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Thread: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

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    Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    I shot two sample test shots and trying to get unpacked and caught up here but I did finally find the P65 shots. The P65 is not a production unit but it is a better unit than I tried two months ago. Thanks to Doug for bringing this along. Several folks really shot a lot of images with it and hopefully they will post them when they get a chance . Okay tech details same body and lens just switched backs . Mirror locked up at ISO 50 at 1/40 and F11 with the 80d. Take out ALL the variables like this. I did WB off the same piece of white snow and processed in C1 at there default levels except I have a very slight base sharpening on which was the same.

    P25 than P65 and I will work on crops later
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Camera at same spot and you can see the extra FF of the P65. As noted before in previous tests there is a slight DR difference and a slight color difference. The P65 has a touch more DR and color is slightly different but of course that can be adjusted either way too
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    This is tough because obviously there is a different magnification here and the P65 does not look as good but you need to actually down rez it to the P25 size to make any meaningful comparison but this just gives you a idea and I am NOT going into all that pixel peeping today. Either back is extremely good and my opinion is this either one get's it done in a big way. Yes the P65 does have more detail , not earth shattering but it is there. To me the P65 worth is it's speed and the sensor Plus technology going into it plus some other things Steve has brought up. yes if i had the money this back makes actually sense to me for those features and going forward those features will be very useful. I'm not here to sell you a P65 by any means and it certainly has it's merit but so does the money in my pocket also have merit. But if you need or want the biggest boat on the lake this is it. I only need to impress clients and my P25 plus does that all day long.
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Now to be more fair of the P65 I down rezed it to the P25 plus size and redid the crop accordingly and as you can see has more detail
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Once again the P25 right next to it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    End of the day and bottom line the P65 Plus has some real meat to chew on.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Howard Cubell
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    To me the P65 worth is it's speed and the sensor Plus technology going into it plus some other things Steve has brought up. yes if i had the money this back makes actually sense to me for those features and going forward those features will be very useful. I'm not here to sell you a P65 by any means and it certainly has it's merit but so does the money in my pocket also have merit. But if you need or want the biggest boat on the lake this is it. I only need to impress clients and my P25 plus does that all day long.
    Two questions I would ask myself, Guy, in evaluating the reasons you mention for upgrading from a P25 or P45 to a P65. First, how do the 15 mp high(er) ISO files at, say, 1600 ISO with the P65 compare with 24mp 1600 ISO files from a D3X? (How many D3X cameras can you buy for the cost of the P65 upgrade?) Second, the P65 sensor is upgradeable. Great. What are the future upgrades? When can you count on them being made?

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Questions I do not have answers for yet. Sensor Plus is NOT installed on this pre-production unit so no word on high ISO . But i look at the second part of it like this a D3x is a completely new system I do not have so what is the cost of it plus the lenses to go with it and frankly a D3x is not a MF that performs at those standards. It maybe a great camera but it will not have anywhere the performance of a MF back and a MF will never be a 8 fps per second DSLR. 2 different animals and 2 two different systems. If one does not have a complete Nikon system which is not cheap either than in a sense having one system do two different tasks is a benefit. Frankly i would never buy a 35mm system to replace my MF system in the first place since it never would compare but as a supplemental system to it than sure I would own one and even thinking about buying one. My upgrade to the P65 is too large in costs for a 45 plus shooter it is obviously less costly. So for me in terms of real dollars maybe 2 separate systems although I still see some value in the P65 even with the cost to upgrade. As far as future upgrades i do not know personally and that remains to be seen but I don't see any upgrades from any sensor either for Hassy, Sinar or Leaf at least Phase says it can be done with this sensor, no one else can claim that with the current backs.
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    in my humble opinion, one has to reach to appreciate the differences. Wouldn't we be better served by a full format back, rather than a denser array of receptors on a cropped sensor? Speaking as a sq format aficiondo, how many of us would love to see that 40mm lens do its thing on a 6x6cm 9 micron sensor

