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Thread: CFV50c Images

  1. #51
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    tripod, 110, f11
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    last one from the yard today, tripod, f5.6, 110
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    ALPA Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/47 mm XL LCC
    For lens info see here.

    Finally got the weather, time and place to shoot LCC files with the SK 47mm f/5.6 as per request. This was not the place I had in mind, but I was able to squeeze it in as the sun was headed towards the horizon. Files were uploaded in Phocus, LCCs were made and applied, then off to Lightroom for minor adjustments. I did not want to play with the files and I know if I did, I would have made the WB and exposure better in the extreme shifts.



    (+) Right Horizontal Shift Increments, (-) Vertical Fall/Drop Increments

    The ALPA Max does +/- 18mm shifts, but the 18mm looks similar to the 15mm and see no reason to post it. I do not think this particular lens design is suppose to be as good as the retro designs, but the engineers can chime in on that. For my needs, post-processing cleans up the LCC well enough. Like many things in photography, we all have unique needs and for me I prefer the SK lenses mainly for size and weight and will continue to use them with the 50c.


    EDIT: The lens was clean (no filtration), set to f/11 and focused to infinity, and was wearing a rubber lens hood.
    Last edited by darr; 6th January 2015 at 21:49.
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  4. #54
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    I think the LCC looks to be within reason, nice. When you see a yellow "cigar" you're pushing it a bit too far (a different color when shifted in the other direction), and it seems like that one is just outside below the frame in the -15 LCC shot, so the LCC shots indicate that the results should be fine.

    It's nice to see how it performs with this economical symmetrical lens, as all other tests shown has been on much more expensive Rodenstock lenses.

    Here's an excellent thread showing shifts for some of those Digaron wides, including how it looks when pushed too far (yellow cigar area visible in the LCC shot), it's done on the IQ250 but as it's the same sensor LCC performance is equivalent:
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...0hr-iq250.html
    Even when pushed "too far" you can have good results, but it becomes subject dependent.

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Thank you Darlene

    This is very interesting. It seems they might be a bit more tech friendly than first thought. My Schneider wides may still be out of range but it is good to see this shifted. Both from you and from the work of void shatter as well.

    I can't afford to buy at the moment and my P45+ will be with me for a bit, but at least this shows some good options are out there.

    Now we just have to hope Phase/Leaf drop prices a bit to match and the game is on.

    Congratulations on your new back, I'm sure you will get great use from it.
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Awesome, thanks!
    From what I see on my laptop screen it seems that somewhere close to 10mm might be the limit if colour depth is important, do you think? As Anders has said above, tests indicate that the colours clean up nicely with larger movements but perhaps at the expense of saturation, etc? What are your feelings, Darr?
    I'm torn. The more frugal side of my brain tells me that this back, even at the higher price of $15.5K USD is a great option and would suit me well, going to 400ISO and especially with live view on back. The practical side of my brain tells me that I'd be better served investing in a used H4/5D-50 – as Anders has – so I have the option of using a modern SLR solution when I need it. If I go this way, I have better performance on larger movements and the extra camera platform, but only really 100ISO and must put up with the ground glass on my Techno...
    Decisions, decisions...

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Darr, thanks for posting the comparisons.

    There does seem to be a hue shift in the blue, from the 0 to 15+ shift, but it's a bit hard to tell. It would be interesting to know how easily the 15mm shift and 0 base image combined, i.e. in the sky. The clouds always help in a blend, as a pure blue becomes quite difficult to combine at times.

    I have looked many times at the Voidshatter testing, and each time I look at the 250/40mm rise fall shots, you see a lot of red shift in the blue of the sky, even at the 15mm, and by 25mm it's excessive to me. Where as the 260 seems to hold a much more true blue hue (better than my back does and I own a 260).

    Of course when shifting, the 50MP chip allows a lot more shifting +25mm, before you hit the disc that creates the hard vignette. Where as the 260 shows it much faster and in Voidshatter's testing you can see just how much the STUPID disc damages the shot. This is a problem will all the Rodenstocks.

    It's too bad the rental policy of US dealers makes it so hard to rent such a back, (250 or 150 or credo 50). At least it's never been possible for me with my current set of insurance. I would love to test one of the 50MP backs in the field.

    Paul

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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I think the LCC looks to be within reason, nice. When you see a yellow "cigar" you're pushing it a bit too far (a different color when shifted in the other direction), and it seems like that one is just outside below the frame in the -15 LCC shot, so the LCC shots indicate that the results should be fine.

