CFV50c Images

[tjv]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Darr.

It's a tough decision, for sure. I think 10mm of rise / fall is on the low side of what I need or, to be more specific, I think I'd hit that wall quite often considering how I'm working at the moment and compensating for the shift in format. In an ideal world I'd get a good 15mm and have some room to shift. That's where the decision becomes hard, because although it's not the norm to employ those kind of movements, I know It'd come in handy relatively often. That's where the older 50mpx CCD would come in to it's own, I guess. I'm looking forward to hearing from Anders as to what he thinks of that chip and if he's happy with the overall performance in terms of noise and dynamic range.

I've done the maths and it seems a excellent plus condition H5D-50 without a lens is approximately the same price as a new CFV-50c at the normal, US / international price. That gives me room to pause, although I'm really, really sold on the CMOS performance within the 10mm of movements. The live view would transform my world, that's for sure. And don't even get me started on how my life would change not having to scan and spot hundreds of high resolution scans each month...

Anyway, listening to your opinion and that of others, I'm 60% sold on the CFV-50c. Knowledge is power, and just knowing the limits for critical viewing might be enough to sway me in that direction when taken into consideration all the other advantages of CMOS. In the meantime, work is potentially buying a H system very soon that I will have free rein of for personal work. Perhaps they'll buy a H5d-50c that I can put through its paces...

I think a 10mm shift would be my limit if the files required purist scrutiny, which is not how I shoot these days.



I think anytime we need to add or subtract color/light, there is a price to pay for it in the chain somewhere if you look for it. But as Anders points out, it becomes subject dependent.




There is nothing wrong with being frugal! When I first read about the IQ250, I saw its potential in my work, but felt it was overpriced and soon realized the Sony sensor was the heart of the unit. I then hoped another manufacturer would use the same sensor in their digital back and bring fair competition to the table. I, like many others have felt MFD has been controlled by an oligopoly market structure, dominated by a small number of sellers and manufacturers which naturally reduced the competition and lead to higher prices, so I was delighted when Hasselblad developed the 50c. I actually paid $12k for the back (+$50 shipping), so I am grateful that Hasselblad has IMO made a bold and much needed market uproar with the 50c. I do not see how the MFD market can expect consumers to pay $35k+ for the IQ250, and believe in due time MFD will become more affordable.



My priorities for the 50c purchase was for Live View (LV) and higher ISO, not extreme movements. If you get the chance to try the LV out, it may change your mind for you. My current projects require me to be on location, and to shoot in a reportage-type style, but with a tripod if necessary. After using the 50c with my tech camera, I told myself this back just needs to be attached to a camera body and never come off, so I recently placed an order for an ALPA TC. I believe in the possibilities of the LV and the CMOS files. Now, I am not using this back to its full potential yet. One link in the chain that is missing is me being able to use Phocus for its full potential. I have not had the time to devote to it, and I know I am missing something not using it.

Decisions, decisions... FWIW: I am a business woman first, an artist second and a technician after that. I asked myself after I first read about the IQ250 and thought I may be looking at acquiring one: Of all the digital file types I have used and manipulated (CMOS, CCD, Foveon), which digital files came out of my camera the prettiest (the artist)? I was quick to say my D700 files, but surprised because SLR-type cameras are my least favorite (the technician). I probably sold the least used D700 in history, and I regret it every time I look at my D700 files, but knew it had to go from lack of use (the business woman). So maybe you can ask yourself those types of questions and find where the scales need to be balanced.

Kind regards,
Darr

 

[torger]

You can put it this way, with the old CCD you have margins on shift, but not much margin on noise, and with the CMOS it's the other way around. Noise level of the HxD-50 CCD is about the same as my Aptus 75 so I'm used to working with that range. There are sort of three DR levels in medium format, from 2004 to about 2008 not much happened and it is at this level the Kodak 50MP CCD is (it's certainly not a bad level, it's still better than anything Canon has produced for example, but it's not the state of the art either), then Dalsa 6um came with P65+ which was a noticable step forward in DR, then not much happened until Sony CMOS which is yet a noticable step forward. What's noticable when you make extreme pushes in pixelpeep mode is however not the same as what's noticable in a real print of a well-made exposure. It should also be said that Phocus makes automatic noise reduction in a way that makes the CCD look clean (it will kill what's left of color in hard pushes though, I would have preferred user control).

To me the 49x37mm sensor size suits my lens choice on the wide side much better than 44x33 too. I'm working on a more detailed review of the H4D-50 though which will dive into all these things. It should be said that to me the attractive pricing of second hand Hassy 50MP CCD was a decisive factor too. I got the H4D-50 at a considerably lower price than even the previous Japanese CFV-50c pricing.

I think both alternatives are good, when you have a camera and know it's strengths and weaknesses you can use in a way that makes it perform at its best. The hard decision is to figure out which combination of strengths and weaknesses that suits you the best.

