is 28/40/70/90 Rodenstock, 120 schneider, and 180 Rodenstock. I donít carry all the glass all the time when hiking, (for the subway hike I only had the 28 and the 40), unless I have my sherpa son-in-law with me.


    40mm 2 shot stitch, I didnít have time to do this right so I just rotated the camera which was horizontal a little to get the composition. There was some flare on this I needed to fix, but also had a 3 stop GND which contributed to that


    70mm, 9 shot stitch (rotated), back was vertical. No flare issues.


    40mm, back is horizontal, 2 shot stitch with full shift (12mm left, 12 mm right)


    Rodenstock 40mm, 9 shot focus stack
    wayne
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  43. #93
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Beautiful "samples" Wayne.
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Rodenstock HR 32 and hood - is not a problem.
    Lee have a doughnut (or donut if new-worlders prefer) 90-100 mm which grips the outside of the lens firmly. Works well with Lee Wide hood system and screw clamp.
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    I actually have some different thoughts.

    a) The CMOS technology will certainly replace the CCD sooner or later (I smell sooner, as Phase One has cancelled their Investment Protection Plan in Sep 2014).

    b) The only current MFDB CMOS is the Sony sensor in 44 x 33mm in size, which is a crop sensor.

    c) I cannot resist the advantages of the Sony CMOS sensor so I decided to give up my IQ260 and go crop with the CMOS. It has been a difficult call for me but I like shooting directly against the sun.

    c1) The Sony CMOS sensor is just a lot better in terms of shadow recoverability, especially for multi-minute long exposure shots.

    c2) You don't need the dark frame NR on that either.

    c3) You also get 21st century Live View.

    c4) You can also avoid the tiling issues of the larger CCD sensors (e.g. IQ260, IQ280).

    c5) The D810 could handle the high contrast scenes a lot better even with inferior glass compared against an IQ260/IQ280 when you do pixel peeping into the shadows, while the shadows of the larger CCD sensors are filled with noise. The 44 x 33mm Sony CMOS sensor is currently the only option to match up against the D810 in terms of high dynamic range shots. If you bracket, it is virtually impossible to align two shots perfectly with subpixel dithering even if you use the most stable tripod and head - you cock the Copal 0 shutter with vibration between shots and you lose lens sharpness when you blend bracketing shots with luminosity masks in the transition areas. This may not be an issue if you do conventional landscape shots but when you encounter tree leaves in the wind, or when you do cityscape shots it would take you extreme effort to make things right for pixel peeping.

    d) I understand that people like larger sensors - I do as well. You may look down upon the IQ250 now, but eventually there could be a fullframe 645 CMOS sensor in the future. At a certain point you would be forced to switch to a CMOS sensor instead of a CCD sensor. Therefore you will need to consider lens compatibility. This will affect the residual value of your lenses and also your upgrade path. You can not just walk away with lenses and hope that the lenses will all last decades (technically). The lenses may be fully functional over years but they will become obsolete when the sensor technology advances. Just look into the Schneider XL wide angle lenses, and also the Zeiss ZM 15mm f2.8 Leica-M mount lens. These are not compatible with the Sony CMOS sensors due to the microlens design and depth of lightwells! Also look into the Leica rangefinder wide angles. These perform very poorly on Sony CMOS sensors as well due to excessive field curvature and loss of MTF in the corners due to the thickness of the glass.

    e) The Digaron-W wide angles (i.e. 32HR and 40HR) are not very CMOS-friendly (e.g. IQ250). You get crosstalk issues and lose color fidelity and saturation when you shift to the extreme. For this you could refer to Doug's tests. You may not need a CMOS sensor now, but you will have a CMOS sensor in the future sooner or later, and the performance of these Digaron-W will degrade should you switch to CMOS.

    f) According to my tests the Digaron-S wide angles (e.g. 23HR, 28HR and 35HR) are more CMOS-friendly on the IQ250. Even though they have smaller image circles, the crosstalk issue is less severe and you also get room to shift on the IQ250. These Digaron-S lenses will continue to serve you well in the future if you switch to a fullframe 645 CMOS sensor, but the Digaron-W lenses may not (we don't know about that yet but if, say the IQ390, is empowered by a fullframe Sony CMOS sensor then expect similar characteristics on the current IQ250 when shifted to the extreme - you lose usable image circles!).

