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Thread: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

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    KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    Recently Wayne posted a very detailed post on how is used a vario-ND fillter and getting good results with LiveView on his IQ180. I read and re-read this post and then ordered the Schneider Vario-ND that Wayne referenced in the post.

    The results were very impressive. Literally for the first time since I have used a CCD back with LiveView outdoors in normal light, I was able to see the screen without any blooming, and zoom in and out and still not bloom. I was able to obtain an excellent focus with LiveView and then confirm it with the LCD on the back.

    WOW, it worked and actually worked very well. The 100% view is a bit noisy, at least on the IQ260, but you can get a good focus solution and it doesn't take a lot of time. This solution totally eliminated the troublesome blooming, once you dial the vairo ND to a dark enough setting.

    A notes:

    1. I used this with great success on both my 40 HR-W and 60mm APO Schneider. I used the CF on the 60mm Schneider as I planned to use it during the shoot.

    2. The CF on the 60mm Schneider has outer threading of 72mm, so I used a 72mm to 77mm setup ring to get to the 77mm diameter the Vario ND needs, and a 67mm to 77mm step ring on the 40mm HR-W. The rings I used were older ones from Kalt and Tiffen and both of these had trouble accepting the rear threads of the Vairo ND 77mm. I believe this will be fixed with a Heliopan brass step up ring.

    3. I was not able to get enough light at F5.6 (widest aperture on the 60XL) with the CF on, so I just moved the switch on the Copol to which totally opens the aperture, then I had no problems.

    4. Even in very bright afternoon light I was able to dial in a ND setting that stopped the blooming and allowed me to zoom in and out without blooming.

    5. The frame rate is still slow, but you can work with it.

    I have to say I was impressed, as this works!!. You can quickly and easily get a focus solution and use tilt and see the effect in Live View on the CCD backs using this setup.

    Once again, thanks to both Wayne for the detailed information and the getdpi forum.

    Paul
    Paul Caldwell
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    www.photosofarkansas.com
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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    When I had my IQ260 I used ND grad 0.9 (3 stops) so that the sun does not bloom severely. It was not convenient as it was not possible to frame the picture unless I install the filter holder first.

    Now with the IQ250 everything is so easy - I can do LiveView directly against the sun without any filters. I can even frame my picture with an ND 3.0 (10 stops) filter in front of my lens under the sun! Super pricise and responsive foccus for night scene and interior with dim light is also possible with the CMOS.

    Phase One has a fullframe CMOS ready (120 MP, perhaps named as IQ3120), but I guess that would be sold for about $60k, and it would make all the current wide angles obsolete. I bet the new Rodenstock wide angles compatible with the IQ3120 would be more retro-focus and more expensive (e.g. $15k each). The upgrade path is too expensive for me so I guess I will be stuck with the IQ250 for years.

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    Great to see it is working for you Paul. I remember my 180 LV and using it a few times before giving up. I would hold ND's in front of the lens and then try and operate the camera (Rm3di at the time) and found it all a bit of a pain.
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    Great to hear again about the vario ND solution. I don't think I would use that instead of my current sliding back though, except in special cases. I would surely have that vario ND in my bag to have the option.

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Phase One has a fullframe CMOS ready (120 MP, perhaps named as IQ3120), but I guess that would be sold for about $60k, and it would make all the current wide angles obsolete. I bet the new Rodenstock wide angles compatible with the IQ3120 would be more retro-focus and more expensive (e.g. $15k each). The upgrade path is too expensive for me so I guess I will be stuck with the IQ250 for years.
    ... this is off topic, but would you care to elaborate on how you know this information? I'm not questioning the possibility, but it'd be good hear more about it.

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Phase One has a fullframe CMOS ready (120 MP, perhaps named as IQ3120), but I guess that would be sold for about $60k, and it would make all the current wide angles obsolete. I bet the new Rodenstock wide angles compatible with the IQ3120 would be more retro-focus and more expensive (e.g. $15k each). The upgrade path is too expensive for me so I guess I will be stuck with the IQ250 for years.
    Off topic indeed, but very interesting subject too :-)

    That would be a serious blow to the tech camera segment. Symmetrical or weak retrofocus lens designs is key to provide something unique.

    On the other hand, strong retrofocus lenses without the need of LCC correction, distortion correction in software, ordinary mirrorless body with focal plane shutter, and much higher costs of entry than today, that is the most likely long-term future as I see it. I don't like it, but every trend has been pointing in that direction. It will be more about pixel peep resolution and less about movements, just like Phase One's series A which has no movements at all.

