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Thread: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

  1. #51
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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    It's my understanding that in the last years just about any new DMF back had a Dalsa sensor.
    Eduardo

    [QUOTE=Ken_R;627187]Its gonna be a sad day when all high end cameras/backs use similar Sony CMOS Sensors even if they are different sizes. Imagine if back in the day there was only one film available.

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Its gonna be a sad day when all high end cameras/backs use similar Sony CMOS Sensors even if they are different sizes. Imagine if back in the day there was only one film available.
    Well, on the other hand, back in the day every film type was available in every size, so if you really liked a kind of film, you could use it in your Leica, Hasselblad and 8x10. Some photographers I personally know used to stick to a couple of film types for pretty much everything they shot regardless of camera - just tons of boxes of the same-kind film.

    Who knows what will happen in 5 years time, CMOS could step up to full 645, or maybe a new and different sensor tech will step in altogether, like one that can capture luminance in addition to color.

  3. #53
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    The Leica Bond edition.. ;-)

    Leica have said they will be applying changes to this sensor compared to the M240 based on what they learned from that sensor so I'm optimistic and may keep my 006 for a while just in case..

    Rob
    Hi Rob, I must admit when I spoke to Tony at Photokina and he said "exactly the same architecture but different processor" the S007 was still in prototype phase, but sensor changes within 6 months of launch are pretty risky.

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Hi Rob, I must admit when I spoke to Tony at Photokina and he said "exactly the same architecture but different processor" the S007 was still in prototype phase, but sensor changes within 6 months of launch are pretty risky.
    Well, "architecture" is a pretty loose term, using computer chips as an example, Intel's Haswell architecture is utilized in everything from bargain processors powering $500 computers to monstrous $5000+ 18-core chips that can be used in pairs.

    Sony's own Exmor architecture has been in use for many years on sensors of every size and complexity from inexpensive camcorders to, supposedly, the 645Z as well.
    edit: Since the 645Z is claimed to feature better performance than the other cameras that use the same sensor, it could be said that a lot rests on aspects outside of just the sensor itself. Since the 007 features "a different processor", the difference in performance could be potentially greater than the M240 on a per-pixel level.
    Last edited by Kolor-Pikker; 23rd February 2015 at 05:30.

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Hi Rob, I must admit when I spoke to Tony at Photokina and he said "exactly the same architecture but different processor" the S007 was still in prototype phase, but sensor changes within 6 months of launch are pretty risky.
    What do you think of the M240 sensor?? I have a few test files from it and it looks pretty good to my eyes,good DR and decent high ISO,I have a test file shot at 1000iso which is quite good,decent blacks and low noise and takes a push quite well.

    I'm also really interested in the live view for shooting cityscapes at night and the new AF system in the 007,it can still improve even though the last firmware update on the 006 was a nice improvement.

    I would love to see Leica offer two resolutions in the future,the current res is great for handheld work and the 007's 3.5fps is a very useful but an 80mp sensor camera for landscape would be hard to resist (as long as it wasn't insanely expensive),at some point they'll have to boost the resolution.

    Rob

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Well, "architecture" is a pretty loose term, using computer chips as an example, Intel's Haswell architecture is utilized in everything from bargain processors powering $500 computers to monstrous $5000+ 18-core chips that can be used in pairs.

    Sony's own Exmor architecture has been in use for many years on sensors of every size and complexity from inexpensive camcorders to, supposedly, the 645Z as well.
    edit: Since the 645Z is claimed to feature better performance than the other cameras that use the same sensor, it could be said that a lot rests on aspects outside of just the sensor itself. Since the 007 features "a different processor", the difference in performance could be potentially greater than the M240 on a per-pixel level.
    I'm going to have to use the weight of my computing background here to point out that haswell and most other CPU's out there are based on a setup that is very scaleable. They can implement 2 cores or they can implement 18. They can scale the L3 cache to anywhere up to 45MB and the performance jumps are huge.

    An imaging sensor is based on a series of quantum wells with a fixed efficiency attached to an array of amplifiers and readout circuitry. That is sensor architecture. Despite still being fabricated from silicon, saying 'architecture' is a much more fixed qualifier in imaging sensors than it is in SoC (system-on-chip) design.

    I worked for Sony and I worked for Leica. I will point out that Exmor refers only to the layout of the CMOS DAC and on-chip NR. The sensitivity across the Exmor, Exmor R and Exmor RS series' varies wildly and the sensor size does as well. Dark-current noise and quantum efficiency can vary hugely through tweaking the architecture whilst still being a "Sony Exmor CMOS sensor".