    g) Ever since Sony has entered the consumer sensors market they always dump their latest technology into smaller sensors first just to get started. For example, the dynamic range of the D7000 beat that of the D3X. 2 years later, the D7000 evolved into the D800 and the dynamic range of the D800 beat that of the IQ180. 2 years later the D800 evolved into the IQ250 and became the king of dynamic range. Now in 2-3 months expect Canon and Sony to launch 50 MP sensors in 35mm format. If these are evolved from the technology of the D7100 sensor or similar, then expect these to outperform the IQ250 as well, in terms of SNR. People in the MFDB club will not care about the smaller sensors, but eventually the price of the MFDB will crash. This is also something you should consider when you have not sunk your money yet. Remember that the smaller sensors will evolve faster and during a tick-tock cycle the smaller sensors may have their good days, and we are in the digital era.
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    I also itched to opt for the 32HR lens when I use an IQ260 CCD. However the main issue with it is that the center filter is too huge and there is no easy filter solution for that. If you shoot without a center filter then you get noisy corners since the CCD has noticeably less dynamic range than the CMOS sensors (even less than a Pentax K5-IIs APSC if you do long exposure shots)! Yes you may well use a CMOS digital back and overcome the vignetting without the center filter but again as mentioned above, the 32HR may not be CMOS-friendly or future proof enough. We don't know about that yet.

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
    Rodenstock HR 32 and hood - is not a problem.
    Lee have a doughnut (or donut if new-worlders prefer) 90-100 mm which grips the outside of the lens firmly. Works well with Lee Wide hood system and screw clamp.
    Nutcracker:

    Is this the Lee adapter you are referring to? Are you using the Rodenstock CF with the 32?

    This is good to know as I have this adapter to use on my 28mm with the CF, as the outer diameter is around 100mm and this adapter fits on it. I forgot you can mount the hood to the front side.

    LEE Filters 100mm Push-On Filter Holder FK100 B&H Photo Video


    Thanks
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    I actually have some different thoughts.

    a) The CMOS technology will certainly replace the CCD sooner or later (I smell sooner, as Phase One has cancelled their Investment Protection Plan in Sep 2014).

    b) The only current MFDB CMOS is the Sony sensor in 44 x 33mm in size, which is a crop sensor.

    c) I cannot resist the advantages of the Sony CMOS sensor so I decided to give up my IQ260 and go crop with the CMOS. It has been a difficult call for me but I like shooting directly against the sun.

    c1) The Sony CMOS sensor is just a lot better in terms of shadow recoverability, especially for multi-minute long exposure shots.

    c2) You don't need the dark frame NR on that either.

    c3) You also get 21st century Live View.

    c4) You can also avoid the tiling issues of the larger CCD sensors (e.g. IQ260, IQ280).

    c5) The D810 could handle the high contrast scenes a lot better even with inferior glass compared against an IQ260/IQ280 when you do pixel peeping into the shadows, while the shadows of the larger CCD sensors are filled with noise. The 44 x 33mm Sony CMOS sensor is currently the only option to match up against the D810 in terms of high dynamic range shots. If you bracket, it is virtually impossible to align two shots perfectly with subpixel dithering even if you use the most stable tripod and head - you cock the Copal 0 shutter with vibration between shots and you lose lens sharpness when you blend bracketing shots with luminosity masks in the transition areas. This may not be an issue if you do conventional landscape shots but when you encounter tree leaves in the wind, or when you do cityscape shots it would take you extreme effort to make things right for pixel peeping.

    d) I understand that people like larger sensors - I do as well. You may look down upon the IQ250 now, but eventually there could be a fullframe 645 CMOS sensor in the future. At a certain point you would be forced to switch to a CMOS sensor instead of a CCD sensor. Therefore you will need to consider lens compatibility. This will affect the residual value of your lenses and also your upgrade path. You can not just walk away with lenses and hope that the lenses will all last decades (technically). The lenses may be fully functional over years but they will become obsolete when the sensor technology advances. Just look into the Schneider XL wide angle lenses, and also the Zeiss ZM 15mm f2.8 Leica-M mount lens. These are not compatible with the Sony CMOS sensors due to the microlens design and depth of lightwells! Also look into the Leica rangefinder wide angles. These perform very poorly on Sony CMOS sensors as well due to excessive field curvature and loss of MTF in the corners due to the thickness of the glass.

    e) The Digaron-W wide angles (i.e. 32HR and 40HR) are not very CMOS-friendly (e.g. IQ250). You get crosstalk issues and lose color fidelity and saturation when you shift to the extreme. For this you could refer to Doug's tests. You may not need a CMOS sensor now, but you will have a CMOS sensor in the future sooner or later, and the performance of these Digaron-W will degrade should you switch to CMOS.