    It's nice to see how it performs with this economical symmetrical lens, as all other tests shown has been on much more expensive Rodenstock lenses.

    Here's an excellent thread showing shifts for some of those Digaron wides, including how it looks when pushed too far (yellow cigar area visible in the LCC shot), it's done on the IQ250 but as it's the same sensor LCC performance is equivalent:
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...0hr-iq250.html
    Even when pushed "too far" you can have good results, but it becomes subject dependent.
    Always enjoy your commentary and viewpoints Anders, thank you!

    Kind regards,
    Darr
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
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  9. #59
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Awesome, thanks!
    From what I see on my laptop screen it seems that somewhere close to 10mm might be the limit if colour depth is important, do you think?
    I think a 10mm shift would be my limit if the files required purist scrutiny, which is not how I shoot these days.

    As Anders has said above, tests indicate that the colours clean up nicely with larger movements but perhaps at the expense of saturation, etc? What are your feelings, Darr?
    I think anytime we need to add or subtract color/light, there is a price to pay for it in the chain somewhere if you look for it. But as Anders points out, it becomes subject dependent.


    I'm torn. The more frugal side of my brain tells me that this back, even at the higher price of $15.5K USD is a great option and would suit me well, going to 400ISO and especially with live view on back.
    There is nothing wrong with being frugal! When I first read about the IQ250, I saw its potential in my work, but felt it was overpriced and soon realized the Sony sensor was the heart of the unit. I then hoped another manufacturer would use the same sensor in their digital back and bring fair competition to the table. I, like many others have felt MFD has been controlled by an oligopoly market structure, dominated by a small number of sellers and manufacturers which naturally reduced the competition and lead to higher prices, so I was delighted when Hasselblad developed the 50c. I actually paid $12k for the back (+$50 shipping), so I am grateful that Hasselblad has IMO made a bold and much needed market uproar with the 50c. I do not see how the MFD market can expect consumers to pay $35k+ for the IQ250, and believe in due time MFD will become more affordable.

    The practical side of my brain tells me that I'd be better served investing in a used H4/5D-50 – as Anders has – so I have the option of using a modern SLR solution when I need it. If I go this way, I have better performance on larger movements and the extra camera platform, but only really 100ISO and must put up with the ground glass on my Techno...
    Decisions, decisions...
    My priorities for the 50c purchase was for Live View (LV) and higher ISO, not extreme movements. If you get the chance to try the LV out, it may change your mind for you. My current projects require me to be on location, and to shoot in a reportage-type style, but with a tripod if necessary. After using the 50c with my tech camera, I told myself this back just needs to be attached to a camera body and never come off, so I recently placed an order for an ALPA TC. I believe in the possibilities of the LV and the CMOS files. Now, I am not using this back to its full potential yet. One link in the chain that is missing is me being able to use Phocus for its full potential. I have not had the time to devote to it, and I know I am missing something not using it.

    Decisions, decisions... FWIW: I am a business woman first, an artist second and a technician after that. I asked myself after I first read about the IQ250 and thought I may be looking at acquiring one: Of all the digital file types I have used and manipulated (CMOS, CCD, Foveon), which digital files came out of my camera the prettiest (the artist)? I was quick to say my D700 files, but surprised because SLR-type cameras are my least favorite (the technician). I probably sold the least used D700 in history, and I regret it every time I look at my D700 files, but knew it had to go from lack of use (the business woman). So maybe you can ask yourself those types of questions and find where the scales need to be balanced.

    Kind regards,
    Darr
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
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  10. #60
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Darr, thanks for posting the comparisons.

    There does seem to be a hue shift in the blue, from the 0 to 15+ shift, but it's a bit hard to tell. It would be interesting to know how easily the 15mm shift and 0 base image combined, i.e. in the sky. The clouds always help in a blend, as a pure blue becomes quite difficult to combine at times.

    I have looked many times at the Voidshatter testing, and each time I look at the 250/40mm rise fall shots, you see a lot of red shift in the blue of the sky, even at the 15mm, and by 25mm it's excessive to me. Where as the 260 seems to hold a much more true blue hue (better than my back does and I own a 260).

    Of course when shifting, the 50MP chip allows a lot more shifting +25mm, before you hit the disc that creates the hard vignette. Where as the 260 shows it much faster and in Voidshatter's testing you can see just how much the STUPID disc damages the shot. This is a problem will all the Rodenstocks.