    For the reason of improved sensitivity photo diodes will at some point move to the surface, just like they already have for the best small sensors. Then wide angle response will as a side effect probably become better than it has ever been, but maybe this will happen too late when symmetrical tech lens ranges has already been discontinued. Once we get those "Otus"-style extreme lens designs I think it will be very hard to go back to traditional designs, so to me this is a bit of a race: what will come first, wide angle response or discontinuation of the current tech lens lines?

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    ... this is off topic, but would you care to elaborate on how you know this information? I'm not questioning the possibility, but it'd be good hear more about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Off topic indeed, but very interesting subject too :-)

    That would be a serious blow to the tech camera segment. Symmetrical or weak retrofocus lens designs is key to provide something unique.

    On the other hand, strong retrofocus lenses without the need of LCC correction, distortion correction in software, ordinary mirrorless body with focal plane shutter, and much higher costs of entry than today, that is the most likely long-term future as I see it. I don't like it, but every trend has been pointing in that direction. It will be more about pixel peep resolution and less about movements, just like Phase One's series A which has no movements at all.

    For the reason of improved sensitivity photo diodes will at some point move to the surface, just like they already have for the best small sensors. Then wide angle response will as a side effect probably become better than it has ever been, but maybe this will happen too late when symmetrical tech lens ranges has already been discontinued. Once we get those "Otus"-style extreme lens designs I think it will be very hard to go back to traditional designs, so to me this is a bit of a race: what will come first, wide angle response or discontinuation of the current tech lens lines?
    A trusted dealer informed me about this. Everything is prototype now so the final product might vary. Phase One choose not to announce it now as it might affect the sales of the current products at this stage. Companies are all about maximizing profit after all.

    Samsung now has the back-illuminated CMOS in APSC size (NX1) and I hope that this technology can get applied in the MFDB products so that we can enjoy less retro-focus wide angles.

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    Such a back is an interesting subject indeed. Considering all the heat I received from the dealer community last year when I suggested a follow on full frame CMOS was coming in 2015! Surely is this back exists Phase One won't keep it under wraps for a another year till 2026?

    I assumed Phase would make 2 backs. One large massive resolution back 100MP or more which is full frame and a 60-80MP full frame back which was designed around tech camera needs. For sure a 120MP would tax all the current tech lenses even the latest from Rodenstock. Personally I can't see Rodenstock bringing out an entire new lens line just for this back but anything is possible.

    Curious also who is the chip company. I don't see this coming from Sony.

    Paul

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    I'm sure Sony won't stop at 44x33. They already the have developed the technology. It is just a matter of making it mature from now on. Canon has been practically exhausting the same technology (and milking us) for ten plus years.

    I expect cmos sensors to grow in physical size and mp count without increasing much in price. So I hope for an 80mp near FF Pentax to sell for $14k anytime soon.
    The bigger sensors will put less strain on legacy glass. Perhaps not able to extract the ultimate micro detail but tonality and contrast will be there to remind us of film large format.

    Eduardo


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Such a back is an interesting subject indeed. Considering all the heat I received from the dealer community last year when I suggested a follow on full frame CMOS was coming in 2015! Surely is this back exists Phase One won't keep it under wraps for a another year till 2026?

    I assumed Phase would make 2 backs. One large massive resolution back 100MP or more which is full frame and a 60-80MP full frame back which was designed around tech camera needs. For sure a 120MP would tax all the current tech lenses even the latest from Rodenstock. Personally I can't see Rodenstock bringing out an entire new lens line just for this back but anything is possible.

    Curious also who is the chip company. I don't see this coming from Sony.

    Paul

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    OK getting back,
    anyone care to re-post the link to Wayne's post on the Live view technique ?
    Can't seem to find it for some reason.

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    I ended up using step up rings to mount the vario ND. 72-77, 67-77, and 62-77. This covers all the lenses I have. It seems the the Scnneider Vario ND Uses course threading and the Heliopan step up rings seemed to work the best.

    Paul.

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    So does the Schneider Vari-ND have something special compared to other (cheaper) variable ND filters ?
    Since you don't need to use the ND filter to actually take the shot (you can remove it after focusing), is there any point having the highest optical quality ?
    The Schneider is quite expensive, and I was thinking perhaps an el-cheapo variable ND could be used instead.

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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    A very logical question and one that I asked myself. For sure the cheaper option is the most prudent. All you really have to do is lower the incoming light. And..... no matter what you will only get close with live view on the CCD backs. If you really want to be in perfect focus then its best to see a 100% pixel view of a shot image of what you want to be in focus on the LCD of the back and if necessary adjust from there..... very easy.

    Victor
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    Re: KUDOS to Wayne Fox--LiveView on a CCD back at last

    The only advantage to using a high quality variND filter is you could use it for shooting if you want to. If you just want to use it for liveView, any of them should work fine.
    wayne
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