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    in my humble opinion, one has to reach to appreciate the differences. Wouldn't we be better served by a full format back, rather than a denser array of receptors on a cropped sensor? Speaking as a sq format aficiondo, how many of us would love to see that 40mm lens do its thing on a 6x6cm 9 micron sensor
    Agree whole heartedly

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    About 9 micron sensors and their advantages. I owned a P25 and now own a P45+ and comparing the files I don't see the advantages of a 9 micron over my 6.8 micron sensor in my 45+. I assume 9 micron sensors are capable of better high iso output (more photons, etc), yet the high iso on my P25 files is no better than the high iso on my 45+ files (in my opinion). Enlighten me please as to the advantages. I'm considering working out an upgrade to a P65+ and that is down to 6 microns---way smaller than 9 microns. Many thanks! Eleanor

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    in my humble opinion, one has to reach to appreciate the differences. Wouldn't we be better served by a full format back, rather than a denser array of receptors on a cropped sensor? Speaking as a sq format aficiondo, how many of us would love to see that 40mm lens do its thing on a 6x6cm 9 micron sensor

  12. #12
    ddk
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Hi Guy,

    Question for you, more than sharpness I'm interest in the DR of P65 vs you P25+. I'd really appreciate it if you could shoot a couple of extreme DR situations, like shooting outdoors from indoors or from inside a cave and maybe over expose some of the shots by 2-3 stops to see how these backs compare.

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    ok, I'm gonna take heat for this!


    .BUTTTTTTTT

    neither crop at 100% looks sharp

    The downres 65 shows how I see really using the extra MPs... no need for sharpening

    but if I look at these at 100% and I look at the ones I posted, (the 64GB nonsense thread :-) the latter seem sharper (will admit I used default sharpening in C1 v4)

    is that the difference?

    Victor
    Last edited by gogopix; 2nd February 2009 at 16:07.

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Depends on your default settings Victor. Also look at rocks more than tree's . Wind was present. I have a very thin base of sharpening. The DR as we have seen in previous test Jack and i did is about the most 3/4 of a stop over the P25 plus and a 1/3 or so over the P45 Plus. What confuses people on the P25 is it has better local contrast over the 45 and 65 and a little less DR so it crunches slightly which gives the appearance of sharp. It's a great sensor but the end of the day the P45 and P65 resolve more detail. Trust me i would like to have a P45 but the P25 plus is no slouch at all. There NOT huge differences between the backs , it's there and it really comes to play when printing large sizes. Anyone of these three backs are extremely good in reality. Also the P65 Victor is not sized exactly down to the P25 plus there still is the extra FF room present. Folks need to look at the old thread we did because we moved the camera to match the cropping and such. Detail was not something I was really after here , wanted to see how well the color and DR are now that it has some improvements. What we need to see in the production units is noise levels and things like that we could not test in previous pre production units.
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Hi Guy
    Well, I've looked at these and thought about it, and obviously the P65 is the better . . . in terms of both DR and detail.
    It may not be quite as much better than one would imagine, but it's obviously better.

    In which case, the same logic of buying the P25 over the Mamiya is irresistable - you are simply going to have to buy one (and quickly I'd say)

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    LOL i am just waiting to see what the Production unit with sensor plus looks like. I suspect that will be upgraded soon and we can learn more about it's capabilities and upgrade path. But yes the 65 is a sweet heart. It's got the detail no question
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    LOL i am just waiting to see what the Production unit with sensor plus looks like. I suspect that will be upgraded soon and we can learn more about it's capabilities and upgrade path. But yes the 65 is a sweet heart. It's got the detail no question
    Just trying to be helpful

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Guy, thanks for all your hard work in doing this. Sure it's fun .... but it's also work .... and sometimes thankless work at that.