    It's too bad the rental policy of US dealers makes it so hard to rent such a back, (250 or 150 or credo 50). At least it's never been possible for me with my current set of insurance. I would love to test one of the 50MP backs in the field.

    Paul
    Come to Tallahassee and we'll go out to the NWR that is close by and you can shoot with the 50c till your heart's content. I certainly understand how you feel. I was a bit stressed purchasing the back from an eBay Japanese dealer, but I had a feeling deep inside it was going to be okay.

    I do not have the time at the moment to play with the files, but I will shoot just sky and clouds in the near future with movements and send them to you so you can see for yourself what the potentialities of the files are.

    Kind regards,
    Darr
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Thanks for taking the time to reply, Darr.

    It's a tough decision, for sure. I think 10mm of rise / fall is on the low side of what I need or, to be more specific, I think I'd hit that wall quite often considering how I'm working at the moment and compensating for the shift in format. In an ideal world I'd get a good 15mm and have some room to shift. That's where the decision becomes hard, because although it's not the norm to employ those kind of movements, I know It'd come in handy relatively often. That's where the older 50mpx CCD would come in to it's own, I guess. I'm looking forward to hearing from Anders as to what he thinks of that chip and if he's happy with the overall performance in terms of noise and dynamic range.

    I've done the maths and it seems a excellent plus condition H5D-50 without a lens is approximately the same price as a new CFV-50c at the normal, US / international price. That gives me room to pause, although I'm really, really sold on the CMOS performance within the 10mm of movements. The live view would transform my world, that's for sure. And don't even get me started on how my life would change not having to scan and spot hundreds of high resolution scans each month...

    Anyway, listening to your opinion and that of others, I'm 60% sold on the CFV-50c. Knowledge is power, and just knowing the limits for critical viewing might be enough to sway me in that direction when taken into consideration all the other advantages of CMOS. In the meantime, work is potentially buying a H system very soon that I will have free rein of for personal work. Perhaps they'll buy a H5d-50c that I can put through its paces...

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    I think a 10mm shift would be my limit if the files required purist scrutiny, which is not how I shoot these days.



    I think anytime we need to add or subtract color/light, there is a price to pay for it in the chain somewhere if you look for it. But as Anders points out, it becomes subject dependent.




    There is nothing wrong with being frugal! When I first read about the IQ250, I saw its potential in my work, but felt it was overpriced and soon realized the Sony sensor was the heart of the unit. I then hoped another manufacturer would use the same sensor in their digital back and bring fair competition to the table. I, like many others have felt MFD has been controlled by an oligopoly market structure, dominated by a small number of sellers and manufacturers which naturally reduced the competition and lead to higher prices, so I was delighted when Hasselblad developed the 50c. I actually paid $12k for the back (+$50 shipping), so I am grateful that Hasselblad has IMO made a bold and much needed market uproar with the 50c. I do not see how the MFD market can expect consumers to pay $35k+ for the IQ250, and believe in due time MFD will become more affordable.



    My priorities for the 50c purchase was for Live View (LV) and higher ISO, not extreme movements. If you get the chance to try the LV out, it may change your mind for you. My current projects require me to be on location, and to shoot in a reportage-type style, but with a tripod if necessary. After using the 50c with my tech camera, I told myself this back just needs to be attached to a camera body and never come off, so I recently placed an order for an ALPA TC. I believe in the possibilities of the LV and the CMOS files. Now, I am not using this back to its full potential yet. One link in the chain that is missing is me being able to use Phocus for its full potential. I have not had the time to devote to it, and I know I am missing something not using it.

    Decisions, decisions... FWIW: I am a business woman first, an artist second and a technician after that. I asked myself after I first read about the IQ250 and thought I may be looking at acquiring one: Of all the digital file types I have used and manipulated (CMOS, CCD, Foveon), which digital files came out of my camera the prettiest (the artist)? I was quick to say my D700 files, but surprised because SLR-type cameras are my least favorite (the technician). I probably sold the least used D700 in history, and I regret it every time I look at my D700 files, but knew it had to go from lack of use (the business woman). So maybe you can ask yourself those types of questions and find where the scales need to be balanced.