    I'm quite certain Tony meant that the underlying architecture was near identical, but in order to hit 37.5MP they will have to change the pixel pitch which can have all kinds of effects. They can alter the CFA, and maybe do some processing tricks. The RAW readout can be tweaked quite significantly before giving you your 'RAW' file, so we'll wait and see.
    Last edited by thrice; 25th February 2015 at 04:16.
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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    I'm going to have to use the weight of my computing background here to point out that haswell and most other CPU's out there are based on a setup that is very scaleable. They can implement 2 cores or they can implement 18. They can scale the L3 cache to anywhere up to 45MB and the performance jumps are huge.

    With an imaging sensor which is based on a series of quantum wells with a fixed efficiency attached to an array of amplifiers and readout circuitry. That is sensor architecture. Despite still being fabricated from silicon, saying 'architecture' is a much more fixed qualifier in imaging sensors than it is in SoC (system-on-chip) design.

    I worked for Sony and I worked for Leica. I will point out that Exmor refers only to the layout of the CMOS DAC and on-chip NR. The sensitivity across the Exmor, Exmor R and Exmor RS series' varies wildly and the sensor size does as well. Dark-current noise and quantum efficiency can vary hugely through tweaking the architecture whilst still being a "Sony Exmor CMOS sensor".

    I'm quite certain Tony meant that the underlying architecture was near identical, but in order to hit 37.5MP they will have to reduce the pixel pitch which can have all kinds of effects. They can alter the CFA, and maybe do some processing tricks. The RAW readout can be tweaked quite significantly before giving you your 'RAW' file, so we'll wait and see.
    Is the pixel pitch on the S007 not the same as the M240?

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    at some point they'll have to boost the resolution.
    Rob
    Hi Rob,

    They're targeting commercial photographers working at f/8 or smaller.
    The fear is that they will be compared to a 40x54mm P1 at 80MP and the 30x45mm sensor at 80MP and be found wanting due to diffraction.

    FYI the IQ180 hits a diffraction limit at f/8.0, short of digital trickery (Sony have an algorithm they use to try and overcome diffraction) or theoretical negative refractive index materials there is no way around this. No lens will get sharper from f/8.0 to f/11 on a 5.2m pixel pitch at the pixel level within the plane of sharpness.

    The pitch on the current S is 6m, to get to 60MP which all the sales and marketing guys at Leica begged for would require 4.8m and 80MP would take 4.1m. Those are diffraction limits of f/5.6 and ~f/4.5 respectively. Unacceptable in the commercial photography and landscape world. It might amuse you to learn that the Canon 5DS is diffraction limited at f/4.0.
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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    Is the pixel pitch on the S007 not the same as the M240?
    It is 5m on the M typ240 and the S is 6m

    The well size could be EXACTLY the same to avoid a redesign but they can use gapless microlenses and the larger surface area to effectively gain a larger pixel pitch. The M has very strange and offset microlenses.
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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Hi Rob,

    They're targeting commercial photographers working at f/8 or smaller.
    The fear is that they will be compared to a 40x54mm P1 at 80MP and the 30x45mm sensor at 80MP and be found wanting due to diffraction.

    FYI the IQ180 hits a diffraction limit at f/8.0, short of digital trickery (Sony have an algorithm they use to try and overcome diffraction) or theoretical negative refractive index materials there is no way around this. No lens will get sharper from f/8.0 to f/11 on a 5.2m pixel pitch at the pixel level within the plane of sharpness.

    The pitch on the current S is 6m, to get to 60MP which all the sales and marketing guys at Leica begged for would require 4.8m and 80MP would take 4.1m. Those are diffraction limits of f/5.6 and ~f/4.5 respectively. Unacceptable in the commercial photography and landscape world. It might amuse you to learn that the Canon 5DS is diffraction limited at f/4.0.
    Very interesting..I like to print at around 34"x36" and 37.5MP is more than adequate at this size although for fabrics and other high frequency details a little extra would be nice.

    What do you think is the ideal pixel pitch?+-5um might be just right..

    Rob

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    Very interesting..I like to print at around 34"x36" and 37.5MP is more than adequate at this size although for fabrics and other high frequency details a little extra would be nice.

    What do you think is the ideal pixel pitch?+-5um might be just right..

    Rob
    5m is good for down to f/11. I wouldn't want to go much smaller for landscape. Ideal also depends on technology, who knows what they might come up with to overcome the limitations that currently exist.
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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Its gonna be a sad day when all high end cameras/backs use similar Sony CMOS Sensors even if they are different sizes. Imagine if back in the day there was only one film available.
    Dalsa has been pretty dominant in recent years, but I guess they're very much on the way out now. I too think it's sad if Sony gets the new monopoly, but more for the industry, competition etc, I'm not worried concerning the look. 10% of the look sits in the sensor, 90% in the profile. Want your own look, make your own profile and combine it with your own post-processing techniques.