    I think this is an excellent demonstration that defines MF Digital ... making the initial step from 35mm Digital remains the biggest one ... then all the others are incremental improvements. I also think the degree of those increments is dependant on what and how you are shooting.

    I suspect that the prowess of a 60 meg capture will be revealed more obviously when shooting challenging subjects in the studio. For example, I know that many folks can't see a huge difference between my little 16 meg CFV back and my H3D-II/39 when I shoot some scenes around town or like the Dream Cruise car stuff I've posted in the past. However, same subjects shot by both cameras in the studio is an eye opener. It's an even bigger eye popper when using a view camera with APO digitar optics.

    Those that even remotely think that the high meg 35mm DSLR big dogs can run with this pack of Alpha Wolves needs to up the ante when making the comparisons. It's then that the 35mm digital pups reveal themselves as "sheep in wolves clothing." Trust me on this ... I've tried it with my Canon 1DsMKIII and now a Sony 12 bit, 25 megger with Zeiss optics ... when I get my mits on a 14 bit Nikon D3X I'll try that also ... but I already know the answer. Baaa, Baaa, Baaalony.

    My quest is still for a MF multishot ... which to date I've not seen beat by anything available. Obviously, not for applications such as your landscape examples Guy, strictly for controlled studio environments. Horses for courses.

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    Howard Cubell
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Those that even remotely think that the high meg 35mm DSLR big dogs can run with this pack of Alpha Wolves needs to up the ante when making the comparisons. It's then that the 35mm digital pups reveal themselves as "sheep in wolves clothing." Trust me on this ... I've tried it with my Canon 1DsMKIII and now a Sony 12 bit, 25 megger with Zeiss optics ... when I get my mits on a 14 bit Nikon D3X I'll try that also ... but I already know the answer. Baaa, Baaa, Baaalony.

    My quest is still for a MF multishot ... which to date I've not seen beat by anything available. Obviously, not for applications such as your landscape examples Guy, strictly for controlled studio environments. Horses for courses.
    I, at least ,was not suggesting that the the 60mp files from the P65 at base ISO would not offer real, tangible advantages in terms of resolution over a D3X. Phase has stated that the resolution advantages of the P65 over the P45 are relatively modest and not the "real" justification for upgrading. To Phase, the "real" benefits are the ability to shoot cleaner higher ISO files at 15mp, along with future, but yet to be identified, upgrades in the sensor. It is there where I feel the big fallacy lies. I have little doubt that a 15mp file from a P65 at 1600 ISO will fare poorly compared to a 24mp file from a D3X at 1600 ISO. I don't shoot at anything other base ISO and do not even own a DSLR, but if I wanted to shoot at high ISO (and I would presumably also want world class AF to go with it), I would get myself a D3X for the 1/3 the price of the upgrade from a P45 to a P65. (And get a gorgeous LCD thrown in as well.)

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    I don't understand this statement by Phase that the resolution of the 65+ over the 45+ is not a good reason for upgrading. To me the iso 1600 at 15 mg.pixels is a joke for me personally at this upgrade price point and is not even a consideration for a upgrade. I have a 45+ and find the increased resolution a very good reason to upgrade as I do landscape work with lots of very fine detail which can always benefit by very fine resolution. I'm also interested is the prospect of having less color cast in the P65+ files along with a slight increase in dynamic range. A clean iso 400 at 30 megapixels is definitely an attraction to me but not 15 at 1600iso. Just my personal opinions. Eleanor

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    I, at least ,was not suggesting that the the 60mp files from the P65 at base ISO would not offer real, tangible advantages in terms of resolution over a D3X. Phase has stated that the resolution advantages of the P65 over the P45 are relatively modest and not the "real" justification for upgrading. To Phase, the "real" benefits are the ability to shoot cleaner higher ISO files at 15mp, along with future, but yet to be identified, upgrades in the sensor. It is there where I feel the big fallacy lies. I have little doubt that a 15mp file from a P65 at 1600 ISO will fare poorly compared to a 24mp file from a D3X at 1600 ISO. I don't shoot at anything other base ISO and do not even own a DSLR, but if I wanted to shoot at high ISO (and I would presumably also want world class AF to go with it), I would get myself a D3X for the 1/3 the price of the upgrade from a P45 to a P65. (And get a gorgeous LCD thrown in as well.)