    Kind regards,
    Darr
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    You can put it this way, with the old CCD you have margins on shift, but not much margin on noise, and with the CMOS it's the other way around. Noise level of the HxD-50 CCD is about the same as my Aptus 75 so I'm used to working with that range. There are sort of three DR levels in medium format, from 2004 to about 2008 not much happened and it is at this level the Kodak 50MP CCD is (it's certainly not a bad level, it's still better than anything Canon has produced for example, but it's not the state of the art either), then Dalsa 6um came with P65+ which was a noticable step forward in DR, then not much happened until Sony CMOS which is yet a noticable step forward. What's noticable when you make extreme pushes in pixelpeep mode is however not the same as what's noticable in a real print of a well-made exposure. It should also be said that Phocus makes automatic noise reduction in a way that makes the CCD look clean (it will kill what's left of color in hard pushes though, I would have preferred user control).

    To me the 49x37mm sensor size suits my lens choice on the wide side much better than 44x33 too. I'm working on a more detailed review of the H4D-50 though which will dive into all these things. It should be said that to me the attractive pricing of second hand Hassy 50MP CCD was a decisive factor too. I got the H4D-50 at a considerably lower price than even the previous Japanese CFV-50c pricing.

    I think both alternatives are good, when you have a camera and know it's strengths and weaknesses you can use in a way that makes it perform at its best. The hard decision is to figure out which combination of strengths and weaknesses that suits you the best.
    Last edited by torger; 8th January 2015 at 00:48.
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Thanks Anders. I guess what you've written pretty much confirms what I already knew, and perhaps reinforces the fact that it's always best to try and make comparisons for yourself before you buy. That's not easily done for myself, although thanks to work I'll be able to do some tests as I'll be responsible for the end purchase decision. It's thanks also to the tests that yourself and Darr make public that I feel pretty well informed, so thanks for all the time you guys put in!

    In many ways, I think if I could afford to do so, the H5D-50c would be the best purchase for me. That would give me the option of an SLR plus use on my Techno. In the real world however, where money does matter, that might be a little bit of a stretch, especially considering I've never seen one on the used make. I haven't used an SLR camera in over five years though, so perhaps I'm over thinking things... That's where the CFV-50c comes in. What a bargain! Makes the competition look, well, stupid money (including the H-50c!)
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Darr, thanks for posting the comparisons.

    There does seem to be a hue shift in the blue, from the 0 to 15+ shift, but it's a bit hard to tell. It would be interesting to know how easily the 15mm shift and 0 base image combined, i.e. in the sky. The clouds always help in a blend, as a pure blue becomes quite difficult to combine at times.

    I have looked many times at the Voidshatter testing, and each time I look at the 250/40mm rise fall shots, you see a lot of red shift in the blue of the sky, even at the 15mm, and by 25mm it's excessive to me. Where as the 260 seems to hold a much more true blue hue (better than my back does and I own a 260).

    Of course when shifting, the 50MP chip allows a lot more shifting +25mm, before you hit the disc that creates the hard vignette. Where as the 260 shows it much faster and in Voidshatter's testing you can see just how much the STUPID disc damages the shot. This is a problem will all the Rodenstocks.

    It's too bad the rental policy of US dealers makes it so hard to rent such a back, (250 or 150 or credo 50). At least it's never been possible for me with my current set of insurance. I would love to test one of the 50MP backs in the field.

    Paul
    Here are some more test shots of the IQ250 blue sky against HR23 color cast correction: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mfmvjpgpn...8HKHBumba?dl=0

    I will upload test shots of the HR40 later.

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    Re: CFV50c Images



    @darr and @voidshatter - many thanks for going to the effort of demonstrating how the CMOS sensor behaves under certain conditions.

    Hasselblad and Phase One (respectively) should buy you a drink (or two, or three) ... and then hang their heads in shame that they are unwilling to spend the time and money (which would both be completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things) getting this sort of data to market themselves.

    Jim
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Brilliant, thanks Voidshatter! Really great to see your tests too and I'm looking forward to some with the 40HR. As an aside, what are the movements relating to each example above? The LCC shot starts to look pretty "colourful" quite quickly, but the smaller resolution, cleaned up images don't look too bad?

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post


    @darr and @voidshatter - many thanks for going to the effort of demonstrating how the CMOS sensor behaves under certain conditions.

    Hasselblad and Phase One (respectively) should buy you a drink (or two, or three) ... and then hang their heads in shame that they are unwilling to spend the time and money (which would both be completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things) getting this sort of data to market themselves.
    I can't speak for Hasselblad, but in the case of Phase One the evaluation of specific use cases for the many many combinations of 3rd party gear is delegated to the dealer network.