    f) According to my tests the Digaron-S wide angles (e.g. 23HR, 28HR and 35HR) are more CMOS-friendly on the IQ250. Even though they have smaller image circles, the crosstalk issue is less severe and you also get room to shift on the IQ250. These Digaron-S lenses will continue to serve you well in the future if you switch to a fullframe 645 CMOS sensor, but the Digaron-W lenses may not (we don't know about that yet but if, say the IQ390, is empowered by a fullframe Sony CMOS sensor then expect similar characteristics on the current IQ250 when shifted to the extreme - you lose usable image circles!).

    g) Ever since Sony has entered the consumer sensors market they always dump their latest technology into smaller sensors first just to get started. For example, the dynamic range of the D7000 beat that of the D3X. 2 years later, the D7000 evolved into the D800 and the dynamic range of the D800 beat that of the IQ180. 2 years later the D800 evolved into the IQ250 and became the king of dynamic range. Now in 2-3 months expect Canon and Sony to launch 50 MP sensors in 35mm format. If these are evolved from the technology of the D7100 sensor or similar, then expect these to outperform the IQ250 as well, in terms of SNR. People in the MFDB club will not care about the smaller sensors, but eventually the price of the MFDB will crash. This is also something you should consider when you have not sunk your money yet. Remember that the smaller sensors will evolve faster and during a tick-tock cycle the smaller sensors may have their good days, and we are in the digital era.

    Your tests were very much appreciated. You can only imagine how good those HR' lenses would do, if the internal disk (marking the edge of the IC) was not in there.

    The shadow recovery on the 50MP chip is amazing, I am not sure it's much better than a D810 at 32 iso, but the differences are pretty small. CCD loves light, and in great light, the CCD chip does wonderful stuff. One aspect I did not realize until I started tethering, is just how important the tethered relationship is, as you can setup C1 to push shadows in a custom workspace so when you look at your shifted shots, you can tell if you need to make exposure adjustments. Where as with a 250, it could all be done with the one shot.

    It is true that the 40mm and 32mm Rodenstock seem to have more crosstalk issues on the 250 sized sensor.

    I am hoping that when Sony/Phase One come out with the next chip and it's full frame, that Sony finds a way around this, with a newer pixel well design. Otherwise, you make an excellent point on the residual value on those two HR-W optics. I can't believe Phase would make a full frame CMOS that did not behave better on the current tech glass, but only Phase and a few outside the box know.

    For sure it seems it won't be around till 2016.

    Paul
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  49. #99
    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    Thanks for your comments Wayne. Beautiful images.
    Looks like your are putting your 40mm to really good use.

    You mentioned 'overcoming the concept of focusing' - so how did you do that? What was your approach the first time around that led to eventual sale of the technical equipment. Were you too fixated on focusing the first time? What made you decide to learn and trust the hyperfocal method?

    -Jawad

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    Re: Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

    voidshatter:

    Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful comments.

    I owned D800 for a while. It has great dynamic range so I am familiar with its tonal response. I used it with Zeiss 21mm, 35mm Distagons. With Leica-R converted to Nikon-F mount Summicron-R 50 (my all time favorite never to be sold lens), Summilux-R 35mm, APO Telyt-R 180mm and some other super high quality glass. As good as its resolution and dynamic range are, its colors are just not to my liking.

    I "loved" the colors of Leica M9. I also really liked the very similar Pentax 645D colors and beautiful image quality. I almost had to do no post processing with M9 and 645D files. Both are CCD. D800 files on the other hand I had to spend some time to get them close to my liking - and even then they did not feel really right.

    So it seems I prefer the CCD over CMOS and would not even think about a IQ250 for a second. I would rather keep my Pentax 645D with Hasselblad Zeiss 40mm CFE IF and the 250mm Superachromat.

    The other thing is that would not upgrade from a 44x33 sensor to another such sized sensor. For me part of the allure is the mystery of the large sensor and that would be my upgrade or else I would stick to my prior gear.

    While I know very little about technical cameras and the full frame digital backs. I suppose for me part of the enjoyment is the discovery and the process even if it eventually leads to moving back to a Leica M9 ( I hope not).

    Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciated.
    Its great to have options.

    Regards
    -Jawad
    Last edited by Jamgolf; 2nd December 2014 at 19:55.

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