 

[tjv]

Thanks Anders. I guess what you've written pretty much confirms what I already knew, and perhaps reinforces the fact that it's always best to try and make comparisons for yourself before you buy. That's not easily done for myself, although thanks to work I'll be able to do some tests as I'll be responsible for the end purchase decision. It's thanks also to the tests that yourself and Darr make public that I feel pretty well informed, so thanks for all the time you guys put in!

In many ways, I think if I could afford to do so, the H5D-50c would be the best purchase for me. That would give me the option of an SLR plus use on my Techno. In the real world however, where money does matter, that might be a little bit of a stretch, especially considering I've never seen one on the used make. I haven't used an SLR camera in over five years though, so perhaps I'm over thinking things... That's where the CFV-50c comes in. What a bargain! Makes the competition look, well, stupid money (including the H-50c!)

 

[voidshatter]

Darr, thanks for posting the comparisons.

There does seem to be a hue shift in the blue, from the 0 to 15+ shift, but it's a bit hard to tell. It would be interesting to know how easily the 15mm shift and 0 base image combined, i.e. in the sky. The clouds always help in a blend, as a pure blue becomes quite difficult to combine at times.

I have looked many times at the Voidshatter testing, and each time I look at the 250/40mm rise fall shots, you see a lot of red shift in the blue of the sky, even at the 15mm, and by 25mm it's excessive to me. Where as the 260 seems to hold a much more true blue hue (better than my back does and I own a 260).

Of course when shifting, the 50MP chip allows a lot more shifting +25mm, before you hit the disc that creates the hard vignette. Where as the 260 shows it much faster and in Voidshatter's testing you can see just how much the STUPID disc damages the shot. This is a problem will all the Rodenstocks.

It's too bad the rental policy of US dealers makes it so hard to rent such a back, (250 or 150 or credo 50). At least it's never been possible for me with my current set of insurance. I would love to test one of the 50MP backs in the field.

Paul

Here are some more test shots of the IQ250 blue sky against HR23 color cast correction: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mfmvjpgpnngs3hv/AABBtfXqs6uYZWiU8HKHBumba?dl=0

I will upload test shots of the HR40 later.

 

[f8orbust]

@darr and @voidshatter - many thanks for going to the effort of demonstrating how the CMOS sensor behaves under certain conditions.

Hasselblad and Phase One (respectively) should buy you a drink (or two, or three) ... and then hang their heads in shame that they are unwilling to spend the time and money (which would both be completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things) getting this sort of data to market themselves.

Jim

 

[tjv]

Brilliant, thanks Voidshatter! Really great to see your tests too and I'm looking forward to some with the 40HR. As an aside, what are the movements relating to each example above? The LCC shot starts to look pretty "colourful" quite quickly, but the smaller resolution, cleaned up images don't look too bad?

 

[dougpeterson]

@darr and @voidshatter - many thanks for going to the effort of demonstrating how the CMOS sensor behaves under certain conditions.

Hasselblad and Phase One (respectively) should buy you a drink (or two, or three) ... and then hang their heads in shame that they are unwilling to spend the time and money (which would both be completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things) getting this sort of data to market themselves.

I can't speak for Hasselblad, but in the case of Phase One the evaluation of specific use cases for the many many combinations of 3rd party gear is delegated to the dealer network.

I'm obviously biased, but I think this arrangement of things makes a lot of sense. As an Arca, Cambo, and Phase One A Series dealer we have ready and immediate access to such gear, and specific experience combining it with Phase One backs.

Accordingly very soon after the announcement of the IQ250 in our Phase One IQ250 Tech Cam Test.

More importantly we've worked with dozens of photographers to evaluate specific technical combinations (most of which are never refined down to the point of public posting). After all the library test, and Void's excellent tests, show nothing for other uses like macro tabletop. We tested that and found the additional sensor:to:lens distance of focusing close greatly reduced color cast (as you might expect, but which needed verification before suggesting an investment of this magnitude).

If you're waiting for Phase One itself to post such extensive tests then you misunderstand how the [Phase One + Dealer] ecosystem is meant to function.

 

[Paul2660]

Doug,

Actually I feel it's fair to say, that if the IQ250 or any of the 50MP versions by Phase or Credo, handled large movements, then a lot more would have been posted, by the dealer community. The DT test, from what I was able to get, was all indoors in very difficult lighting but did cover a very colorful subject. Then there was the merry go round test, I guess that was outdoors. I am surprised personally that only Guy's Credo 50 testing really covered outdoor landscape subject matter, and it was very enlightening.

If my insurance was willing, I would have been renting a 250 or Credo a ways back, but it won't. As the dealer community for Phase One is quite small in the US and located in only large metropolitan locations, it is indeed unfortunate that one of the dealers can't figure out a way to rent a back as LensRentals.com - Rent Lenses and Cameras from Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony, Leica, and more can on DSLR's.

The back that Darr is now using really makes the most sense financially, and obviously can produce excellent images equal to the Phase 50MP implementation, but since there is no C1 support and never will be for Hasselblad, that pretty much cuts it for me.