    I'm obviously biased, but I think this arrangement of things makes a lot of sense. As an Arca, Cambo, and Phase One A Series dealer we have ready and immediate access to such gear, and specific experience combining it with Phase One backs.

    Accordingly very soon after the announcement of the IQ250 in our Phase One IQ250 Tech Cam Test.

    More importantly we've worked with dozens of photographers to evaluate specific technical combinations (most of which are never refined down to the point of public posting). After all the library test, and Void's excellent tests, show nothing for other uses like macro tabletop. We tested that and found the additional sensor:to:lens distance of focusing close greatly reduced color cast (as you might expect, but which needed verification before suggesting an investment of this magnitude).

    If you're waiting for Phase One itself to post such extensive tests then you misunderstand how the [Phase One + Dealer] ecosystem is meant to function.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 8th January 2015 at 13:29.
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Doug,

    Actually I feel it's fair to say, that if the IQ250 or any of the 50MP versions by Phase or Credo, handled large movements, then a lot more would have been posted, by the dealer community. The DT test, from what I was able to get, was all indoors in very difficult lighting but did cover a very colorful subject. Then there was the merry go round test, I guess that was outdoors. I am surprised personally that only Guy's Credo 50 testing really covered outdoor landscape subject matter, and it was very enlightening.

    If my insurance was willing, I would have been renting a 250 or Credo a ways back, but it won't. As the dealer community for Phase One is quite small in the US and located in only large metropolitan locations, it is indeed unfortunate that one of the dealers can't figure out a way to rent a back as LensRentals.com - Rent Lenses and Cameras from Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony, Leica, and more can on DSLR's.

    The back that Darr is now using really makes the most sense financially, and obviously can produce excellent images equal to the Phase 50MP implementation, but since there is no C1 support and never will be for Hasselblad, that pretty much cuts it for me.

    Paul

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    It would be sensible if both HB and P1 tested their DBs against the current crop of ‘digital’ lenses in Schneider and Rodenstock’s current lens line up (at the time a DB is released). These are the ones against which the DB is most likely to be 'torture tested' via shifting, tilting etc. Currently there are around 24 such lenses. What’s that - 2 a day for 12 days ? I don’t expect them to test against older lenses out of production or 3rd party lenses that can be mounted on a tech cam. Understandably, a line has to be drawn somewhere.

    I understand the Phase One / Dealer ecosystem. Unfortunately for that to work you have to have great dealer. US representation is not representative of the global Phase One dealership network. Elsewhere it's either non-existent, or takes the form of a ‘one man band.’ With respect to the latter - the dealer is simply not going to be able to perform the sort of testing required because: 1) they don’t have the time, and 2) they don't have access to the lenses required.

    This is why - IMO - testing needs to be done locally (Phase One HQ), and the results distributed globally for inspection and discussion.
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    The back that Darr is now using really makes the most sense financially, and obviously can produce excellent images equal to the Phase 50MP implementation, but since there is no C1 support and never will be for Hasselblad, that pretty much cuts it for me.
    I know Anders wrote a converter for Pentax 645Z > IIQ files - maybe he could do the same for HB files ?

    Anders - if you're reading this - I'm sure there would be many folks willing to pay for such a converter (me!) There are gazillions of converters out there for converting one proprietary file format to another (in other areas of computing) - so surely room for one more in the area of digital imaging...

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    After reading Anders detailed post on HB color over on LuLa, it would be interesting to see if something was indeed lost in the translation.

    I totally agree with his conclusion, that CCD can shift, albeit with a significant increase in noise (which can be handled at times with exposure brackets) and CMOS can handle the noise on large movement, albeit at the loss of color fidelity much past 10mm.

    Whenever the next chip comes out, it will be kind of interesting to see how the above conundrum is resolved and at what cost.

    Paul

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    Re: CFV50c Images




    Poinsettia
    Hasselblad 501CM + 150 CFi + CFV-50c + Profoto D1


    I posted this in the 'Fun with MF Images' thread, but felt it should be posted here as well. I just got my hands on a Hasselblad 501CM and 150mm CFi lens and tried it out in the studio. Flawless shooting connection between back and camera (no cables) and focusing is a breeze thanks to the 50c's Focus Confirm feature and a magnifier viewer. I am not replacing my ALPA with the Hasselblad, as I am a tech camera shooter, but I am adding the 501CM for portrait work. I will be shooting the 501CM in the smaller square format for an upcoming black and white portrait project. I almost feel like a young photographer just starting out with my first 'Blad.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Beautiful image Darr. I hope you'll post some of the B&W portrait images here.