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Yea but than you have another system which on one hand is good and on the other a pain. What we need or at least i do is a 40 meg sensor with sensor plus at a lower cost. Now that would swing my money over. But your point is well taken and once again that darn balancing act we have to do
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    The increase in resolution is there over the P45 plus yes it is not a major jump up but it is there. FF is another for the wide shooter although it is not much but again it is there. I do agree Eleanor 30 mpx at 1600 would be much better option. That is something I could use. I do events sometimes and ISO 800 is the norm and yes i should maybe have the D3 or something but I do like shooting MF for it and it get's the use i paid for it. I do want to get my money out of this system and if the sensor plus gives me some advantage than I do like that technology. I just hate thinking about buying another system when this one works so well for most of my work. It's like a system you have that your not crazy about to begin with. No offense against Nikon or Canon but i just want to get away from 35mm if I can
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    I, at least ,was not suggesting that the the 60mp files from the P65 at base ISO would not offer real, tangible advantages in terms of resolution over a D3X. Phase has stated that the resolution advantages of the P65 over the P45 are relatively modest and not the "real" justification for upgrading. To Phase, the "real" benefits are the ability to shoot cleaner higher ISO files at 15mp, along with future, but yet to be identified, upgrades in the sensor. It is there where I feel the big fallacy lies. I have little doubt that a 15mp file from a P65 at 1600 ISO will fare poorly compared to a 24mp file from a D3X at 1600 ISO. I don't shoot at anything other base ISO and do not even own a DSLR, but if I wanted to shoot at high ISO (and I would presumably also want world class AF to go with it), I would get myself a D3X for the 1/3 the price of the upgrade from a P45 to a P65. (And get a gorgeous LCD thrown in as well.)
    Well, points well taken ... but I don't think the D3X is the high meg machine to use as a comparison since it's pretty much topping out at 1600.

    Question I have is how much of the near 645 FF 60 meg sensor are you using when set to 15 meg? What's the crop factor, if any?

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, points well taken ... but I don't think the D3X is the high meg machine to use as a comparison since it's pretty much topping out at 1600.

    Question I have is how much of the near 645 FF 60 meg sensor are you using when set to 15 meg? What's the crop factor, if any?
    It's still full-frame, but they've "combined" 4 pixels for 1 -- so IOW, you get a single 12 micron pixel at ISO 1600 instead of 4 @ 6 micron. Clever idea, and I am wondering how well it works over simply downrezzing an ISO 1600 P45+ (6.8 micron) file to similar size, which also reduces perceived noise considerably...
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    In my opinion, Phase is going to have come to terms with P65+ upgrade pricing in the near future. Although I'm certain the company wants to recoup its investment in developing its newest technology, the market is very different than when the P65+ product development cycle began. Although there will be some early adopters who will flock to the latest technology, the state of the economy is going to influence the rate of upgrades.

    Many that might have chased the next, inevitable upgrade are most likely prioritizing their spending more carefully ... upgrading when a feature set is more clearly met. Especially if the price for the upgrade is a steep one for Sensor + specs that have yet to be released. With the deals available on the purchase of a new P45+ back, it appears as if Phase is trying to generate more revenue/sales. MIght it be because P65+ orders are currently luke-warm?