Paul

 

[f8orbust]

It would be sensible if both HB and P1 tested their DBs against the current crop of ‘digital’ lenses in Schneider and Rodenstock’s current lens line up (at the time a DB is released). These are the ones against which the DB is most likely to be 'torture tested' via shifting, tilting etc. Currently there are around 24 such lenses. What’s that - 2 a day for 12 days ? I don’t expect them to test against older lenses out of production or 3rd party lenses that can be mounted on a tech cam. Understandably, a line has to be drawn somewhere.

I understand the Phase One / Dealer ecosystem. Unfortunately for that to work you have to have great dealer. US representation is not representative of the global Phase One dealership network. Elsewhere it's either non-existent, or takes the form of a ‘one man band.’ With respect to the latter - the dealer is simply not going to be able to perform the sort of testing required because: 1) they don’t have the time, and 2) they don't have access to the lenses required.

This is why - IMO - testing needs to be done locally (Phase One HQ), and the results distributed globally for inspection and discussion.

 

[f8orbust]

The back that Darr is now using really makes the most sense financially, and obviously can produce excellent images equal to the Phase 50MP implementation, but since there is no C1 support and never will be for Hasselblad, that pretty much cuts it for me.

I know Anders wrote a converter for Pentax 645Z > IIQ files - maybe he could do the same for HB files ?

Anders - if you're reading this - I'm sure there would be many folks willing to pay for such a converter (me!) There are gazillions of converters out there for converting one proprietary file format to another (in other areas of computing) - so surely room for one more in the area of digital imaging...

 

[Paul2660]

After reading Anders detailed post on HB color over on LuLa, it would be interesting to see if something was indeed lost in the translation.

I totally agree with his conclusion, that CCD can shift, albeit with a significant increase in noise (which can be handled at times with exposure brackets) and CMOS can handle the noise on large movement, albeit at the loss of color fidelity much past 10mm.

Whenever the next chip comes out, it will be kind of interesting to see how the above conundrum is resolved and at what cost.

Paul

 

[darr]

Poinsettia
Hasselblad 501CM + 150 CFi + CFV-50c + Profoto D1

​

I posted this in the 'Fun with MF Images' thread, but felt it should be posted here as well. I just got my hands on a Hasselblad 501CM and 150mm CFi lens and tried it out in the studio. Flawless shooting connection between back and camera (no cables) and focusing is a breeze thanks to the 50c's Focus Confirm feature and a magnifier viewer. I am not replacing my ALPA with the Hasselblad, as I am a tech camera shooter, but I am adding the 501CM for portrait work. I will be shooting the 501CM in the smaller square format for an upcoming black and white portrait project. I almost feel like a young photographer just starting out with my first 'Blad. :chug:

 

[bensonga]

Beautiful image Darr. I hope you'll post some of the B&W portrait images here.

Gary

 

[darr]

Beautiful image Darr. I hope you'll post some of the B&W portrait images here.

Gary

Thank you Gary!
I will do my best to post images from the project.

Kind regards,
Darr

 

[Paul2660]

Darr, looks like you scored. The price has gone back up. see link below:

ヨドãƒ￾ã‚·.com - ãƒ￾ッセルブラッド Hasselblad 3034220 [CFV-50c デジタルãƒ￾ック]ã€￾ç„¡æ–™é…￾é￾”】

Off my list for now. This is around $14.500 US

Paul

 

[GrahamWelland]

As they say, the early bird gets the worm ... :thumbs: At $14,500 I'd pay a little extra and get one from a U.S. dealer with local support.

 

[tjv]

Hi again, Darr.
If there's a change that I'd be able to see the raw files and LCC shots for your above test, I'd be immensely grateful. It seems it's going to be very hard for me to demo a CMOS back for quite some time as my local distributor doesn't have a demo unit, just sale units for the next few months. I'd love to look at and process those shots myself to see what they look like.
TJV

 

[vjbelle]

All of the Japanese dealers that were listing on Ebay are gone. The price has indeed gone up.

Victor

 

[tjv]

That's a real bummer, but I'd still be prepared to pay the new going rate if it suits my purposes. I just need to transpose all the movements I do using 6x7cm film to the digital format, plus think about what kinds of stitching I might want to do, to see if the CMOS offers me the flexibility of movement I need. My gut feeling is that if I'm doing single shots, it's perfectly adequate. If I want to stitch to replicate the 6x12cm format I'm used to (with a little bit of perspective control thrown in) it's probably pushing it too far.

The thing I'm interested in too is how does tilt affect things? Does it magnify the colour problems, or what? If I want to use tilt, do I then have to work within an even small shifting limit?

 

[tjv]

I've transposed the max film movements I tend to use to see how the CMOS might work for me. Again, for single shots with 10mm (digital format) of shift I'm pretty much exactly where I need to be. If I want to match what I get with my Linhof 612PCII, which has 8mm of built in shift I'm quite far out of the safe zone, really...
What do others think?