    Gary
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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Beautiful image Darr. I hope you'll post some of the B&W portrait images here.

    Gary
    Thank you Gary!
    I will do my best to post images from the project.

    Kind regards,
    Darr
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Darr, looks like you scored. The price has gone back up. see link below:

    ƒƒ‰ƒ‚.com - ƒƒƒ‚ƒƒ–ƒƒƒƒ‰ Hasselblad 3034220 [CFV-50c ƒ‡‚‚ƒƒƒƒ‚]€„–™…”€‘

    Off my list for now. This is around $14.500 US

    Paul

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    As they say, the early bird gets the worm ... At $14,500 I'd pay a little extra and get one from a U.S. dealer with local support.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Hi again, Darr.
    If there's a change that I'd be able to see the raw files and LCC shots for your above test, I'd be immensely grateful. It seems it's going to be very hard for me to demo a CMOS back for quite some time as my local distributor doesn't have a demo unit, just sale units for the next few months. I'd love to look at and process those shots myself to see what they look like.
    TJV

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    All of the Japanese dealers that were listing on Ebay are gone. The price has indeed gone up.

    Victor

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    That's a real bummer, but I'd still be prepared to pay the new going rate if it suits my purposes. I just need to transpose all the movements I do using 6x7cm film to the digital format, plus think about what kinds of stitching I might want to do, to see if the CMOS offers me the flexibility of movement I need. My gut feeling is that if I'm doing single shots, it's perfectly adequate. If I want to stitch to replicate the 6x12cm format I'm used to (with a little bit of perspective control thrown in) it's probably pushing it too far.

    The thing I'm interested in too is how does tilt affect things? Does it magnify the colour problems, or what? If I want to use tilt, do I then have to work within an even small shifting limit?

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    I've transposed the max film movements I tend to use to see how the CMOS might work for me. Again, for single shots with 10mm (digital format) of shift I'm pretty much exactly where I need to be. If I want to match what I get with my Linhof 612PCII, which has 8mm of built in shift I'm quite far out of the safe zone, really...
    What do others think?

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Hi again, Darr.
    If there's a change that I'd be able to see the raw files and LCC shots for your above test, I'd be immensely grateful. It seems it's going to be very hard for me to demo a CMOS back for quite some time as my local distributor doesn't have a demo unit, just sale units for the next few months. I'd love to look at and process those shots myself to see what they look like.
    TJV
    Here is a link to a folder that has the RAW files for the +/-5, +/-10 and +/-15 files. These files will be deleted from the server in the near future so if you want them, please download them now.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Darr,

    Many thanks for the raws. Does Phocus come in a trial version or does it happen to work like C1 which is free as long you are opening a Phase One raw file.

    Paul
    Paul Caldwell
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Many, many thanks, Darr! I'm downloading now and this will be extremely helpful!

    Paul: In terms of Phocus, it's absolutely free to anyone who wants to use it. Just register and download from Hasselblad's website.
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  34. #84
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Darr,

    Many thanks for the raws. Does Phocus come in a trial version or does it happen to work like C1 which is free as long you are opening a Phase One raw file.

    Paul
    Full version is free and you can get it here.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Thanks again, Darr.
    I've had a little bit of time to look at the files and apply the scene calibration on each shot.
    My initial impression is that the files look good, but I will probably need to choose a sensor that allows me to employ more movements. This is pretty gutting to me, because everything else about the package ticks all the boxes and them some... Hmmmmmm... Food for thought.
    How are you finding working within the 10mm of shift limit you mentioned?

  36. #86
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Thanks again, Darr.
    I've had a little bit of time to look at the files and apply the scene calibration on each shot.
    My initial impression is that the files look good, but I will probably need to choose a sensor that allows me to employ more movements. This is pretty gutting to me, because everything else about the package ticks all the boxes and them some... Hmmmmmm... Food for thought.
    How are you finding working within the 10mm of shift limit you mentioned?
    So far it has not been a problem. I do like the color pallet coming out of the back better than my P45. But what works for me, may not work for you. I think to really know if this back would be right for you, you'll have to give it or the IQ250 a test drive.