    Kurt

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It's still full-frame, but they've "combined" 4 pixels for 1 -- so IOW, you get a single 12 micron pixel at ISO 1600 instead of 4 @ 6 micron. Clever idea, and I am wondering how well it works over simply downrezzing an ISO 1600 P45+ (6.8 micron) file to similar size, which also reduces perceived noise considerably...
    Downrezzing could produce similar results if they used a quadrature algorithm rather than bicubic.
    Perhaps there is a quadrature down-rez plug-in available from someone especially for noise reduction? I bet equivalent results could be had if the downrez could be done at the raw level before color interpolation occurs.
    Sandy?...
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  27. #27
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The increase in resolution is there over the P45 plus yes it is not a major jump up but it is there. FF is another for the wide shooter although it is not much but again it is there. I do agree Eleanor 30 mpx at 1600 would be much better option. That is something I could use. I do events sometimes and ISO 800 is the norm and yes i should maybe have the D3 or something but I do like shooting MF for it and it get's the use i paid for it. I do want to get my money out of this system and if the sensor plus gives me some advantage than I do like that technology. I just hate thinking about buying another system when this one works so well for most of my work. It's like a system you have that your not crazy about to begin with. No offense against Nikon or Canon but i just want to get away from 35mm if I can
    Guy, I have never shot with a DSLR. I have never been tempted. I went directly from MF film with a Pentax 67 and a Horseman 612 to an H3D-39. For what I do, slow, carefully composed landscape work at low ISO on a tripod for larger prints(30"x36" is the target size), the H3D-39 works very well. I like the style of shooting it offers with an amazingly bright and large viewfinder over the video camera like experience of a DSLR with 500,000 custom options, menu upon menu and 9 FPS. However, I must say that I am intrigued by the reports I read about the performance of the D3X. Nikon seems to have done some remarkable work with it. I really would like to borrow/rent one to shoot side-by-side in a real world shooting environment alongside the H3D-39 and make some large prints. I have no vested interest in any of this equipment or the people who make it. These are tools.

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It's still full-frame, but they've "combined" 4 pixels for 1 -- so IOW, you get a single 12 micron pixel at ISO 1600 instead of 4 @ 6 micron. Clever idea, and I am wondering how well it works over simply downrezzing an ISO 1600 P45+ (6.8 micron) file to similar size, which also reduces perceived noise considerably...
    LOVE to see that! Very innovative if it works like the 10 micron "magic" backs.

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It's still full-frame, but they've "combined" 4 pixels for 1 -- so IOW, you get a single 12 micron pixel at ISO 1600 instead of 4 @ 6 micron. Clever idea, and I am wondering how well it works over simply downrezzing an ISO 1600 P45+ (6.8 micron) file to similar size, which also reduces perceived noise considerably...
    Our tests show that the latter produces higher IQ at a given size output but there might be some other pluses to shooting a smaller file.
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    In my opinion, Phase is going to have come to terms with P65+ upgrade pricing in the near future. Although I'm certain the company wants to recoup its investment in developing its newest technology, the market is very different than when the P65+ product development cycle began. Although there will be some early adopters who will flock to the latest technology, the state of the economy is going to influence the rate of upgrades.

    Many that might have chased the next, inevitable upgrade are most likely prioritizing their spending more carefully ... upgrading when a feature set is more clearly met. Especially if the price for the upgrade is a steep one for Sensor + specs that have yet to be released. With the deals available on the purchase of a new P45+ back, it appears as if Phase is trying to generate more revenue/sales. MIght it be because P65+ orders are currently luke-warm?

    Kurt

    Actually P65+ sales have been very good. The price range that is under the most distress currently is the $20K - $30K range, which is why we have boosted the value of that purchase significantly with the free lens(s) offer.


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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorbrown View Post
    I don't understand this statement by Phase that the resolution of the 65+ over the 45+ is not a good reason for upgrading. To me the iso 1600 at 15 mg.pixels is a joke for me personally at this upgrade price point and is not even a consideration for a upgrade. I have a 45+ and find the increased resolution a very good reason to upgrade as I do landscape work with lots of very fine detail which can always benefit by very fine resolution. I'm also interested is the prospect of having less color cast in the P65+ files along with a slight increase in dynamic range. A clean iso 400 at 30 megapixels is definitely an attraction to me but not 15 at 1600iso. Just my personal opinions. Eleanor
    Eleanor,

    I suspect (but don't know and do not have any inside info) that the reason Phase makes that statement is that for the most part modern sensors are now lens limited.