    Everyone using the same raw converter with the same manufacturer defaults is a lot more equalizing concerning look than using the same sensor.

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    I hope this is not off topic but after reading through the very informative contributions of this thread my question is - Where does all this increase in DR, bits of info collected by a sensor, and the ability to lift shadows leave color rendition? Are we seeing more accurate color (with CMOS vs. CCD), more hues within a given color, and better seamless transition between the multitude of hues of a given color based on the intensity of light falling on it or the actual variation of color hue in an object?

    I hope my question in clear enough to answer - it's not quite clear to me.

    Cheers

    chk

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Any idea of the pixel pitch on the 645Z?

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by chkproductions View Post
    I hope this is not off topic but after reading through the very informative contributions of this thread my question is - Where does all this increase in DR, bits of info collected by a sensor, and the ability to lift shadows leave color rendition? Are we seeing more accurate color (with CMOS vs. CCD), more hues within a given color, and better seamless transition between the multitude of hues of a given color based on the intensity of light falling on it or the actual variation of color hue in an object?

    I hope my question in clear enough to answer - it's not quite clear to me.

    Cheers

    chk
    Essentially the sensor architecture be it CMOS or CCD has little effect on colour. What will affect colour are 3 things:

    1. The CFA (colour filter array) this determines how spectrally 'strict' the red/green/blue filtration over the pixels is. The stricter it is the better the metamerism (definition of colours and tones) - typically.

    2. The image processing by the camera before writing the 'RAW' file. Also the interpretation of the RAW file by the interpolating software.

    3. The IR filter/hot mirror. This primarily affects greens, a stronger filter means better greens and colours in general but usually at the expense of some extra light that could add an extra stop of 'sensitivity' to the sensor.
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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Any idea of the pixel pitch on the 645Z?
    5.31m so your diffraction limit is around f/8.0 but shouldn't see much softening going to f/11

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    5.31m so your diffraction limit is around f/8.0 but shouldn't see much softening going to f/11
    Sounds like the right pitch for the S sensor,f8 is very good and they seem to show diffraction after that...

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Essentially the sensor architecture be it CMOS or CCD has little effect on colour. What will affect colour are 3 things:

    1. The CFA (colour filter array) this determines how spectrally 'strict' the red/green/blue filtration over the pixels is. The stricter it is the better the metamerism (definition of colours and tones) - typically.

    2. The image processing by the camera before writing the 'RAW' file. Also the interpretation of the RAW file by the interpolating software.

    3. The IR filter/hot mirror. This primarily affects greens, a stronger filter means better greens and colours in general but usually at the expense of some extra light that could add an extra stop of 'sensitivity' to the sensor.
    thrice - thank you very much for your response and information. It does help give me a clearer idea of what effects what.

    Cheers

    chk

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Hi Rob,


    FYI the IQ180 hits a diffraction limit at f/8.0, short of digital trickery (Sony have an algorithm they use to try and overcome diffraction) or theoretical negative refractive index materials there is no way around this. No lens will get sharper from f/8.0 to f/11 on a 5.2m pixel pitch at the pixel level within the plane of sharpness.
    The dealer who sold me the IQ180 was quite sure there was no problem even at f16, in fact he suggested I could easily go to f22 for increased DOF given the 'large sensor'. This was one of the major selling points he was pointing out since obviously the DOF would be shallower on an MF sensor.

    And pardon my ignorance, but isn't diffraction also lens dependent?

    Hmm......

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    For those who are interested in the "color cast issues" in shadow push, here are the IQ250 RAW files shot against a color check passport: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fgircd45m...pLccyzmfa?dl=0






  21. #71
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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    a)
    Below shows the official sample image from Canon for the 5DS and the 17mm TS-E lens
    but now the nikon 19 PC-E is available... and D800/810 sensors (sony) are not bad at all... better than canon's in my opinion.

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    Re: Backlight landscape photography realized - say no to silhouette

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    but now the nikon 19 PC-E is available... and D800/810 sensors (sony) are not bad at all... better than canon's in my opinion.
    I'm still waiting for someone to compare the 17mm TS-E against the 19mm PC-E, which needs to be done on the same A7R-II (or whatever the same digital back)! As far as I'm aware, no adapter fully supports the 19mm PC-E yet, and one needs to use the DoF preview of a Nikon camera body and pulling out the battery to set the 19mm to a certain aperture before it can be adapted.

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