    It is a shame you cannot test or rent prior to purchase. As Paul stated earlier, it is frustrating we cannot rent digital backs without a ton of hassle or if it is even possible at all. The MFD business is a bit cut throat over sales and this is an example, I mean after all, I can rent a Mercedes or a BMW, but not a digital back. If the MFD business wanted to offer rentals, they would find profit in selling the insurance, but my guess is, it is not profitable enough for them, (or they may loose sales), so they push the sales and upgrade game.

    Good luck with your decision.

    Kind regards,
    Darr
    Last edited by darr; 17th January 2015 at 07:43.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    quick snap out my window; 110mm/f8 on the 205FCC
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    same view, 40mm IF (handheld, was not quite level, so bit o' keystone)
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Hey all,

    Darr, I hope you don't mind me posting these crops. If so, let me know and I'll take them down.

    Just been looking at the edges of the raws after running the scene calibration. I turned off the sharpening tab in Phocus and exported the 10mm and 15mm shots for analysis. I used expired as full resolution, 16bit TIFF files. I've attached a crop of the edges here and am wondering what I'm seeing happening in the brick work on the 006 shot (the 15mm shot) and in the yellow paint on the 004 shot. To explain, it looks like there is some kind of aliasing / mazing happening. Am I right in thinking this? At first, I thought it might be a sharpening problem, which is why I turned it off. Any ideas on what it is and if it's related to any of the known problems when using movements on this CMOS sensor?

    Thanks again Darr for sharing these and if you'd like me to remove the crops, let me know.

    TJV

    PS: Damn, for some reason the forum is downsampling the attachment. Any ideas how to fix this?

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    This time, now also with the DT library test of the IQ250 with 32 HR VS the IQ260 with 32 HR.
    Both the CFV-50c and IQ250 can be seen to exhibit the same artefacts the more movements employed – in both cases starting from about 10mm / 12mm and getting worse the more you dial in. The IQ260 stays comparatively "clean", it seems. Perhaps I'm digging up old ground, here? If so, sorry. It's the first time I've been able to dig into these RAW files and am very grateful to be able to finally do so. If you click on the attachments, you can see them at 100%.

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    This time, now also with the DT library test of the IQ250 with 32 HR VS the IQ260 with 32 HR.
    Both the CFV-50c and IQ250 can be seen to exhibit the same artefacts the more movements employed – in both cases starting from about 10mm / 12mm and getting worse the more you dial in. The IQ260 stays comparatively "clean", it seems. Perhaps I'm digging up old ground, here? If so, sorry. It's the first time I've been able to dig into these RAW files and am very grateful to be able to finally do so. If you click on the attachments, you can see them at 100%.
    The mazing artifact may occur when you shoot with the CMOS back in landscape orientation and do rise/fall movements (or in portrait orientation if you do left/right movements). According to my experience up to date, it may only occur in the blue part in the LCC shot. It could ruin an image for some specific scenes if you are not aware of this issue and shift all the way up to hit the edge of the image circle. I do not observe any issue if the sensor is shifted along the longer edge (e.g. rise/fall in portrait orientation).

    I can confirm that the safe movement for the HR23 is up to 8mm rise/fall on the IQ250 (landscape orientation), otherwise for interior shots some textures (high key or pure color) may get plagued by the mazing artifacts. Such amount of movement is right within the area of a fullframe 645 CMOS sensor, which suggest that the current lens may work if the IQ250/CFV-50C is enlarged to fullframe 645 CMOS sensor without an increase of pixel density. However I expect the current HR wide angles to fail if the fullframe 645 CMOS sensor increases pixel density.

    I need to have my HR40 lens back to do more stress tests in this regard.

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    When the library test was done way back in early 2014, there was mention of some type of strange artifact with the IQ250 and the 60mm XL Schneider.

    Looking at the crops of the Library, the IQ250 crop to me shows some strange artifacts but to me they are common when an image is zoomed into 200% or more. But I need to go back to those files if I still have them.

    What I can't figure out is why the top image shows a definite cut out in the wood trim, follow the head of the white character, not sure if that's an angle or something else. Directly to the right, on the 250 shot, you see an indent in the light trim. Where as on the 260 shot, it's even. That has me stumped as if they are from different parts of the ceiling?

    It's also odd that the 260 shot seems to much cleaner, much cleaner. When I looked at the files, I can remember just the opposite, i.e. the 250 images showed so much more detail in the shadows. I double checked the titles and they clearly point to the 250 on the top, and 260 on the bottom. Can't figure that one out either.

    PS, I have really enjoyed this topic, lots of good info on the 50MP chip.