    In the case of your 6.8u P45+ sensor, most of the current AF lenses from Mamiya or Hasselblad H will meet or exceed the demands of the central 2/3rds of the sensor at least stopped down a bit, and a few will render corner to corner. The best of the older Mamiya or Hassy MF lenses often only barely render that level in the center. However, drop from a 6.8 u to 6 u pixel pitch, and you've likely just exceeded what a large portion of even the newer AF lenses can deliver; some can still deliver for sure, but I suspect that is two or three from each manufacturer.

    Fortunately the latest digital lenses from Schneider (Digitars) and Rodenstock (HRs) are exceptional, and I suspect will deliver in spades to the 6u sensors, and also suspect the most demanding photographers will use the P65+ predominantly on a tech camera that utilizes that glass. In that vein, the P65+ will deliver the best image possible, and yet still fully capable of being used on a contemporary MF body giving it broad appeal to that group.

    Final issue is defacto CoC. As we go down in pixel pitch, we can print larger prints from the same sized sensor, but if our viewing distance remains unchanged -- which it seems is the case nowadays -- then we lose visible DoF in the larger print...

    From a strictly personal point of view, their are two more issues with the upgrade: First my finances dictate I am *not* an upgrade candidate, at least for this year. Second, I do actually make exposures longer than one minute on a fairly regular basis; I enjoy shooting in early pre-dawn or post-sunset light, and these exposures can regularly go to 2 or 3 minutes at f16 at ISO 50 or 100 -- and in fact, this is the main reason I originally chose a Phase back over the other options.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I bet equivalent results could be had if the downrez could be done at the raw level before color interpolation occurs.
    -bob
    A single-shot "true colour" back?
    Now that would be impressive

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Our tests show that the latter produces higher IQ at a given size output but there might be some other pluses to shooting a smaller file.
    Fortunately this will be very easy to test once Sensor+ enabled backs are shipping. We'll just shoot it at full res, and then shoot it at 15mp and compare various downsizing techniques to downrez the larger file and compare the two.

    I've heard good things from R+D at P1, but until it's in my hands...

    FYI: Phase itself was largely responsible for (and holds the patents on) the technology that distinguishes the P65+ chip from other current sensors. This is P1 IP rather than Dalsa IP.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorbrown View Post
    A clean iso 400 at 30 megapixels is definitely an attraction to me but not 15 at 1600iso. Just my personal opinions. Eleanor
    I would strongly anticipate stellar performance of the P65+ when shot at ISO 400, processed in C1 with modest Color Noise reduction settings, and downrezed in post to 30 megapixels. I'll wait to do the test myself before saying it for sure. But if you look at what the P45+ already does when sized to 30 megapixels at ISO400 then odds are in the P65+s favor.

    Then again, maybe you mean "clean" as in "fully free from any noise". It's just my opinion, but the "noise" produced by a P1 back processed in C1 with zero luminance noise reduction is, at anything but the highest ISO offered, a very pleasing film-like grain which does not detract from the image.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: Phase P25 vs the Phase 65 Plus backs

    Ain't no such thing as no noise, ever.
    It is just not noticeable noise, or maybe pleasing noise, or mayve annoying noise.
    That would be a signal to noise ratio of infinity (BOGGLE)
    if the signal to noise ratio is limited to some limit less than infinity and if the signal need be above zero for it to be useful, then we might be led to say that without noise, there is probably no signal, if you get my drift.
    Hell Tri-X ain't Tri-x without noise. We buy it BECAUSE the noise is pleasing
    -bob

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