    Paul

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    rainy day in nyc; 80mm
    Last edited by jlm; 18th January 2015 at 09:11.
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    The think that disturbs me on the IQ250 shot above, which can also be seen on the 50c image in the bricks – although you have to look hard at this size – is the mazing artefacts in what should be flat or relatively flat textures. It's very prominent in the IQ250 shot and it also seems to introduce harsh and very ugly false detail around edges. It's likely that like Voidshatter has said that if you're aware of how and where it presents itself it can be worked around. Very interesting stuff.

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    The mazing is a side effect of crosstalk. What happens is that you have leaks between pixels and since there are two greens and one red and blue in a 2x2 pixel group one green will get most leaks from red and the other from blue, and then the result is that the green pixel values separate even if it's a flat color.

    This makes the demosaicer confused and it can start to produce detail that is not there, and you get mazing.

    The degree of mazing depends on color, a color which is close to the camera's native neutral, ie red and blue levels are about the same, will cause little problems as the crosstalk will then not cause the greens to separate. But a color with a strong blue and weak red component or the other way around will cause mazing earlier on.

    (Lumariver HDR's flatfield correction algorithm will compensate for this and level out the greens in areas of crosstalk, so you don't get any mazing, but you still get desaturation. You can also try RawTherapee with DCB demosaicer and enable green equiliberation and increase it until mazing disappears. If I get the raw test files I can post a demo.)

    Note that the Sony sensor has offset microlenses, which is a trick to get better wide angle performance but it assumes the lens is centered. When shifting it will still help, but if you shift "too far" it will do the opposite and you get a sudden breakdown in performance and you can get mazing. But if you shift a bit less you get better performance in the same area of the image circle where you with the larger shift got worse. The first IQ250 library test posted here was made without that knowledge and therefore shows worse results than you get if you keep within limits.

    Here's a picture showing microlens offset
    http://www.sony.net/Products/di/en-u...e/func_0_3.png
    Last edited by torger; 19th January 2015 at 00:20.

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Thanks Anders.
    It's really interesting to see these results for myself in the RAW files now, that's to some very generous forum members. The CMOS sensor seems to be brilliant at what it does best and with very moderate movements, but for my purpose –, regrettably as I really, really wanted to buy one – it would not give me the flexibility of moments that I regularly use. At this point in time I think the CCD 50mpx Kodak sensor is a winner for me and the H system is priced very well at the moment. It's interesting times in the MF market, for sure.

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    posted elsewhere, but may be useful here as well:
    just finished my L-plate for the V cameras; shown on the 205, but also fits the 500 and the SWC (adapter plate supplied which allows battery to be fitted without the hasselblad battery extender.)

    details:

    camera with L-plate mounts via Arca-style grooves in portrait or landscape mode. also fits RRS clamps (RRS pano clamp shown, but the quick clamps also work).

    clears battery of CFV50-c digital back (also CFV39 and 16);
    allows access to controls of 205 series cameras.
    black anodized aluminum
    index marks show lens centerlines
    clamp is centered over the camera tripod hole for 205 and 500; moved forward to clear battery for the SWC

    in limited production:

    Last edited by jlm; 28th January 2015 at 15:40.
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    It looks great!!

    Would you also show us pictures of the L-plate attaching an SWC?
    I want to know how the battery adapter works.



    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    posted elsewhere, but may be useful here as well:
    just finished my L-plate for the V cameras; shown on the 205, but also fits the 500 and the SWC (adapter plate supplied which allows battery to be fitted without the hasselblad battery extender.)

    details:

    camera with L-plate mounts via Arca-style grooves in portrait or landscape mode. also fits RRS clamps (RRS pano clamp shown, but the quick clamps also work).

    clears battery of CFV50-c digital back (also CFV39 and 16);
    allows access to controls of 205 series cameras.
    black anodized aluminum
    index marks show lens centerlines
    clamp is centered over the camera tripod hole for 205 and 500; moved forward to clear battery for the SWC

    in limited production:
    Last edited by JCL212; 30th January 2015 at 19:54.

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    Re: CFV50c Images

    on the SWC: the existing plate on the SWC gets removed and replaced (same screws) with the stainless steel plate shown. this move everything forward so the battery will clear.







    and the L-plate itself, showing the cutaways (one for anti-rotation when screwed to the camera, one to clear the 205 controls and straps)
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    Re: CFV50c Images

    Thanks John; I cannot wait to get my L-plate!!
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
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